Posted by
daffyhk
11 yrs ago
I just came back from vacation and realized all my house cameras power was turned off. I was having trouble seeing the cameras abroad but thought it was Internet connection problem. One of the plugs was right next to my wine fridge and my wine fridge was turned off as well causing my high end wines stuck the the fridge at 27 degrees for a week!
Should I confront her, scold her, fire her??! So far no valuables missing, but am afraid she brought someone in or whatever hell reason she did it. I initially installed cameras because I had bad experience with previous helper whoring around in my house thus have no trust in helpers. And no, there is no way in hell she turned them off accidentally. I have no replacement helper as of now, need advice!!
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did you tell her upfront that there are cameras installed and your want them on so that you can monitor the situation from abroad. if yes, then i think you have a case. if not, not.
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The cameras are visible not hidden, she knows they are there from day one. And they are aimed at my front and back door plus my kids room. There is no invasion of her privacy. Her manipulating and unplugging my cameras is invasion of my privacy as I can not see my own home. Some suggest I confront her and give her written warning letter...
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There is a case of unlawful inference with digital record ( cam video).
Use visible and conceal ones as combo if needed, especially during the initial stage. Visible one sometimes blinks and sometimes not blinking also help.
Introducing stranger to a home of course requires certain protective measures to ensure security and integrity of new comers. This is just a preventive measures but at the same time put trust on the next helper who is innocent from the wrong acts of your current wicked one.
There are examples of helpers using the host's facilities and even with their friends or ...even...boyfriends without lawful consent that is the unlawful intrusion render more than years of imprisonment and no recurrent renewal of any other contract. By such act, that might be attempted burglary of Police interest.
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Above all, you should be alert and get rid of this helper, possibly to be followed up by Police and file the incident to Immigration for their future reference.
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Just want to be fair to both sides. Actually, I am happy with my helper, a 15 year life companion with mutual trust. But also encountered some nasty ones with no remorse unless they face the consequences of their own acts.
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Your helper has seriously compromised the security of your home by unplugging cameras, luckily nothing was stolen.
She probably has been 'up to no good' letting other friends, or boy friend,stay at your home while you were not there to supervise her, although she would probably deny this. My next door neighbour and his wife went on holiday, and their helpers had BBQs with friends staying over, and the female helper wore the boss's wife's clothes while they were away, I did ask my next door neighbours had they allowed this, and of course they hadn't. When we had a helper she had her niece stay, and other friends while we were away, without out consent, in fact I strictly told her before we went on holiday that she must never have anybody stay at our home.
Is there a way your security system provider could confirm the cameras were disconnected? Also ask the neighbours if they saw or heard anybody else in your home while you were away. I would report this incident to immigration and to the police, before you tell her about your concerns, otherwise she will have time to make up an excuse before being questioned. I think because of her breach of trust to you, her employer, you may be able to dismiss immediately, and have her sent out of HK with no chance of return.
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Warning should be enough. Everybody deserves a second chance. Besides, it's a hassle finding a perfect helper.
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If she fully admits what she did and gives you the reasons for it, and you sense genuine remorse than a second chance may be considered but if she pretends nothing happened or lies about it, I would send her packing.
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Peds
11 yrs ago
Nah, if you really need a helper then start looking for one now and fire your existing one, your cameras are there for a reason. one being security, and it being compromised is highly unacceptable.
For whatever reason that she turned it off is becuase of some intent which most likely is malicious.
Of course there are no perfect helpers nor perfect employers which of course each may need to compromise one another, but when your security is at risk then thats another story.
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Speak to her. She may not have meant any harm.
Just a friendly question raised: xxx, I keep forgetting to ask you this but why did you switch off all the security cameras?
Then wait for her answer.
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no offend...
creative....but a bit naive...
How about saving your money by using no utility like shower water and electricity of phone and notebook, rather than that for the security of the employer.
How about resigning to "save" the risk of being compromised again...
Just to share.
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suggest that ask your spouse to resign and take care of the house and kids instead of hiring a maid in that case you dont need a camera. if your single i believed you can still survive without a maid help. Anyway their will come a time that it will be hard to hire a maid so start helping yourself.
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Thank you all for your advice, I decided to have my spouse talk to her and confront her so I am not the bad guy all the time. She didn't give reason but admitted finally to maneuvering the cameras. We wanted to confront her as warning that "I know what you did, so you better stop it!" And am looking for replacement in the mean time. Good helpers are so hard to find And hard to keep these days! Sigh.
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If there were more legal part time helpers available to help in the interim I would fire her in a heartbeat. There is serious problem with HK labor situation. How come nothing to protect employers?! Everything is to protect helpers!! All these crazy helpers abuse employer's children, steal, and other nasty things happen to us all the time, but doesn't make headline news!! I have had crazy helper flashing her boobs to my toddler son before, and even asked him to touch it! Sickening. Cameras are necessity, sorry to say.
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Daffy, you need to seriously think of not having a helper. You might get crazy thinking about what your helper will do to your children and family.
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daffyhk
u are right. report this to SCMP to get some attention.
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Confront her and gave her a warning. It's ur property,u have all the rights to ask questions if something's change or inflicted damages on it. Next time if u have a new helper, tell her u have a CCTV monitoring and reassure her that her room and her toilet didn't have one. (Place ur self in her situation)
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Daffy, I am so sorry that you had the series of chances to only bump into helpers that could not click with you. And I hope that your wines were ok!
If you cannot trust someone that is in your house to the point where you need cameras, I think the game was already set. It takes effort and energy to look at the screens and that's not what you want, hypothetically, this screen monitoring might even make you resent more the helper as it will take mor of your time, thus she is taking your time!
I hope that your next helper will be more of someone you can click with, and please don't give up on finding someone you really like. There is no perfect person, The more we demand an employee to be perfect, the more WE as employers have to be perfect so that they can look up on us.
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Thank you for all your advice. The cameras are just serving as a scare tactic to give them some warning, and yes, it is tiring to monitor them all the time. But the times are different from before that helpers do not have the common sense nor common courtesy as they did before. I am not looking for perfection just someone who is honest and caring enough for my kids, who are my first priority. We have no extended family in HK to help with the kids so we do need helpers assistance. And I am trying to stay hopeful that there still is someone good out there for me! If anyone has any good referrals would be greatly appreciated. Please pm me.
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an easy way out.is to use motion detection feature of the camera, this can automatically record and send email to reader once anything is moving. time saving.
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texjo
11 yrs ago
Our on/off switches & sockets are installed above our false ceiling and the closed circuit box is locked. These measurements are advised by security personnel.
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Give your helper a second chance. Perhaps she intend to turn it off to make herself comfortable while you are away....don't jump up with negative conclusions. Not all helpers are bad either, if we employers have a good heart toward our helpers, they give everything in return. They give/ work more then what they receive.
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Elcay
11 yrs ago
Well said jeric . Please don't be so neurotic ...if you tried to be a little more trusting, took the cameras away, found another focus, I'm sure you would be happier and a less obsessed. Your children will start picking up your traits and ways of treating people and this won't go down well at school...then they will loose out and pay the price a much more precious commodity than just just your wine! I'm sure the time spent surveying the camera could be put to better use spending time with your children or even explaining your self more clearly to your helper. I begin to wonder whether you trust the teachers of your children and other people involved in your daily life. Have a heart give people a chance otherwise it will eat away at you and life is too short,
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Those of you calling me neurotic and not forgiving obviously have not gotten a dosage of bad helpers before. I was not born this way trust me. I had a helper with me for 8 years then after she left to get married then came this wave of modern age helpers, an entirely new breed. I don't think you would be so relaxed and forgiving if you have found your helper in bed with a stranger on your bed before.
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Peds
11 yrs ago
@Elcay
TS being a neurotic? have you just read and understood the content of what you have just said? isn't it ironic that you came to the extent of involving the children and then some.
just as the TS said, she placed those cameras for a reason,
and to quote "The cameras are just serving as a scare tactic to give them some warning"
It is a reality that some of the helpers DO take advantage of your home while your away. Come'on are you naive not to know that? your helper may not be doing it to you but your not the only one who has one and they do not posses the goody two shoes attitude like the one you have.
And to comment on this "Perhaps she intend to turn it off to make herself comfortable while you are away"
In the first place, why would you feel uncomfortable if your not doing anything wrong?
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Elcay
11 yrs ago
Peds and daffy hk-try looking at things from the other perspective- I wonder if you would feel the same way if you had a camera on you all the time...if your boss had a camera monitoring your every move! We all like to feel trusted.
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Be fair, not only to helpers, nowadays we are living with technology and enhanced security setting, even in banks, McDonald, Transport, offices, there are cameras.
Just act normal and if there is nothing bad to hide, nothing to worry about.
Regardless of ethnics and occupation, be respectful and mindful that the properties in the workplace were owned by the employers.
With such mentality, there should be no hard feeling at all.
Be happy !
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Peds
11 yrs ago
@Elcay
Like i said, if you are not doing anything wrong or planning to do anything wrong, then there is no reason not to be uncomfortable even when there is CCTV around.
May be at home or even at the office, there are CCTV systems all around HK, do you then conclude that these establishments with CCTVs don't trust you?
The fact the you got hired is that your boss has trusted you to work for him.
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Trust and trust will be given to you....am sure your helper knows about your camera but again your helper must be always tense thinking am i doing my job right? paparazzi is always no good ...
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Exercise your RIGHT. Get rid of her.
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I have the feeling that some of these ridiculous comments can only be posted by helpers using this forum to post stupid comments. Do not think twice fire her NOW with cause and report her to the police and immigration making sure she never returns to Hong Kong.
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Yes I have decided to terminate her soon, as I just caught her on camera screaming at my son and smashing my house phone to the wall. This behavior was because I was not home and asked her to read story for my son before he sleep. She refused my son and kept checking her phone, so my son called me about it and I scolded her. She went into rage and screamed at my son until he cried. She is not only sneaky but just showed her crazy side as well. Unbelievable. Will have to find someone soon to replace! Thank you all for those of you who were so supportive.
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Peds
11 yrs ago
@daffy
Great!! Could have been a lot more worst if you gave here that 2nd chance, sheesh!
By the way, we're curious on what was her reason on turning off the cameras?
TIA
@midorosan
Most likely so.
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Senan
11 yrs ago
I've had a similar experience with a helper who always turned my camera to a direction, covered it, or taught my youngest son to turn it off. I would strongly suggest not waiting until you find the right replacement helper to terminate her as this could take 2-3 months. During the time it took me to find a replacement, both my sons have told me (after she left) that the helper had screamed at them, hit them when they didn't eat fast enough, give them medicine that made them sleepy, use the shower to spray their faces during bath time, ... plus a whole bunch of other horror stories. If you suspect something is wrong, then make the change as soon as you can for your kids. Don't wait for the replacement.
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@peds, she never gave a reason, but confessed to the manipulation of cameras after I cornered her that the chance of accidentally turning off all cameras while I'm away equals zero. @senan oh wow, that's terrible! Unfortunately I have no one to babysit my son so I will have to wait, but fortunately my son is not too young now and can verbalize what happened. As I said earlier, if there were more availability of AFFORDABLE part times or local babysitters in HK, keeping her would not be an option!
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I am going to make a general comment about this case and it is NOT aimed at the OP.
If you are an employer who puts a camera in the helpers bedroom, it is against the HK privacy laws. If the helper shares the bedroom with your child and there is camera, it is also against the privacy laws.
A helper has the right to privacy. If they are already sharing the bedroom with a child for 2 years, that is already hard enough. But sharing your bedroom with a camera should not happen, yet all too often it does.
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Put it in simple sentences.
The FDH rest place with no other employer's children can be regarded as privacy zone.
If have reasonable suspicion, all premise owner's place can be monitored with genuine need and of appropriate degree.
If have no particular suspicion, all areas without reasonable expectation of privacy can be monitored.
The FDH with children on the same bed case is not a good example. One may argue about how to define the privacy zone but there are ordinances, need, and reasonable concern from protection of child angle. If dig into privacy laws, there are circumstances that such situation is justified.
Apart from viewing the things in legal perspective, just to mutually respect each other without abuse, the world will be better.
Cheers.
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Your helper lives in your apartment. That means your apartment is her home too - if you like it or not. To observe someone with cameras in her own apartment is pretty poor behaviour. Either trust her or do the work yourself.
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Your helper lives in your apartment. That means your apartment is her home too - if you like it or not. To observe someone with cameras in her own apartment is pretty poor behaviour. Either trust her or do the work yourself.
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Like it or not. The contracted premise is owned by the owner who pay the rent/land and it is of the owner's legal right and interest to have security or abuse concern.
Like it or not. The modern world is installed with such gears. Either behave or quit the job for other better alternative career that deem fit.
I do agree that we should treat every FDH equally with no prejudice and appreciate what they contribute to the family and put mutual trust between both sides.
However, one should learn the right orientation of the position. Who is the host and who is under employment.
Let's quote again Midorosan's wise words ...
....some of these ridiculous comments can only be posted by helpers using this forum to post .....
Do things under the Sunshine with no remorse under Father's name would suffice.
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asiaX
You are off base to think that because you are the employer, you have full and unrestricted access to your employee 24/7.
Furthermore, your comment of right orientation needs to be adjusted. There is no host at the same time there is employment. These two words do not go together AT ALL.
Your quote "Do things under the Sunshine" is correct, but you need to remember that having a camera in the bedroom is not under the sunshine nor will it ever be. Privacy is not something that must be earned from the employer, it must be a basic right received by all.
Also calling others opinions ridiculous simply because they are from helpers shows a prejudice on your part specifically your perceptions between you and "helpers"
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I think the so called " nanny cam" is legal in many places for the sole motivation of " the right to protect your child" with specifications. Namely, consent of the placement of nanny cams open the nanny starts her job, especially if she is a live in, no audio recording, the camera must comply with the regulations, no camera where privacy can be invaded.
I still think that the moment you have to install a camera that you cannot trust a person, the game is over, but, if you do it in the correct manner, it is not illegal, for arguments sake. I personally feel that if you want to do this, you should make the terms and conditions clear with your employee before hand.
I read an article interviewing nannies under surveillance and informed or not, it made them more nervous executing their jobs regardless of "nothing to hide." One nanny mentioned it was so uncomfortable as the baby's projectile started really smelling but, she was only able to change in front of the camera as she HAD to monitor the baby.
Everyone knows that we are constantly monitored, in the lift, in the supermarket, etc but, my personal opnion is that home surveillance is quite different from mass surveillance. Don't we refrain from picking our nose in the lift because we know the security room can see us and it'll probably be their entertainment?
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A link to the Notes for employers of domestic helpers from the Privacy Commissioner.
https://www.pcpd.org.hk/english/ordinance/files/DH_e.pdf
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Hk watcher thank you for the link to the article. However there are NO cameras in the helper room, nor her bathroom, but located in my sons room as well as aiming at my front and back doors. So we are talking about complete different issue here. The topic is my helper TURNED OFF my cameras without my permission here, just to clarify. This is not a session about helpers rights nor helpers privacy, this is about employers rights being invaded while employer was OUT OF TOWN. Employers have rights too, not just the employed.
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daffyhk
If you scroll back to 9 days ago, you will see that I specifically wrote I was not aiming my comments at your situation, rather at those who place cameras in bedrooms. The reply from asiaxdreamy prompted me to paste the link.
If I have offended you I apologize.
The privacy ordinace is just that, it is an ordinance and not really a law. With regard to domestic helpers the ordinance is clear. Trust is the best thing to have. If the helper thinks the employer never trusts her, why stay? She will either not renew or find a new employer. Nearly every helper I've ever met agrees with cameras in the living room or kitchen, children bedroom also, just not specifically aimed at them if they share.
If a girl comes out to see the sir employer on his computer with the screen showing her bed rather than aiming at the children, then is that trust? Or the sir will never allow the camera to be turned off in the bedroom, she willnot think there is trust.
Your situation is far removed from that. Perhaps I should have made a separate topic, but the reality is out there.
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Thanks for reminding my aged memory long time ago while completing the LLM.
Read carefully... reasonable suspicion that....
likely that the suspected....
no realistic alternatives.....
That is written....on a GUIDELINE.
The gist is, let me reiterate again..
Apart from viewing the things in legal perspective, just to mutually respect each other without abuse, the world will be better.
I am not picking a pen fight. But reading the words with single side view may lead to misinterpretation.
There are judgment and case laws. Don't wanna cite them here to give a lesson to some readers if they have ill mind.
Cheers. Be happy. Be caring to others, rather than rely on your belief in laws which are not fully understood by everybody.
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Fairly speaking, there are reasons to monitor the outsider living in your most private home.
Of course, most of the helpers are contributing and with good and kind mind.
Without prejudice, let's stop the fight and face the dilemma...thinking from both perspective, and respect each others.
God see the whole processes.
https://youtu.be/L18mihiJPDc?si=yjPVx8QuL7CfCKsG
http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne+News/Singapore/Story/A1Story20090403-132884.html
http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/31469-Maid-nanny-stealing
http://sg.theasianparent.com/maid-woes-what-to-do-if-your-maid-is-stealing-from-you/
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Thank you Hk watcher for clarifying that you are talking about a different topic. And to AsiaXdreamy, OMG! Those crazy videos are precisely why some helpers can not be trusted! I am sorry to say but some these horrible helpers have made it bad for the rest of the good ones. It is hard for employers to TRUST with many of these incidences happening around the world. Yes mam yes mam, and turn around and do this kind of thing when you are not home...
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I believe that parents should take care of their children. HK should ban FDHs.
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Be fair.. like you've highlighted...
these horrible helpers have made it bad for the rest of the good ones.
And also,
those horrible employers have made it bad for the rest of the good employers.
However, there are many good ones. At least mine have been here for decade (approaching 16 yrs..) with mutual trust and passion towards duties and our family. The hatred is created by troublesome individuals with their stories/rumours spreading like epidemic polluting our ears.
Let us do better to build up the relationship from both ends by acting righteous and fair for our own selves. And be considerate to the other side, and not to abuse the other side's kindness/trust.
The world would be better.
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Quick update of the helper as I did fire her in July as she was getting out of hand, first day of summer vacation of my son, she was in her room for 2 hours on the phone, even after I asked her to come out to do her work repeatedly. When she left I saw her packing suitcases of Vitamins that she was selling as side business, no wonder always on the phone and can not focus at work. I guess once you smell something wrong there usually is something going on. Trust your instincts.
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Thank DAFFYHK for the sharing.
If you find her selling thing in Hong Kong, that is BREACH OF CONDITION OF STAY which is against the FDH contract and visa condition so granted by the Immigration.
Custodial sentence, waiving of current visa, repatriate for the coming arrivals, and fine would be imposed upon conviction. You may write a letter to report such to Immigration for record and their follow up.
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that's definetly something wrong with her. my helper started turn off camera after few months hiring and even if I warned her not touching camera, she still kept turning off.
eventually I found she steal my personal items during we are on vacation.
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How about are grandma's must have access to the camera too?like grandma is viewing more than my employers did,is this against?Yea i know have camera and i never touch it and i dont care,but its annoying like grandma is more bossy than my bos,this makes me annoyed and thinking to renew or not just because of the grandma,and everytime calling in the cam.Why don't she stay and take care her grand daughter.
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If you just do the thing right, just there is nothing worry about it. Same applied to your employer especially when they are working in certain field, like...shop, bank, restaurant....bla bla bla, most of them has certain extent of video record nowaday.
Just relax and be yourself.
If there is no need for the "help" by the helper, why do they hire a helper? Couldn't just blame " Why don't she stay and take care her grand daughter." That is totally wrong in logic.
Be considerate, what if you can watch your own children at home, just like you guys watching through internet and chat with them.... you would surely choose to watch.
It's normal. Relax.
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