Advice needed

We have just signed a contract with a helper who comes highly recommended and is great with children. We liked her so well that we offered her a fairly high salary for someone with only 3 years experience-5,000 HKD. Now suddenly, she has asked us to have shelves put up in her future room for her TV(it's quite large and well furnished by HK helper standards-about the size of a small bedroom with dressers and an armoire) and to re-arrange the laundry area. She is also asking that she be allowed to have a 5 foot high refrigerator someone gave her- will this be expensive to run in HK?


Although I told her I had to think about her requests, I was a little taken aback since she hasn't even come to work yet. Maybe she is just "nesting" and figured she had nothing to lose by asking, but she was quite persistent. I have to say though, that it has really made me wonder if she is going to be demanding, since she is already asking for things. I don't expect or want subservience-but still!


My plan is to sit her down and talk everything out: our expectations, etc, but since she's been busy helping her old family move, we haven't had the chance. What would you do? Should I ignore the requests, wait and see how things are when she begins work, or get out of this now???

TC said a lot of good points, as usual. It might sound a bit dictatorship, but I would say no to all her requests, including the lanudry issue. The reason is i m sure she will ask for more when she start working for you. Yes you are the master of the house and that has to stay like that when it comes to 'handling' your domestic helper.

Thanks TC and Mighty,

I know you are right. I find it hard to say no, yet I am upset that she is already asking for things. The fridge actually would fit in her room. The only place to move the washer and dryer is to the garage-and I don't like that idea since I also do laundry, and it's a lot farther away. Should I tell her she can have the shelves, if she pays to have it done (she was asking me to have someone do it for her)?

Oh Amy, if you found it hard to say no now, I mean even before she starts working for you, how can you say no to later days if there are more requests coming in. There are bound to be more.

Ok Mighty! I'm practicing just saying "no." My problem is that I always want to be nice (maybe it's partly an American or Western thing?) and I've never really been in a true employer role before. But you are absolutely right-I know that!

Don't change the laundry if it is not convenient for you to go to the garage. It the fridge does not fit in the house - could it not go to the garage? We always keep the old spare party fridges in the garage in Australia.

Consider the shelves if it is not too expensive and if she is in need of space for her belongings/tv- this is her only personal space in the house - wouldn't you want it it be just right?? She is possibly just a very proactive and organised person (perhaps the traits that encouraged you to hire her in the first place). She is possibly asking now so everything can be ready for when she arrives. The fridge is a belonging that she has acquired along the way. It gives a real sense of indpependence when you can keep the food you like in your own "space" - think about how you would feel if the food in the fridge was not yours or your employer starts getting annoyed because their valuable fridge space is taken up with foods that they will not be eating. Our helper also hates throwing food away and will keep even the smallest portion of food for leftovers - something that drives me nutty when the entire fridge is full of leftover food in plastic containers. They also like their local treats like salted fish and other foods that we don't like so it will not cost the earth to run one extra fridge and will make her happy and feel more independent. The alternative is she has to give it away. Consider each and every request on it's merit. Explain your decision and move on. Being an employer is a big responsibility - and to be decent one you will have to deal with all the real issues of a human resources department. If you were starting an expatriate job (which is what they are doing) wouldn't you want eveything sorted out before you started? I know I wouldn't be commiting to a two year contract with a firm if they hadn't confirmed my housing, health, salary, holidays and benefits - why should they be any different?

Ness,

You have good advice and good points. I just talked to her again, and I think you're right about her personality. She just wants things to be nice and organized before she moves in. And you are correct: she is not the passive, subservient time, and hence she is asserting herself, as we hope she will do when taking care of our kids. And believe me, if she's going to keep stinky fish, I'd much prefer to pay to keep her frig running!


On the other hand, TC and Mighty are right, that I need to be assertive too; it's my downfall to not say anything but be unhappy about it.

Sorry this is so long - but I hope it helps.

If you simply be straightforward and honest with her when discussing issues then you will also feel less "guilt" if things do go wrong and you have to take action. If you are not sure what you feel about an issue, simply say that you would like to think it through and will get back to her directly. I have had to do this several times so I could consider the long term ramifications of such things as extra days off, loaning money etc. Better to take the time to think it through than to say yes and then feel resentful or have to go back on your word.

You are the employer certainly, and at the end of they day your word goes, but there is an attitude her among many employers that does see the domestic helper as a second class citizen. Also they seem to be able to not function without them, which surely they did in the real world?

We have a wonderful helper and everything runs very smoothly, but we both work at it ( and she is extremely professional). On one or two occassions I have been "short" with her and I have always come back later and said - "I am sorry, that was because I was fed up with my husband/children and I shouldn't have been so rude. I would be apalled if my employer were to talk to me the way many dh employers do. Never chastise her in front of company or the children. Take a note and speak to her privately. Especially if you want the children to respect her and do what she asks when you are not there. You also have to back her up like you would your partner... if she asks them to come to the table and wash their hands, and they are ignoring her make sure you follow up and support her. Children are very very acute at picking up the fact that somone has no real authority. Our kids are expected (and we follow through if they don't) to treat our helper as they would their Grandma when she is looking after them.

Many people expect the DH to come into the home and know exactly what to do and read their minds.... I have been married for 12 years and I can tell you I can't read my husband/children's mind about how they want their food, when etc. I have to ask and check, or they ask for me to do it diffently and I will try to do so. Put as much as possible down in writing. I prepared a "daily" schedule of how our family usually funcitons. Not a strict timetable as such but information about when the kids usually get up, when they eat, when we need to be off to work etc. The children's after school schedules and what they need for these activites etc. The school schedules, what day people need library books and recorders etc.

I leave my diary in a common place so she can look at it. It is hard to be proactive when you have no idea who is home for dinner or wether you are required to babysit on a particular evening or not. Many DH are too timid to ask such personal questions of an employer. You must also be extremely consistent. I have one friend that won't let the DH start dinner or touch the food in the house, but then calls when she is late (chronically) and starts trying to give hurried instructions in what to prepare for dinner (say at 5:30/6:00) and they have three young children. That would drive me nutty as if you are a Mum you know that it is hard to do it during "witching" hour especially if you could have had it all prepared hours early. If you want to her to be proactive and say start dinner if you are not home on time then you shouldn't criticise if it is not what you would have made. You could perhaps prepare a list of simple store pantry suppers that she can cook in this event (our house it is pasta, or anything on toast - although she has usually sorted out a dinner if I have forgotten to specify) I have time and time again seen ladies here criticising someone when they didn't have the decency to ring and say "I am having loads of fun, instead of being back at 1:00 I won't be back until 3:00 - can you please prepare the afternoon tea, clothes etc?. Instead they rush in the door shouting instructions and getting everyone in a panic. In short, having a DH and getting the best out of them is a lot about you being extremely organised and consistent as well. I also think that people see the original minimum cost of a DH and think it is a great bargain, when in actual fact the cost is much higher when you factor in medical, food, sundries, bonus, insurance, electricity, flights, the levy, fitting out their room, transport costs for doing shopping etc. A lot of the resentment comes because their household budgets are stretched but that is not the DH's fault. Imagine working for an employer that is so gruding when handing over your money or entitlements each month - awful! We have one drawer in the kitchen that is her drawer. All the contact telephone numbers, school rosters, cards for dry cleaners, food suppliers etc are in their. Spare cash for taking taxis, paying drycleaners etc, you have to give her the tools to be efficient. I always ask what she would like me to buy in the way of cleaning products etc. We have a typed up shopping list with all our basics, she then just highlights the thing that has run out. I also labelled all the drawers cupboards to start with and showed her where I like everything to be, so that I don't have to hunt around for my favourite knife etc when I am doing the cooking. It takes a couple of weeks to get orientated so be patient and helpful - perhaps cut back on some social engagements to get help her get familiar. Lots of stuff in writing, and recepes with pictures and be specific about everything if it matters to you, remember she may can't read your mind. I even tell her that sometimes I would like to be in the kitchen on my own - she is just too efficient sometime and I just want to poodle about cooking. She doesn't mind and it stops any bad feelings developing because I am honest with her. Seriously you should have an exercise book or ring binder and put stuff in there like a job manual, it doesn't have to be neat or fancy just written down. Do you want her to wash every day or wait until the washer is full? Prefer her to vacuum when you go out? Keep the kitchen door closed when she is washing up because the noise interfers with your quiet time with hubby? What days for cleaning out the fridge, how many times a week to change sheets or towels, does hubby want his shirts ironed a specifiy way, hung on certain hangers? Lock the front door or leave it open, keep the house lit or be very careful with electricity (I hate a dark house). Ring you to check things or only in an emergency?

Yes, Ness,

That WAS a great post...do you want to come to my house and be organize and consult for me? You could probably even give me some relationship advice for my marriage and friends! So how did you get so smart-I'm guessing you're a psychologist?


Anyway, thank you. I think your post would be helpful to all new expats. I can't tell you how many people have told me basically that I SHOULD treat my helper like a second-class citizen. You have some excellent points, and I can only hope that everything works out if we work at it too. I am still grieving the loss of our old helper and I now realize that many(though not all, because we also had honesty issues) of the problems we had might have been solved if I had just put my foot down and said what I wanted from the very beginning. But I was inexperienced and said nothing most of the time.

No not a psychologist (only did some at Uni but that was all rats in cages and stats) - PA at one time for CEO of IBM so that is where the organisational skills come from. Of course working for some very disorganised people in my time I know how hard it is to please someone if a) they don't keep you in the information loop, b) they don't say what they really want

c) keep changing their minds every five minutes d) don't give appropriate feedback so you can improve your service/skills. Can't stand people who wait a whole year until salary review time to tell you they don't like something that they could have mentioned in passing six months ago. No one starts out perfect for a job, they have to be trained/educated, evaluated and trained again. There will no doubt be cultural and language difficulties along the way, but deal with them calmly as they arise so resentment doesn't build up and don't always leap to the conclusion that they are trying to take you for a ride... keep your eyes open to the possibility of course. I have seen so much theft and dishonesty from all sorts of workers, from taking stationary, to the company wedgewood, using the phones to call overseas, post parcels to relatives, take days off when not sick, forget to put in holiday leave forms when they take leave in a large dept so they have more leave entitlement, malicious gossip, leaking confidential information, slacking off using the internet, passing on porn or innapropriate material, illicit extra marital affairs in the first aid room (that was a classic!), driving to Alice Spings and back from Sydney on hols with the company car and using the company petrol card - you name it (and always in large blue chip companies), not soley traits of DH's as some who post seem to imply, basically it's just human nature. Don' forget to ask your helper every now and then if there is something she would like you to clarify, if there is something she would like training on. Don't grieve the loss of your old helper too much, people start and leave jobs all the time. It is such a shame that the sytem here precludes being able to have a trial period, and that the helpers themselves get such a short period between contracts (10 days I think) to actually find a new position as it put everyone under stress to find someone and lock them in without really getting to know them. Good luck.

Ness,

I absolutely agree with what you say, and you have some fascinating points. I know I will never find a perfect person.


I now have a whole new problem though! I still do not have a full time helper because Immigration sent her away without accepting our contract giving her an appointment later in the month-right before her Visa expires. She has offered to do some part time work for me in the meantime, but I am in a real bind with lots of visitors coming and a busy schedule. Then I hear tell that she had been saying she WANTED to go home to the Philippines for 2 months after signing a contract and then start working afterward. She had promised me she would be able to work in mid-April when her family moved away. Of course maybe she just needs a break and doesn't feel free to say that. It's not her fault that Immigration didn't even accept the application, but I get the feeling she's not interested in having a full time job yet either.


Any opinions?

Latest update: I asked her to come work tomorrow morning, and she said she wanted to sleep in and would come at 12:30. I don't know if she's just exhausted and needs a break or whether she is always going to be lazy! She was the second and younger helper in the family and she has said that the employer really didn't care about a clean house since she was gone all day. (The employer basically told me the same thing as well.) I get the feeling she really doesn't like cleaning tasks too well, but it's hard to know!

Maybe I'm just agonizing too much. My kids have liked her really well so far. Should I just give her a break? The problem is, if we don't hire her, she needs to use the next 10 days to look for a new employer, so I need to decide whether to continue or not!

If she blows you off again without a good reason then reconsider - just treat it like you would anyone coming for a position in a regular company - do you think you would get a job if you kept not turning up for the "interview" or additiona psych testing/training day or whatever it is that they like to make you do before you get the job. Tough luck if she doesn't like cleaning - it's part of the job. Get busy between now and tomorrow and write out that schedule - if you want me to send you one for our house to adapt send I can - or if you are in the midlevels area bring the kiddies for bike riding in our garden (very big) this afternoon. Present it to her and say - I need your agreement and understanding that this is what is required to make this a successful partnership/arrangement and for our household to run smoothly.... she doesn't agree then feel no guilt she is not the right person for your job. I am all for proper working conditions etc but it is a two way street and the job specs are set by you and accepted (get the job) or not accepted by her. I will leave you my mobile on the private message on the control panel.

Cheers

Ness-I sent you an email on this site. Hope it works!

I have sent you one with my mobile number, have not got yours yet.

Didn't get yours either?

Call me on xxxxxxxx. Cheers

Ness-Amyvalentine-What an amazing thread. I have just employed a DH and all seems to be working fantastic. If it not too much trouble to send me any spreadsheets on daily routine that would be great.


I also went through a very thorough list of my families expectations on her first night at the house. We also gave her the list so if there were any questions she could get back to us and also our DH could keep it on hand to have a read over every now and then if unsure as to what was expected.


Love the drawer idea I am now going to do the same. Have already got an exercise book for everything that my Dh spends and everything is accounted for. I am an accountant by trade to I suppose the idea for the exercise book was second nature to me.


Have three children so my DH probably could do with some kind of routine written down.


Question- My DH doesnt finish working sometimes until 10.30-11ish. Its been 4 weeks and she is still keeping to these hours. Do most helpers do this amount of hours?? I always say to her to leave the mopping/ironing til tomorrow but she insists on finishing it. Do I let her continue it?? I suppose I cant really tell her to stop. One more question do you guys do housework on the days that your DH has off??


Amyvalentine I feel for you by memory of the previous threads you havent had a good time of it. Hope it looks up for you. On the shelf issue I have a very hard time saying no to anything but if you are not happy putting up shelves then my excuse (to make myself feel better) would be that you asked the landlord for permission and he said no. I know its a white lie and I detest lies but it would make me feel like I was standing my ground and saying no in a nice way. I know I am probably talking in riddles thats what three children do to you and its also my DH day off so I am a little vague.


Thanks again for the great reading

We can't seem to get the control panel messaging working today so can't send you the spreadsheets but happy for you to use my mobile number above and call me and I can get your email, or come around for a cuppa tea - we have been answering on so many of the same threads and I live right above Bradbury school. I do some work on our DH's day off, certainly we don't make it look like a bomb has hit it, keep the kitchen clean, do the washing up, put the rugby clothes on to wash and generally keep the place tidy, empty the bin etc. Don't do any hard core cleaning though because to be honest it doesn't need it.

Believe it or not I actually know where Bradbury school is. It is the one on Stubbs Road?? Sorry still a bit vague thought I would check that there is no other school named the same. I am not very far from there as my daughter goes to school there. I will give you a call, thanks.

Great - look forward to hearing from you both.

Just left you a message on your mob.

talk to you soon

Ness what great replies. I have cut and pasted your wise words for future reference. You should be a columnist in the scmp a kind of helper agony aunt.

If it is not too much hassle I would love a copy of your stuff email is helperhelperwhereareyou@hotmail.co.uk

You sound like a woman after my own heart. I am in the process of hiring a 2nd helper and returning to work (and have 2 small kids). Need all the help I can get.

Ness...you should be charging all of us for your valuable advice on this thread.

I cannot seem to even copy your threads. Like the others, we could always do with your fantastic advise. is it possible for you to e-mail me with your information on DH??? My addy is montypinto@hotmail.com I well & truly appreciate it. Thanks in advance & like tictactoe says...you should be a DH agony aunt!!! Thanks so much... :)

Sarina,

Thanks for your reply. I would be interested in talking to you about your helper, but it does seem odd that she is saying she only wants to work for a Western employer! Maybe she thinks it will be an "easy" job?? I'm so sorry that you are now having to look for a new helper when you were happy with her. I have left you an email on this site.

Hi everyone who asked for copies of the stuff I have, will send shortly but I have been called into work every day this week and the website seemed to be down all weekend. Haven't forgotten, just need to retype some of it as it a lot was on the old computer which is no more.

Ness,

I too, loved your email. That was very helpful. Could you please email me a copy of your "task list" too? My email is octoruss200@hotmail.com


Thanks for all your effort to illuminate us!

Mrs Miggins,

I would most certainly not employ someone who is so obviously biased towards nationalities. If you employ her, you may have to tell all out non-white friends/ collegues to stay away from your place & your maid!! I would not have even answered this woman's ridiculous questions. She must be really weird....

Hi guys - the maid is racist to a degree, but she isn't weird.


There have been ALOT of stories in the press lately about Chinese families mistreating their maids. I have heard some horrible stories as well. (Of course - not all chinese families do this!!!)


If she's had a bad experience in the past - she may not want to expose herself to it possibly happening again.


rather like men.. If i've had a bad experience with an English M&A lawyer, I tend to stay away from them as a course of habit. ha ha!!


Having said this - I can't believe she said she would only come over at 12:30, instead of when you asked....

CCCMN, things are two-sided. While there are bad Chinese employers, there are bad helpers too. Have you read 2 recent child abuse by helpers as well?

Mighty - Where are the articles about the recent child abuse? I suppose I think to myself that this would never happen to my children but then again, you never know.

Ness,


We're are currently in the process of hiring a helper. I found your email really interesting and would really like a copy of your schedule.


Anyone,


How do you find having a helper living with you and losing some of your personal space? I don't think I can feel comfortable not working when someone else is working in my house.

oops - our address is timclark@netvigator.com

Its take a while to get used to it but at the end of the day you employ this person to make your life easier. My hubby continually used to ask me if I was relaxing because as he says all the time its not like I am being lazy, we are in the position to have someone else do all the housework and me, as a mother can enjoy my children 100 %.


Personal space, well my helper knows when to give my hubby and I private time. She may do the ironing instead of mopping the floor, or eat her dinner and stay in the kitchen. A good helper will sense when you need your quiet time alone. It took me a little while to get used to it but now I enjoy "my" time when I go to the gym or out. Dont know what I would do without my DH.

Oh Ness, Please (pleaaaaase) email me your schedule! I am about to employ a new helper and would soooo appreciate it. Perhaps your should start your own Agony Aunt/Advise website! We all enjoy your posts, I'm sure! zuliebird@hotmail.com Ta!