what time do DHs start work?

simple question here and just out of interest. what time does your DH start work in the morning? thanks!

If you have kids who go to school everyday, helper may start to work after sending them to school/school bus. (say 8 am after breakfast) Without kids, 7 or 8 after breakfast.


: )

around 7.30 when we leave for work and finish at 7... 1.5 -2 hours break (if they need to) while kids having their nap.

0630. Making pack lunches for the working people in the family. She is a natural early riser though.

Our son goes to school early (bus at 6:55) so my helper is up at around 5:50am. She gets plenty of rest in the afternoons after finishing the chores, and goes to bed around 9:30pm.

Our helper is up at 6.30 to have lunches packed, and does the school run. On a Saturday it's whenever, usually around 7-8am.

ouch, 5.50, notaclue, thats early... can you get him to school without helper? we get up at 6.30 with the kids, give them milk, have our showers and get dressed and our helpers only start when we both out of the door, so they take over...

ldsllvn, I know it sounds harsh, but she gets 2-3 hours to rest after lunch everyday, which is something most working folks do not get. She would get my son to the school bus, then come back and have her shower, breakfast, etc. Then I assume she starts her chores around 8:30 or so.


It's difficult for us to do the morning stuff since my husband travels a lot and I work with US compaines. Most nights I stay up working till 2 or 3am. I can just barely get up to say goodbye and give a hug to my son when he leaves the house, but then I'll crash again until around 9 or 10.


Actually, I think she is an early person, as she leaves the house at around 7am on her day off.

notaclue- 18 hour day, charming. Even with a 2-3 lunch break, that is 15-16 hour day. Yep, your right, most folks don't have that. Most work half that.

Still, I guess for 100$ a day, it's reasonable.'


But justified by the thought she is an early person... so she has a choice? Not surprised she leaves early on her day off... she needs to make the most of her free time.

Ours gets up at 6:30 to help me prepare bfast, packed lunch for my hubby, shes finished by 7 and then she goes back to rest till abt 7:30 40 before she starts her day.

our helper wakes up at 5.30 cos my kids school bus comes at 6.30 to get them. but hving said that i wake up with her while she packs lunch and makes their morning milk and b'fast, i shower them and get them ready. my kids are 3 and 5. also she retires to her room by 8.00. after which time i serve my husband his dinner and wash up the dishes. so i usually dont go to bed till abt 10.30. and she gets an 1-1.5 hr rest in the afternoon after her lunch. you gotta do what works for u. when she started working for us only one of my kids were going to school and that too to a nursery which started at 8.30 but she still woke up by 6.30 and would be loitering around the house in the morning asking if she could help. and when both mine started going to school she asked me what time the bus was coming to get them and without hving to even tell her she was up and in the kitchen organising their stuff while they were in my bathroom showering. i hv 2 boys so i usually stick them in the shower together. much faster!!

Wow it doesn't leave much time for themselves each day. Even with an hours break which really is of no use as you can't do anything in that time so still need to be home.

It's funny how we go from no help at all to needing someone working 14/16 hours a day for us can't help but wonder why we need then to be around so much and why we can't take more responsability for our own lives.

I guess it's always going to be the case while poor countries need to export there people to find work.

Actually a lot of us do take responsibility. I do all the shopping, cooking, washing and ironing in our house, plus the child care. The other day I had to take my kids late to school as I had to go to the airport, and as my helper had never done the morning routine, or been to the kids school I didn't feel comfortable leaving them with him to do it, until he had done it with me once.

school days - my day begins at 6am

weekdays and school holidays - I can sleep as long as the kids didn't wake up yet. they usually wake up earlier during thier non school days though :( I hate TV's

Cheesypeasplease


"notaclue- 18 hour day, charming. Even with a 2-3 lunch break, that is 15-16 hour day. Yep, your right, most folks don't have that. Most work half that.

Still, I guess for 100$ a day, it's reasonable."


Wow, I didn't think my post would induce such a big reaction. By the way, she works 6am-9:30pm, which is only 15.5 hours, less the 3 hours break, would only make it 12. Which brings it close to the other helpers who work 8-8, and we do pay her more than the minimum wage.


"But justified by the thought she is an early person... so she has a choice? Not surprised she leaves early on her day off... she needs to make the most of her free time."


And actually, she does have a choice. This is her third contract with us. I would imagine if she wasn't happy with the arrangements, she would have looked for other employment the last 2 times.

There is little evidence on this forum that people do very much at all cd all we ever hear about is long hours and high expectations despite paying little money.....

Our helper starts anytime from 5am to 7am.


And before I start getting irate responses, you should all note that the decision to start at 5am is entirely her choice. She likes to take our dog walking, together with another helper and her dog, at that time. In fact, over the last month she has been a bit put out as my husband, also an early riser, has specifically asked her not to take the dog walking as he wants to do it at 6am! She says that walking early in the morning (often before daylight!) gives her energy..


She gets up at this time on Sat and Sun as well (Sun is her day off and we do not require her help most Sat mornings as we like to laze around in our pjs).


I am not an early riser by nature and find 7am a struggle so would not make any demands on others that I would find hard to do. I'm just lucky to live with 2 people who actually like getting out of bed in the morning!


The other points that I think needs to be made when considering long working hours is that many expats travel a lot and so when you factor in both employer and helper holidays the number of months that a helper has to put in long hours over the year is generally much less. In our case, we are out of HK for an average of 3 months a year so our helper's hours are fairly minimal in that time (she still takes the dog out at 5am though!). Then, because our helper needs to be around to take the dog down on Sundays and public holidays when we are away, she gets extra annual leave in lieu - at present we owe her 30 days. If she took all of these at once that is another month she is not working long hours.


I think that if you asked her, our helper would prefer to work the hours she does for the rewards she gets than working 8 to 12 hours a day 48 to 50 weeks a year.

Moppet,


there is no evidence on this forum that people in their home countries "go from no help at all to needing someone working 14/16 hours a day for us" or that they are any more or less responsible for themselves in HK than elsewhere.


Why not just accept that other people will run their households and their families differently to you and, provided that they and their helpers are happy with the agreement that they have struck, it is really none of our business.


Many expats, perhaps you as well, take advantage of the cheap soft furnishings in Shenzhen, get furniture made in Macau or Zhuhai, even buy pirate DVDs and fake designer goods.


The fake and pirated goods are often run by triads so by buying these goods you are supporting organised crime (and by implication, money laundering, drug running and extortion). The reason that the other goods are so cheap is because these businesses use non-unionised labour - long hours and low pay.


It seems to me that FDHs are better off than other workers in Hk and over the border in that that their work conditions are regulated and therefore fair in this market. It also provides income to relatively poor families from the Philippines etc.


It is up to you whether to hire a FDH and, within the government guidelines, to work out your terms and conditions just as it is your decision whether to buy cheap goods in Shenzhen. In terms of exploitation, however, I'd suggest that the latter is greater than the former.

"there is no evidence on this forum that people in their home countries "go from no help at all to needing someone working 14/16 hours a day for us" or that they are any more or less responsible for themselves in HK than elsewhere."


Quite true. Before kids we had cleaning help and gardening. After the kids arrived we also had a nanny. A DH is just the next step.

Cheestpeasplease and Moppet, we do not have a helper; not because we have an objection to people having help, but because we did not think that the downside was worth the lack of privacy and the various other issues that we had to deal with. Ever since our last helper's contract finished (in July), my wife gets approached by upto 5 people a day asking for a job. There are a lot of people desperate to do these jobs because they need them. If everyone in HK took your advice and did everything for themselves then you are going to a lot more harm to the lives of the women that you are desperate to protect.


Just because we do not have a helper does not mean that my wife does all of the cleaning etc. Like axptguy, we had a cleaner in London and we still do here. Just because market rates are different does not make the decision to have help any better or worse.

"If everyone in HK took your advice and did everything for themselves then you are going to a lot more harm to the lives of the women that you are desperate to protect."


This is true. The positive effects on the Philippines economy of all that hard cash are quite significant. On the other end of the scale, if someone works in a very productive (money-wise) job then it makes more sense for that person to work longer hours while housework is done by someone else. More sense for the overall economy that is as there is more wealth creation in total. Simple division of labor. If nothing else you're creating a job.

I agree. When we had a helper she was very unhappy because she was bored out of her mind. I was so careful not to overwork her that she felt as if her days went on forever and did not feel valued. Many women like to keep busy (within reason of course) and therefore volunteer to work early mornings etc as illustrated above. Of course there are cases of abuse in HK, but helpers would continue to sign up with the same employer if they were not comfortable with the working arrangement.

Silly me, there was me thinking that someone working for a tiny salary, 12+ hours a day, often 6 days a week, under the justification that she” likes waking early” or “needs to be busy to feel secure” is exploitation. When in fact you were just trying to help her and help prop up the economy of her birth country.


The fact that the vast majority of DH come from Philippines/Indonesia, which are extremely poor countries, and not Hong Kong, must be due to cultural differences and have nothing to do with the fact people in Hong Kong would not do it for that lower salary. Please name one developed country where it is the norm to have live in domestic help? Try getting someone in London to work for you 12 hours a day for 200 pounds a month… good luck.


People will justify these things in many ways. The DVD in Shenzhen is a classic example. Last time I checked, buying a pirate DVD from a triad was illegal. Interesting again, and this occurs mostly in Shenzhen, where people can exploit the fact China does not have the rule of law like in HK. I would hazard an opinion, that maids, are people, and not lumps of plastic copyright- therefore, warrant more concern.


HK domestic helpers do not enjoy the same rights as expats or locals. That is a fact. Our maid of 20+ years, who had two children, who both schooled in HK their whole lives, would have to leave HK in 2 weeks if we fired her. Even though her kids were born and raised here not have permanent residency.


If a maid is treated with respect, with his/her statuary rights in place (at an absolute minimum) then I don't think it is a bad thing. Far too often this is not the case. I don't think it is always malicious but the result is the same. I often walk around the peak late at night and see DH washing luxury cars at 10pm. I see DH carrying two or three bags for kids walking to school, who are clearly big enough to carry themselves. I see my boss having soup delivered to the office everyday by her sisters maid, who then goes to pick up the aunts children from school. One Indian friend of mine was shocke d when I told him that I pay my maid 60$ hour on partime basis to which he said I was being "ripped off" and paid theres 25. I hear people seriously suggesting that I should hire an Indonesian maid because the going rate is 2,500$.


I read constantly about expats difficulties with their maids, and don’t for a second step back and think, wow, I have a full time servant feeding the whole family, entrusted with my children, and being paid less in a month then I spend in a weekend of dinner and drinks. And justifying all this by saying, oh in the Philippines this is a lot of money to them and they don’t have to work for me.


What I would love to see, is every single domestic helper (my own included) go on strike for one day and demand better conditions, ie no 12-15 hour days, salary in-line with market, and we would soon see peoples attitudes change from viewing DH as a burden to realizing how lucky they are.

"Please name one developed country where it is the norm to have live in domestic help? Try getting someone in London to work for you 12 hours a day for 200 pounds a month… good luck."


Let's see, there's Singapore (or is that not developed enough for you?), the UAE and Japan (where, i agree it is less common but not unknown).


Then, in the UK there is a well established tradition of au pairs from Europe. Nannies are also common. In the States, particularly California and Texas, Latin American domestic help is common - some live-in. Last we have Canada, the country to which many HK-based FDHs wish to move to work as live-in caregivers.



"Last time I checked, buying a pirate DVD from a triad was illegal. Interesting again, and this occurs mostly in Shenzhen, where people can exploit the fact China does not have the rule of law like in HK."


Last time I checked, buying pirated goods was not illegal although manufacture and sale were. In case you missed the point, I was not condoning buying pirated goods but pointing out that many expats do buy these goods despite the fact that this activity supports triads.


Piracy does not occur only in Shenzhen - if you've been in HK for 20-odd years the name "Golden Shopping Arcade" might mean something to you - regular raids for imfringing materials were made by HK customs on these premises. I mentioned Shenzhen because that is where many expats go to shop for pirated DVDs but that does not mean that there are not similar places in HK.


China does have a rule of law - IP owners regularly raid the Shenzhen shops.


"I would hazard an opinion, that maids, are people, and not lumps of plastic copyright- therefore, warrant more concern."


In my opinion, the people who make the cheap clothes, curtains, furniture also warrant our concern - more so than FDH who firstly have a choice about whether to come to HK to work and, secondly, the protection of the government guidelines. It is hypocritical to bleat on about exploitation of FDHs and then exploit other workers through the purchase of goods made cheaply due to inadequate labour laws.


"If a maid is treated with respect, with his/her statuary rights in place (at an absolute minimum) then I don't think it is a bad thing. Far too often this is not the case. I don't think it is always malicious but the result is the same. I often walk around the peak late at night and see DH washing luxury cars at 10pm. I see DH carrying two or three bags for kids walking to school, who are clearly big enough to carry themselves. I see my boss having soup delivered to the office everyday by her sisters maid, who then goes to pick up the aunts children from school. One Indian friend of mine was shocke d when I told him that I pay my maid 60$ hour on partime basis to which he said I was being "ripped off" and paid theres 25. I hear people seriously suggesting that I should hire an Indonesian maid because the going rate is 2,500$."


I agree. The way other people treat their helpers (and raise their kids) is sometimes objectionable to me. But, provided they are complying with the law, they have a right to raise their children the way they want and to ask their domestic help to do jobs that might embarrass you or I - as long as the FDH is prepared to do that.


Accept that there are cultural differences - i have seen DHs feeding 10 years olds in restaurants - which i feel is both demeaning to the helper and bad for the child but obviously not an issue for that family. There are legal protections for abuse of FDHs. Obviously, we all live according to our own moral codes but it is patronising to assume that people who have different values don't have one. And false to assume that their DHs are unhappy, deprived people eg because they work long hours.


"What I would love to see, is every single domestic helper (my own included) go on strike for one day and demand better conditions, ie no 12-15 hour days, salary in-line with market, and we would soon see peoples attitudes change from viewing DH as a burden to realizing how lucky they are."


So, put your money where your mouth is! Organise a strike, work with the DH migrant groups to demand better conditions. Do something useful instead of writing sarcastic, judgmental posts on a forum where it appears that employer/FHD relations are generally pretty good (hence our ability to dispense wise advice to those in need!).

I have met with migrant groups and hence the reason this annoys me as I have seen the results of how people treat maids. Did you know most maids in HK ie, more then 50% do not have their own quarters? Do you know anything on stats on maids being terminated just before long service bonus comes to play? Do you know anything about the numbers who don't get paid the minimun? Who get "revolving days off" so that they never know when there day off is until one day before? I suspect not. This is not the "bad apples in HK" This is endemic in HK, and your self proclaimed sage advice does not hold water with me.

Cheesypeasplease


You seem to have taken a very simplistic and biased approach that seems to assume all FDH are ill treated and/or cheated. Why do you choose not to mention those FDH who are paid more (sometimes far more) than the minimum or who are given weeks of paid vacation over and above the contract requirements or those FDH working for employers who are often out-of-town (one FDH I knew had an employer who spent just two out of every four weeks in town). And not all FDH are the honest hard-working ‘angels’ you make out, as is evidenced by some of the postings on this forum.

The vast majority of FDH I know (friends and family) work for decent employers and the FDH themselves are decent people only too pleased to accept their HK working conditions ('normal' for a FDH in HK but which you seem to think are akin to slavery) and they feel lucky to be employed as a FDH in Hong Kong (certainly when given the alternative options open to them of working in their own country or elsewhere in Asia or the Middle East then HK is a much more attractive option).

Cheesypleasplease, I don't think anyone is disputing that helpers are abused in HK, Singapore or anywhere else. Even if every poster on this site was guilty of one of the offences that you listed, hen I suggest that it might be better to try to type some of the anecdotes of abuse rather than posting trite sarcastic comments.


The employer-helper relationship is a 2 way thing. What confuses me is why anyone who, having experienced the hardship of 18 hour days, poor living conditions, minimum pay or worse etc. can work for a more generous employer and push the boundaries to the point that she loses that job. Our last helper had actually slept in the bath when she worked for her previous employer, was just about paid minimum, was lucky to get 3 days off a month, worked upto 18 hours a day (for 2 families) and never got home. She worked for us, a maximum of 8 hours a day, usually less, with her own room (albeit small), had 2 months off a year, was paid more than double her previous salary etc. etc. and without going into the details, she was a disaster. We did not renew her contract and now she is back earning minimum, sleeping on the sofa etc.


Taking the other thread about a helper who falls asleep etc. while childminding; the employer seems reasonable asks for advice about how to hande the situation and all you can respond with is sarcasm. How about a simple opinion? Do you think that it is acceptable for an employee to ignore her duties because market rates are lower here than in the UK/US? Would you think it was acceptable for a nanny to fall asleep while looking after children at UK rates? In the case of this thread; how about saying what works iin your house, what your helper is happy with?


Most posters here post questions asking for constructive advice. That does not mean that you have to approve of everything that is posted; but disagreement in a constructive manner will do a lot more to improve the plight of helpers - if that really is what you care about.

Fair point that we or I have deviated from the original topic.


Of course lots of FDH are treated well in HK. But if you read through these threads, much of the complaints are fairly petty (ignoring this one) and often approached from a position of fairly questionable (my opinion) stance. If I read a post, and someone claims that its ok for their maid to work 15 or 18 hour days, because they have the afternoon off, or they have a choice to work for someone else, or they get paid more then at home... forgive me for being annoyed by it, frankly I find it far more offensive then my "trite" remarks. You too, don't need to approve of everything that is posted.


I now have a part-time maid who comes once or twice a week. I have met her once for 2 minutes, when I gave her my key and my address. I have never had a problem with this approach so find it hard to understand when people write with such authority on the problems with domestic help. Maybe I am lucky, but I was brought up here, and as was my family (who now live here seperately) and we all pretty much have this approach.










I think the cases of abuse are rampant, including your current maids previous experiences. This is not uncommon.

I think that many of the problems that are written about on this forum stem, not so much from spoilt expats demanding too much from their FDHs, but from the strain of having to live with their employees.


In part, this is why FHDs end up working long hours - it is much harder to regulate hours when you live at your place of work. And, definitely, this is why so many of the problems that come up seem trivial. In living situations, it is sometimes the small things that fester and grow - personal hygiene, phone habits etc.


Labour is cheap in this part of the world and that does make domestic help affordable to people at all levels of the HK community. It doesn't necessarily follow that FDHs in these situations are abused or that there is something fundamentally wrong with the system.


People on lower incomes usually have smaller homes and so it is necessary to share bedrooms with family members. The proposed accomodation has to be recorded in the employment contract so the FDH knows of the arrangements from the start. If it deviates from the contract the FDH can complain. Also, these types of sleeping arrangements tend to occur more with local families than expats as our ideas of privacy are usually different (both from the FDH and from local families).


As for avoiding long service leave payments, this is common but hardly abuse. My own excellent helper was told at the start of her second contract with her previous employer that it would not be renewed for a third term to avoid LSL. So, we won! If an employer chooses not to renew and avoid these payments, that his/her choice. My own choice would be to renew and avoid the hassle of getting someone new who may not be as good but we're all different. One of my former colleagues used to hire two new helpers at the end of each 2 year contract so that her children did not get too attached to any one helper. Again, not my choice but not abuse either.


Helpers working below minimum wage? It is illegal and actionable. The helper shouldn't put up with it.


Revolving days off? Again, if it doesn't work for the helper, she should find a new employer if it can't be resolved.


I understand that many helpers feel that they have little bargaining power but if this forum shows anything it is that employers can feel equally vulnerable. Each party can be exploited by the other.


I agree that a good helper is one of the great benefits of living in HK. It is one of the aspects of HK life that makes me feel very lucky to live here. A bad helper is, however, a nightmare - much worse than having no help at all.

The fact is the vast majority of FDH in Hong Kong expect to work the hours they do (just as a coal miner expects to work underground digging for coal, a ship’s captain expects to be away from home or a bricklayer expects to work outside on a construction site – it is a ‘standard’ part of the job); if they want to work less then why don’t they add the actual hours to be worked to their contract? If the answer is because they have no choice and are ‘forced’ to accept long hours then why do they not refuse the job or resign? Please don’t say they have no option. The reality is the FDH weighs up the advantages of the compensation (money) for the work undertaken/working conditions against job alternatives elsewhere and they make a choice that a FDH job in HK, even with the expected working hours, is better than the majority of alternatives available. This weighing up opportunities is something all employees do not just FDH.

Still doesn't make it right Katana taking advantage of people who's choices are either terrible working conditions or poverty. Of course they don't all have terrible working conditions but 12 hour plus days with no life other than work doesn't sound very tempting and there are many on here who's helpers are working these sort of hours.

Moppet,


Many of my friends came to HK single or without kids or a mortgage. They married, had kids, maybe bought a home and now to leave would be a major life change.

When we post on this forum we each have our own perceptions as to ‘work’ and the type of work being undertaken. If my family and our FDH are all sitting down in the evening watching a DVD and I ask her for a cup of tea (often she may ask if I want one) then yes I am 'making' her work and I personally have absolutely no issue with this I certainly don’t see it as abuse.

No not abuse, but we'll have to agree to disagree about whether it's right or appropriate

My helper is a very early riser, and I have told her not to get up so early (she is used to getting her own children off to school in PH, and therefore wakes at 5:30 am) Se usually wakes at 6:30 am or before 7 am. She is done by 8:00 pm and is off to her room. Her days can be slack when not home cleaning, I take her shopping and to the park and fun stuff with my daughter.