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ORIGINAL POST
Posted by mountain magic 11 yrs ago
My helper of 2 years decided that she does not want to renew her contract, which is due in August. She told me about it only when I asked her just a couple of days back. I took a written statement saying so as soon as she did.

I am working and currently have taken a month off work to be with my child. Now I have to spend all my leave trying to find a helper. I would like to find a new helper now and not wait until she finishes in August as it will be difficult when I'm working and I cannot leave my child alone with a total stranger. Legally, can I ask her to leave now without having to pay her a month's salary as she was the one who did not want to renew? I will pay her some money for expense. This is just to give me time to find a new helper before I get back to my job. I have a few new helpers who want to start soon. I dont want her to get into trouble too. But I know that if I terminate her within 28 days before the end of contract, it is not considered as termination, but is considered as completion. I also will be buying her her air ticket as per the rules. I am just wondering what to do.

Your collective wisdom in this forum is greatly appreciated.

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COMMENTS
asiaXdreamy 11 yrs ago
Look for finished contract ones. They can stay to work for you.

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pkw888 11 yrs ago
Mountain magic ... it sounds like your maid is finishing up her 2-year contract within the next 30 days, correct? If that's the case, then she is fulfilling her contractual obligations and thus NOT required to give you any "termination notice" ... just because you didn't bother to ask her sooner is not really her problem! Soo ... should you now suddenly decide to terminate her before her final month of completing her 2-year contract, and without any cause, then you will indeed be required to pay her the 30-day in lieu of notice (or you may simply let her complete her final month as she has intended to do all along, but either way she still gets paid) ... think this is clear in the regs.


Good luck with your new search!

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mountain magic 11 yrs ago
Thanks for your response pkw888

It is not like "I didn't bother asking her sooner" She was always telling me that she wanted to continue. It was only when I wanted to do the paper work that she said she didn't want to. I don't want her to get into any trouble anyways, but feel hurt that she could have told me sooner if she didn't want to. Anyways, there seems to be nothing to protect the interests of the employer in this whole system.

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pkw888 11 yrs ago
Thanks for the clarification, mountain magic, and although your feelings are understandably hurt for the reasons which you have described ... you are unfortunately also correct about "nothing to protect the interests of the employer in this whole system" bit ... sad but mostly true indeed! But the law of the land stands ... pay her that last month and bite your tongue while you go about finding a new maid & good luck next time!


BTW, please don't get me started, but the REAL problem with this current system in HK is simply that the VAST majority of the DH employment rules & regulations are written as if they are truly full-fledged citizens of HK, but of course in reality they are not! While I am a reasonably fair person overall, and always treat our DH's fairly and never overstep any laws whether we think it makes sense or not, just as I am now advising you to stick by the rules, it irritates me to no end each & every time I read up on the existing regs ... Arrgh!!

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maxis 11 yrs ago
Umm....many employers are spouses on dependent spouse visa, or people on work visas.


Actually many of us employers are Permanent Residents.


All of the above are not fully-fledged citizens of Hong Kong.


Only people of sufficient Chinese ethnicity who do not hold passports in other countries can be legally fully fledged HK Citizens.


So I wonder if you are a fully fledged HK Citizen PKW?


So dont get me started with your bigoted nonsence on an Xpat website, which by definition caters to persons who may not be fully fledged citizens of HK.


Comments like yours' reinforce.the stereotype of bigoted persoons who believe non citizens.of HK should not have access.to full industrial relations rights.


Also, by virtue of your statement, you are.saying non Chinese permanent residents (And those on.working visas or dependent spouse visas) should not have full m g al emplyment law rights eh? A bit of a rich comment on an xpat website dont you think?

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asiaXdreamy 11 yrs ago
Mountain Magic,


Let put aside the helpers' comments fight against each others.


Look for finished contract ones. They can stay to work for you.


If anyone say again want to continue, pass a contract to her to sign or sign any agreement.


No need to fool you twice by the lair who wish to take your words as back up choice.


Shame on her.

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hkwatcher 11 yrs ago
"BTW, please don't get me started, but the REAL problem with this current system in HK is simply that the VAST majority of the DH employment rules & regulations are written as if they are truly full-fledged citizens of HK, but of course in reality they are not!"


the above quote by pkw888 is exactly why the Labour Dept wrote the DH rules so that every helper will be treated fairly under the current HK Labour law. It is the same for all. The problem is that not many know the Labour Dept will help someone if they just call and ask for clarification. I an THRILLED that all people working in HK whether they are helpers or expats get treated fairly and without ANY prejudice as to what type of job they perform. These are rights that all HK citizens enjoy no matter where they come from.

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mountain magic 11 yrs ago
Thanks asiaXdreamy, hkwatcher, cara, maxis for your responses. I agree that all humans on this face of earth need to be treated equally.

But indeed, there is nothing to cover employers' backs here in HK if the helper who you treat like family decides to leave without enough notice. Of course, I am a law-abiding resident here in HK and am obligated to fulfil whatever is due according to the law. But in retrospect, I guess I am being the emotional fool here who treats the helper like family. I didn't realise that it all boils down to money and nothing else matters to a lot of people out there. We eat together at the same table unlike many households in HK who let the helpers eat leftovers or sometimes nothing at all. She is just like any family member in the house. Let bygones be bygones, I just realised that it does not work that way with everyone.

Anyways, thanks for all your comments and advice, it is sorted now. She has agreed to leave a few days earlier and I will pay her the money in lieu of her leaving early. And some extra goodwill money to cover her stay in HK besides the usual airfare, etc.

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NuinHK 11 yrs ago
I recently learned that if a FDH is dismissed with only one month left on the current contract, it is considered completion of contract, not early termination by HKID. Form ID407E is what you need.

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asiaXdreamy 11 yrs ago
Yes, mountain magic, I treated them fairly , and have a helper with me more than 15 years but still, there are lessons learnt from those nasty ones.


I believe that ALL of US ( employer and employee) should act in good faith as our deed reflect also the ethics and good being of employerS/employeeS.


As in your case, many employers were disappointed by treating people good with reward of disrespect...cheating and lies...


It really hurt not only that employers but also the employees in the future has this discourage the employers to inject much to the employees' side.


Vice versa, if you find a good helper, you should treat fairly and show appreciation.


If everybody act like this,


Pls, don't be the one to ruin not only your own credit but generate a bad cycle between employers and employees.


Shame on you ( bad employers and employees), God is watching!!

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pkw888 11 yrs ago
Mountain magic, very glad that your situation has been quickly resolved as both Cara and I have advised .. you are definitely doing the right thing both legally & conscientiously ... best of luck with your new search!



Maxis, is it REALLY necessary to resort to names calling? Just because I had agreed with Mountain magic’s sentiments and frustrations about the HK FDH regs not being well balanced for employers – which you apparently disagree with – does not make you right or give you the right to call anyone a “bigot” especially when unprovoked and unsubstantiated! Most importantly, this is an open forum for professionals to discuss and exchange many ideas, which must by definition tolerate diverse perspectives. We may disagree on various issues, and that’s the nature of this open forum, but as professionals we ought to be able to engage in a healthy discussion WITHOUT resorting to names calling!


You also asked some unusually personal questions! Yes, I am indeed a full-fledged HK citizen by birth, with dual citizenship, while also an expat due to my latest assignment in HK. Not sure where you got the “no two passports holder for HK citizens” misconception. Rest assured that this three combo is possible, as I am living proof and certainly not the only one around ... got lots of friends with similar status (eg Canadian, Finish, Swiss, etc).


But the bigger question is WHY is any of this even relevant? Hopefully not everybody in this forum needs to provide similar “proof” about all their personal info just to participate in this forum!


Last but not least, neither Mountain magic nor I even mentioned any specifics (about our frustrations regarding the HK FDH regs) because this clearly wasn't the primary focus of her original thread. If anyone else is interested in embarking on that subject, I would be happy to participate in a healthy and rigorous discussion ... but best to do that under a separate thread (and properly captioned for obvious reasons).

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maxis 11 yrs ago
sorry if you are.offended PKW 888.



No one called you a bigot, reference was made only to your bigotted nonsense if you may more accurately recall.


Also, as you will note, you were not asked any question, personal, unusual or otherwise.


Interesingly yet worringly, however, you have strongly asserted at you are a.fully fledged HK citizen (not sure if there is a definition in law of that) in support of your stance on unequal employment rights.


Be reminded that you commented as follows:


"BTW, please don't get me started, but the REAL problem with this current system in HK is simply that the VAST majority of the DH employment rules & regulations are written as if they are truly full-fledged citizens of HK, but of course in reality they are not!"


It is entirely irrelevant what passports you may have or not,.or whatever you think.you may be living proof of.


If you are fully fledged in HK by virtue of being born in HK, then by definition you are saying you are not a fully fledged citizen in whatever country you also hold a passport in respect of.


Which, means by direct inference that you are saying you should

not be entitled to equal employment rights in whatever country has issues you your second passport.


See how whenever people try to use birthright as a superior position of rights (which, of course, is a flawed and false foundation) it heads.down that equ4ally as ugly pathway of hypocrisy?


Of concern to every person who doesn't fall with your definition of "fully fledged citizen of HK" is that you strongly believe they should not be entitled to the rule of law as enjoyed by you.


Unfortunately for you and fortunately for everyone else, is that the Basic Law does not, in this case, support inequity based on nationality or citizenship. All people legally working in HK are subject to the employment ordinance and labour laws.


This protects people from bigotry, and as you clearly advocate for unequal rights.


So, if in view of the above you still think others deserve less basic rights than you based on their group, well yeah that would be a bigotted opinion.


Its up to an individual to either embrace equality and stamp out bigotry, or continue to encourage it. Fortunately for society, at present, your view is contrary to the law of HK.


We should all work together to stamp out inequality and promote equality for all, regardless of where we happened to be born or our nationality or race. Embrace others as our equals and the world will have greater harmony.

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pkw888 11 yrs ago
Maxis, apologies accepted ... thank you! Just a brief response here and we should really start a new thread on this new focus if anyone else is interested out of respect for Mountain magic whose focus is on something else. Thus my original "don't get me started" comment.


The most fundamental point is that no country - not even the most developed nations in the world like the US, the UK, the EU, Singapore, etc - confers the same rights to their temporary guest workers as their own citizens enjoy. I have lived/worked in about a dozen countries thus have first hand knowledge & experience in this aspect. Additionally, my statement was in specific reference to FDH's (which I believe is the main focus of this thread as intended by the original poster, Mountain magic) and not about expats (which I think is what you are talking about). And everyone here already knows that FDH in HK aren't provided "equality" by any stretch of one's imagination. For starters, their government controlled wages are set at several notches below the HK minimum rate ... etc etc ... yet as Mountain magic had correctly pointed out the larger body of the existing regs for FDH is mostly lop-sided in their favor at the expense of their employers (both expats & locals I might add). Many more examples may be cited, but again, that's best discussed under a newly captioned thread if anyone else has a keen interest in dwelling further into that.

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RevJim 11 yrs ago
Mountain Magic, I hope you were successful in finding a new
helper. I believe the reason your helper did not want to tell you she
did not intend to renew was out of fear of retaliation. If you look
through this and similar forums you will find many employers who have
posted looking for reasons to terminate a helper who did not want to
renew for various reasons. Helpers network and talk to each other as
well as read forums like this one. Your helper may have been worried
that you would find a reason to terminate her early. Unfortunately,
there are many stereotypes regarding helpers and employers.PKW888
I am an American and can tell you that citizens and guests in the USA
are conferred the same rights. The only exception is that some visitors,
such as tourists, are not allowed to work. Any person in the USA is
subject to the same laws and enjoys the same protections. A live-in
domestic helper in the USA working the same hours as a helper here in
Hong Kong would be paid at least $17,000 HKD per month. My mother pays a part-time helper $12 US an hour (92.40 HKD) to work a few hours each week. Please do not associate my country with those that exploit foreign workers.

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asiaXdreamy 11 yrs ago
Different countries have different standards and COST of living. The variation of wage doesn't mean other values that cannot be measured in monetary terms, although the wage in HK is actually the top amongst other labouring Asian countries. Different workplaces required different skill sets as well. In HK, every person is subject to same laws as well and there is no difference on the protection of rights. The tension between employers and foreign domestic helpers is created by the acts of few bad ones ( employers/employees) generated the gossip/rumour effects from one to another and in the forum like this here and in US an Canada. There are dozen of links blaming each other, here or there. The simple step to stop this maniac is to build up a more healthy relationship by understanding each others more rather than creating criticism to provoke.Employer has the reason to worry and angered by such irresponsible act as they hire for they really have the need to have someone to help, not to create trouble in their own home.Employee has the reason to worry and hide the fact as they are taught to protect themselves regardless of the need of the others, as they think that going away is wrong and would agitate the employers. Actually , a simple talk and advanced notice to smoothen the transition can help.Talk more with each other can solve this trust problem. And respect our own dignity by acting the righteous things.

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RevJim 11 yrs ago
AsiaXDreamy, you seem to have a problem with anything I post. I made the point that tension between helpers and employers is caused by stereotypes. You are basically saying the same thing I said.You also seem to object to my reply to PKW888 and stated that domestic helpers were given the same rights as other anyone in Hong Kong. That is not true. In Hong Kong Domestic Helpers are not protected by the same laws as other foreign workers. I can claim residency after working a sufficient amount of time in Hong Kong, a helper cannot. I can rent an apartment, a helper cannot. I can go anywhere I wish after my workday is complete, a helper cannot. Need I go on?Finally, the overall cost of living in Hong Kong is higher than the USA and room and board are taken into account in salaries in the USA as well. Helpers in Hong Kong generally work 12 to 15 hour days which would require 1.5 times the salary in overtime pay for anything past 8 hours in the USA and they must be paid for any time they are on duty whether they are actively working or not with the exception of their lunch hour. PKW888 implied that even the USA has different laws for foreign workers. That is simply not true.I am not trying to insult Hong Kong employers or their laws, but as an American I will correct anyone who claims the United States has different rights for foreign workers than for citizens.

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asiaXdreamy 11 yrs ago
No need to go on.  I work on the law issues with that. Under the HK laws, it is specially designed and not equivalent to other expat's working visa and rights. This is the basics, not to compare domestic helper contracts with other types of foreign workers' contracts.I worked in the U.S. many years ago before stationing at HK office.  You may quote, for easy reference, how much the McDonald food is priced.Read More, the land price here is going crazy , there is for the locals or the ones with rights of abode to consider or suffer.An also, the Immigration Policy , now chartered by Department of Homeland Security, is much tighter and harsh than that in Hong Kong for importing temporary domestic helper on special visa. The welfare and development is better in U.S. but the taxation and other livelihood factors are not totally comparable to other countries.We must, as we experienced working from one place to another, admit and accept the facts that, every place has its own beauty.  If one cannot adjust for living or fitting in to the current one, going to other place or return to home country is always an open option.

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asiaXdreamy 11 yrs ago
......

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