Posted by
miao miao
16 yrs ago
it's getting really cold these days but my helper is still wearing a thin sweater when she goes out on sunday (she rarely goes out on her workdays). she's got a running nose already. i told her to put on something thicker, but she replied that she had nothing thicker. i told her that winter in hong kong is a lot colder than in the philippines and she really need buy one to live through the next 2 to 3 months. then she remained silent.
she's been with us for several months and i can tell that she tries not to spend money here in hong kong. she's been borrowing things (umbrella, bags, etc) from us and to the extent appropriate we've always allowed. she of course is provided with things like toilet paper and hand soap. i even gave her some pads once.
my feeling is that she does not want to buy a winter jacket, and will be more than happy if we "lend" or even give her one. but for me this gets a little too far. i mean, i can understand her need to save money, and a jacket is not something we cannot afford. but i feel we have to draw a line as to what we provide to her, and clothing seems too personal and i also don't want to open the door for other, more inappropriate items. it's all about managing expectation.
on the other hand, i certainly don't want her to freeze herself and get sick, which is not in our interest anyway.
how would you deal with a situation like this? thanks!
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
From your description, I would definitely get her some warm clothing......hope you provide thick blanket for her too. She came to HK to work because she's poor so I guess as her employer you should be a bit more compassionate towards her. You can even give your old clothing although new ones aren't that expensive.....I am sure she will be happy & appreciative either way.
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fkkc, thanks for your advice, but hold off having a go on me yet:)
we do provide full bedding set for her, including a thick quit. and we treat her with respect. all i'm concerned about was drawing a line as to what we as employers are supoosed to give an employee and managing the employee's expectation. she's certainly not rich by hong kong standard but not really that bad in the philippines; she came to work in hong kong so that her kids can go to private schools in the philippines (which she said are very expensive). i of course think what she's doing for her kids is admirable, and, as said, treat her fairly and with respect. but i do want to keep our relationship as an employment, not family or friendship, which i think is hard to manage, and you can see a lot of stories on this forum telling you why.
we are not rich, but yes we can afford a warm jacket, but frankly i think so can she. i can give her a jacket, but what about other things in the future? i just don't want her to assume that as long as she tells me she doesn't have something needed i'll give one to her, but i do have that fear based on experience in the past months.
thanks again for your advice, which i'll consider seriously.
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cd
16 yrs ago
I think either give her a couple of your old jumpers, or tell her where to buy a cheap coat i.e the markets. Or maybe buy her a nice jumper, scarf etc for christmas. I don't think you should have to buy your helper clothes, she's not your child.
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Take her on a trip to Mong Kok, Fa Yuen Street or something similar and have her bring some money to purchase something. She is your employee, not your child that you need dress. If she wants to send every cent home, then that is her perogative, but not at the sacrifice of not doing her job because she is too sick from not wearing warmer clothing.
I understand helpers are saving and sending money back home (so are we, that's why we are here also), but that doesn't mean that we have to provide everything for them. My boss would not buy/give me a jacket if I was cold and honestly, they do not cost that much money. I agree that if you start handing stuff over she is going to expect it all the time. miao miao , I agree with you 100%.
As I always say, nip it in the bud. Sit down with her and explain that she needs to purchase warm clothing for winter. Helpers over here network so well and they know where all the bargins are.
FKKC, before you have a go at me, I happily give over and above to my helper, a practically new pair of runners, luxury bathroom items. Yes I provide her with air conditioning, heating, a nice fluffy dooner (duvet for those playing at home), bloody good food and lots of personal time off if needed. We also pay over the minimum wage. You have to draw the line somewhere.
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"we are not rich, but yes we can afford a warm jacket, but frankly i think so can she"
A bit of a blase statement to make, you have no idea how much she has to send back. Most FDH send everything except the bare minimum needed to survive here.
And from what I can see here she has not asked you for a jacket, you are telling her she should get one!
"She is your employee, not your child that you need dress. If she wants to send every cent home, then that is her perogative, but not at the sacrifice of not doing her job because she is too sick from not wearing warmer clothing.
"
A contradictory piece of advice. Do not treat like a child but treat like a child. She is not a child, she can make decisions herself. If she does not want to buy she does not want to buy. You cannot force her to!
"As I always say, nip it in the bud."
Nip what in the bud? The FDH has not requested anything, only the employer. That's what I'd nip in the bud, because what next? Must buy a Rolex so keeps your image up?
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yes she can make decisions for herself however her decision of not wanting to get warmer clothes would affect the family she is working for.
for one, if she gets sick - then it's up to the family to get her to the doctor etc etc . an ounce of prevention they say is worth a pound of cure
secondly, her performance will lag because she is sick she can't be 100 percent.
thirdly, if she gets sick - she can pass on her sickness to the family specially the kids specially if she does the cooking or handle food.
so long as her decisions don't affect anyone, then we should butt off but in this case it is and she should be told.
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by posting this thread i was truly seeking advice as to how to handle a subtle situation, not to provoke people to flare up. so calm down, evildeeds.
i said i think she can afford a jacket. i meant "afford", not "willing to spend". she told me she's now making three times her previous salary in a white collar job in the philippines. if she bought her own clothing before she came to hong kong, i would think even if she buys a jacket here (at a cheap place) she can still send money back home in an amount way more than what she brought home before. problem is even if she made 10k a month now she'd probably still want to send every cent home and not buy a jacket.
she has not explicily asked me for a jacket, but i felt the silent expectation, because we've allowed her to borrow things from us when she said she did not have this or that. as said in my original post, personal clothing seems to me a little too far and that's why i sought advice here.
i told her she needed to get a warm jacket because in reality she needed to. theoretically yes if she wants to get sick it's her choice, but since she lives with us (including a baby) i think i has some right to request that she pay attention to her health condition, just like i've always told her that she should immediately let me know if she does not feel good so that treatment could be sought.
finally i don't quite understand where you came from re the rolex
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agree miao, your kids are most important, and you need to have a safe and healthy home.
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cd
16 yrs ago
I still think that with christmas round the corner you could giver her a jacket/jumper, scarf etc as presents, nicely gift wrapped instead of money, which she is likely to send home anyway and still not buy herself some warm clothes.
I think they get so few gifts and being away from their families at xmas its nice for them to have something to unwrap.
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thanks cd for your advice. yes i had planned on giving her a gift at xmas for a long time. the thing is that she needs a jacket now which is hard to characterize as a xmas gift yet. again, concern is just don't wan her to get used to receiving freebies from us when she doesn't want to buy.
thanks everyone for your understanding and advice. will try to work out something.
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
miao miao,
I understand your point clearly but I can tell you also have a kind heart. Just this time as it's an emergency, do give her some old warm clothing from your closet that you wouldn't be wearing.........I am sure you will feel good after this gesture.
As for future freebies......I can't think of anything that will be of an emergency for your concern except an umbrella when she goes out shopping for you or on her day of rest(if it is raining).....give her an old umbrella if you can spare one and put the matter to rest. Later in the day, your helper if she is a good one will show appreciation to you with her work, if not, at least you've done a good deed.
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"so long as her decisions don't affect anyone, then we should butt off but in this case it is and she should be told."
I have written a note to all my staff in the office today that for winter they should buy cars and not travel by public transport. I will not provide their cars. But I want them to avoid any potential sickness and the chance they could pass it on to others who will pass to their families.
Anyone failing to comply and getting ill will be terminated immediately. Sounds right to me.
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miao miao, people are always going to flare up, that's why we always feel the need to justify what we say on these threads, like my reply to FKKC earlier. I too, am curious about the rolex, trust me if I had one I would be selling it to pay off my mortgage back home!
cd makes a good point about the gift, but then you are stuck with the early gift thing. You could perhaps buy her something like a jumper or jacket and tell her it's an early gift and then at Christmas maybe a box of chocolates as a token. But then if it doesn't sit right you then don't do it. I think what you are doing is right though and you need to go with your gut instincts.
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this thread is getting too provocative, not my intention. the reason why my helper (who's already having a running nose) needs to wear warm seems to have been well explained by wiz bang already. but just a quick reply to yep -- my boss never had the chance to think whether he should force me to wear warm, but we do have other office dress code, like almost all offices. i'm not sure why we as employers cannot ask helpers to wear reasonably warm when she goes out on her rest day so that she does not get sick and the home is safe for everyone. (for the sake of argument, i also ask my helper to maintain good personal hygiene, including wear clean clothes. not sure if that also seems outrageous).
maybe the discussion should come to an end
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If you do not want to spend a lot of money on clothes then go to a charity shop and pick up some stuff for buttons. Anything you spend take out of any Xmas bonus you would give her. Giving her a cheapo jumper or coat for Xmas is a great idea. I am sure you could pick up some cheapo coat and jumpers in Mongkok. Give her this instead of another Xmas gift.
Tell her, I am buying you X, but you must understand that this is because I don't want you to get sick and be off work if it makes you feel better.
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The reason why the thread is provocative is because people feel they can force what they want onto others. The joke about office dress codes and how most offices have it is just that a joke. For old financial companies, maybe, but for the majority of offices that went out of the window years ago. For those with dress codes you can bet that clothes being worn are a minute fraction of that persons salary.......
Overall she is an employee and is entitled to spend her money as she sees fit. Whether you agree or not is neither here nor there. That money could be for her child school uniform, you have no idea. That is the attitude that annoys people, the we know best. She is an adult and a mother. If you feel so strongly about it then do as people have said here and buy her a Christmas present.
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evildeeds, i still don't understand what's wrong with my attitude or that of some other people on this thread. i don't feel i "can force what i want onto others". this is a much narrower case, i.e., can i ask my helper to pay attention to what she wears in order not to get sick, which will affect herself, her work, and my family?
i wasn't forcing anything onto her. the scenario was like this: she came back with a running nose and said it's really cold outside. i said yeah winter is here so next time you go out you may want to put on something thicker. she said i don't have anything thicker. i said oh the weather will get even colder in the next 2 to 3 months so you really need to get a jacket to live through the winter. then she remained silent. that's when i felt her silent expectation for us to provide a jacket. given my past experience with her, i posted my inquiry here.
it's also not about how she generally spends her money. sure i don't restrict her right that way. i mentioned how she spends her money only to tell why i think she should be able to afford (not be willing to spend on) a jacket, which related to the question of whether i should provide one to her.
why is it my business? well, she either wears warm or she freezes herself for the whole winter and get sick all the time. as a matter of reality i cannot see that happen and ignore it. as a person i cannot see somebody remain sick at my home due to the lack of warm clothing and just let it be that way. as an employer this will affect my employee's job performance and my family's health. because of the concern that things may go out of control in the future (say her shoes are worn out tomorrow), i have been reluctant to just give her the clothing right away, but wanted to ask whether there are better ways to manage this kind of situation.
thanks again for other people who offered constructive advice, which is really helpful.
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
neenib,
I never intend to have a go at you. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and yours to the OP are very reasonable provided it works for her.
miao miao,
I know these threads are very touche and people should respect other people's opinions provided they are given in good faith and not trying to get into one another's throat. Each household has their different way of running their daily activities and people shouldn't judge too quickly or mark the line of yes or no. Some compromising in-between could & should be allowed. I know you have mixed feelings to give or not to give as you want to draw a line somewhere....
Well, do whatever you feel comfortable and go with your own decision based on the advices given from the above. The solution is not that difficult.
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evil
if you had a baby/kids or have a baby in the house, i guess it's ok for you that everyone can get sick and pass their sickness around just like a real family eh?
miao
make sure that she does not "abuse" your kindness. what next? her shoes have holes in them and she's expecting a dole out?
there is also a 2nd hand store in li yuen street called me and george - you might find something there too.
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Wiz Bang, I have 3 thank you, including a toddler. But I also have businesses and understand what it is to be a employer. So I treat my own helper like I do any other employee.
Employees in the office get sick because of their lifestyles but that is something I cannot change. Some drink too much, socialise too much, smoke to much which makes them prone to viruses and bugs. They make others sick, including me which does get back to our families. Is that ok too? Just like a real family!
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well i expect my employees to be responsible people and to take care of themselves. clearly in this case, the helper deemed it more important to send money home than to take care of herself
if one is tasked to look after the children, then one should observe guidelines to maintain their health in order to do their job properly.
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mayo
16 yrs ago
I am with evil on this one. If you have a problem with her work performance discuss it with her. As to how she spends her money it is 100% her decision. Aside from that being cold doesn't actually give you colds. It is just the virus more prevalent in winter months.
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mayo
16 yrs ago
You Won't Catch Your Death?
The truth, at last, about winter coats and the flu.
By Timothy Noah
Posted Wednesday, Dec. 5, 2007, at 1:24 PM ET
The Dec. 5 New York Times carries a Page One story explaining the link between cold weather and the flu, but it doesn't explain it quite fully enough. Citing an October study by four microbiologists at New York's Mount Sinai School of Medicine, Times reporter Gina Kolata (author of the strangely gripping Flu: The Story of the Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918 and the Search for the Virus That Caused It) writes that the influenza virus "is more stable and stays in the air longer when air is cold and dry, the exact conditions for much of the flu season." What Kolata breezes past a little too quickly for the lay reader is the relevance of this finding to the warning of mothers down the ages, "You'll catch your death of cold."
On the one hand, these mothers appear to be vindicated in the limited sense that yes, going out into the cold weather increases your risk of catching the flu. (It was long ago established that exposure to cold weather has no effect whatsoever on one's susceptibility to the common cold, which is different from the flu and caused mainly by something called the rhinovirus. Sorry, Mom!) But generations of mothers believed that the flu risk could be averted by wearing a heavy coat, sweater, mittens, scarf, and hat. According to this new study (which, I should point out, involved not humans but guinea pigs), even the most oppressive smothering of children in multiple layers won't protect them against contracting the flu.
This conclusion is of course implied by Kolata's focus on how cold air affects the flu virus, but she addresses the winter-coat question directly only briefly toward the end of her story. "There was no difference in their immune response," she writes, when the guinea pigs were exposed to lower temperatures. Here's how the authors of the Mount Sinai study put it:
innate immunity was not greatly impaired in guinea pigs housed at 5°C relative to those at 20°C. These findings argue against the idea that increased physiological stress experienced under cold conditions leads to a weakening of the immune response.
Translation: If you go outside on a cold day improperly bundled, you'll experience a heightened risk of being cold, but not a heightened risk of getting the flu, relative to others who go outside fully bundled. You will, however, experience a heightened risk of getting the flu relative to others who stay indoors. The best solution for parents is therefore either to imprison their children by keeping them indoors or to move to the tropics, where, Kolata reports, "there is not much flu at all and no real flu season." Or, alternatively—this is what Peter Palese, one of the study's authors, recommends—to get their children a flu shot.
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mayo, i've replied to evil several times so won't repeat what's been said. to simplify it more, my helper needs a coat now. she basically said so when she said she felt cold with her running nose. she's also expecting (silently, but i could not have got it wrong) that i give her one. so it's more of a question as to who (i or herself) should buy the coat than how she spends her money generally. either i give her a coat, or tell her that we don't provide it and she'll have to buy it herself, or, if she does not buy it, see her freeze herself in a miserable way.
i'll work something out based on people's advice.
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mayo
16 yrs ago
good for you hope you can work it out but with or without a coat she is at no higher risk of illness. to simplify it there is no connection between runny nose and lack of coat.
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miao miao,
i totally understand where u are coming from. in my experience we once had a helper who i had an issue with wearing inappropriate clothing during work. ie: super short tight skimpy tees which left nothing to the imagination when she raised her arm to reach for sumthing or dust the top of a shelf. i went out and bought her some longer tees and told her she was to wear those during working hours. what does she do. of the 6 tees i gv her she keeps 2 and sends the balance 4 to the phillipines!!!!!! i see her wearing the same 2 tees every alternate day and one day asked her why she didnt wear the balance and she wud make excuses like oh this was dry and i had ironed and it was ready thus i wore. to the point she wore them out so much that in a month one of them had holes! then i told her she was to tk out the rest and start using them cos i did not buy them for her to use as show pcs. to mysurprise she starts wearing the same one tee plus her own rubbishy tees which i had told her were not appropriate that i was so mad i told her i wanted her to tk those tees out of her closet and then she says she sent back to the phili cos she thought her sister would like them!! can u imagine? some of these women have no concept. tell her that if she gets sick due to not wearing the right clothing you will not be responsible and she will have to pay for doc and med and if yr kids get sick then shes fired!!! cos u warned her alrdy. i know i will probably get alot of bashing for being this bossy employer but like u i care for the well being of my family more than anything in this world. hpe u are able to find a solution to this.
my point to the ppl that hv suggested u getting her one does still not mean she will use it. like mine she may chose to send it to the phili!!
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Evildeeds and Mayo
It seems to me that MiaoMaio's concern is only superficially about coats and fundamentally about her employee's (lack of) responsibility for her own welfare.
It is all very well to be working in HK for your family but if you send all your money back to your family and expect your employer to pick up the slack because you can't afford to then you, as an employee, are failing in your basic obligations.
The employment issue is not whether or not she needs a coat - it is the helper's expectation that dressing appropriately for the weather is somehow the employer's responsibility rather than her own.
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mayette, if the helper feels the employer is not real... she can just resign.
it works both ways
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allright everyone -- i posted this thread not to complain about my helper, but to seek advice on how to handle a situation that i feel a little subtle. the more people replied, the more information and help i got, although also the more i need to explain about the background so that people don't go off topic or miss my point. so the thread got so long not because of a big fuss.
gill, bean and mayette -- i agree to all you've said in principle. just how those principles should apply to our situation depends on the facts and exprience we have. i have no problem giving my helper small things here and there and in fact have been doing so for the few months she's been with us. there are things (bag, stationary, cosmetic samples, etc.) we don't need but somehow get somewhere, we give to her. if we order pizza or something similar, we have her share it though we already give her food allowance (not the minimum) and rice, bread, milk, saunces, etc and she normally cooks for herself. she asked for salary advance several times and we always agreed. in short, i'd love to voluntarily give her some freebies from time to time.
other than the things we voluntarily give her, she also asks to borrow stuff from us from time to time so that she doesn't have to buy. we also have always agreed. when it came to our conversation about the coat the other day, i knew she wanted me to give her one as well. (well, i knew that from my experience with her, such as the way she looked at me). anyway, at that point i felt it's a little too far and something too personal. as gill said, "when you feel it is becoming a habit - all you have to do is tell her". that's exactly why i sought advice here, because i felt the stuation is kind of on the verge of becoming a habit. but given the item involved (warm clothing) and the use of it (to fend off coldness), i didn't want to just tell her a flat no. i basically wanted to either (1) let her know, in a nice way, that her personal clothing should in principle be provided by herself, or (2) give her a coat but make sure this does not further the habit i'm worried about. that's why i asked people what the best ways are to handle this.
i think i've got enough advice on this topic and really appreciate all that have replied. i think now i can handle this in a nice way. and for those of you that had questions about how we treat our helper (fair question, though, as this kind of topic always raises the image of bad, mean employers), you all can be sure that she'll continue to be well fed, kept warm, sufficiently rested, and continued to be provided with freebies that we'd like to offer. just that when she wants something clearly personal, we'll let her understand that she should look to herself first and we'll try to help if she has some true hardship (not just willingness to spend money) but not as a habit.
thanks again everyone
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