Min wage for DH - HK$6864!?!? | Hong Kong Forums | Advice for Expats in HK

Posted by Happy Mummy 15 yrs ago

I have been away for a bit. I return to HK to read in horror that the Federation of Asian Domestic Workers' Union has siad that min wage should apply to foreign maids and suggested a rate of HK$6864. Are they for real!?!?

Oh, and food allowance is now raised to HK$740 from HK$300! (I actually agree that no one can live on HK$300 a month for food but to raise it officially to HK$740 is quite a jump and it effectively put the minimum wage of helpers to HK$3580+HK$740=HK$4320...)

It was widely reported in SCMP that these days, fresh university graduates count themselves lucky if they can find a job paying HK$6000-7000. And the job is certainly not going to come with accomodation, utilities, food, etc.

Does the job at McDonalds that pay min wage comes with the above? If not, why should domestic helpers be considered on par with the average workers for minimum wage? Surely it can only makes sense if we pro-rate the cost of their room, food, utilities, etc into their total wage (ie. they pay for their own accomodation/utilities/food), especially since all of these things are required by law to be provided for? Else would not it become positive discrimination towards the domestic helpers?

Correct me if I am wrong.

The more I am thinking about this issue of the employment of domestic helpers, the more questions are popping up in my mind:

If the domestic helpers want so much to be considered like the average worker, why is it their job does not come with probation? Why is it all employers except employers of domestic helpers allowed to stipulate a probation period in the contract?

When we interview for a job, we will certainly be asked to demostrate our ability eg. an equities analyst position may be required to present a stock recommendation, a manager a business plan, a chef to demostrate cooking several dishes, a tailor to sew something. But yet it is illegal to ask a person interviewing for a domestic helper position to do a try-out and clean the house or cook a dish?? (For those of you who do not know, it is illegal. Under the Labour Ordinance, you can only interview a maid but not ask her to do any trials.)

Essentially, unless you are getting a recommendation from a close friend, employers of domestic helpers have to hire very much on blind faith which means most employers are inviting virtual strangers into their homes and giving them access to everything most intimate and personal such as everything you own in your home, your children and food that you eat!! The employee has great potential to do grave harm!! How many stories have we heard of nightmare helpers putting bleach in baby's milk, spitting into the food as they cook, stealing, laziness, and even killing the employer!! Why is it that employers are not given even greater power and ability to better assess the quality of the candidate before hiring? Surely this is contradictory to common sense or am I seriously missing something here?

Back to the minimum wage issue. Given that there is such a wide range of helpers and hence abilities, I think there should not be a flat minimum wage to apply to all. While it would be hard to find a university/post graduate who would apply to work as a cook at Cafe de Coral, there is as many university grads as those who barely went to school applying for position of domestic helpers. Perhaps a better idea would be to tier whatever new minium wage that would be proposed for helpers?

Oh, and have those who are pushing for the new minimum wage to be applied to domestic helpers forgotten that well over 50% of all domestic helpers in HK are doing parttime work illegally at rates starting from HK$50 an hour and going to as high as HK$85??? As far as I know, that is a lot higher than the proposed minimum hourly wage which is somewhere in the HK$20s to low HK$30s from what I last read. So in that sense, most of them are already paid for part of their work way above whatever new minimum wage to be legislated! (Given that the policing of illegal parttime work by domestic helpers is almost non-existent, it is fair that we acknowledge such illegal work as permissible quasi-legal work..)

Of course there are some super helpers who are kind, hardworking, capable, great with children, super chefs, blah blah. But do a proper poll of a large enough sample of employers and I dare bet that a big majority of employers find it hard to find a good decent honest worker. Hence, I think we should not be thinking only about the upside of rewarding a good helper (i am sure if you have one, you will know she is worth her weight in gold and would pay her according to keep her working in your household) but to protect employers who have so little power in the hiring of, I would say, the most important employee ever.

I know there are scores of domestic helpers and selected persons employing good helpers on asiaexpat and who are reading these columns so I guess I should be expecting hate mails.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

In my opinion the government could maybe start by going after those people who aren't paying the minimum wage today. There's no point raising the minimum if a large number of employers will ignore the new number just as much as they are ignoring the current one.

hkwatcher 15 yrs ago

Let's take your basic amount of $4320 per month and look at it. I will not address your other comments, but just this one.

Consider 24 working days per month at about 10 hours per day and the hourly wage is $18 per hour. This is still below the proposed minimum wage.

This is far less than McDonalds at the current $50 an hour. Consider also the fact that McDonald workers can go home to their own house and their own room and not share it with children. Also on their day off they can make their own decisions on what time to come home. Don't you think this puts some of your comments into a different perspective?

tpol 15 yrs ago

BTW, do DMH get the $1000 MPF monthly contributions?

beachball 15 yrs ago

Without taking sides in the debate of whether DHs deserve a higher wage (whether fixed or minimum), the OP's message contains many dubious assertions and untruths. Listing just a few:

1. "If the domestic helpers want so much to be considered like the average worker, why is it their job does not come with probation? Why is it all employers except employers of domestic helpers allowed to stipulate a probation period in the contract?"

Probation is not really relevant, given that one can terminate a DH easily and without cause by giving one month notice (or pay in lieu).

2. "When we interview for a job, we will certainly be asked to demostrate our ability eg. an equities analyst position may be required to present a stock recommendation, a manager a business plan, a chef to demostrate cooking several dishes, a tailor to sew something."

Many positions throughout the economy are filled based on interviews, qualifications/certifications, and references/reputation rather than demonstration of abilities/capabilities (e.g., I have never ever heard of a candidate for a equity analyst position being required to present a stock recommendation). In any case, it is not capabilities that ultimately matter but performance - and the latter can only be observed after the hiring/on the job.

3. "Essentially, unless you are getting a recommendation from a close friend, employers of domestic helpers have to hire very much on blind faith which means most employers are inviting virtual strangers into their homes and giving them access to everything most intimate and personal such as everything you own in your home, your children and food that you eat!! The employee has great potential to do grave harm!! How many stories have we heard of nightmare helpers putting bleach in baby's milk, spitting into the food as they cook, stealing, laziness, and even killing the employer!! Why is it that employers are not given even greater power and ability to better assess the quality of the candidate before hiring? Surely this is contradictory to common sense or am I seriously missing something here?"

The position of DHs is not unique in that respect (other than having somebody sharing ones home). In fact, my PA at work almost certainly has the potential to inflict much greater financial and professional harm on me, considering her access to my personal information. And my PA was hired based solely on interviews and references as well...

In short, whenever one hires somebody to perform important or sensitive tasks (whether it is to manage finances or prepare food) one needs to exercise a degree of care - caveat emptor.

And “How many stories have we heard of nightmare helpers putting bleach in baby's milk, spitting into the food as they cook, stealing, laziness, and even killing the employer”? The answer is not many – and even fewer of these are reliable or confirmed reports.

4. "...well over 50% of all domestic helpers in HK are doing parttime work illegally..."

What is the source for this? In my opinion, this statement is almost certainly false.

5. "...at rates starting from HK$50 an hour and going to as high as HK$85??? As far as I know, that is a lot higher than the proposed minimum hourly wage which is somewhere in the HK$20s to low HK$30s from what I last read. So in that sense, most of them are already paid for part of their work way above whatever new minimum wage to be legislated!"

That is not correct. Even if all DHs have the option to do "quasi-legal" or "illegal" work at higher hourly rates, it is highly unlikely that they would reach the proposed minimum wage on weighted basis. It is simple maths...

6. "(Given that the policing of illegal parttime work by domestic helpers is almost non-existent, it is fair that we acknowledge such illegal work as permissible quasi-legal work..)"

This statement is definitely false. Just look at the statistics for DHs who have had their visa terminated (and will not be able to obtain another one in the future) for working illegally.

7. "But do a proper poll of a large enough sample of employers and I dare bet that a big majority of employers find it hard to find a good decent honest worker."

This is demonstrably false. Easily refuted by the number of DHs retained/having their contract renewed vs. those terminated and replaced.

8. "...but to protect employers who have so little power in the hiring of, I would say, the most important employee ever."

This is just polemic. Employers have plenty of power both in the hiring process and the ongoing employer-employee relationship - it is just a question of using this power diligently.

And while our DH is valued and important member of our household, she is FAR from being my most important employee, let alone my "most important employee ever."

“I know there are scores of domestic helpers and selected persons employing good helpers on asiaexpat and who are reading these columns so I guess I should be expecting hate mails.”

You should expect people to take issue with some of your unfounded claims and judgments.

punter 15 yrs ago

Or you can wait for the 45-year old amah from the mainland. They might be coming soon. Are their wages also going to be the same?

It's simple really. If you don't like FDHs, don't hire one. Well, I understand that the OP is not against having FDHs per se, it's the minimum wage she's not in favor with.

If you have one now and makes it possible for both husband and wife to work, you can fire the FDH and one (either the husband or wife) can do the FDH work at home.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"also, do you really want someone making minimum wage that has the responsibility of raising your kids ?"

A very good point. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

cd 15 yrs ago

I think if the wages went up that much a lot of Hker's would struggle to afford a DH, and a lot of them will lose their jobs.

punter 15 yrs ago

This debate is for nothing if the HK Govt doesn't approve the same minimum wage for for FDHs as the cleaners, guards, etc which I think is what's going to happen.

If FDHs can't gain residency after 7 years of continuos stay in HK, they too may not be granted the same minimum wage as the other workers.

duncan 15 yrs ago

The OP doesn't seem to realise that by raising the min wage for DHs, fewer people will employ one, meaning that fewer families will be exposed to the potential dangers of having knife-wielding child poisoners in their homes. The Govt is therefore doing us all a favour. I am grateful to OP for filling me in on the dangers - i really thought I was safe at home. What you are really saying is that if we had to pay domestics a real living wage, you couldn't afford one - welcome to the real world. Let me also agree with punter 'if you dont like FDHs, don't hire one.' Simple really!

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"DHs, fewer people will employ one, meaning that fewer families will be exposed to the potential dangers of having knife-wielding child poisoners in their homes."

Good one! :D

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

the hk gov't is looking into allowing mainland chinese to come to hk as domestic helpers...

maybe they will have cheaper rates than fdh.

kittycat2 15 yrs ago

The argument about local graduates, bla bla bla, is irrelevant too. How many locals would take a DH position? How much money would it take?

Happy Mummy 15 yrs ago

HKWatcher: If DH pays for and gets their own home, they too can stay in their homes after work. And you don't get paid HK$50 an hour at McDonald's. There was a SCMP article a while ago which polled the wages at the fast food chains (McDonalds, KFC, Cafe de Coral, Maxims). It goes all the way from HK$18-$25. That is exactly why there is this call for minimum wage to be legislated. Various lobby groups are pushing for HK$25-33 an hour depending on if they represent employers or employees. If DH pays for and gets their own home, they too can stay in their homes after work.

Beerboy: are you one of those who passes on the responsibility of raising your kids to your DH? I have two helpers at home and I take care of my infant child on my own. I do all the bathing, the changing of diapers, the cooking, the putting to bed, the cuddling. Raising children is the responsibility of the parents. Helpers are there to HELP only. I said in my initial post that if one finds a great helper, one should definitely pay well above the minimum wage. But the minimum wage should not be raised as that will blanket cover all helpers whether they are good or otherwise.

Beachball: you are missing many my points.

1. Being able to terminate with one month's notice is a termination of contract. It is different from being on probation, not getting employment confirmed and terminating with 7 days' notice. My point is why are probation periods not allowed in DH's contract?

2. Do abilities not lead to performance? Of course, not necessarily and not always the case but certainly one judges and hires based on (perceived) abilities and demostratable skills and hope for performance? Are you one of those managers who just hires based on a nice CV? You make me laugh when you say you have never heard of a candidate for an equity analyst being asked to present on a stock. Perhaps so, if the hiring manager is lazy and not doing proper due diligence, or the analyst is ranked and wellknown in the market. Otherwise, certainly it would be the first question in an interview.

3. Sure, your PA can possibly do you some financial and professional harm but it is unlikely that she can harm you and your family physically. Physical safety and comfort is a primary concern and comes above financial or professional concerns. How would you feel if your PA has the opportunity to ill-treat your children without your knowledge?

4. How much have you dealt with helpers in real life? Have you spoken much to your colleauges or friends whether they have parttime help?

5. Eg. 4 hours day at a median rate of $65 an hour 6 days a week makes $6240.

6. What is the statistics? Do you have it? Do share. I dare bet the percentage is a tiny one of the entire DH population.

7. Again, do share the statistics. Otherwise, you are merely stating unfounded claims and judgements.

Punter: I am in favour of a minimum wage. I am just not in favour of RAISING the minimum wage.

Kittycat2: you should perhaps pick up an economics textbook and read on the evolution of economies. Every economies, the more wealthy/developed it is, the more it uses foreign workers for the 'lower' value-added jobs. In a sense, it is irrelevant how many locals would take a DH position and how much it would cost.

Thank you to those who came up with constructive comments such as that the government should be focusing more on ensuring that employers are indeed paying minimum wage to the helpers, the hardship on lower income families if the minimum is raised, the snowballing effect, etc. Let's have more of these constructive comments and suggestions please. Particularly from readers who actually are in close contact and managing DHs.

PS. I hire two DHs for a household of 1 adult and 1 child. And both are paid well above the minimum wage. Comments like "If you don't like FDHs, don't hire one!" and "If you wanna play, you gotta pay!" are sadly pretty pathetic.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

I do agree that raising the minimum wage could cause problems. If tens of thousands of helpers are let go because their employers can no longer afford to keep them, I daresay that is not a good outcome for helpers and for the HK economy. As I said before though, those who do not pay the minimum wage now will simply ignore the new level.

1. "My point is why are probation periods not allowed in DH's contract? "

Because helpers have very little real protection in the workplace. They often pay a lot of money to an employment agency to get a job. If they have to start the process all over it can be a big burden on them.

3. "How would you feel if your PA has the opportunity to ill-treat your children without your knowledge?"

Sure, there is that risk. However, relative to the number of helpers the instances of child abuse are probably quite few. Knowing your helper and your child is the best defense.

Ausman 15 yrs ago

"PS. I hire two DHs for a household of 1 adult and 1 child. And both are paid well above the minimum wage. Comments like "If you don't like FDHs, don't hire one!" and "If you wanna play, you gotta pay!" are sadly pretty pathetic. "

Two DHs for one adult and one child!! the last three words of the above paragragh sum it up I think!

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

Whether the OP wants to hire 2 or 5 helpers is really his/her concern. If nothing else, he/she is creating jobs.

"And I don't beleive the maids should raise the children here but thats reality for the majority."

Indeed. Also I don't think that not having a helper makes bad/absent parents somehow better at being parents.

duncan 15 yrs ago

Happy mummy. I am amazed that given your intital diatribe about the disadvantages of having total strangers mess with your stuff, etc. you then say you employ TWO. Do you also employ a security guard to keep an eye on them, given what they might do? Or perhaps you are one of those trusting souls who switches on a hidden camera when you go out.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"Less domestics helpers is a good thing for Hong Kong families."

Why? You can't just throw out that statement without qualifying it. What exactly is better about fewer helpers?

"So it is nowadays called "hardship" if you can't afford to hire a domestic helper?"

Certainly, if their total income decreases when they cannot both work.

cd 15 yrs ago

A lot of you are so quick to assume, that people that employ DH helpers do nothing in their house, and leave the helpers to do all the childcare. Whilst thats true is some cases, its not true in most. What about all the people that employ DH to look after elderly parents, and care for them in their own homes rather than residential homes. What about people like myself who employs a DH to help care for a disabled dependant. One of the reasons we have stayed so long in HK is that we can afford (just about) to have a Dh, which means our disabled son can stay at home and live with us, rather than in care, if the minimum goes up too much we would struggle even more than now.

Don't assume that all employers of DH's are rich, fat cat expats, many are not.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

beerboy, uncalled for. We all make choices. Some mothers choose to work and get a helper so that they can. This does not automatically make them bad mothers or child abandoners. Some mothers certainly fit that description, but others spend as much time as they can outside of work with their kids.

"Many children are 'Maid raised' and cannot do the simplest of tasks for themselves, I have witnessed this time and time again."

In my opinion bad parents will be bad regardless of helper or not, and good parents will be good in either case as well.

backdoorman 15 yrs ago

Those domestic helpers that are taking care of children while their parents work have a lot more responsibility than someone employed at Mcdonalds. Shouldn't that responsibility be reflected in their salary?

Maids do not receive any sort of benefits. In fact, they are really in a disadvantaged position. They leave their family to try to make a better life for themselves and their loved ones. If you think that this a choice that they are really happy with, you are seriously mistaken. Coming to Hong Kong is out of derperation. I know that others will argue that they are in Hong Kong due to financial obligations and to provide a better life for their family but I think that the point that many forget is that domestic helpers have to live with a family. This means no privacy, no time for themselves and no real quality of life. You don't see domestic helpers in Central quaffing a few beers after a hard day of work. They have to get to bed so they can get up at 6am to wash the boss' car before he/she goes to work. Domestic helpers can work here for 20 years and never have the chance to become a permanent resident. Why? Another disadvantage. I really don't think that 6864HKD is outragous. Having a helper is a priviledge, not a right. Many people in Hong Kong forget that. There has been so many generations raised by helpers that people have become useless. Raise your kids! Clean your house! Cook for yourself! Stop complaining that you can't! Reality check!!!

cd 15 yrs ago

It must be lovely to be so holier than thou beerboy. Just for your information, some of us do manage to raise our own kids even though we have a helper. I do the family shopping, cooking, washing and ironing, plus 95% of the childcare. Having no family in HK it really helps having an extra adult in that house, so you can visit the dr, dentist, leave a sick child at home when picking up another one, and god forbid the decedence of being able to visit the hairdresser without a child in tow. In the UK there is limited need for DH's as people have family, creches, day car, after school and breakfast clubs run the schools to rely on.

I take it from reading you posts that you don't have kids.

788 15 yrs ago

Cara, cd- ignore the silly comments- its not worth your time to respond to them. Even if there was a culture here of day care, these guys would still slam any woman out there trying to do the right thing for her family or herself. I don't know what era these guys want women to live in. I am very happy to be here in the now- being able to have the education, respect I have had and being able to use that education not just for myself, but rest of the community and particularly my family. I work- I don't feel guilty AND whatever anyone may mouth off, ##lls to them (I don't need to be liked/ respected by every single troll out here)- I am still a very good mother. Cheers to us!

Happy Mummy 15 yrs ago

Bravo 788!! I totally agree. Forget the clowns whose levels of intellect are so low and views of the world so shallow and one-dimensional that they can't make any productive and constructive discussion. It is just unfortunate that they seems to have so much free time on their hands to post inane comments. Strange as from the sound of their posts, they are supposedly cooking, washing and ironing for themselves as well as bringing up their own kids!?

Huggy: not quite sure what the relevance of a comparison of UK is for our discussion. One can easily point to say China where a domestic helper gets RMB500 (if she is very lucky) and works 7 days a week all year round except for chinese new year holiday and national day holiday (again, if she is very lucky).

We lived in a world of open economies. As much as there is free flow of goods, there is free flow of labour. All of these guys who are so righteous in wanting to have FDHs paid on par with locals, how about we all pay for goods made and imported from lower cost countries the same as if the goods are made in HK??

And once again, no one is saying that if you have a great helper who can do a fantastic job and is capable of raising your kids that you should not/cannot pay more. You should! But for FDHs to be included in the min wage legislation for local workers when their jobs come with free accomodation, food, etc is a whole different issue.

Ringo23 15 yrs ago

Now that it's turned into men vs women there will be no more productive and constructive discussion.

Sad really. Seems we never learn...

Ringo23 15 yrs ago

"Getting men to change their views that a woman should be kept barefoot, pregnant and tied to the kitchen sink is still an ongoing quest. ;-)"

And one that people like you keep setting back many years.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"Raise your kids! Clean your house! Cook for yourself! Stop complaining that you can't! Reality check!!!"

How about letting me choose how to live my life. Judge if you must, but it's not really about "can't". We feel that our kids' lives are actually enriched by having a helper. Not because she is their servant, but because she brings yet another perspective to child rearing, and they learn a lot from her.

As I said before, a bad parent will be a bad parent regardless of helper. If the parent chooses to be "absent" and emotionally withdrawn, not having a helper will not change that. Conversely, a good parent will be present, warm, caring, hardworking in child care with or without a helper. We feel that we can spend more quality time with our kids because we have a helper. Isn't that worth something?

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"With the figures fast approaching a quarter of a million"

We're there already. The last figure I saw was just north of 251000.

iyagul 15 yrs ago

Who ever have higher salary they can offord to pay domestic helper HK$3,480. like me my family average income is HK$20,000 per month. My children's school fee, their expense, house rent, food, needy shopping, medical exp etc hardly i can manage up to end of month. i can't offord domestic helper so my mom helped me to lookafter my kids. so, that i don't have to pay her.

in the other hand, there is lot of people whom i know, their minimum income is HK$12,000 including husband & wife. if she stay at home for her kids only her husband earn HK$6,000 to 7,000. How she will run the house with this money? if she wish to join work, she can't pay DH's salary. every point of view like us poor people are in trouble. if the domestic helper salary increase up to 7,000 than the HKSAR government should think about local residents minimum wages. The gov have to setup minimum wages rate for local resident should be 15,000 per month than they can think to raise DH's minimum wages.

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

i don't think it's anyone's business to question why one hires a domestic helper.

as each one has their own valid reason whether we agree or not.

and it's not like the chinese were self reliant too. they had their own history of dependence on domestic helpers = take for example mui tsai (?) - those young female bond servants of yore.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

Agreed with Wiz Bang. Also, one need only look at Europe not so long ago to find indentured servitude and live-in servants among the not so terribly rich.

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

and may i also add that in traditional chinese families, a daughter in law is supposed to be obedient and subservient to her husband's family specially her in-laws to the point of being a servant and taking care of the household (inc. cooking, cleaning etc) ...

talk about getting some sort of free domestic helper when a son marries (and this is regardless of one's status or wealth) !!

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

what's wrong is that not only she serves her own household but she is expected to be the household help of her husband's family too, and to take care of her in-laws in their old age. (and in rural china, a married woman is also expected to work in her husband's family's rice fields or business)

women have the same rights as men to live their lives and pursue their own dreams even when they're married. and if it means that they have to hire a domestic helper to be able to balance all of these - then so be it.

it's old school to think that women lose (or should lose) their identities once they're married and be selfless and be devoted in serving her husband, her family and her husband's family 24/7.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

Indeed Wiz Bang. You also have cases where the woman is the breadwinner and the husband doesn't work. All part of the modern age.

Sensei 15 yrs ago

I sense so much selfishness in this post. Please everyone, consider everyone else's needs and wishs. Being a human is difficult at most. Being a mother is even more so. Love your children and let your helpers see this. Then, no matter the cost, your helper will know that this is a family that is worth loving.

lucybrown 15 yrs ago

What is the government's aim in raising the minimum wage of helpers? Is it because the government wants to protect FDHs (as some on this post seem to be advocating) or to protect the local labor (including those coming from China in near future)? Why would HK help to benefit the Philippines when it can help to benefit China? Isn't this one of the easiest ways of making the transition from FDHs to Chinese helpers? Yes, English will be a problem for expats, but who cares? Most expats can afford to pay $6K+ for FDHs, and most local Hong Kongers would not have communication problems with Chinese helpers.

The other thing I find interesting is that if the Chinese nationals will be granted visas as domestic helpers, would they be categorized as FOREIGN DHs (and hence get $6K) or a special category under which they will be exempt from the min wage requirements. This is possible given that the government is likely to be sympathetic to local Hong Kongers who must work and need domestic helpers. So people like Cara is likely to be able to continue to work and make important contributions to the society. (I have no doubt Cara is a good mother based on many comments you have shared on this site.)

I'm not sure that the debate is whether FDHs deserve higher pay or not because the answer is always going to be somewhere along the lines of supply and demand, so it may be, what the consequence of the increased min wage will have on FDHs. And that does not look pleasant for FDHs as a whole.

Often times, when a government makes a regulatory ruling, there is an intended outcome in mind.

bawlucks 15 yrs ago

Very interesting discussion!

I dont see how anyone can say that domestic helpers in HK only deserve more than HK$3580+HK$740=HK$4320

For the amount and type of work they do. Sometimes leaving their children and families to better provide for them.

Happy Mummy-how can you rant as much as you have about these wages when you have one child and a husband, and you hire TWO domestic helpers? That really takes some nerve.

This is not about women working, obviously. or whether or not youre a good mother. But, you need to live within your means and if they do decide to raise the min wage, you need to make a decision as to whether you let one or both go. But please dont think about making the argument that they dont deserve more than HK$3580+HK$740=HK$4320. Have some respect

Happy Mummy 15 yrs ago

Bawlucks: read my posts carefully. 1. I do not pay my helpers min wage. They get significantly (over 30%) more than min wage. 2. Why I need or want two helpers is none of your business. 3. Currently, FHDs are already and obviously protected by a min wage law. It is local labour that do not have min wage protection right now. I am questioning the rationale behind the push by FDHs to be included in the min wage legislations for LOCAL labour FROM A GENERAL PERSPECTIVE. Gosh, is your mind so small that you think everything has to come from one's own selfish standpoint!?

bawlucks 15 yrs ago

youre the 'happy mummy' ranting and raving on and on about the wages of maids in HK.

And you have two... that's humourous to me. sry

you must watch them cleaning up your toilets and ironing your socks in such rage at how much theyre costing you! oh the nerve of these ladies!

in your words...

"Oh, and food allowance is now raised to HK$740 from HK$300! (I actually agree that no one can live on HK$300 a month for food but to raise it officially to HK$740 is quite a jump and it effectively put the minimum wage of helpers to HK$3580+HK$740=HK$4320...)

It was widely reported in SCMP that these days, fresh university graduates count themselves lucky if they can find a job paying HK$6000-7000. And the job is certainly not going to come with accomodation, utilities, food, etc."

You seem shocked that maids could get 6 or 7K for cleaning houses and taking care of rotten kids 6 days a week. food allowances raised to $740 a month deserves exclamation marks in your world. sad

all im saying is try to imagine a world outside of your own

selfish..... hmmmm. yah

for you to take the time to write a book on here, initiated by the potential raise in maid's salaries is pathetic in my small brain's opinion.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

I don't see what the problem is really. With the DH laws, HK is a great boon for these women. Raising the minimum wage is not devoid of problems, even for the group getting a raise.

As dcnoble says, if a lot of DHs lose their jobs because of a raised minimum wage, is this really a good thing?

Susie1 15 yrs ago

Maybe if this pay rise is to go ahead, immigration should also change some of their rules, only allowing quality workers in, making it easy to weedle out the bad ones.

There will be a lot of FDH's loosing their jobs, because I also read in the SCMP a few days ago that mainland Chinese are also being trained to do DH jobs, if this happens, and I think it will, there will be more competition, and will the mainlanders be allowed to live out?, in a boarding house? that would make them more attractive to employ.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"Maybe if this pay rise is to go ahead, immigration should also change some of their rules, only allowing quality workers in, making it easy to weedle out the bad ones."

What makes you think Immigration is better at deciding than employers? I think not. In the end, the good ones will rise to the top.

"will the mainlanders be allowed to live out?, in a boarding house? that would make them more attractive to employ."

Yes and no. Many, including us, prefer live in. Also with live out the wages need to be much higher.

Susie1 15 yrs ago

Maybe they might have government regulated boarding houses! and you will get a choice whether you have live in or out helpers, that would be the perfect solution.

Yes I agree,axptguy38, the good employees will rise to the top,

maxis 15 yrs ago

A lot of DH are in fact graduates.

Don't think DH's jobs will be endangered by local graduates snapping them up even if DH wage was increased to HKD20,000/month.

homely 15 yrs ago

cyberience, thanks for pointing out about the local helpers - if you have no small children or elderly to take care of, local part-time should be very suitable for lots of households. It's cheaper as you don't have to provide lodging, air-tickets and no paid holidays and it's more productive as they come and do the necessary work and leave. Should have thought of this option but well, I like my present helper and we (my husband & I) are spoilt but in future, who knows, if circumstances force us to re-consider any changes, we have to adapt.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

Local part time is only cheaper if the hours are rather limited. A FDH is actually a good deal provided you have the maid's room anyway.

punter 15 yrs ago

Can you define what you mean by "educated", and what do you expect from an "educated" person?

mayo 15 yrs ago

"If the pay is so paltry and the conditions are so miserable why do so many women come to Hong Kong to be domestic helpers?"

Lets just give the victims of famine melamine milk too. I mean if you have nothing to eat I'm sure you will happily down a glass of poisonous milk. Just because someone is used to less doesn't mean you should lower your own standards of fair.

punter 15 yrs ago

I was actually asking Jushayward what his definition of "educated" is as he seems to disagree that most Filipino FDHs are "well educated".

My helper for example didn't finish her university degree but can understand and follow instructions, learns quickly, speak in a very understandable way, and very easy to reason with. Is she counted as "educated" in your standard?

cowleyp 15 yrs ago

The whole Hong Kong DH scene is a distortion of normal and descent standards. Which of you can witness the same situation in your home country where the government sanctions paying aliens less than locals and gives them less rights and privileges? The UK and Europe do not, the USA does not and the UK now has MW standards. You may enjoy the privileges of cheap quasi slave labour and gain advantage as a result of it but don't believe for one moment it is a just or fair system. Anyone with a DH is taking advantage of their desperation for their own ends, like it or not, legal or not, it is the case.

Sure the DH see the opportunity to lift their families in their home country out of poverty, they may even express gratitude but all of you know employing them is not motivated by charity but rather by self interest.

Happy Mummy 15 yrs ago

Cowleyp: what is the relevance of your comparison of HK with UK/Europe/US? Can philippinos or indonesians or anyone find an employer there, apply for a visa to move and work as a DH? A BIG FAT NO!!! (except for very very special and limited cases). So how does that help the supposedly desperate people looking for jobs and income???? And really, is it that great to work or live in a country where your official and legal status is "alien" such as in the US??

"Anyone employing a DH is taking advantage of their desperation"?? Are you kidding me? A DH is not a slave, he/she is very much free to go if they do not like the job. But yes, maybe you are right that some of them may be desperate. Desperate for money! And there is money to be made in HK. Very good money. (eg. My helper tells me she makes more in HK than the branch manager of the bank in her town in Philippines.) And that is why they are here!

By your line of reasoning, should we employers of DH "not take advantage" and hence not employ them and let them be jobless and without income in their country?

Poor you, are you employed by your boss out of charity?!! Do you employ a DH who cannot carry out her duties but you still pay her for the sake of charity???!Gee, which organisation or person employ a person out of anything but 'self interest' (or more accurately, mutual interest)? Of course, employer needs the house to be cleaned, employer finds a DH who can do it, employer pays the DH. A DH needs money, he/she finds a job he/she can do and land, he/she gets paid for it. Everyone is happy. Anytime one party is not happy, walk away!!!!

Seriously, once again, there exists a min wage law for DH currently. It is a MINIMUM wage law. All employers are free to pay more. All of you out there yelling about how DHs are worth at least this amount, that amount more than the current minimum, I sincerely hope you are paying it. If not, after all that you say here, you are just a hypocrite. Some said they are worth HK$10k a month, go ahead pay it. No one is saying you can't. All we are trying to discuss here is if DH who are already protected under a min wage law should be included in a proposed min wage law for local labour and if they should have the same employment conditions as local labour with regards to probation, provision of accomodation, etc.

A min wage law sets the bar as the lowest denominator. Both for employers and for employees. If a DH is that good and worth more, negotiate for more! If an employer values a DH, pay more! Other than the baseline of a min wage protection for DH, it is a FREE market.

If you think about it, local labour does not have any protection currently and there are massive abuses going on which no one seems to be yelling about. Street cleaners, toilet cleaners, security guards..quite a lot supposedly getting just HK$4000-5000 a month...anyone saying that is unfair?

kimmy 15 yrs ago

My husband and I have been following this thread with immense interest. We wholeheartedly agree with everything Happy Mummy has said.

IslandHopper says 'they are paid crap money in HK'.

I realise ~hkd4k a month *seems* very low to many of us but have you asked any DH if they think it is 'crap'? From what I hear (from speaking with DHs) I don't think so!

When my husband first came out to HK with a master's degree in quantitative finance, he was getting hkd10k a month, and that's without any housing/food allowance or home-ticket! and for my first job here, I was getting hkd8k a month. I guess many (esp expats) probably felt very sorry for me and my husband for having such 'low' salaries but honestly speaking we were fairly happy with what we were getting.

My point is, it's really difficult to say what amount is 'high' or 'low' when you're not living their lives. Like Happy Mummy said, those of you who think the current min. wage is too low, just pay a lot more, no-one's stopping you!

We support minimum wage for DHs. We have one already. What is more important than raising the current one is, like axpatguy38 said earlier, making sure everyone complies with it.

Lastly, someone mentioned above that raising watchmen's salaries do not result in higher management fees - this is wrong. We own a property in a low-rise where their salaries account to 75% of total fees.

lucybrown 15 yrs ago

It's all about supply and demand. That force may temporarily be distorted by government polices or by a structural change, but eventually, it will settle to its nature. I think what many are trying to say is just the fact that if FDHs end up being included in the min wage law, then more FDHs stand to lose than not. And that is a fact. Maybe not a fact among most wealthier expats, but certainly for other struggling families.

I don't think anyone posting on this site is saying that FDHs are not worth the money. But at the current min wage level for FDHs, x number is here. You raise the wage, and it will be x minus y. It won't be x plus y. I think that is all that is being said. Everything else is just good and bad noise.

I do think these posts are very helpful though to re-examine our thoughts, motivations and actions. In this Hong Kong environment, it's easy to fall into traps of treating people like transactions. It's a good reminder to treat people as human beings first, then as employees second.

familyofthree 15 yrs ago

I agree with Kimmy and would like to add...

Why compared a DH salary to North America/Canada/UK but NOT in other Asian countries? They make pittance with less liberties everywhere else! Using the UK, North American and other "liberated" societies where working parents enjoy a far flexible working condition, the education system is different, the opportunity costs are different, the reason for the NEED to work is different! The paperwork required is different too!

90 percent of my 90 local students live in public housing where a parent works AT LEAST 12 hour days only to make less than $6000 a month. And DHs who claim to work round the clock want more? They still have to pay for rent, electricity, water, food... Do the Maths! Even in my neighbourhood, parents are clocking 12 hour days simply because the CULTURE is different in HK. Come on all you expats making gazillions on bloated packages... it's easy for you to argue the salary should be more when what's $6000 to you? Change for petrol? And your working hours... seriously... how much less does yours compare to a local worker?

DHs here are already well paid and they know it. My helper eats organic food, has her own room and bathroom. She gets up at 6 and goes to bed at 8. Most of the day she's on her own! IF DHs wants more money, then they should pay for their own room and board as I'm sure I would be saving money! I'm sure mine works less than I do at in my very local situation!

I can always compare my situation to another equal in the UK or North America or Australia or Europe... They make heaps more! But compared to my equals in the region... I am equal in almost every sense! Comparing HK to the UK/North America/Europe is like comparing apples to oranges.

Why don't the helpers then simply move to the UK/North America/Europe? Leave HK? That's an idea?

miao miao 15 yrs ago

Agree with the economic analysis. The HK government will look at this issue with the general HK households in mind instead of the small portion of wealthier expats. In my view the current economic equilibrium (i.e., number of households able to afford a FDH so as to earn dual income, and number of FDHs that can find a job here earning double to triple the salary for an office job back home) achieved by the current min wage requirement is probably better for both the employer and the FDH sides AS A WHOLE, than if the min wage is raised to 6000+.

Of course everybody wants a better, and even better pay, and it's nothing wrong for the FDH organizations to lobby for that. They should keep in mind, though, the econonimc reality and consider whether they are really doing a good thing for those they represent AS A WHOLE.

As others have pointed out, the bigger problem now is enforcing compliance with the current min wage. If that amount is actually paid out, and considering the provision of food, accommodation, utility, etc., which others workers in HK have to pay out of pocket, the FDH's monthly income does not seem much lowever, if any, than that earned by workers on similar jobs.

There is also the argument that even though FDH's actual monthly income may not be that low, they work long hours and therefor earn a much lowever hourly rate than workers like a security guard or toilet cleaner. That's a fair statement. There are other facts to this, though. One is that DHs don't need to travel to and from work. A lot of low paid workers on HK island live very far away and their 8 or 10-hour day can turn into 12 to 13 hours if you count in their commute time. Secondly, the nature of the DH work in a lot of households is like a morning shift and then a late-afternoon and evening shift. They get plenty of break time during the day and the actual hours worked is not non-stop from 7:00am to 9:00pm. Finally, I'm in total support for the government to allow the FDHs to live out; aside from more privacy and room for both sides, I think that's the only way they can be sure to have a more regular working hour like other workers.

Finally, as others have pointed out, there is virtually no mechanism in place to monitor the quality of FDHs that are able to come to HK. Even though the DH job does not require that much education or qualification, it is not for everybody; one has to be reasonably good at doing housework. Generally if she was not a good housewife in her own home, she probably cannot do that well in other people's home either. Plus she needs to be able to understand and follow instructions. I used to hire a part-time FDH (without knowing it's illegal at that time) for 4 hours a week on a rate of 80/hour. She's excellent. She also worked for some of my colleagues. I estimated that her income from these side jobs were around 5000 per month. Without discussing the illegality issue, she's well worth the pay. In contrast, my first full-time FDH (she's a nice person, BTW), a college graduate, when she started, she had no idea how to operate even the most basic appliance such as a vaccum machine, a washer, or even an iron (not that she could not use the special models we had; she simply didn't know how to drag along a vaccum for example), despite her claim that she knew how to use all those during the interview. It'd took her one hour to iron one shirt and it's still wrinkled. Her hygiene standard desperately needed improvement (she'd change the baby's diaper and, without washing hands, prepare his milk). The training she had supposed to have received from the agency was just bullsh*t. She basically had too much to catch up and she may never be in par with my old part-time. I was glad that I started her at the min wage and not more, and told her I would increase it if she improved. (She then had family emergencies and had to go back after 1 year, and I paid her a lump sum bonus to show appreciation for her effort (not so much for her work quality)). Bottom line, is, if you have a really good helper, you could and should pay more. But some of them lack even the basic quality/skills for this job and may not work out after months of training. In thoses cases, the current min wage, considering again what other workers make, does not seem to be unfair.

evildeeds 15 yrs ago

I haven't been involved in this, and agree that raising the minimum to such a level would cause issues however the first post is full of so much tripe that feel I have to answer!

1. "I actually agree that no one can live on HK$300 a month for food but to raise it officially to HK$740 is quite a jump and it effectively put the minimum wage of helpers to HK$3580+HK$740=HK$4320..."

Quite a jump for an allowance that has not changed for 26 years. And what would it have been if it tracked inflation?

2. "fresh university graduates count themselves lucky if they can find a job paying HK$6000-7000. And the job is certainly not going to come with accomodation, utilities, food, etc.Does the job at McDonalds that pay min wage comes with the above?"

No, but close when you consider that most of these people will be in public housing, a luxury not available to FDH or even yourselves.

3. "If the domestic helpers want so much to be considered like the average worker, why is it their job does not come with probation? Why is it all employers except employers of domestic helpers allowed to stipulate a probation period in the contract?"

Discussed a couple of weeks back. Considering FDH usually pay a huge amount to agents just to come here, who's going to cover that? You don't pay $20,000 to get a job here, a huge proportion of them do. Probation is not even an option, however termination is easily enforced and regularly is.

4. "How many stories have we heard of nightmare helpers putting bleach in baby's milk, spitting into the food as they cook, stealing, laziness, and even killing the employer!!"

Actually all stories involving FDH make the news, and as a percentage of FDH here in HK the number is tiny. If it gets to be so common that it doesn't make the news anymore then is the time to start worrying.

5. "Oh, and have those who are pushing for the new minimum wage to be applied to domestic helpers forgotten that well over 50% of all domestic helpers in HK are doing parttime work illegally at rates starting from HK$50 an hour and going to as high as HK$85???"

2 words for this. Absolute rubbish. You of course have a credible source for this accusation?

And from germanboy 'they have got used to living free in a place like hong kong which is the most expensive city....DH play with the law here...everyone knows this.."

Everyone plays with the law here, as mentioned above - Public Housing - is one of the most abused provisions in HK.

punter "Or you can wait for the 45-year old amah from the mainland. They might be coming soon. Are their wages also going to be the same?"

Yes, the mainland helpers will be employed at the same rate and with same conditions as curent FDH.

Overall I agree that applying this as a minimum wage would be disastrous for the industry but if you have issues with it spell it out in a rational way, not in a baseless diatribe. Think about why things are the way they are.

johannkirsten 15 yrs ago

sorry those of you that are advocates of the obscene raise in DH pay, but let's look at the simple economics of it..

how many dh are there in hong kong?

why are there so many?

is it because they are underpaid or because they are paid above and beyond what they can earn "domestically"

don't be so ignorant.

i know lots of teachers, professionals, junior bankers in the philippines that earn far less than a helper here in hong kong.

get a clue.. muppets..

cowleyp 15 yrs ago

The more reasons you try to find to justify the legalised double standards the more clear it is understood to be wrong.

It is unfortunately human nature to take advantage of people for your own advantage, what stinks here is the society legistlates for systematic abuse.

Of course there are injustices, low pay and poverty in other Asian countries but that does not make it right and we do not live in those countries.

Sure there are other workers in HK who do not get MW, more shame on the society.

ayuchan 15 yrs ago

.............. I think everyone has a right to their own opinion!

miao miao 15 yrs ago

The current compensation system for FDHs is not a simple double standard under which FDHs are necessarily disadvantaged as compared to locals as some suggested. It's a just different system. As pointed out above, FDHs receive less in cash salary but get free accommodation, food, utility, medical treatment for even non-work related sickness, zero commute expenses, and cannot be put under probation even though their quality/skills vary tremendously.

If FDHs' minimum wage are to be raised to the same as locals, then it's only fair that they also pay by themselves everything that they receive for free now and be subject to probation if desired by the employer. The government is unlikely to allow that to happen given the many social problems to be generated. For example, the government does not want the FDHs to compete for cheap housing with the locals. Also, as others have said, if FDHs are subject to probabtion, who's going to pay back their agency fee if they fail the probation period?

Plus I'm not sure FDHs themselves will be better off if they both earn and spend as much as other workers in HK on similar jobs. One just needs to try living on herself and realize how many things need to be paid. Many FDHs on the current minimum wage can easily save 1500 to 2500 per month to send home, whereas someone on a salary of 6000 to 7000 but has to pay everything out of pocket usually can barely make ends meet.

cowleyp 15 yrs ago

Guys, my point is nothing to do with what the earning potential of DH might be in their own country, dismal as it might be, and I agree a DH pay in HK may well be more than they could ever earn in thier home country, no argument. My point is about we as a society justify double standards for those living and working in our city. If a refugee from an uderprvilidged background goes to, say Germany, the law states that they should be paid the same as a local worker no matter what there employment contract and at least MW. Same in USA (Mexicans OK yes we know abuses take place), same in any civil society.

This is not about racism, although there sure are some overtones, I am purposely not naming countries that supply DH as they all have issues, my point bout fundemental human fairness and a just society. Please do not embrace the lower standards offered it your adopted country but strive to bring them up to world standards for a world city.

miao miao 15 yrs ago

cowleyp, cara and I have addressed the "double standard" issue above by showing that FDHs' actual pay may not necessarily be lower than local workers on similar jobs. To increase their salary and take away all the benefits they currently have for free may not necessarily serve them better.

cara, re the permanent residency issue -- not that I disagree that it's frustrating for a FDH to be unable to apply for PR after many years here. The same economic analysis, however, applies here. I.e., if FDHs are to receive the same privilieges as other work visa holders including the ability to apply for PR, there is no reason why they should not be subject to the same prerequisits and I'm sure you can see how those requirements would stop the vast majority of them from even being able to come here to work in the first place. And I remember having a discussion on the FDH PR issue on this forum before, and will not repeat everything said in that thread. Just two things to remember: 1. when it comes to immigration issues, everywhere in the world it's totally up to the receiving nation to decide who they want to allow to come to work and who they want to allow to permanently reside, all according to their national interest. Not much about equal protection or fairness. Other countries that allow FDHs to become PRs are different from HK in many aspects; they either have much higher standards to allow FDHs to come to work in the first place, or are in such a desperate need of domestic workers and high salary alone is not attractive enough, or are suffering low birth rate and want to encourage immigration, etc, etc. 2. it's not uncommon for a country to grant more or less privilieges to one class of visa holders than others, again according to the national interest. for example in the US it's much easier to get a visa to work as a nurse than for other jobs, whereas student visa holders are not allowed to have immigration intent and certainly not able to apply for a green card (someone can stay in the US for 10 years finishing 3 Phd program and have made big contribution in the scientific field yet still unable able to apply for a green card).

Ed 15 yrs ago

Let's please not insult others - if I missed any abusive comments please hit report abuse

Thanks

Spitfire 15 yrs ago

My friends all have domestic helpers with time to go on "on line dating/chat sites" and also to surf this site looking for goods. Which part of this "work" comes out of the 24 hours they are working?? I have hired helpers (YES Plural). My personal experience is that when I am not there (as in when I am working) they are doing something else other than work. One left my baby in the flat alone to go pick up some "freebies" from an employer of her friends who was giving away designer clothes. I fired her when I found out.

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

fortunate for you to find out your helper was slacking... other employers are clueless.

i think that one does not "own" the maid 24/7 i.e. and that the maid should account for her every move.

HAVING SAID THAT, i do also think that domestic helpers should focus on their work when it's time to work and if something comes up, then the helper should notify their employers if it falls within their work hours.

you were right to fire her when she left the baby alone without telling you (as if they would tell you that they need to leave the baby to attend to personal needs)

on another note, i do see some helpers during the day time with their charges shopping or meeting friends (on their supposedly work hours) ! i have seen helpers leave the baby in their prams outside the store while they browse through stuff inside. this does not happen only to babies and toddlers... i also see some of them leave their elderly charges in their wheelchairs outside specially when the store is small operation and there's very nearrow aisles

so my point there is that the helper may be with your kid or elderly relative all the time but then they may be doing something on the side not related to their work.

it also happens to helpers supposedly walking their dogs but usually end up sitting around with other friends chatting or just on their mobile phones.

maybe it should be clarified and have it written about what the working hours are and what the duties are. whatever she does outside of her working hours is her business.

again having said that, no one can really monitor every minute of the helper's working hours when the employers are not around.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"My personal experience is that when I am not there (as in when I am working) they are doing something else other than work. "

We have the opposite experience. Our helper is like the Energizer Bunny. Always finding some work to do. We have to tell her to sit down and relax for a bit every now and then. I thought when the kids started to do longer school days she would get some down time, but our dinners just seem to get more elaborate.

I guess it depends on the helper. Spitfire, you were quite right to fire the helper for leaving your baby alone.

"it also happens to helpers supposedly walking their dogs but usually end up sitting around with other friends chatting or just on their mobile phones."

Have seen this a lot. If you have a dog, make sure your helper really loves dogs, not just tolerates them.

mls1989 15 yrs ago

Dear backdoorman

"You don't see domestic helpers in Central quaffing a few beers after a hard day of work" (QUOTE.)

I used to join my girlfriends for drinks after work or after the gym (bad idea - alcohol is FATTENING!). Occasionally these get togethers might fall on a Ladies Nite. I remember that Bar George had a whole line up of Philippino domestic helpers sitting at the bar and the ratio of Caucasian or Chinese girls to Philippinos at that bar was something like 3 : 1 in favour of the Philippinos. In Wanchai the ratio is even HIGHER. You have to know where to look and as HK is a very small place, there is only so many bars here. In fact, I remember one particular occasion, when I was with a Korean lady friend living and working in Oz who wanted to see what Neptune was like inside. The Philippino bouncer at the door asked her point blank if she was "Chinese". I asked him why he needed to know this. This is after all Hong Kong and not Makarti. He said and I quote "Because the Chinese are trouble makers". No filming was allowed inside Neptune or any of these sleazy pick up joints. The girls there were mainly on fake contracts usually signed by a Caucasian MALE who was dating someone whom these girls knew or were vaguely related to. I am sure this not news to many of you on this site.

I have stopped being amazed by the cell phones I see carried by D.Hs. or indeed, the ones who own laptops. I doubt the average Chinese cleaner in HK could afford any of these "necessities".

viper342 15 yrs ago

Scary! Therefore, if you want to hire a sincere FDH who really wanted a job as a helper, one should go to a proper agency instead of getting girls who advertise themselves thro the internet.

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

I doubt the average Chinese cleaner in HK could afford any of these "necessities".

o sure they have cell phones, however i hardly see them use it when they are working. and if they do have calls, they don't really stay long on the phone either.

cd 15 yrs ago

Wiz Bang, I don't agree with the hardly ever use their mobiles comment, I see helpers every day on their phones, and not just short conversations.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"remember that Bar George had a whole line up of Philippino domestic helpers sitting at the bar and the ratio of Caucasian or Chinese girls to Philippinos at that bar was something like 3 : 1 in favour of the Philippinos. In Wanchai the ratio is even HIGHER. You have to know where to look and as HK is a very small place, there is only so many bars here."

What makes you think those are helpers? I'll chime in with Islandhopper. Those are not helpers on their free time. Those are full time prostitutes.

"i'm not saying this is always the case, but unless you ask the helper specifically, how are you to know? and more importantly.... who are you to judge?"

Indeed.

"I have stopped being amazed by the cell phones I see carried by D.Hs. or indeed, the ones who own laptops. I doubt the average Chinese cleaner in HK could afford any of these "necessities"."

Cell phones and (cheaper) laptops are not that expensive.

tpol 15 yrs ago

Furthermore, the DH has a need for the notebooks to email or skype home.

Cleaners probably do not have that need.

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

Wiz Bang, I don't agree with the hardly ever use their mobiles comment, I see helpers every day on their phones, and not just short conversations.

IT WAS IN REFERENCE TO THE AVERAGE CHINESE CLEANERS comment by Mis1989

and with regards to filipino helpers, i've witnessed a lot of them on the phone on hours... also see my comment on helpers supposedly walking their dog.

Susie1 15 yrs ago

I see Dh's chatting on thier phones all the time, when they are supposed to be keeping an eye on small children playing in our park, children running all over the place including near the waters edge, while the ladies chat. and helpers supposed to be walking dogs sitting a few yards from employers homes, chatting to their friend, dogs not getting much exercise! Once saw a little dog ran over, because the helper threw a ball across the road while the dog was off its lead, the dog broke its leg.

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

there are helpers who pretend that they love their employers dogs or cats or hamsters but when the cat is away (pun not intended) or not around, it is a totally different story.

yes i've seen helpers who use walk time and/or kids play time as their social and shopping time at the same time too.

Josacs 15 yrs ago

"and with regards to filipino helpers, i've witnessed a lot of them on the phone on hours... also see my comment on helpers supposedly walking their dog"

Wiz Bang, why dont you use the general term " foreign domestic helpers" instead of singling out filipinos. Are domestic helpers of other nationalities immune of this practice?

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

joshacs....uh yes

i am able to distinguish the filipino language from the indonesian language as much as i can distinguish a mandarin speaker from a cantonese speaker.

in MY experience, i've heard more filipinas talk on the phone longer than the indonesians

shoot me if you think that what i've witnessed is a delusionary and imaginary product of my mind.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

I don't doubt this is your experience, but one cannot build statistics from anecdote. There are just over 250000 FDH in HK. Of those around 150000 are Filipinas. Your observations only cover a tiny percentage of the Filipina and Indonesian contingents. Yes yes I know you said "your experience".

"there are helpers who pretend that they love their employers dogs or cats or hamsters but when the cat is away (pun not intended) or not around, it is a totally different story."

Certainly, but any dog owner worth his/her salt will notice if the dog is not getting enough exercise. In any case this begs the question: "Did the owner buy the dog for him/herself or for the helper?" Apart from when we are away, I would never delegate our dog's walks to our helper. If I don't even walk the dog, what's the point of having one?

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

I would never delegate our dog's walks to our helper.

may i ask who walks your dog during the day when you are at work?

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

Indeed. However if I did work full time, I would still ensure I took a good daily walk with my dog. It's part of having a dog, at least the way I see it. If you work a lot the helper can take the dog for A walk, not THE walk, the one where you really go places.

Angsana 15 yrs ago

I no longer live in HK but I understand as I did have a maid when I was there. I do not think the HK Govt. has thought about the consequences of raising the min salary of the maid to HK$6846. For starters many people have a maid as a luxury, not a necessity (like me) and would go with out if it became a financial burden. I am capable of doing my own stuff but don't because help is cheap. If it's not cheap, I'll do it myself. On the other side of the coin paying HK$7K + expenses for a maid will be too much for the average HK'er. For example my ex secretary was paid HK$11K a month. Her maid kept house and looked after her kids. If she has to pay HK$7K + expenses for the maid, plus her own taxes and expenses it's not worth her going to work. She may as well stay at home. This may make sense for a lot of HK women.

The other thing is paying a maid nearly HK$7K + all expenses paid is not equal rights, it is preferential treatment. If I was a HK'er I would have a serious problem with that.

The only way I would keep a maid under these circumstances is if by her being paid HK$7K she was also responsible for living out, paying taxes, paying for all her other living expenses and flights home. I wouldn't mind her hours being curbed and paying her medical. However if they want maids to have equal rights, let them live like a local.

peanuts 15 yrs ago

Totally agree with Angsana.

viper342 15 yrs ago

Ed You are very unfair....you deleted O.P. post regarding liza2371 which I thought was quite mild whereas going back 4 days ago in one of liza2371's post, she wrote calling the O.P an a**hole and you still left it there. Why?

Ed 15 yrs ago

As indicated, please click Report Abuse if I miss something... I have to review hundreds of new posts each day and sometimes I miss stuff (esp on Friday afternoons...)

bargoban 15 yrs ago

Domestic Helpers should get higher wages. Working fulltime and getting what they get paid is ridiculous. They are taking care of your kids, walking your dogs, buying your groceries, massaging your feet with their mouths and yet they recieve the kind of pay they recieve. Thats a fulltime job! A few people on here brought up something about DH's being on their phone a lot.

Everyone here practically LIVES on their phones, westerners and local people alike. Its the norm here, and its ridiculously cheap compared to what the rest of the world pays. What you'd pay(services like Internet, 1000 mins, text) in places like U.S. or parts of Europe is probably the equivalent of part time help from a DH.

You know, maybe this whole thing is good. Maybe the HK parents who have kids around the age of 9 or 10 will start teaching their kids RESPONSIBILITY! Thats a damn shame to have a 10-14 year old in the house not doingsh*t while the DH washes their clothes, dishes, vacuums, etc. Teach these zombie kids something.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"Working fulltime and getting what they get paid is ridiculous."

Why? Compared to what? That's purely a subjective statement.

"What you'd pay(services like Internet, 1000 mins, text) in places like U.S. or parts of Europe is probably the equivalent of part time help from a DH."

No way. Having lived in both the US and Europe in the past few years I would say that HK is cheap but not exceptionally so.

"Maybe the HK parents who have kids around the age of 9 or 10 will start teaching their kids RESPONSIBILITY! "

And you think this will happen if they have no DH? I doubt it. Bad parents are bad parents and good parents are good parents. A DH does not change that fact.

Happy Mummy 15 yrs ago

Ed, yup, agree wtih Viper342. liza2371 had several posts calling others names, cursing and swearing here and on other related treads. On the thread re "Food Allowance", she even wrote "I pray that your husband loses his job and you move back to your country". Gosh, while that made me laugh, you should remove it so that you are not encouraging such bad behaviour and lack of respect to other's opinions. It is not conducive to productive discussion.

liza2371, do you understand that everyone is entitled to their opinions? And that even if you do not agree, you should respect it? Stop calling others names, swearing and cursing as you did here and in the other threads. You are so obviously a mean, disrespectful, bitter, evil person. I pray that god is kind to you and takes away all that anger and bitterness and replace it with wisdom and joy.

Ed 15 yrs ago

Using profanity or insulting others = ban. If we have missed this please click report abuse to bring it to our attention and we will delete/ban

Thanks

spurtio 15 yrs ago

Ed

I did hit the report abuse button on Liza's comment on the other thread (hope husband loses job etc) one week ago when i saw it. I was pretty stunned that anyone could be quite so unpleasant to someone who they do not know.

What happened that it took so long to remove?

Happy Mummy 15 yrs ago

Ed, I hit the report abuse button twice over a week ago too.

madam x 15 yrs ago

i have been following this thread, along with a few others. i have found the different viewpoints very interesting and have gained a lot of knowledge about different topics. however, it never ceases to amaze me how mean and nasty people can be when people have different views from their own. i wonder if it is because we can sit behind a computer screen and the facade of made-up names?

we come here to discuss our viewpoints and maybe see things a bit differently, maybe not. sometimes vent. take what we want, leave the rest.

islandhopper:

I don't know why you are actually complaining about abuse. You knew already that you were inviting such comments - based on what you wrote in your original post:

so happy mummy says she should be expecting hate mails. does that give others the right to abuse? does she lose all right to complain? she should take it because she started a thread and put her viewpoints out there and others disagree?

so maybe, in your mind, someone that is an abusive situation--i will get extreme and say domestic abuse-they 'deserve' it, and they should not complain, because they brought it on?

abuse of any sort any where any how is not right. not verbal, not written, not physical, not emotional-no abuse is right or ok! we as people have a right to stand up against it. we should stand up against it.

islandhopper:

You don't usually receive hate mail for well-based opinions and facts but the ill-meaning disinformation you spread in this thread was clearly provocative

i totally disagree! i have seen many forums (not just here) turn nasty because people cannot accept a different viewpoint from their own. well-based opinions according to whom? being provocative is not a bad thing, how it is reacted to can be.

wouldnt it be nice to live in a world without so much hate? really, its sad that we dont.

Ed 15 yrs ago

I have banned that person

madam x 15 yrs ago

ok, fair enough, my bad.

but i ask again, does it warrant abuse? NO! very simple.

why are you are able to point out my mistake and yet you have nothing to say about my other thoughts?

quite telling from my perspective.

ayuchan 15 yrs ago

I agree with Angsana ! If they do up it many ppl will opt to not having a FDH as having a helper is just not paying their wage ! it's the 6XXX + air ticket + medical + food+ the water (+ when you go out if you are good employer eatting out+ transport cus i don't think you will leave your helper at home all the time )

And i know many ppl have helpers just becus its affordable and have them as a luxury as most expats don't have a helper in their country!

Just bring this up as I had a conversation with a few friends and most said if this does come to effect many will opt not to have a FDH.

So it means many FDH also will lose a job as well !

P&Q 15 yrs ago

Spoiled by a cheap Slave!

Response to the original post.

You should be ashamed of yourself. If you don't like the price, which is bloody cheap, then do the work yourself. If you have the skills...

You are probably one of the wage slave keepers who makes their slave buy their own food and sleep on the floor in the kitchen.

You are probably thinking, "gee, what's wrong with that? They chose to come to Hong Kong."

If you want the benefits of a low cost slave then as a result yo have to understand, that however pathetic, society does put a few measley constraints into place.

Perhaps you should reflect on the average slave's living conditions here (poor). How far they are from their loved ones (far). and how much time they are at your beck and call (at least 6 days a week 24 hours a day = all the time.)

Shame on you. Shame!

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

Helpers are not slaves. Let's not call them that. They have an important job and the least we can do is treat them with dignity.

Ed 15 yrs ago

I am not seeing this reference to 'cheap slaves' - can someone point this out (it's a long thread...)

cookie09 15 yrs ago

Posted by Ed (20 mins ago)

[ Message | Report Abuse ]

I am not seeing this reference to 'cheap slaves' - can someone point this out (it's a long thread...)

it's the post just above ed :)

Ed 15 yrs ago

Are you referring to this post:

Spoiled by a cheap Slave!

Response to the original post.

You should be ashamed of yourself. If you don't like the price, which is bloody cheap, then do the work yourself. If you have the skills...

You are probably one of the wage slave keepers who makes their slave buy their own food and sleep on the floor in the kitchen.

You are probably thinking, "gee, what's wrong with that? They chose to come to Hong Kong."

If you want the benefits of a low cost slave then as a result yo have to understand, that however pathetic, society does put a few measley constraints into place.

Perhaps you should reflect on the average slave's living conditions here (poor). How far they are from their loved ones (far). and how much time they are at your beck and call (at least 6 days a week 24 hours a day = all the time.)

Shame on you. Shame!

ayuchan 15 yrs ago

Which price are you referring to ?

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

But doubling the current minimum wage, when you factor in the other costs that Nickki Leung pointed out, is probably approaching that for a lot of people. We probably won't go much higher than where we are now. If the wages rise too far above that level than the DH goes and perhaps we would contract with a cleaning service for a few days a week.

=====

if this happens and helpers get more than 6000 and above HKD, i would then agree with angsana, they should be treated as a local worker

there are many nationalities working (like waiters and cleaners) at this salary level, working at local terms paying taxes but receiving less benefits i.e. they don't get housing or airfare.

if this happens i.e. work on local terms and conditions., then the question is should the gov't allow them to apply for permanent residency?

Ed 15 yrs ago

Please... please.... m'goy.... let me interrupt....

Let's all watch and sing to this important announcement...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dYpnd_9TFs

hun196988 15 yrs ago

Hi guys...Ed is right! why all you guys can't be friend? after all, you all are entitled with your own opinions. I believed this one applies to the issue in question. " Give what is due to Ceasar"

hun196988

notyou 15 yrs ago

re: cara...If a mother works, she's a working mother, implying that she's working despite her children's need for a stay-at-home mother. If a father works, he's a banker, lawyer, teacher, etc. Oh yeah, and if it comes up in conversation, he's a father. During interviews with movie stars we hear people ask the actresses balance work and family. This isn't asked of men. Our society contributes to guilt.

Jams 15 yrs ago

I think this argument has gone too far.

I just have a suggestion if the government stipulates a minimum wage for the Domestic helpers.

Employer who can afford it can have a Domestic helper.

Domestic helpers who are not happy with the present condition I suggest look for jobs in other countries like Singapore , Malaysia , Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait other part of the middle east

Canada USA Europe south America rest of the world..

If Domestic helpers feel their employment right and conditions are well protected in other countries please give one month notice to your employer and go for better prospects.

All the best to the employers and the employee.

jams

Hong Kong

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

Jams, what you are talking about is already happening, just at a different wage level than the new proposed one.

mariarehman 15 yrs ago

http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/20090903.htm

escarole 15 yrs ago

I am amazed at the vitriol directed at Happy Mummy. Am I the only reader who interpreted the description of her household as 1 adult, 1 child as meaning that she is a single parent? If I am correct, many of the posters above should be thoroughly ashamed of their criticisms. If she works full time, having 2 helpers sounds like having an appropriate capacity for contingencies built in if her child is young enough to need full time care. To have one DH doing the full caregiver shift would qualify as abusive employment conditions by the standards of many of the previous posters. Putting this in context, my boss's boss in NYC and her husband have 4 nannies (full time equivalent but not live-in) for their 2 school age children. Both travel frequently for work and that level of staffing unfortunately is what experience has taught them is the necessary number of people needed to take care of their kids.

punter 15 yrs ago

escarole, the originial post was quite lengthy. Did you find anything objectionable with it? Or everything was just a-ok for you?

punter 15 yrs ago

Agree with yonon11. In the US, only the super rich can afford to have nannies and the fdh role is served by daycare centers and home for the aged.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

I wouldn't say super rich. Certainly you have to be more wealthy than in HK, but you don't have to be super rich. Upper middle class is quite enough.

"If the minimum wage law is approved then nobody can dis-agree with that anymore. "

The wage was kept where it is now.

jnrahman 15 yrs ago

If you guys have such as issue with this, why don't you go without helpers? Problem solved!! Just stop whining.

We are fortunate to have two helpers who are absolutely fantastic; we consider them part of our family. We have always paid them above market, with generous bonuses and airfare home. Our rationale is that they use that money to support their families in the Philippines, which means I am helping someone who is less fortunate than we are. We are grateful that we have two wonderful human beings taking care of ourselves, day in and day out, being away from their own families.

Happy Mummy 15 yrs ago

Quite a few of you are missing my points for discussion. I am not against rising the minimum wage per se. (I already pay my helpers well over the minimum.) I have put up several more posts other than the first one.

My points are that the Federation of FDH is pushing for inclusion to the min wage law the govt is proposing, that if they are to be included, they should be subjected to the same conditions as the locals (eg. take care of their own housing/utilities/food/transport/etc, have trial/probation before employment, etc).

Note that the min wage law for local labour have not been decided on and is still up for discussion!

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"If you guys have such as issue with this, why don't you go without helpers? Problem solved!! Just stop whining. "

That's not really the point is it. The point is that if the minimum wage is raised by any significant amount, a lot of FDH will be out of work. Also, if they have the same minimum wage as other workers, it penalizes other workers who do not have paid housing.

escarole 15 yrs ago

Punter - I should have been more clear, the criticisms of the OP's *argument* are interesting, well-argued, and contain totally valid points.

But it is pretty clear to me that the OP is a working single mum whose family are not helping take care of her child. The string of posts from duncan, Ausman and beerboy about 30 days ago saying "OMG the word lazy come to mind" are not only unnecessary *personal* criticism but to me look flat out sexist in their apparent inability to even acknowledge that the OP has no choice but to employ some form of help.

fartybottom 15 yrs ago

hi all,

i have had 2 dh's for a total of 9 months some years back, and they were horrible. oh they would be real good for a bit but then turn on you and raise frivolous lawsuits that waste the time of everyone in Court. one even decided to migrate to canada! after 6 months of service! nevermind that she signed on for 2 years! contracts are meaningless!

so i got a grip, stopped hiring fdh's and got a local nanny. i pay her well but she is trustworthy! i am happy! she is happy and the local jobless rate decreases! the money stays in hk and all is well!

no hassles in court, no long distance phone bills, no living with strangers, no quarrelling with them at night till late while keeping the kids up, no strangers visiting the home while i am gone, etc etc, the list goes on and on...

my conclusion: hire locals! they can teach your kids cantonese for free!:)

i did it and am happy for once! haha!

punter 15 yrs ago

We've mentioned it many times in this thread. The best solution to this problem is not to hire an FDH if your circumstances allow for it. Hiring a local is good too if you can find one you're going to be comfortable with.

However, there too are going to be problems that will come with it. Think of the local helper/nanny (1) gets sick in the morning and can't come, (2) gets in trouble with shady lenders, (3) turns out to be lazy, (4) spends too much time on the phone, (5) difficult to communicate with, (6) etc.

The things I enumerated are the same problems we get from our FDHs! Any choice we make will never be perfect as long as we deal with "human" workers. That brings a thought, why not buy a robot helper?

jamiro914 15 yrs ago

Domestic Helpers has been a key figure in Hong Kong. Most of the helpers come from poor families in south east asia. And it would be better if people who can only afford to pay for a domestic helper be allowed to get one than persons who just mistreat them. To the person who posted this thread, i bet you'd rather spend HK$6864 to buy your personal posessions than pay the person that is helping you raise your kids, clean your house and cook your food. It might be rude to say... don't be Tsip Tsao (just google his name). Human beings are not cheap...

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"owever, there too are going to be problems that will come with it. Think of the local helper/nanny (1) gets sick in the morning and can't come, (2) gets in trouble with shady lenders, (3) turns out to be lazy, (4) spends too much time on the phone, (5) difficult to communicate with, (6) etc."

Well, quite frankly we have never had any of these problems and all of our friends haven't either. So sure, they do exist, but I don't think they are the case with all helpers.

It's an employee. If you manage well and she has a good attitude things typically turn out all right.

"The best solution to this problem is not to hire an FDH if your circumstances allow for it."

We love our helper. There's no way not hiring one would be the "best solution" for us.

She has been nothing but a superlative employee from day one. Sure, she could stab us to death in our sleep tonight, but I'm not losing sleep over that possibility.

mls1989 15 yrs ago

Please do not patronize me Island Hopper.

If you live here long enough, you will know that there are many fake contracts and many girls work "part time" cleaning and cooking and the rest they spend in Wanchai. At the end of the day, they came here as domestic helpers. I have lady pal who lived in the Philippines for some time, she is not Phillipino but she speaks the lingo so .. no mistake. An American friend used to let his helper get the night off every night and he also travels back and forth to the U.S. Guess WHERE you WILL find his D.H.??

Answers on one page. No conferring.

I saw her there a couple of times in Wanchai and she wasn't there to pick up a club sandwich either.

I rest my case.

DaisyFlower 15 yrs ago

I totally agree with the poster. After so many dismal experiences with Filipino DH's, I finally found a local Chinese to work for me. $50 an hour and she does more in a half a day than a Filipino would do in a week. We're soooo glad to be rid of the DHs! When I went back to work full-time, I paid my Chinese helper $7,000 per month and worth every penny of it. She didn't ask for such a high wage. Her motivation is not just monetary gain. She also wants a part-time job to occupy her because her kids are all grown. I offered her such a wage because I would have been embarassed to offer any less to someone that busted her butt the way she does. Ah, but that is the difference between the Chinese and Filipino work-ethic. If the DHs want a higher wage, then prove that you are worth it! I liked my Indonesian maids because at least they seemed grateful for their job and were willing to listen to instruction and follow advice. I would pay them more because I appreciated their attitude and help. I haven't met a Filipino DH who didn't think she was "above" being a maid and "above" following the ways I wanted things done. There are agencies that place local Chinese ladies for "temp" work--cleaning, babysitting. There is an temp office at City One rail station, near the exit towards the hospital. If you're fed up, like we were, find a Chinese helper. Language may be a bit of a barrier if you don't speak Chinese. But, if someone knows what they are doing, you're not going to have to explain a whole lot. When I was in Indonesia, I couldn't communicate directly with my maids but there were no issues to discuss over like the ones I had with Filipinos in HK. Just compare the work ethic between the countries of Hong Kong and the Philippines. I think that's why local Chinese can't see paying DHs such a high salary whereas the maids keep on screaming for higher wages. We'll never see eye-to-eye. You think you are expending all your energy (cell phone in hand) and we wonder why you've barely scratched the surface (of the dirt and list of responsibilities!)

Do yourself a favour and the Hong Kong economy a favour and higher a local Chinese. If you're lucky, you can find a Chinese housewife whose whole purpose is not making as much money as possible off of you but maybe also filling up some of her extra free-time. There's a huge difference between hiring someone to work who is doing it solely for money and someone who is doing it to occupy herself and sees the extra money as pinmoney. You get real cheerful, appreciative attitudes and less games, manipulation, dishonesty, attitudes. No more people wanting to borrow from you.

I can't wait until they open the floodgates for the mainlanders to come in. They will outperform the Filipinos by lightyears and there will be no more jobs for the DHs. And... they'll still be screaming for higher wages, even as the jobs disappear for them.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"Do yourself a favour and the Hong Kong economy a favour and higher a local Chinese. "

I fail to see any obvious advantages to the economy. If there is a shortage of labor the FDH will free up one worker and more wealth is created. Furthermore, the FDH does spend money herself.

Not saying bringing in a FDH brings obvious economic advantages, just that hiring a local is not obviously good for the economy either.

As for work ethic and so forth, it depends more on the person than on the nationality. We've never seen anything but the cheerful attitudes you speak of, and no games, dishonesty, etc... As I said, it DEPENDS ON THE PERSON.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"Employers who complain about bad employees often forget that it takes two to tango"

Didn't want to say it myself. In my experience employers with "problem helpers" are often not the easiest to work for. Not saying this is always the case, but there is a definite correlation in my humble opinion.

Wiz Bang 15 yrs ago

it works both ways ... and as one poster says it takes two to tango

"Please people, stop tarring ALL Filippino DH's with the same brush"

in as much as you are "angered" by the generalizations made by the posters here, the actions of these dh helpers creates a stereotype.

very much so like the stereotype of filipinos in the usa - where they are brushed by the term hide and hide ( i forget what my friend said was the filipino term) because there are many filipinos who immigrate to the usa illegally.

so yes we may be guilty of stereotyping and "brushing", but the actions of these helpers do contribute in creating a negative image of the filipino helper community also.

and perhaps you should also rant and rave to the filipino community and lecture them about their actions having an impact on the filipino image whether that be negative or positive.

Susie1 15 yrs ago

Surely this community must realise they are giving themselves cause to be stereotyped, they no longer have the largest numbers of FDH's according to SCMP last week, Employers are preferring to choose other nationalities to employ for their honesty and loyalty. That is not to say they are all bad. If Chinese workers start coming into HK, then the Balance of Dh's will change again, even more choice for the employers, it will be very intersting to see what happens rather than speculating.There are also Illegal filapinas in Spain, they also hide, and cause trouble ,when the Spanish police catch them, give them a "hiding" before unceremoniously deporting them like they do with any illegals.

Susie1 15 yrs ago

Yes I agree with you that some of these girls have been underpaid in the past and exploited, but now I think the due to exposure of these facts , and rightly so, the girls are now getting a fairer deal, I really hope so. There seems to be a lot of potential employers looking for the qualities these girls have. I hope the HK gov can sort out the unscrupulous agencies.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"Yes I agree with you that some of these girls have been underpaid in the past and exploited, but now I think the due to exposure of these facts , and rightly so, the girls are now getting a fairer deal, I really hope so."

I hope so too but doubt it.

evildeeds 15 yrs ago

"Yes I agree with you that some of these girls have been underpaid in the past and exploited, but now I think the due to exposure of these facts , and rightly so, the girls are now getting a fairer deal"

These facts were exposed about 5 years ago. What has changed? Zilch.

For the agencies, well Ed for one has been trying his best, along with others to get the HK Govt to act. Nothing major yet, although one agency was prosecuted. There are at least a hundred others.

As for Filipina girls, well I see the same manta trotted out all the time - well I saw someone in Wanchai......... Wake up! You really think the whole of HK revolves around that little community on the island? Where less than 20% of the population lives? That is the benchmark for the whole of HK? Small minds and all that.....

I do agree with axptguy and IslandHopper in regard to it takes two to tango, and from my observations it really rings true.

And as for mainland helpers. Yes it will happen, but I believe that is another can of worms ready to explode at some point. Some believe it will be nirvana, but to be honest I can see a lot of problems coming with that. But let's see it anyway!

Josacs 15 yrs ago

There are two kinds of people in this world: those that divide people into two categories and those who are smarter than that.

I have come to believe that people who make sweeping generalizations about groups of people have very small minds.

They must be small, since they are incapable of entertaining an infinite number of possibilities of character, belief and attitude. Indeed, they are incapable of entertaining even a small multiple of possibilities.

Sweeping generalizations come from people who do not know any better. It is a serious detriment to a peaceful world.

BumpyDog 15 yrs ago

Indeed.

Ms1989 - you rest your case judging all filipino dh's in HK based on one person's behaviour?

Surely you are aware that there are many mainland prostititutes plying their trade in Mongkok. By your reckoning that means all mainland women in HK are involved in prostitution.

punter 15 yrs ago

There are many FDHs in Wanchai bars, definitely they're not there to pick up sandwiches.

There are also many local Hong Kong girls in Wanchai bars, they're not there selling sandwiches.

Are they the same kind of girls then?

Ed 15 yrs ago

May I interrupt....

I believe the latest stats indicate that there nearly 300,000 domestic helpers in Hong Kong. There are not more than a few hundred in Wanchai bars in Wanchai on Sundays and most of them are there for the same reasons others go to Wanchai, LKF or Soho on a Friday or Saturday evening - to have fun with friends.

Please lets stay away from insinuations that generalize about domestic helpers based on the actions of a very small number of them.

axptguy38 15 yrs ago

"There are many FDHs in Wanchai bars, definitely they're not there to pick up sandwiches."

As Ed pointed out this is quite a generalization. Certainly there are Filipinas "working" in Wan Chai bars, but typically those are NOT helpers on their day off.

heidz 15 yrs ago

maybe

myxiest 12 yrs ago

maybe because of not enough salary,they can't provide thier families thats why need more income....

Susie1 12 yrs ago

myxiest, do you know you replying to a thread which is 1080 days old?

Helpers will never get a ridiculous salary, many employers would not or could not afford that wage. They would just employ local part-time, and not have to have them living in. Hence the vast number of overseas helpers would not be needed in Hk anymore.

Specific Advice

Regionally Shared Advice

Min wage for DH - HK$6864!?!?

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