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Mistreatment of helpers

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ORIGINAL POST
Posted by AlexandraK 14 yrs ago
Our neighbour's helper has never had a single day off in the whole time we've lived in our current village (18 months).
 
She appears to work extremely long days with no appreciable downtime (and most of her work is done outside the house - heavy gardening, washing, prepping food) so it's not like she could be whiling away hours in luxury sleeping and resting inside where we can't see her!
 
She also gets paid $2,200/month. Naturally her employer signed her contract stating minimum wage would be paid; they apparently get around this by making the helper sign a receipt each month stating the minimum wage was received.


This sort of thing - and the entitlement complex it represents - makes me feel sick, and I hear so many stories like it.


I find it extremely galling that, to protect the helper's (albeit extremely poor) employment situation, I can't outright confront my neighbour about this, especially when she makes pretenses at civility (giving my kids sweets, giving us advice about which village dogs are friendly etc, praising our rudimentary attempts at Cantonese) and then exhibits a complete lack of human decency in failing to extend the tiniest dignity to her helper.


Does anyone know if there is something we can do in this situation to help this helper? Any advocacy services that can be enlisted? It's hard to think that anything can be done without jeopardising the helper's contract and, pitiful though her wage and conditions are, she has two children to support at home.
 
 
Ed's Note - if you believe a domestic helper is being abused, overworked, or not being given her days off, you can report this to the HK Labour Department 

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COMMENTS
Susie1 14 yrs ago
What her employers are doing to her is criminal, they are treating her worse than some animals are treated.

If you cannot confront your neighbour which is understandable as you have to carry on living next door, then something must be done to protect this helper from further abuse, I think there is a type of advocate/sheler service provided by one of the churches, maybe St Johns cathedral, I am sure one of the other contributors will have their contact details, unfortunately I don't have them.

Her employers risk getting into a lot of trouble, with hefty fines by the labor departmant, and probably not being allowed to have a helper again.


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cookie09 14 yrs ago
nice try susie


the truth is that the helper will probably lose her job, have to repatriate to her hoem country and never find a job again in hong kong. that's why she is staying...


sorry i have no solution

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donafcay 14 yrs ago
Why not recommend her to another employer that will treat her well.

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AlexandraK 14 yrs ago
I just can't believe employers have complete carte blanche to treat helpers however they like/pay them whatever they want, because there's no regulation.


I think helpers should all be allocated bank accounts through a state-operated bank for their monthly payments to be deposited into, so at least it would be apparent when they were being ripped off.


This seems so logical, I have to wonder why it's not being done...

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Lord_Byron 14 yrs ago
Yes. It is very sad that this takes place supposedly in "Asias World City"


Unfortunately it is extremely common. In my building alone I would estimate that more than half the helpers are being illegally underpaid and with no time off - fact.

Most are paid less than $2000 per month, some as little as $1,200 and this is by wealthy families- it is a disgrace and makes me feel ill to see these well dressed Benz driving slave masters act as if they are pillars of the community.


What will the HK Govt. do about it? - ZERO

They are not in the least bit interested, as these "foreigners" mean nothing to them.

I have noticed in my 15 years here that, in general, the locals display a distinct lack of interest, thoughtfulness or compassion for anyone who is not immediate family. Morality and a conscience are non existent when it comes to saving a buck.


AlexndraK, good luck with reporting this to the authorities. There is a better than even chance that the Labour Dept. officers you report this to are doing the exact same thing with their helper/slave.

Your suggestion of a bank account whereby the helpers wages are paid directly is a great idea and could be easily implemented and it would stop this illegal underpayment problem - that is why the govt. will never introduce it!



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axptguy38 14 yrs ago
The only "practical" solution is the find her a new employer who will treat her well.



"I just can't believe employers have complete carte blanche to treat helpers however they like/pay them whatever they want, because there's no regulation. "


Regulations do exist, and the nominal legal protection for helpers in HK is actually very good. Singapore, for example, has neither regulated weekly leave nor a minimum wage for helpers.


Unfortunately enforcement is not up to par, and as mentioned if a helper complains she typically loses her only means of supporting her family.

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cookie09 14 yrs ago
"Unfortunately enforcement is not up to par, and as mentioned if a helper complains she typically loses her only means of supporting her family."


not to mention that she probably has a 20,000 HKD debt to pay off to the agency that brought her here.

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axptguy38 14 yrs ago
That depends on the agency, but in many cases yes.

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hkwatcher 14 yrs ago
http://www.helpersfordomestichelpers.org/pb/wp_f33f0785/wp_f33f0785.html


This non profit is set up to help in situations like the one this girl is in.

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AlexandraK 14 yrs ago
Great idea, krips, thanks - I will try that approach. The employer is a local. Her English isn't very good and my Cantonese is even worse, but I think I could have a conversation like the one you suggest with her.


axptguy38, by "regulation" I did mean enforcement. It's a joke. HK's regulations are no better than Singapore's if they're only nominal.


And yes, she did have a $20,000 agency debt.


The way the whole thing's set up to protect employers, even - particularly - ones operating outside the law, is the worst example of cultural arrogance I've seen since I've been here. I wish there was more we could do. It seems not though!

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axptguy38 14 yrs ago
The two things you can do is educate and lobby. Talk to the helper and urge her to go to Helpers for Domestic Helpers. Write letters to the SCMP and to your LegCo representative. Buy the book "Hiring and Managing Domestic Help" (which talks at length about how one should treat helpers) and drop it into the perpetrator's mailbox.

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Christelita 14 yrs ago
Even if the helpers had a bank account where their salaries were paid, the unruly employers could still easily continue underpaying by demanding that the helper withdraws X amount of money from her salary account every month and uses that to buy groceries etc for the employer. Helper ends up with the same low amount in hand as before.

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AlexandraK 14 yrs ago
Yes, Christelita, you're right...and it's very unfair.


beancurd, the helper has said that she is trying to find a way to save the fare to break her contract and go home. She's too exhausted and missing her kids too much - I imagine it's incredibly, heartbreakingly difficult being away from one's children but if you've also got no money to show for it, I can see how she thinks...what is the point?

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KrisL 14 yrs ago
Underpayment and abuse of helpers is something that is going on in HK on a massive scale every day, and sadly even though they must know what's going on, the HK Government doesn't give a sh*t. Yes there are legal options for helpers, but can you imagine after filing a complaint having to go back and live with the employer you have just filed a complaint against? The "living in" system is one of the root causes of the problems, which puts the helper at a considerable disadvantage and subject to inhuman working hours and physical and sexual abuse.



In my 15 years in HK I have heard a lot of horror stories from helpers, including several who not only were underpaid, but also were not given food, thus being forced to use what little money they earned to buy food for their survival. One helper told me her employer even counted the slices of bread every day. She found this out the hard way when she was severly scolded after eating a slice of bread while overcome by hunger.

Another one told me she had to wake up at 5 every morning, and being forced to work nonstop until 11 at night with barely any breaks, thus having to get by on very little sleep while working extremely hard.

In another case a helper told me she had complained about being underpaid to the Philippine Consulate, only to be slapped in the face (!) and told to shut up and stop waisting the Consulate's time by the consular official.


It is beyond belief that to my knowledge no investigative journalist has ever bothered to look into this, a potentially huge and shocking story of exploitation of enormous proportions!


I worry that this thread too will soon be forgotten. Does anyone have any real constructive ideas about what can be done?

Creating a pressure group to pressure the Labour Department into better employee protection for domestic helpers, and to stop the living-in system? A "name and shame" campaign against underpaying and/or abusive employers and unscrupulous agencies? Creating an employment agency for mistreated helpers?

What can be done?

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AlexandraK 14 yrs ago
KrisL, I've also heard about the bread slices being counted out, and food rationing. Waking up at 5 and working till 11 is also common (and then sleeping in a room or even a bed with the kids, or on a chair outside the kitchen!!).

Has there really been no big exposes done in the media? I've only lived here 18 months so I'm not particularly versed in what's gone before.

I do find it hard to believe there's no way to address things as "concerned citizens" or whatever, rather than helpers having to do it and jeopardising their jobs.

KrisL, I'm very interested in taking this further. I'm trying to think of ideas. I've posted about this on my blog/s and am gathering feedback and ideas from people in Hong Kong and from overseas. I like your ideas. The "mistreated helper agency" also appeals to me - as someone who hired a helper as soon as we arrived, and were pretty clueless about it, that is the sort of place I would have loved to find. A pressure group too, and using social networking to see what support is out there...

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cowleyp 14 yrs ago
This is just not as interesting as hearing rich people bitch about how lazy their helpers are can we start a new thread on that old favourite? Or a thread on why DH's don't qualify for the new minimum wage (labour department huh?)

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KrisL 14 yrs ago
AlexandraK, I would definitely be willing to offer my time and effort with anyone who would wish to take this further. Could you please pm me a link to your blog? Thanks

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BirdHK 14 yrs ago
I will hire her! We will pay her the proper wage, she can have her own room, our apartment is only 700sq ft with no gardens etc and she can become part of our family (having only one baby to take care of). Private message me if you would like to talk more

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AlexandraK 14 yrs ago
Totally, cowleyp - oh no, your helper put a gouge in your rubber playmat? TERMINATE!


Thanks for the figures, Nhoj_71. The inanity on this particular forum has prompted at least half of my feelings of urgency about this matter! I never realised people could develop a misplaced sense of entitlement so quickly!

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axptguy38 14 yrs ago
@madtown: ".work from 6:00 to 9:00 pm and no using your cell phone for personal calls. Really? Who among us doesn't take a personal call while at work? Who among us works 15 hour days?"


Agreed with you there. We don't care about personal calls as long as they do not interfere with work. If she wants to natter away with her friends while cooking or cleaning, it doesn't matter to us. Regarding hours, helpers often have long ones, but 15 every day is way too much unless there is a break of several hours in the middle of the day. A real break, not just "still working but not so hard".



The minimum wage is a MINIMUM. There's no reason you can't pay more, and if you are happy with the work I would recommend paying more. Just like you would any other employee.

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axptguy38 14 yrs ago
madtown, I don't think it serves the thread to get into a discussion of the validity of the entire system. I would note that helpers are (or at least should be) aware of the legal conditions before they sign on.


Personally I think it is unfair that helpers do not get PR status but it is not as if they are duped into thinking they will get PR.



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axptguy38 14 yrs ago
Yes I understand what you are talking about madtown. But this thread isn't about that.


Helpers mistreatment (e.g. paying less than minimum, excessive hours, verbal and physical abuse, no time off) is illegal and immoral. On that we can agree.


As for the moral validity of the entire helper "system", we'll have to agree to disagree.

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dansande 14 yrs ago
That's not 'reading between the lines', Nhoj_71, that's putting words in someone's mouth. So you think it is less 'racist' for foreign workers to be brought here only to be mistreated and abused? Madtown was not advocating a 'more harmonious' work environment; he or she was proposing a solution to end the exploitation of a particular group of workers.

I can imagine you will come back with something like: 'it's better for them to make as little as $1,000 a month here than to live in Indonesia, etcetera.' However, this particular bromide is debatable given the fact that DHs here are exploited on multiple levels: by their own consulates, by 'employment agencies', by unscrupulous personal loan originators who consistently misrepresent documents which they induce naive, uneducated women to sign, and, of course, by employers who consistently pay well below the legal wage, physically and psychologically abuse helpers, and falsely accuse them of stealing. Be reminded that Indonesian helpers are forced to pay the first seven months of their salaries to 'employment agents'. Never mind that this is completely illegal; the Indonesian consulate ensures that they pay by refusing to process any new contracts for helpers who don't. Furthermore, it is a not uncommon practice for employment agencies to attempt to induce employers to fire their helpers and select a new one once the first helper has paid her first seven month's salary so the agency can exploit yet another helper in the same way. Thus, unless the system is drastically reformed a large percentage of helpers will continue to be worse off, not better, for their time in HK.


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Louiseamanda 14 yrs ago
The way to rumble her, might be the Chinese way - ie sneakyy! - ie pushing neighbour into uncomfortable corner.


You will need to use insinuation.


You could ask your neighbour if her helper is available part-time (you have a friend needing someone) as you presume she is only working half-time (she told you she gets only HKD 2K + monthly - unless she is lying, of course...etc etc)


You will need some butter which won't melt in your mouth :)


Being aware many helpers are paid less than fulltime (people whose finances are reduced) and given time off for doing extra part-time, thus making about 4K (or more sometimes) monthly.



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Louiseamanda 14 yrs ago
The only way with this sort of employer, is instilling fear into her and you will have a 'lever' to use, whenever you wish.

You can 'build' on this and soon she will be jumping when you say jump.

Ha!

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dansande 14 yrs ago
'Being aware many helpers are paid less than full-time (people whose finances are reduced) and given time-off for doing extra part-time, thus making about 4K (or more sometimes) monthly.'

Firstly, I hope you are aware that if you are referring to FDHs this is completely ILLEGAL. Secondly, what does the reference to 'people whose finances are reduced' mean? If you are talking about employers it is not exculpatory either morally or legally speaking. If you can't afford a helper you are NOT entitled to employ one, end of story.

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Tune 14 yrs ago
How much more of this 'helpers’ woe' must we put up with?

Yes, many helpers are mistreated, on the other hand- many are not. I do not agree with the former and hope more for the later. However, the facts are: they still keep coming here to earn a better wage or have a chance of a better life. Many are successful in both these respects. To be honest I came here with a few dollars and a little bit of hope. Hong Kong has laws- it takes initiative to use them. If you do not look after yourself, regardless of race or gender you will fall short. The same rules apply all over the free world. As the cliché

says,’ if you do not like it…’


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josielam 14 yrs ago
Agree with you Tune. There are always 2 sides to the coin.

I am happy to have found this thread and will show my helper what most of her peers are experiencing. It baffles me that she pulls a long face at me when she is asked to clean the windows once a month. She starts work at 8 am and finishes at 7 pm and goes home to her family twice a year - all expenses paid, with travelling allowance. She is not required to work on public holidays and we pay her 4k. Our neighbours' helper is still washing the car at 10 pm every single night without fail.


Alexandra - would be keen to interview your neighbours helper if she is interested. Let me know



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Tune 14 yrs ago
'madtown', you must have fallen out of a lot of chairs as you clearly do not read well. I said 'Hong Kong has laws- it takes initiative to use them.' not 'Hong Kong takes initiative enforcing laws'.


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Tune 14 yrs ago
Do I really have to do this?


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Tune 14 yrs ago
Er, no I do not ' expect a poor young filipino/indo girl to stand up for herself and show initiative in enforcing laws?' And as far as not wanting to hear my answer- well that says a lot, does it not?

But hey, where is this going, alas not far.


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AlexandraK 14 yrs ago
Louiseamanda, unfortunately the employer is also my landlady. So I don't particularly want to instil fear in her. I do, however, not want to have to turn the other cheek as it were, just because of that. It's almost like blackmail...!


Tune, just because someone chooses to come here doesn't abrogate the employer's responsibility. Imagine if we "other" foreigners who came here for work got treated like the helpers do. Imagine we signed a contract and then got here, and the situation was completely different to what we'd been led to believe - and that Hong Kong wouldn't uphold its own laws. Imagine we had to work 15+ hours a day, for half the wage we were legally entitled to, and no days off - and with no recourse. The ONLY DIFFERENCE between us and them is that they had the misfortune of being born in a financially depressed country.


"If you do not look after yourself, regardless of race or gender you will fall short. The same rules apply all over the free world."


This is just not a valid comment. FDHs don't have the full protection of the laws in order to protect themselves. I don't even know how to address 'the same rules apply all over the free world', because that's clearly not true.


Yes, some helpers are treated well, my own included - if that gives you the freedom of conscience to ignore the blatant exploitation of the badly treated ones, well, I'm happy for you. But it's based on a naive construct in your own mind about some vague concept of "the rules of the free world", not actual reality.


Josie, in what capacity would you want to interview my neighbour's helper?

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Louiseamanda 14 yrs ago
dansande:- yes there are laws but if you are not aware that the enforcement of laws (quite a bit in HK) is not efficient, then I am not sure how well you know Hong Kong.

Open you eyes. If you talk to people you will find out a bit more. Many employers are not all bad, they do not want to sack their helper because they can no longer afford a fulltime. Some have developed a long relationship with their helper and might have retired etc..or semi -retired. There are laws which protect helpers but for most helpers the main thing for a helper is they have a job, not no job. Some employers are quite kind to their helpers, maintain their support but give them time off. There are many different scenarios (as in any aspect of life) - you learn that you cannot assume. Also many Filipino helpers know how the system works and that does not always mean following the law.I am not saying this is right -just pointing out that it happens! The 'illegal' helpers (apparently there are many in new territories) are also trying to earn a living, with NO employer. They can't do any holiday so when they exit HK they are finished.

I think there are bigger crimes in HK to worry about!

AlexandraK - sorry didn't notice it was your LL. Maybe you can sub the helper or do favours to 'help' her. Just an idea.

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Tune 14 yrs ago
Tell me this: AlexandraK-

'O self appointed hero of the downtrodden, of the type I foresaw contributing to the forum, hence the previous comment 'Do I really have to do this?'

How do you know that I never-

'signed a contract and then got here, and the situation was completely different to what [I'd] been led to believe - and that Hong Kong wouldn't uphold its own laws (not sure what you mean here-poor diction)...had to work 15+ hours a day, for half the wage [I was] legally entitled to, and no days off - and with no recourse.'

And you cosily assume that I was not 'born in a financially depressed country.' Well, I will tell you this much; you work the rest out. I'm neither Caucasian or Chinese. I've suffered at the hands of employers and cleaned toilets till late in the evening. I never allowed myself to be patronised by people like you, neither did I sit on forums (never existed anyway) complaining about how unfair it is. As I said previously, 'initiative'. It worked for me and my friends. I have no more to say on this matter.

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dansande 14 yrs ago
Louiseamanda, my eyes are wide open to the problems that exist in the society around me. I am of course aware that employers and helpers regularly flout the law-a fact which I pointed out in one of my previous posts. I have also been told many stories relating the daily physical and psychological abuse helpers routinely suffer at the hands of sadistic employers, abuse which goes well beyond the common practice of under payment. The most recent anecdote that has come to my attention involves a helper in Tai Koo being slapped and pinched daily by her employer. Additionally, she is not given food or a food allowance and is even denied permission to drink water from the tap; I am told her tormentors give her dirty dish water to drink.

Naturally, complaining about this on a forum like this one does nothing to alleviate the suffering of these defenseless women but that is no reason to add insult to injury by blaming the victims and denying the severity of the problem the way you and Tune have done.

The people who need to 'open their eyes' are precisely the ones who would attempt to understate the enormous injustice being done to thousands of poor women who live among us. The evidence goes far beyond the merely anecdotal. According to figures from the Asian Migrant Centre, more than 25 percent of FDHs in Hong Kong suffer from some form of abuse. A roughly equal proportion are either under paid or not paid at all. These facts and the links to support them are detailed in a report published by Hong Kong Human Rights Monitor.

I agree that helpers should take 'initiative' in addressing this situation. Many of them are doing precisely that. However, they are a relatively powerless minority in Hong Kong and they will not be able to adequately resolve these issues without support from other segments of society.

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AlexandraK 14 yrs ago
Tune. I never implied, directly or explicity, that you were not born in a financially depressed country. In fact in the paragraph of mine that you quoted, I used "other foreigners" and "we", in comparison to FDHs necessarily from financially depressed countries/situations - who are the subject of this thread. This was not poor diction but a deliberate way to illustrate that dichotomy of the two extreme ends of the expat spectrum here - those who are at the very bottom and those who are at the very top, in effect.


Perhaps your purported insult at my "cosy assumption" would hold more weight if your own opening gambit wasn't the ridiculous "O self-appointed hero of the downtrodden..." etc. What utter hypocrisy. Remember that you also don't know my background.


Thirdly, I don't know that you never signed a contract and then got here and faced a different situation to what you expected, based on law and commonsense. If you want to tell your story, instead of writing in half-finished statements, I'd be happy to hear it. You seem to want to share it.


I'm glad initiative worked for you and your friends. But the fact that you think that because you and your friends used your initiative and it worked means no-one else should help anyone else smacks a little of insensitivity. It seems (again, this is inference since your posts are quite cryptic) that you have previously been in the position that you perceive a lot of helpers to be in; one might expect a bit of empathy rather than this frankly confusing aggression. Perhaps you are angry that no-one helped you.


It's obvious to anyone that FDHs are a relatively powerless minority, as dansande says above. They do need people to stand up for their rights, and pressure Hong Kong legislators to uphold their own ordinances. That is a fact. You must admit that it is not always possible to use one's initiative without the comfort of legal protection. I dispute your allegation that by thinking about and talking about this, I'm being patronising. Since when is wanting to help improve someone's situation patronising?


I'm sorry you feel so disenchanted by this discussion. I just can't work out why.

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josielam 14 yrs ago
AlexandraK - if your neighbour's helper is looking for a job elsewhere, we would be happy to interview her - just trying to help out. We are looking for a second helper but later in the year.


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AlexandraK 14 yrs ago
Thanks, Josie - misunderstood you (because earlier in the thread we were talking about possible journalist interviews!)

That's very kind of you to mention. She is a very dedicated helper. The problem - well, it could be a problem - is that she hardly speaks any English, just Chinese and Bahasa...

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josielam 14 yrs ago
Alexandra - language is not a problem for us. We are ok with her not being fluent in English. I guess the problem is you communicating with her! Anyway, I don't want to bother you with this but if ever you find out she is desperate to leave, let us know.

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AlexandraK 14 yrs ago
I will definitely do that, Josie. Thanks again for the thought. Next time I see she's "home alone" I will try to broach the topic with her...

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Fixer 13 yrs ago
AlexandraK,


This sort of treatment to foreign maids is not as common as other posters have put out and I know that HK, by general treats their maids far better than some other countries (and paid better!).


To help her, you could have words with your neighbour and then when she is fired offer to hire her yourself.


It's always bad to hear such stories, but then again there are worse things going on right now in other parts of the world and lastly have think about how much worse she would be, financially, back in her homeland.

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dansande 13 yrs ago
You're right, let's give ourselves a big pat on the back because things aren't as bad here as they are in the Middle East.

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AlexandraK 13 yrs ago
Dansande. Word.

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dansande 13 yrs ago
Helpers are never prosecuted, hey? Just go to the HK Judiciary website to look up cases. Enter the search terms 'overstay', illegal worker', 'misrepresentation to immigration', or 'contract' and then tell me the government NEVER prosecutes helpers. How on Earth does what happened to 'egg-waffle man' justify your evident spleen against FDHs? Are they the ones prosecuting him?

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zvika 13 yrs ago
AlexandraK: In one of the past comments in the thread, someone quoted the HK LAW: The current law states:

After signing a contract which specifies a wage at or above the MAW, an employer cannot subsequently agree with the helper to pay a wage lower than the MAW. An employer who underpays wages is liable, upon conviction under the Employment Ordinance (Cap. 57), to a maximum fine of HK$350,000 and three years' imprisonment. The employer may also be committing serious offences of making false representation to an Immigration Officer and conspiracy to defraud. Any person convicted of making false representation under the Immigration Ordinance (Cap. 115) is liable to a maximum fine of $150,000 and imprisonment for 14 years. Any person convicted of the offence of conspiracy to defraud (under the Common Law and punishable under the Crimes Ordinance) is liable to imprisonment for 14 years. (http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/faq_fdh.htm 2011)


Now if you really want to help this abused helper, first check with her if she wants to be helped. Explain to her that she should NOT BE AFRAID of losing her job. Under the conditions she is working, it is not a job but would probably qualify for SLAVERY. Then, if you really believe that what her employer is doing is not only dispicable but is ILLEGAL, then you can help her. I am not a lawyer but from what I can understand from HK Laws, there is something called "The 101 Power" which basically gives you the right to make a Citizens Arrest as long as the alleged perp is violating a law that carries a sentence in excess of 12 months. Seems that this employer is violating several laws which carry sentences in excess of 12 months. Check your own sources before you do anything, but my interpretation would be that you can arrest the employer and bring her to the nearest police station. Try Googling "Citizens Arrest" to read up on this. Then take a stand and arrest this employer! Maybe it will make the news and be a wakeup call to others who abuse helpers.

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AlexandraK 13 yrs ago
@retsamlee: What? Yes, I am now on the computer on my own time - when my kids are asleep. So is my helper for that matter. Though neither of these things, nor how many hours I work in the day, have any bearing on how some helpers are treated here.


I have no idea what race you are talking about that make babies and dump them or flush them in toilets.


They come here TO care for their own children - to have money to buy them food and shelter, the absolute primary necessities for life. They come here because they are ABLE TO because the Hong Kong government and its people support this system.

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AlexandraK 13 yrs ago
@zvika

I loved reading your comment, and I would REALLY love to enact it! Unfortunately I do work in the judiciary and something like this would possibly jeopardise my own job here! The fact that I even have to worry about "upsetting higher powers" when confronting this issue is quite illustrative of the situation and how it's pushed under the rug, isn't it. I want to do something rock-solidly incontrovertible; I just haven't figured out what yet.

Thanks for the comment :)

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