Posted by
jo_uk
13 yrs ago
Honestly I just don't understand people...I really don't. The number of people who seem to have to ask whether their live in helper should be allowed to watch TV, have a day off, eat with them etc. What the hell is wrong with you? So this person is good enough to look after your kids but you can't treat them like a proper human being? People can't have much respect for their kids either then. Jeez if I have a helper who is looking after us and my place and my kids that person is in my family and will be treated with kindness and respect. I often see expat kids treating the helpers like crap too. Do you not think it's tough enough on those girls as it is. Do you not think that for many of them they have their kids back home and would actually prefer to spend time with them. This is what's wrong with the world. People have no respect for eachother. It disgusts me.
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bla bla bla, when did you arrive in hong kong again?
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jo_uk
13 yrs ago
3 years ago....suppose I should have bought into the treating people like crap thing by now eh.
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agreed with cookie......blah blah blah......
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jo_uk
13 yrs ago
No I'm just wondering why that's all. I mean is it because a lot of expats reckon their are superior because they have more money? Is it a power thing?
Equally I just don't understand why is it that all the expats especially seem to moan so much about Hong Kong but not go off the HK Island much. All the people I meet seem to want to stay over there and don't learn any Cantonese or anything or explore around and meet locals. It's weird. I'm not having a go I'm just trying to understand why? I'm not saying everyone's like that but there seem to be a lot.
HK is a fantastic place and the Chinese have a great sense of humour and it's SO culturally rich. Plus it's SO near China for travelling I think it's a fantastic opportunity being here. Some people are never happy I suppose! Ah well!
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madre
13 yrs ago
jo_uk...as what you've said: Jeez if I have a helper who is looking after us and my place and my kids that person is in my family and will be treated with kindness and respect.
So, why don't you try to have one first then let us know if it is that easy to be nice. It's a two way street. If they are nice, it is much easier for the employers to be nice. Because sometimes, you try to be nice to them first, some of them abuse you. Give them your hand, they want your whole arm. You try to be a strict employer, i.e. emphasize how you want things to be done, you are a difficult employer. People are different and most of the time helpers refuse to accept the way we want things to be done and would insist to do things their way especially when the boss is not around.
It's always luck and not easy to find a good helper. But, if we can find one who won't steal, lie, hurt our kids and conscientious to do her work properly, someone whom we can really TRUST, then being NICE shouldn't be a problem.
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madre
13 yrs ago
We had a helper. She was not perfect and we're not, too. But, we still tried to be nice to her because at the end of the day, she's looking after our children while both me and my husband work. We gave her presents with or without occasions, took her out for a meal on her birthdays in addition to the present and a lai see. I helped her a LOT on the household. But, she still stole from us and lied both not only once. So, sadly, we had to let her go and start all over again...
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jo, I think you really need to experience having one yourself before you judge. I too agree that it is a two way street. There are good and bad employers AND there are good and bad helpers. I believe the majority are good employers AND good helpers. What you hear on the news are extreme cases.
Sometimes it isn't easy where to draw the line - do you treat her as a family member or an employee? If you feel she should be treated like a family member, is she allowed to then sit in front of the tv with her feet up whenever she feels like it and sleep whenever she wants? Will she have a right to decide on things in your household? If she's an employee, then yes, you'd hope she won't sit in front of the tv all day and you'd hope that she'll do her job. Your expectations on doing the job well could be different to others and here's where people judge. Some can't stand a messy house as long as they care for the kids well (like me). Some without kids don't mind if the helpers go window shopping daily as long as the house is clean because there's nothing else to do.
Whatever you decide, some will say you are a good employer. Others will say you are not. We all have different opinions. You really have to be in their situation to decide. Culture and family dynamics also come into play.
Beancurd, employers do complain about helpers but helpers also complain about employers! Husbands and wives complain about each other also. Bosses and employees complain about each other also! Sad but we all do it.
Bottom line is, nothing's new about what's happening. As long as you feel you treat people well, then you've done your part.
My helper tries to take the upper hand in everything and it drives me crazy. Whenever I try to talk to her about it, she gets offended. I've come to accept that that is the way she is because I'm younger than her, but there are times when I get upset with her because of it. She praises us as her employer but I'm sure there are times she criticises us as well. I don't treat her as my own property. She's pretty much her own person. She's free to go out to do her own shopping (clothes, buy phone card, banking etc) whenever she needs as long as I am home from work to tend to the children. And she plans her own work independently. Thing is, I have kids (one's a baby) and I work, so her life may not be as easy as another helper who may not need to look after kids.
So, I daren't judge other households.
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should see the way the locals treat them.
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TK
How do locals treat them...are you in their homes? What's your problem?
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Just from some of these replies it's easy to see why the helpers are treated so poorly: people have no respect and are rude. I agree with the original post. Every day I see a helper being treated disrespectfully by their employers. And, yes, think about the fact that you apparently think this person is good enough to take care of your own precious children but not good enough to be treated with a little common courtesy? Do you think that encourages her to be kind and gentle with your child? My heart goes out to the helpers who have had to leave their own children behind to care for someone else's. They are just as human as the rest of us and as deserving of courtesy and good treatment. If they lie and steal perhaps it's because they are treated so poorly and are returning the disrespect they are shown.
Treat people the way you would like to be treated. Things will go a lot better for everyone concerned.
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TK - this is the kind of throwaway line that we see often in these posts. Are you saying locals treat their helpers better or worse? and if they do and we should see, how do you propose we do that? Agree with Homely.
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I only logged in to report abuse by rakedavids123. I haven't been here for a while, and this isn't what I was hoping to see when I got back.
As for domestic helpers in HK, I agree that they are not treated respectfully in a lot of cases. I do see a lot of families with their helpers in my work, and I'm appalled at the way some of them are treated. Some not being the majority, but still a significant number.
As a side note, I've been to a number of countries, and I've never heard such openly expressed prejudice about any race the way the locals speak of other SE Asians. These sentiments are also not expressed by the majority, but it's still more hatespeak than I've heard anywhere else.
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i am new in hong kong. i do not have a helper. i agree with jo_uk...based on what i see in person when i am out and what i have read on this board. i am stunned at some of what i see and read. i am sure it's a two-way street and that employers have been treated badly, but at the end of the day, it's the terrible pay, long hours, lack of status/respect in the community, and cramped (no privacy) living conditions that lead me to believe this system is crappy. i can totally see how it can be a godsend for families with children where both parents work outside the home (considering there's almost no such thing as all-day school or group care for small children), but when it comes to the snotty folks that basically just want to be waited on hand and foot because they can and they can do so by paying someone a ridiculously pitiful wage (AND often treat the helpers like crap)...that's when i think the system is just plain terrible.
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I don't have a problem at all. I have quite a few local friends who have told me how acquaintances of theirs treat their helpers. No seperate room (some sleeping on the kitchen floor or on the floor in the kids/grandparents room, not paying minimum wage, no days off, no holidays and in some cases (many reported in the press) abusing their help physically. That is all.
I treat people the way I would want to be treated so I think my helpers have a pretty good experience with us. I just think you need to have perspective in all lof this. Having a helper is a massive plus in this part of the world. As many of you have said, if you trust them with your kids then you need to treat them right. I find that ours keep themselves very much to themselves especially as their room is bigger than any other helper accommodation I have seen. Mutual respect and there should be no issues.
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TK, how much do you earn compared to the locals? I'm willing to bet that you earn probably more than 4-5 times an average local earns, so of course you can have a pretty good size room for your helper. And with your income, you could probably buy her seafood instead of the very little food the locals can afford. Your comments are probably correct in a group of expatriates who generally earn more than the locals. An expat who earns even 20k a month earns more than the average hongkonger. So good on you that you can afford to live in a place with many rooms. Lots of locals can probably only afford a two bedroom apartment. If they have two kids in one of the rooms, it isn't by choice that they ask the helper to sleep outside in the living room etc. Sometimes they need two incomes (parents working outside) to keep a roof above their heads.
Bosses in HK also make their employees work REALLY hard. Lots of employees work overtime and they DO NOT get paid for it. Go ask the local auditors here whether they get paid for all the OT they do. Or the local teachers or the nurses or the IT workers.
It's the culture in HK where people are expected to work hard. It isn't just helpers... but everyone... the bosses, the employees, the helpers, the children......wages aren't that great either for an average local.
I am not saying that we should treat helpers badly or make them work long hours. I believe that we should all treat people with respect at all levels. What I am saying is that there are good and bad employers AND helpers. AND let's not be so quick to judge the locals when we're not in their shoes. I'm willing to bet that if they have the level of income you do, I'm sure they'll hire more helpers so that none of their helpers need to work so hard. I'm sure they'll pay double if they could to thank the helpers for looking after their kids and give them their own room with toilet facilities. And I'm willing to bet that there are bad expatriate employers also.
Some locals also put up with a bad helper simply because they do not have money to sack them, in the same why some helpers have to put up with bad employers.
And while I cannot say that the system here is perfect, where in the world is? And you're here right, so at least you are benefitting from the system here.
Before you all ask, I'm not a local.
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Well said madtown. Thumbs.
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"If you can't afford a helper, you should not get a helper. Simple as that."
Well, err.. it's the same as, if you are so dissatisfied with the locals, why come to Hong Kong and be tortured by living amongst people with values you do not understand or agree with?
It is human nature to want kids. They work hard to support their kids but because they are locals, they are on a different salary scale. Their affordability for helpers, apartments or anything is in line with the country's average. Just because they cannot "afford" the way expats do, doesn't mean that they should be ruled out from having a helper.
Most mothers, if given a chance, will not work but will stay home with the children. The reason why they go out working is because a single income cannot support the entire family and the mothers go out so that they can provide their kids with better future. The problem with expats is that you have all the money in the world so that your wives can stay home to look after the kids and share in the workload with the helpers. Or the wives earn so much working outside that your lifestyles are considered luxurious by local standards so that you can provide so much more to helpers.
"I can't afford a room for the helper, so I will stick her in the closet" Well, when you sign a contract, there are rules the employers must abide by in terms of size of the helper's accomodation. The majority will NOT stick their helpers in a closet. And having lived here, you should know how small apartments are and how expensive they are. Even a parents room, you can probably only fit in one bed and a wardrobe. So they also live in a "shoebox"- in expatriate terms.
And where have I said that we should not treat helpers as human beings? I am disgusted with people who mistreat their helpers but at the same time, I am also disappointed that some of you expats can think so lowly of the locals here when most are quite compassionate and humble. I am also disappointed that expatriates use their wealth and capabilities to judge the locals' affordability, knowing full well that even with the same level of hardwork they put in, their salaries will not match expatriates.
And I will say it again, there are good and bad locals, helpers AND expatriates.
And before generalising again, you should really get to know the locals more. Not just your well-to-do Chinese colleagues but those in the lower end. Ask them why they do two jobs and why they hire a helper. See if the majority really mistreat their helpers.
And yes, helpers prefer expatriates. Heck, I would too if I were a helper simply because expats have the money to provide so much more and the job's easier because they can have two helpers, a driver and the wife may be home to help out too.
Gotta repeat myself one last time - I believe helpers should NOT be mistreated, it is wrong. But I believe it is also wrong to generalise that HK Chinese treat them badly.
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GemmaW
You are so kind and fair. Every word you have written above is so true. Thank you for taking time and heart to understand the local scenes.
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I am with you, gemma! I am not sure how many people understand or interested to understand before they start judging.
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You guys should work hard and make more money, that way you can treat your helper better. You poor people live in your small houses should start making more money. Once you have money it can solve most of your problems as well as others.
I don't get why you guys don't leave your place of birth and where your family is to go earn more money. I left my country to come here to make money you should do the same.
Guess if I am a domestic helper or an expat.
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Quote from TommyKnocker "should see the way locals treat them" unquote
So you see madtown, gemmaW's statement wasn't directed at you. Why are you so determine to turn everything ugly. As I understand from some previous posts of yours, you had mentioned there's nothing in HK you like and you are here just for the money and you will leave when you got enough. No-one judge you on this so I hope you can try to be more tolerant on these touchy issues. Thank you.
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Ok, let's cut the crap. Of course there are good helpers, bad helpers, good employers, bad employers, as well as good kids, bad kids, good husbands, bad husbands, etc
Thing is, before coming to HK, I had never even had a cleaner, and suddenly I have to deal with the whole helper business. Of course it seems like a deal to have somebody full time taking care of your kid, your house, doing your laundry, etc for that little money in our western standard. But believe me, I would rather pay 10 000$ for day care, and a cleaner once a week than dealing with helpers. And this is the wage that the government set, there's no reason why we should feel bad.
I would consider myself as a pretty good employer: my helper is paid 5000$, she eats our food for dinner, she has a real bedroom as big as ours with a double bed, I am a teacher so she gets lots of holidays, I always say please and thank you, if that what a good employer is according to you...
Still, there are some times I feel like thinking, poor thing, I make 10 times what she makes, she had to leave her kid at home, but most of the times, I think "let's stop the charity bulls***". They don't have that bad of a deal!
How many locals have 5000$ of pocket money? a nice comfy bed, enough food, full medical coverage?
Recently I was asked to pay 7 grand to BUPA which would not cover an MRI that I needed when I was terribly sick and on the other hand, I have to pay for new teeth for my helper who decided at 46 yo to start an anorexia competition with the nextdoor helper and ruined her teeth. You know, in these occasions, I don't feel bad for them....
And please, remember that not all expats are bankers or pilots, I am not really an expat; ok I'm white and I wasn't born in HK but I have a local contract, and I have to live in a village on South Lantau to have a decent size house (still smaller than the one I grew up in with a baker dad and an unemployed mum in europe). And if I decided to come to HK it was not to make lots of money but to find somewhere safe and warmer (after living in London for 2 years). I don't think I take advantage of locals or anybody else; I think they are rather happy when I pay 200 bucks for a crappy dress at the market without bargaining!
And let's remember, even single mum I pay one monthly salary and a half of taxes every year and still you wealthy permanent residents are gonna get my 6000$ soon!
That's HK, not always fair, but we still like it.
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That's the problem with generalisation. Started in this instance by the OP. I'm comfortable that my helpers are treated well and are happy. Everyone hears stories and witnesses behaviour that leads to them to believe that everybody who has a helper raise spoilt brats etc etc. This isn't always the case and there are always mitigating circumstances.
A lot of people ask valid questions on this forum because they have no experience of employing a helper and little understanding of the culture and background of their employees. Cut them some slack rather than pillory them as the new slave owners.
If you honestly think that ALL helpers in HK, whether employed by an expat or a local, are housed according to the laws of the land - think again.
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Okay there's too many of these threads. My 2 cents below
1) There are many reasons to hire a helper - some expats hire them to make their lives easier but some do it out of more of a "necessity". But let's be real here, it needs to make economic sense. i.e if you are working a second job earning 2k more and your helper costs 3k, probably better to stay at home and do your own housework.
So at the end of the day, people should only hire helpers and I think they do because its a privilege / luxury that they can afford (the fact that they can't afford to be too nice is a cop out)
2) I am from the US - having a cleaner for $200 US a week seemed cheap and you come here and you can have someone clean yourhouse a week for like $50 USD ... I mean yeah I'm not happy with my cleaners sometimes (she burns my ironing, rips my clothes, breaks cups sometimes) but at the end of the day, sht happens
3) A helper is not family for the most part until they are. What I mean is - it's how oyou treat them. I know of my firends from HK who've had helpers for 20 years and I know people who go through helpers every 2 years. But I don't think any of you should generalize and criticize others for hwo they treat their helpers. And vice versa (some helpers don't wanan be your "family" / "friend")
I treat my helper as an employee - pretty simple. I give her a list of sht to do and she does it. If she does it well I thank her if not, i tell her how it is. Sometimes she charges me a bit more to get some more money out of me then fine - sht happens
4) Expat vs local nonsense - Are there alot of expats in HK? yes. Are they all "rich"? no. HOWEVER, the vast majority of expats - even the poor english teachers, make more money (or at least spends more freely) than the average local ... so let's all be a little real here. OF COURSE expats make more.
5) All of this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't believe in the cinderella / mis treated maid story nor do I believe in the nice / well meaning boss being taken advantage of.
If you're a dck to your help - you will probably get the same treatment back (they will lie to you, steal from you, or just quit). If you're nice, they'll be nicer. So there's no holy grail - its human relations - there's good, there's bad, etc.
Let's stay away from the broad generalizations because helpers are not a separate class of people, its just another job.
p.s - i don't have a live-in helper and my cleaning lady (professional / legal) that cleans makes more than a fresh uni grad (yes she clears close to 10k HKD a month haha)
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Oh I forgot to add - helpers generalize their employers too. And then they justify their behavior based on these generalizations - goes round and round
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No offence taken but I also dont understand why 'most' of the expatriates think that helpers live poorly in Hong Kong and feel sorry for them that they left their children behind in their home town. Do you know quite a few of them have their own helpers in their hometown looking after their children for them? My sister's helper worked for her for 4 years and left last year because (1) she needed to get marry (2) she had saved enough money while she was working Hong Kong to build a small house in her home town (3) using that money, she even managed to open a small shop to earn a living with her husband and her child. Do you also notice most of the helpers in Hong Kong have 2 phones? One is used to communicate with her employer and one is used to communicate with friends. So their lives are not so bad as you most think.
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Mighty has a good point. However I would caution that while some helpers are smart and forward-thinking enough to save their money in order to build a better life for themselves and their families, others squander what they make. Not that this is in any way the employer's responsibility.
Just be aware that helpers in HK are not starving unless they choose to be so, or they have a huge family with most members sitting on their bum-bums waiting for a handout. There are many such.
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Hi axptguy38
"some helpers are smart and forward-thinking enough to save their money in order to build a better life for themselves and their families, others squander what they make" I think your statement is true for everyone and not just the helpers. If you are more forward-thinking than others, you have a better life.
Madtown
"here is an idea, if you don't think there life is as bad as you think...become one for a year. Work 12-16 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 3,600 HKD and limited annual leave and than get back to be"....
Tks for your suggestion. In fact I am already more or less the same. I am working in the morning and a full time mum and housekeeper when the child comes home. I get up at 5:45 (need to prepare breakfast and lunch box for school) and go to sleep at 10:30ish. Working hours wise...similar to a helper. As for money wise, to be honest I dont think I get $3600 for myself every month. Of course, I have enough money given by hubby to pay for school fees and grocery shopping etc. Oh yes, I do have sundays off as well (^-^).
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Madtown, fact of the matter is markets are efficient, the helpers would not come here if the conditions (overall total package) were better back home - same goes for any expatriate. The fact that over 300,000 come here tells you something.
Another point, if miraculously another country changed their labour/immigration policies to let anyone or everyone in (because it needed citizens) with little by the way of barriers to entry, and the total package was better than HK, then trust me the 300,000 helpers would start moving on.
if you don't think there life is as bad....it is relative. Sure to you, life as a domestic helper may be atrocious, but it isn't to them, they know the alternate option is much worse.
here is an idea, if you don't think there life is as bad as you think...become one for a year. Work 12-16 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 3,600 HKD and limited annual leave and than get back to be
This is totally uncalled for. No one truly thinks that life as a domestic helper is a walk in the park, nor does anyone think that being a garbologist, sewerage plant worker, prison officer is what one dreams of becoming when you grow up. Everyone makes their own trade offs, and it is what they do with that pay that they derive pleasure from. Other people are luckier they love their job and get paid for it. Life is unfair, you just do the best with the hand dealt to you
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