http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=4&art_id=83392&sid=24197647&con_type=3&d_str=20090612&fc=8
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clam
15 yrs ago
Agree with IslandHopper, obviously the acts of insane people. And it was just unfortunate that the helper was Filipino. She could have just as much been any nationality. Anyone who then makes sweeping generalizations of filipino DHs based on this will do so on any other basis anyway.
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yes clam, UNFORTUNATELY, she's Filipino. I'm afraid lots of employers will generalize Filipinos based on this incident. It's concluded that the helper has mental problem (obviously). Who would have the guts to cut someone's stomach?
I'm just wondering how long she's been in HK? was the Happy valley woman her first employer? HOw did she get away with all her health examinations from Philippines? I know that helpers undergo Physical and Psychological exams before coming to HK. Maybe her mental illness just occurred when she started working here.
My heart goes to the all FDH who are being ill-treated by their employers. I just wish it din't have to come to this.
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I personally believe that not hiring a helper is the best way to go if you can help it.
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My helper read this very sad story in the SCMP, but her reaction made me concerned, she said very 'matter of factly' that maybe the employer made helper work too hard, or told helper off, that effectively the employer got her come-uppance, I told her that was a very sick veiw to have, that no conclusion had been decided in a court who actually killed this unfortunate lady, and killing someone is never OK, makes me worry about this eye for an eye attitude, what could my helper, who is actually treated and paid very well do if we crossed her one day?
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I talked to my maid about this news, she told me they went to the church and a mass praying for the DH. I asked " what about the woman being killed, do you also pray for her?" She said " No"
You see, things could be so "one-sided" and they all saying there must be something wrong with "the Mam" being too harsh on the DH or too much housework etc.......How hard it could be in a 900fts house with a single woman working full-time, no pets, no kids, no elderly. No matter what reason behind, no one should be killed by it.
I am so concerned about the reaction of my DH, she thinks it's no big due!
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We can't possibly generalize what employers and helpers think. Too, employers and helpers look at this issue from different perspectives.
Some employers will be wary and may decide not to hire helpers anymore, helpers on the other hand will in some way or another try to say she's different from that lady who killed her employer. Explanations like "she must be crazy", or "the Mam must have been difficult" are just examples.
Just my 10 cents worth.
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Heard today, that the Employer is a local lady employed with the Govern., was at a party, came home at 4:00 am, inebriated. Went to the helper's room, demanding she wake up now, helper said no. Employer left the room and came back with a knife and threatened the helper. Helper was trying to defend herself, got cut on the arms, and in the end killed the employer. Not sure how true, but that is what I heard today
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must be super defense - otherwise why the need to hack open the abdomen and scatter the intestines around?
there's always two sides of the story. sadly, the other side wouldn't be able to tell her side of the story
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killing is just wrong, whatever the motive. my helper was shocked when i told her and she said that the helper must have some mental prob. but that doesn't say that there are days where she doesn't want to strangle her 'maam'. we all have good days and bad days and we all say we want to 'kill our bosses', 'the barking dog next door' etc. but only as a figure of speech.
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Ed
15 yrs ago
Our staff who manages our helper section and has extensive contacts in the community indicates that 'according to the other helpers that work in the same building this employer had a history of firing many helpers, yelling at them, some physical abuse – the helper that did the deed apparently have bruises on her etc.'
No doubt there will be more details of the circumstances at a trial
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Firstly, let me begin by saying that killing another person for whatever reason , except for self-defense, is wrong. Being abused, whether be it physically or psychologically, doesn't give anybody the right to put the law in their hands and do what ever they want. As other people in this thread rightfully suggested, there are other less violent options the DH might have done like call the police, report the abuse to the consulate, etc.
Secondly, Pls. allow me to comment on certain views on this thread which I believe disregard the "inner demons" these people ( like the DH who allegedly killed the ER) might have felt that led to their actions. Some expresses a very simplistic way of thinking on the psychological aspect of the case. It is very easy to say that " i have never hacked my boss to death with a cleaver no matter how horrible my jobs/ER/collleagues were and she should just have quit". Each person has different threshold levels be it in relation to physical pain or psychological discomfort. Its quite comforting that most people dont go out hacking others when they feel slighted . Unfortunately, others just "snaps" when being confronted with stressors that most sane people can easily overcome, especially if repeated over and over again.
I am Filipino but I am not writing this because its my patriotic duty to defend my contrymen's honor. On the contrary, I firmly believe that what the DH did was totally wrong. I worked for an industry that caters for foreign domestic helpers and have heard countless stories of employer abuse. Unfortunately, most of these abuses remain unreported because the FDH knows the system is not tilted in their favor! How many employers have been incarcerated because of abuse? on the other hand, how many FDH have been put to jail because of some petty excuses, like finding an old photograph of the employer in the DH's locker?
Most abused FDHs keep up with the abuses because they dont want to lose their jobs! Unlike other people who can just say "I QUIT" easily when things don't go their way, most of these FDHs can't just do it----the consequences are just too great! Questions like, "how can I repay my placement fee if I quit now?"how can I repay my parent's debt back home?" or " how can I send my children to school if I don't have a job?" and worse, will my employer file a countersuit of theft against me if I report them to the police( which is by the way the most abused reason to put some DH to jail)" almost always crosses abused FDHs minds before they even think of quitting.
Most ERs in hong kong are good employers. But the sad reality is there are employers that are abusive and sadistic. I hate to write the following sentences because I dont want to appear as if I condone what happened but I honestly feel I have to:to all abusive employers, Pls. take this unfortunate event as a warning. Not all people have the inner fortitude and mental stability to take all the suffering you give them and just walk away. Others are quite fragile--with all the problems they are having back home be it financial or emotional. Sometimes it just too much for some people to bear.
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PRINCESS,,, I THINK PHILIPPINES INDEPENDENCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS KILLING INCIDENT, DONT JUST POINT ONE DIRECTION ONLY, WHEN THE KILLING HAPPEND WE ARE NOT PRESENT AT THE CRIME ONLY THE VICTIM AND SUSPECT KNOWS WHAT HAS HAPPEND AND WE DONT KNOW WHAT'S THE EMPLOYER AND EMPLOYEE RELATIONSHIP WAS LIKE.. WITH THIS INCIDENT HAPPEND WE MUST LEARNED SOMETHING,,, " DONT DO UNTO OTHERS,,IF YOU DONT WANT OTHERS DO UNTO YOU" KILLING IS NOT THE ANSWER YES' BUT IF SOMEONE PROVOKING YOU AND KEEP ON PINCHING YOU EVERYTIME OR LET SAY TREATING YOU BADLY ARE'NT YOU GONNA DEFEND YOURSELF.
REMEMBER IT CAN HAPPEN THIS TO ANYONE EVERYWHERE,ANYWHERE IT JUST SAD BECAUSE THE SUSPECT IS FILIPINO. HOW ABOUT IF THE VICTIM WAS FILIPINO AND THE MURDERER WAS CHINESE WOULD U REACT? WOULD YOU POST SOME COMMENT LIKE YOU DID NOW. WHY U DIDNT POST SOME REACTIONS WHEN THE SHAMSHUIPO KILLING INCIDENT HAPPEND AND THE VICTIM WAS AN INNOCENT 3YRS OLD BOY AND THE MURDERER WAS CHINESE ALSO.. YOU WERE' NOT PRESENT WHEN THE KILLING HAPPEND, SO YOU BETTER NOT COMMENT ANYTHING IF YOU POINT ONE DIRECTION ONLY. BECAUSE IT CLEARLY THAT YOU ARE A MEMBER OF SO CALLED "DISCRIMINATION" I HOPE THIS WONT HAPPENED TO YOU OR ANY MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY.
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Ed
15 yrs ago
Please dont use caps on the forums - it indicates screaming and as we are all friends here we dont scream eh
thanks
Btw - if anyone is experiencing or knows of someone who is experiencing physical or mental abuse at the hands of their employer (it happens all the time sadly, and it is disgusting), please come to our office and we will help you find another job.
We will also support you if you would like to prosecute an employer who breaks the law - the unfortunate thing is employers who engage in such abhorrent behavious are seldom punished - perhaps if a few were convicted all of this would stop...
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"Treat others like you would treat yourself"...if we all lived by this rule, maybe there wouldn't be this many people "snapping".
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if you treat a person like an animal what kind of reaction do you think you'd get from that person?! there's always a snapping point, for some people they simply just walk away and others, well, they snap big time. what happened is really sad and unfortunate. if only the suspect got help of some sort before she 'snapped'.
i agree with byechicago, there wouldn't be cases such as this if we all treated each other with Respect.
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It's amazing that all this is based on a couple of stories posted in newspapers. Newspapers are, at the end of the day, in the business of making money - they need to sell the story and the truth is not always profitable. Wait for the trial to see the FACTS come out.
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missdj, where did you heard the stories? I don't remember reading it in the news report.
I fully agreed with Big Pete's reply, People are just have to behave civilised if they don't want to end up dead or in jail, not only in the empolyer-employee relationship but in every day life.
I just want to voice out my opinion that I really find it digusting for people to speculate and accuse the victim as a harsh employer, we do not know if she was, there is no proof at all (at this stage) to support those speculation, why don't we wait for the police to finish their investigation before jumping into conclusion??? For those people who make assumption and speculation, have they ever thought about the feeling of the family of the victim...
Josacs, i found your long comment a bit tipping to one side of the balance, sure we may have abusive employers but definitely we never run out of stories of abusive helpers abusing children and elderly...and I beg to disagree with you when you say the system is tilted, you are absolutely sending a wrong impression here... DH (regardless of nationalities) gets only 4-5 months jailtime when they are found abusing helpless children, for me it is too lenient, I don't consider abusing a helpless child "petty excuses..."
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It happened in Illumination Terrace, Tai Hang, not Happy Valley.
I think it highly unlikely that a senior civil servant would be drunk early in the morning.
Also, saying that "the employer is demanding" does not justify the maid's action. Everyone has a demanding boss at work but you don't see "office murders" popping up in town.
The maid probably had mental problems.
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"I think it highly unlikely that a senior civil servant would be drunk early in the morning."
I don't think it is any more or less unlikely than for any other person.
"Also, saying that "the employer is demanding" does not justify the maid's action."
Of course.
"Everyone has a demanding boss at work but you don't see "office murders" popping up in town. "
Somewhat different situation for a live-in maid. At "normal" jobs, people get to leave at the end of the day.
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Ms. Amparo Kia, pls. read my post again. I have never said that abuses by DH towards children is one of the petty excuses made by ERs when they press charges against their DHs. One "petty" excuse I made as an example was one wherein a very well known HK movie actor, together with his wife, pressed charges of theft against their DH due to the possession of the DH of one of his silly old photograph (in fact she went to jail for it!). I have two young children of my own and I will never condone any form of abuses by DHs or any person towards children. Pls. don't put those words into my mouth coz i never said anything remotely similar to what you accused me of and if you can't write coherently, then pls. don't.
Of course the system is tilted. It doesn't take a nincompoop much effort to realize that this is happening in HK. Even "Ed" shares the same view that I have in regards to abusive employers when he said in his post that " the unfortunate thing is employers who engage in such abhorrent behaviours are seldom punished - perhaps if a few were convicted all of this would stop..." For your information, I am not anti-employer and I am not biased towards DHs. As a matterof fact I am an employer myself and we have had the same DH for 3 straight contracts. What I am against is the fact that there are abusive employers that remain as such because much of the abused victims are powerless to do something about it (due to reasons I have enumerated on my previous post).
Of course there are abusive helpers too! We all know that. People, including myself, deliberately left it out because it's deviating from the main issue. But you are barking on the wrong tree here! The topic is not about abusive helpers. Its about the possibility that the ER might have been abusive, hence the violent reaction from the accused DH! There are other threads devoted to abuses committed by DHs. If you have something constructive to say on that topic then just go there.
What "wrong impression" am i sending because of my post? I think majority of those who are into this thread and read my post will agree that I am not against employers. What I hate are abusive employers. The difference between the two is like night and day!
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"I think it highly unlikely that a senior civil servant would be drunk early in the morning."
I don't think it is any more or less unlikely than for any other person.
I agree with xpatguy38. Anyone can be drunk, whether it be an office person or a lawyer.
Until all the details are out, it is harse for people to blame it on either the victim or the helper. To make comments that the helper has mental problems or the employer is too hard on the DH, is too soon to say. We do not have full stories, so until we do, I feel sorry for both the helper and the victim's family.
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that was a really sad story. we are here to talk about things and issues and to express our thoughts and be heard. but let's not forget that we are not the ones to make conclusions and let's not make this personal.
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Josacs, I am not here to argue with you, it is just my opinion. Your quote " one of his silly old photograph".. Mya I ask what is so silly about his old photograph??? I put it down on the different of culture, for you, an old photograph maybe is "silly" but for the artist (Mr. Cheung and his family), the photograph maybe carrying a cherish memories, see, that is the difference, but while you are staying in HK, you just have to respect and adopt to the culture of Chinese living, and to take whatever is not yours, be it valuables or just a pen or a pencil, is not petty to me. When people living in the same household, we need to have complete trust with each other, just like I will never go over my maid's personal belongings and help myself with her things thinking she don't want it anyway..
For me, both abusive employers and abusive helpers need to be prosecuted accordingly, that we are on the same wavelength....
Lesson learnt from this incident is, unless you have children or elderly that need close supervision, inviting a total stranger into your household always carry a bit of risk, and don't forget that sometimes medical reports and psychological reports(wonder if such reports exist) can be bought with a price.
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Ms. Amparo Kia, taking what is not yours, be it valuable or not, is wrong no matter if you are in hong kong, the united states or outer space. It is not the domain of chinese culture! Okay, a photo maybe valuable but is it worth more than a person's liberty, honor and livelihood? Do you mean if you have a domestic helper and she took out some pen and pencil from you without asking, will you file charges and throw her to jail because she broke your trust? Will terminating her not enough? Anyway, this will be my last response for you because we are deviating from the main issue here. I just hope and pray that there will be a fair trial and truth and justice should prevail in this sad case.
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josacs - you are missing the point...
everyone should be aware and respect another's culture and traditions and its taboos and culture's dos and donts
one thing may be silly to you but to some other culture it may not be the case.
and since you are here in HK, and you are not raised of this culture - then you should be aware of HK's traditions and cultures. Otherwise, if you are not able to respect and observe the traditions and culture of your host country, then it's time for you to go back home.
as they say - when in rome do as the romans do...
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FKKC
15 yrs ago
So true, Wiz Bang and agree.
As the saying goes, we are on the same boat, so don't go poking holes. If one is not satisfied or happy, just jump onto another boat one prefers, it's a free choice -nobody is stopping you.
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Why will go back home? I am a HK permanent resident. I have paid my taxes. I have a job and have contributed to HK's economy. I have not broken any laws.
So now it has become chinese tradition vs. other people's culture. Wiz Bang, you are so narrow minded that I pity you. The discussion and exchange of ideas I have with Amparo Kia , even though quite passionate,has the decency of being anti-racist compared to yours.
It is just so unfortunate that some people doesn't know the nuances of the english language that they fail to understand the general essence of what is being discussed. For others, like you Wiz Bang and FKKC, your racist biases blur whatever iota of intellengence you have left. The "silly' issue is not the DH's act of possessing what she doesn't own. I have made myself clear on that one that not asking permission IS wrong. What is silly is the "idea" that possession of a photograph ( without any trace of malice on the part of the DH just a confession that she was keeping it because she idolizes Cantopop) landed her a jail term and a lot of employer abuses remain unpunished!
Stating an opinion that I found some things in hong kong as silly or petty now constitutes disrepect to your culture and tradition ? Do you mean as guest of your lovely country we all are expected to say good things only, so as not to hurt your feelings?
When I'm in Rome, I only do the things that are morally right. Silly customs and narrowmindedness I covet not.
FKKC, even though your attempt at using idioms are appreciated, I don't really understand what your saying and the one you used is really way off tangent for me to comprehend.
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it means that are traditions and cultural norms that are different to our own cultural norms and traditions , and we should understand and factor this in making our working relationship work with the people of our host country.
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Island Hopper, you are like a pleasant ray of sunlight slicing through the thick and deep gray clouds, otherwise known as ignorance and hypocrisy, which sadly, has afflicted some people here. You've hit the bull's eye in what I have been trying to say in my post.
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I have attached the link for the old case of singer Jacky Cheung versus his DH and explain why she has got herself jailtime. for those who may not be able to read Chinese, here is the summary, the helper was accused of withholding 3 photos (one the singer and two his wives'), one personal letter and Video showing the maid accessing his personal computer. Another maid employs in the same household testify to this.
http://www.cns.hk:89/ga/news/2006/12-08/834398.shtml
I don't think there is any racist issue involved here in the discussion, it is as simple as in 1 + 1, if you are not happy in the place you are living in, move forward, search for another greener pasture.
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Now this thread is well and truly off point
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Who cares what any of you lot think! Lets just let the police do their job and get on with it. People get killed every month like this in HK. It is a terrible fact. But why is this one such a big deal!!!??
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Ed
15 yrs ago
Insulting others on here = ban.
Please refrain as we are all friends in the World of AsiaXPAT.
Thanks
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