Posted by
Angsana
15 yrs ago
I am sitting here and I am feeling very stressed out because my husband has asked me to terminate our maid. I know he's right, but I don't really want to get into a confrontation with her and well, I just don't need the grief. In a nutshell she doesn't have a lot to do (cleaning and laundry) and she does that at a pretty low standard. After 14 years as a maid and 9 months with us I have to remind her daily to not put colours in the white wash, use hot water to wash up, not use the water in the bucket to clean the kitchen at night that you used that morning to clean the house with and don't mop when I'm walking around with the baby. Basically she's in a dreamworld and after telling her something it's gone the next second. On top of this she is undermining my parenting. She's obsessed with my baby and I daily have to tell her to back off. She's also nosey to the point of rude. Anyway I suppose the reason why I am feeling guilty is that I do feel that we are pretty intolerant of a job well not well done plus she is a nice person. However my husband and I argue constantly over her (e.g. last night I was asleep and he woke me up telling her off for using an inch deep of cold, dirty water to wash the dinner dishes with) and he then gets on my case about her. I've had a really tough 18-months with nearly losing my baby and then the follow ups I had to have with him (he's fine now ;) and I just don't need the agro of it all.
Do some people just not do well with any helper! I think so and I think that's us.
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Tell your husband to do it - or is he too scared??
If it isn't working out and you have done your best with her, then it is time to part.
It is not easy to release her and for some people/employers a very stressful experience.
So, if your husband thinks it is time to go then he does the dirty work. Not you.
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KoMo
15 yrs ago
To be honest it sounds like having her is causing more stress than what stress would be caused by letting her go. A helper is suppose to make life easier, not stress you out and cause conflict between family members. Don't feel like you are being too harsh, if you have certain standards you expect (and everyone has different levels so try not to compare) and she doesn't meet them, then basically she doesn't fit your family or your home - that doesn't make her or you right or wrong. From your post it sounds like your not happy so I would basically say to her that you appreciate her help to date but you just don't feel like things are working out. I would pay her one months wage and let her go on the day (not sure if you have work commitments, but if feasible I would recommend this). That way you have made your break and try to restore the household to the way you want it, plus avoid any further stress.
Regarding whether you should or shouldn't get another helper?? Unfortunately that is something you can only answer. Unfortunately there are some not so helpful (or even worst, untrustworthy) helpers out there, but I do truly believe that majority are good and good hearted, so try not to be tainted by one bad experience. Personally, I have two young children (aged 2 and 8 months) and we had what we believed a good helper for 12 months upto CNY this year. Although things she did (or the way she did them) often bothered me, and I often complained of her to my husband, she was helpful. But when we returned from a holiday our helper told us her father passed away. We immediately bought her a return ticket home, but within a few days got a phone call to say she wasn't returning. We have since found out that she lied to us about her fathers passing and also found a sting of deceptive lies and other surprises since her departure. I have since been without a helper (besides one visit a week from Merry Maids for 4 hours) for around 2 months, and to be honest love it. I love having my own space, routine with the two kids, cooking and cleaning the way I prefer. But we did decide to hire a new one, for one main reason. So we can have a social life (we enjoy putting the munckins to bed and once a week will head out for a nice dinner or movie). So we are keen to let the past be the past and enjoy having the help and support again. But, we have learnt from our first helper and things that we might manage differently.
Good luck with your decision and managing the current situation. I know it is an extremely difficult decision, but remember, if you are organised, you can let her go and she can be out of your hair within an hour or two, just have salary and air ticket ready (and would recommend a bit of extra cash so she can organis accommodation etc). So although it can be a stressful situation, it can be short lived.
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angsana, i sense you know that she needs to be fired, but you are afraid of the firing itself.
let me tell you from experience of having to fire people at work too: nobody likes to do this, but sometimes it has to be done for the better of both parties. it's never an easy task, but good preparation helps.
lay out the reasons for yourself like A, B, C and then the conditions for her release. prepare everything so you can let her go right away after the talk without delay (i.e. she packs up her stuff, ticket is booked, and out of your home)
once everything is ready, sit her down properly (ideally with a witness with you), lay down the points and get it over with. do not negotiate on the laying off itself (i.e. take her back under some conditions, etc.). only negotiation should be on the conditions of release (ticket back to phils includes what? anything you give her in addition, etc.).
btw, laying someone off might not be a pleasant experience, but if you do it well, it can be very satisfying for both sides as respect is paid on both sides. i laid off some people and still remain on best terms with them until today, because we both understood the reasons why the employment was terminated.
good luck
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It's true what Cookie says... the termination doesn't have to be painful.
Just try to remain friendly and fair - you don't have to go into details, you can just say - it's not working out.
Of course, she may ask loads of questions and may make things difficult herself but I also second what other people have said - you are making yourself suffer MORE by keeping her.
I have a small daughter and another on the way. I've now learnt that I will go through however many helpers it takes until I find the perfect match. It may mean trying and firing quite a few people, but if I'm going to be hiring someone to take care of my children and my family for at least the next ten years, then it's worth to put in the effort now and find the right person for your family.
Good luck!
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Having a helper is meant to make life easier not more stressful,she may be nice but she will not change(not after 14 years)give her a warning letter and see if things improve.My husband leaves the household for me to run,(his work is stressful enough)but anything serious he would deal with.
It sounds like you have had a lot to deal with,with your baby(bless)did you recover fully yourself after the birth?(sends hormones all over the place,I should know having 6 children myself)
Arguing over the helper is bad news for you(done it myself)you need to work together,even if you dont agree with your husband you need to support him and him you.Good luck
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She's been a helper for 14 years, right? It sounds to me like she's actually trying to get herself fired, receive the one month's extra pay and cash in on the free ticket home. Sorry to be so blunt but anyone who's been at it for 14 years can't be that clued out.
If you want to give her the benefit of the doubt, then there is something so deeply troubling her that she can't focus on a simple request like using hot water for washing the dishes. If that's the case, again, perhaps she's better off going home and resolving the problem.
Either way it sounds like everyone will be better off if you terminate her. I hope that helps you to feel better about something that is normally very stressful but in Hong Kong, is becoming more and more prevalent and commonplace.
As for the actual termination, the person who is officially the employer should do the terminating as I know a friend whose helper refused to leave when she was terminated, stating Sir was the real employer and Ma'am had no authority to terminate!
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Just want to let you know you are not alone. I ask myself the same question every once in a while. "Am I better off not having a full time helper?" My husband and I like our privacy and as much as we appreciate our helper's help, we do not enjoy some of her behavior...like occasionally passing gas or burbing loudly, leaving her bathroom door (her room is in the kitchen) open when peeing, sucking her teeth after meals, going through our mails, snooping around...and most of all, undermining my parenting . My kids ask me why she slithers and sucks her teeth all the time. She was offended when I asked her not to do those things and eventually I figure that she is here to help us with housework, I can't really ask her to change who she is and I focus on how she makes my life easier. However, I am not sure I will renew her contract.
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Hi Visitor,
Yes, hiring a helper is not just about whether they can do a great job. You need to find someone that you think you could live with! I always consider this point when interviewing - can I live with this person or would they irritate me? hahahaha. It's very very tough, but if you find the right match, then everyone - including the helper - will be happy.
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lalib
15 yrs ago
I like the first response to the OP - "tell your husband to do it"
It can't be easy to let a DH go for whatever reason.
To help matters (if I could afford it) I would give her a nice payment and tell her its not working out.
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Angsana,
I'm in the same boat as you. My wife has asked me to term our present helper (similar issues, only have had her around for about 6 months though). I found myself stressing too. But reality is, I'm going to prepare myself, put the terms together is writing and do it in a respectful way. I definitely like the idea of having a 3rd party witness. Stay cool and oh by the way, rent "Up in the Air" if you haven't seen it already ;)
(*movie is based off of a guy who fires people for a living).....
At the end of the day, stay focused on how liberated you will be after the fact.
Best regards...
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Why not both of you sit down and terminate her? She does sound like she's pushing her luck and once it's done I'm sure you and your husband can start to agree on what you want from your (potentially?) new helper.
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Hi Angasana, the helper I had before my current lovely helper was a nightmare. I debated for 2 months wether to terminate her or not as I was able to see that she was doing her best in "her" standard which was nothing more than double work for me( had to redo all the housework chasing after her) with a 1 month old new born. She was in dreamland as well and she also talked back, gagged to take care of the newborn with long fingernails and it was just agony. I shelled up in my room with the newborn for most of the day and we took delivery as I was too scared to bump into her in the kitchen. Still since I knew that she was working for her daughter's education fee, I just could not terminate her.
One day, my friend who has a super helper invited me over to her house to "rest" and have a great home made meal and that day was the end of my agony, it made my head clear why we hire helpers. My friend also told me that there is someone looking for a job so just meet her(my current helper)
Also, my husband an I were always arguing about the helper, his point was that i am expecting too much vs. me- you are not here to witness her work and you don't know because I redo the whole thing,and in the end it would progress to the point where it became about our relationship and she just had negative effect over the household.
The night I went to my friends' house, I told my husband, I am going to tell her tomorrow that I will terminate her in 2 weeks time + she can stay at our house for the following week and in the meantime, she has to do nothing at all in the house, just do not bother us, and I did it.
I am really glad that I did it. Now, I am so happy with our helper, the whole family is just so happy and cheerful with her.
I understand your dilemma but, I believe that there is going to be a better match for you, it's person to person so, I guess finding someone that you get on is really important like when you met your husband, something must have been different. Helpers also can perform well if they are on good terms with their employers. And most important, after all those horror stories you hear and after experiencing it, it's really essential to tell yourself, fresh eye, fresh eye. I was surprised at how much my eyes had become unclear but, again, my current helper had the power to let me know that not everyone is the same.
Good Luck!!
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Simon Cowell is getting 'fed up' of doing American Idol, maybe he could come to the East to start A Grand F*rting contest, that would be different.
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orangeman... wherever did you get peice of info about "Indian culture" ??? someone's been pulling a fast one OR are you pulling one on us :)
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i could tell what makes you stress. firing a helper of 14 years means dollars to your helper. she wants you to fire her so she can get a long service payment. if she resigns then she will get nothing. is paying her a long service pay a problem?
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Back to the original thread, your helper does not sound very good or sensible, plus has habits which annoy, so pluck up courage, get together with your husband and both tell her she is not suitable for your needs, and find another helper who is preferably recommended by somebody you know. It is no good getting stressed with each other.
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anna_b: The maid has only been with the OP for 9 months hence no long service pay.
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oh okay i misread the OP's story.
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Hi Angasana - saw your post, and wondering if I might be able to help out.
We went throught 3 changes of maids over 2 months before we found our first one ( to look after a newborn). As you need to have trust in someone to look after your household, its critical to have the right chemistry.
Right now, due to changes in family circumstances (our babies have grown up and will both be attending primary school in Fall 2010) mean that we will be downsizing from two maids to one.
Our second maid, Florida has provided very good service and we are keen that she is suitably placed with another HK based family.
Please contact me by return if you want more info - we are about to place a general blurb in the classified, but thought that this might help if you are looking at some options.
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orangeman
"In the Philippines they don't have that gesture, but it is common that the 'receiver' answers the gas thing by counter gassing."
Where did you get that this is a "common" gesture in the Philippines?
Could this be because they are friends having fun?
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Orangeman must be new to Asia if he believed those things ;-)
I think every employer-helper relationship is unique. Some get irritated if their helpers express their opinions, some don't mind it. Some get irritated by some habits, some don't. It's just a matter of finding one that matches your needs. Same for the helpers too. They have to find employers that agree with their ways too.
Having said that, you can never find a "perfect" helper because even we ourselves are not perfect. We all have to weigh up whether or not we can live with the other person for the next 1-2 years. It's like dating as well. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. No one's at fault.
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Don't everyone agree with GemmaW? Amen to that.
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Wise words from GemmaW.
We're in cara's situation as well. One helper and now her husband. Couldn't be happier. The point, I guess, is that there are amazing helpers out there.
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Hi Dadda,
Hope your father is feeling better now, and I am really sorry to hear about your very devious helper, it is a shame you didn't record the conversation, when she admitted getting loans she never intended to pay back, that is fraud, and maybe the police here could have done something about that, to prevent her coming back to Hong Kong.
Make sure you keep the original papers of the debt collectors, only give them a copy, and it might be worth sending copies to Immigration and her consulate. Good luck, and hope she pays for her nasty devious ways.
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dnn
15 yrs ago
dadda -- very sorry to hear about the situation with your selfish, horrible helper. detestable behaviour, and completely irresponsible. perhaps the best medicine for that helper would be for you NOT to terminate her employment, thereby forcing her to stay in HK and face the music, or pay YOU one month's salary in lieu of notice if she wants to duck out early. agree with Susie1, save whatever evidence you have to provide to the authorities and debt collectors.
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dadda, this is surely totally illegal and in addition to the other suggestions posted by dnn and Susie1 I would also be inclined to call the police and ask them their opinion on the matter....you must have a copy of her passport so she shouldn't be able to leave if they become involved early enough../once she's gone that's it but I doubt the debt collectors will go away that easily and they have your address and numbers no doubt....
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Yes Dadda, I totally agree with you, I think they learn it from other rogue streetwise helpers, either that or it is a bad in-breeding streak in them, they definately are experts at knowing how to screw the system and their employers.
I think using 'the going to church excuse' for going out and borrowing money fraudulently is despicable, makes you wonder if they really do believe in God.
Local helpers are available, and you don't have to have them living in your home, plus they are less likely to be a hastle, because if they fall foul of the law they have nowwhere to go to, they are less likely to steal, get in bad debt,
It would be nice if there was a foolproof way of keeping the bad ones from leaving their home countries and coming back here under a different identity, maybe HK Imm should introduce a finger print system to stop any helper who has got into trouble here from returning, they wouldn't dare behave like this in some of the stricter Arab countries,
Some people are just happy to have a job, to help their families back home, why can't they all be like that, nice and honest.
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dnn
15 yrs ago
it's quite true that many helpers are far from naive, and many seem to be expertly able to calculate exactly what they can get away with.
a small comfort to know that whilst going back home for a quick identity change used to be a quite common tactic for some sneaky helpers in the past, these days i believe immigration does in fact keep fingerprints on file together with the helper's HKID card. so, even if a helper does change her name or other identity details, her fingerprints will help HK immigration keep matters clear regarding who's who.
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We've been in a similar position to the OP, having a helper with masses of experience, 18 years in HK and ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE how to be a helper!
A month ago we terminated her (after countless warnings to shape up) and we are now helper-less but far from helpless! Life is so much less stressful with no helper than with a bad one! Our 1st helper was awesome but she left us to go be a full time mum to her son...we miss her!
We were very accommodating to our last helper and much sweeter than many employers, giving her the CNY holidays off with pay even though she'd only been with us for 2 weeks at the time and when she was all mopey and sullen even asked her what we could do to make her happier in her job to which she replied, 'just let me do things the way I want'....we thought she was kidding....she was not!!
We're also now hunting for a new helper but it's not so easy. Perhaps 4 out of 10 even bother to come to the interview as agreed and all of this time wasting is no fun for us when we have a 3 year old and a 2½ month old to look after at the same time.
We offered the job to someone who then a week later told us she wasn't going to take it after all and it's all just so tiresome!
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the only suggestion I can make is:
DONT TRY TO HIRE A HELPER YOURSELF.
decades of experience in this job mean nothing. It only means that you've got a good chance of hiring someone who is quite set in their ways.
Think about what you want from your employee, then go to a good agency and let them narrow down the selection based on these requirements. If they can't do that for you turn around and leave, they're not professional.
Most useful tip so far: Hire someone who currently works in SG. For the helper it's usually a 100% payrise to come to HK with four times the days off - so you will have a very happy employee that's willing to do whatever you need done exactly the way you want it done, all to keep earning that high HK salary.
And, if for some reason it doesn't work out you get a replacement for free, only legal fees to be paid again.
www.overseas.com.hk was absolutely phantastic, and so is our helper that we hired through them last year
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Ed
15 yrs ago
flyboy - thousands of our members have hired helpers without an agency... and they are generally happy - and they save the agency fees...
Personally, I would rather trust my own judgment in reviewing the helpers and deciding which ones I want to interview... at the end of the day an agency cannot decide for you...
Here's how agencies work... most of them actually use our site to find candidates (we know because we see that they have bought continuous memberships to contact the helpers).... when you engage an agency what they do is search our database call the helpers and arrange for them to attend an interview with you... they don't set eyes on the helpers they recommend...
All of this you can of course do yourself... as for the paperwork, most helpers can handle these simple tasks...
Thus I am not clear how an agency adds a lot of value other than they save you searching our database...
If you must use an agency again I will suggest Evelyn in our office... she and her team sit with every one of the hundreds of helpers who come through our office each month and she knows which helpers are the best...
No other agency can offer the same level of service... because they have no opportunity to meet the massive volumes of helpers that our staff see on a daily basis.
My advice would be to hire direct and save the agency fee... if you prefer to get some help, get in touch with Evelyn... she charges less than any other agency in Hong Kong... she offers a level of service no others can match... and she charges the helpers ZERO when she places them...
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I'm going to agree with Ed. No agency I have heard of can find you the exact right helper for your family. Sure, they can narrow it down based on criteria like nationality, age, cooking skills (on paper), child care skills (on paper) and so forth. But they can't find the helper with the PERSONALITY that fits your family.
You have to review and select.
The difference between agencies lies in fees and level of customer service. Also, very importantly, how much the agency charges the helper. Hiring a helper who owes thousands of dollars to an agency before even starting can be problematic.
Adele78: "Life is so much less stressful with no helper than with a bad one!"
Hear hear!
Adele78: "Perhaps 4 out of 10 even bother to come to the interview as agreed"
My suggestion is to go to the agency and interview the ones who are actually there. We did this and 4 out of 10 were "good enough to hire". You can interview 10-12 people in an hour. Very efficient.
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Cee
15 yrs ago
To fire or not to fire. This is the eternal question when someone pisses you off so bad in your own house but yet we think we cannot live without a helper. Whether or not you do in the end is a matter of how much crap you can take from her. As an example - I fired mine today after 6 months of taking hersh*t. From day one (I made the terrible mistake of hiring someone who could talk a bird out of a tree) she had given me attitude - from her words, to her facial expressions to her total disregard of my requests and basically lack of respect for me, her employer. The reason I tolerated her for so long despite her bad attitude is that I hired her when I was a month away from giving birth to my second child and she seemed to be quite good with my eldest son and she came with good references. So I was totally miffed when she worked so slowly and seemed to forget (or rather conveniently not remember anything I tell her) and would be outrightly disrespectful and cheeky even infront of my friends who would be equally surprised. And like I said at the beginning there is only so much one can take and today I snapped. And thankfully my husband was around to witness the whole conversation and he agreed that she was totally out of line. Save yourself the trouble now and just get rid of her because you have to believe that when one door closes a better one opens. I'm now having to take care of a baby and a toddler on my own but you know what? I already feel like the world has lifted off my shoulders.
BTW - anyone got a good full time helper to recommend ;)
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bbr, you're really organised and you have some very wise advice there. I do something similar but without the forms - I actually wanted them but husband thought it unnecessary. It's really important to ask a set of 'What would you do if...' questions and this really separates the good from the bad.
Agents don't know what you really need and your basic needs are like any other client's needs so why should they try any harder for you. Also, this may sound really bad but the owner of an agency actually told me that the helpers they have on hand are like 'stock' and the earlier they get rid of them, the better - less inventory. It's like a supermarket or any other retail business, I suppose.
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i quite agree with adele78, and flyboyHK, "decades of experience in this job mean nothing. It only means that you've got a good chance of hiring someone who is quite set in their ways". very true!
sometimes the most experienced helpers are the very helpers who have the most trouble adjusting to a new employer. they often are not even willing to listen or to try, and seem very prone to moody behaviour when starting with a new employer and encountering a new way of doing things.
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I haven't fired her - yet. In fact I did and I didn't. I did ask her to look around for a new job and take her time. I live in Singapore and firing someone and getting them out the same day is not really how it's done here. However almost immediately she started going out for dinner at her friends employers houses because their employer "felt she had been treated badly by me!" In the end I caved in a weak moment and let her stay. Urrgh. I instantly regretted it because in the next breath she told me that her former employers kids all LOVED her so much, even more than they loved their mother and would only go to her if they were upset and that she wants to be more involved with my baby. Note she didn't mention my 4-year old, just the baby. Not what I wanted to hear. Anyway, she is still here, for how long I don't know but things are better for me because now I just give her things to do and if she doesn't do it I tell her again and I do not let her have much to do with the kids. I haven't been able to put my finger on it until today, that is what it was that was bugging me about her. I've worked it out that she doesn't respect me. In fact I've always had that problem with maids. I think it's a woman to woman thing. She is older than me and has a lot of experience as a maid. However you'd never know it as she is pretty shoddy at most stuff. Apparently she has 14 years experience with kids but you should witness the chaos if you ask her to watch my 4-year old for 10 minutes. He (the gentlest, most placid boy on the planet) runs rings around her. Ask her to go play in the playroom with my baby whilst I take a shower and she'll grab the remote on the way and let him play with it whilst she sms's for 15 minutes. Experience with kids - what a joke! She doesn't like me pulling her up about stuff because she's older than me and because she is experienced - end of story and she doesn't like it that I am strong willed enough to say to her - get out of my face and your not doing that right. Anyway the main reason I am keeping her for the moment is that I am waiting to see what happens with my son's school. He is moving and I may need to spend a lot of time helping there. Once he starts I can see whether I need another helper or if I can go it alone. I am certainly not getting another one if not necessary. I am so over it.
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As you live in Singapore, the rules may be totaly different to Hk Imm rules. From what you describe it does'nt sound so good, she shouldn't be texting while watching your children and should be able to discalpine them . There are many other helpers looking for jobs who may well be much better if you want full time live in, have you looked into perhaps having part-time or a legal (to Singapore rules) live out. Good luck there are better ones out there.
Do not worry if she calls you a "bad employer" after asking her to leave, she cannot just do as she pleases to a low standard and expect not to be told about it, they are never very happy when facing the sack.
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I'll chime in with the above. If she can't do the job and you have spoken to her and she shows no improvement, let her go.
On paper, at least, it is easier to terminate a helper in Singapore. You just have to "no longer require" the helper's services, which to me sounds like "termination at will". HK has a whole set of criteria for termination.
I have no problem with our helper texting or being on the phone while working, as long as it is not all the time. It depends on what she is doing at the time. If she's cooking or cleaning, it's all good. If she is playing with the kids, not so much. I'd rather entrust it to her judgment than set fixed rules. This assumes, of course, that the helper has the required judgment. Then again, I wouldn't want to have a helper whose judgment I don't trust.
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axptguy38, judgement - you're lucky that you have a maid with good judgement. a lot of them out there don't have this all important quality or do but purposely decide not to use it when they should. when my helper started, i didn't spell it out that she couldn't use the phone during the day and she was carrying it around the house. of course i put a stop to this before it got out of hand.
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Judgment is indeed key. The helper should have it and the employer needs to encourage her to use it.
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whatever happened to rolling up ones sleves, and getting on with doing the dishes yourself"
Really this is quite pathetic, and Im embarassed that the poster is actually serious.
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Your missing the point,yes of course we can do dishes,iron,cook etc but someone else is hired to do that over here(when in Rome)The poster was asking for advice about someone who she hired to do these tasks and not performing very well,so whats to be embarrassed about?
We live in Hong Kong now,not the UK etc its a different way of life here so theres no comparison.
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By having a Helpers, which means she/he should helping you and not giving you stressed-out.
In that case, being an employer what you need to do is:
1. Write down your rule and regulations to work in your house that the helpers to follow, and what she should do and what she should not do in your house.
If she still does what she is doing, than go to the next step:
2. Giving her a warning in written or notice in written and this warning is also means for the termination that if she does not follow your working rule than she may get fire without one month in lieu of payment and that letter will be the effective to be her one month in notice of her terminations.
And see what will your helper react.
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