Posted by
mikeanddi
12 yrs ago
Wow! I don't really know how to reply, but I have a couple of observations to make:
1. I left the Uk with three children under 5. I was and still am perfectly capable of feeding them & clothing them in clean clothes, doing the school run and the shopping. When I arrived here 3 1/2 years ago I was adamant that I didn't need help. However with two boys at different school and a breast feeding 3 month old, no friends and no relatives to help, I quickly realised that wasn't possible without causing much distress for the children & I. I therefore advertised in my building for a helper and she contacted me. I interviewed her as much as she interviewed me ( several helpers before her had decided three children was too many and did not take the job). My helper has since moved to Canada to get her citizenship and I was sorry to lose her but helped her as much as I could. In no way at all did I treat her as a slave, I paid for her to go home and for her children to visit her here, I sent baby clothes & toys back to her friends and family at home. We had an employment contract that was legal and binding and protected her rights
2. My helper's daughter has trained to be a pharmacist as my helper was determined she would not follow in her footsteps. She has therefore broken the cycle and made a choice of her own which she would not have had if her mother had not paid for college.
I do often think it would be much better if the helpers could work at home in the Philippines and not have to leave their families but the truth is that they earn far more money here in HK. I also feel that the citizenship here in HK is not fair as many DH have lived and worked here for so many years that they should have some say in the politics of how the country is run.
I don't think the situation is as black and white as the article makes it out to be.
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HK1
12 yrs ago
I agree that the choices people make are based on their given situation and would be deemed by many to not be "choices". I doubt that many of us would choose to move away from our families without a great deal of thought about the best/other realistic options available. Nevertheless, it is entirely unfair to hold that every single person/family that employs a helper here as adding/contributing to the situation. Shouldn't more efforts be focused on ridding poorer countries of the corrupt officials that do little to improve the lot of their people? Or perhaps we should seek recourse from the many husbands in the Philippines that spend the hard earned cash of their wives on drink, other women and worse (my helper and many others have these issues). And to solve these problems, the families that employ people as helpers should not employ helpers - as this would solve the problem?! Unlikely, even if we ALL made this bold move.
I think there can certainly be a lot more done to help helpers - many of whom are no doubt discriminated against and have appalling work conditions. The fact they do not have the same residency right as others in Hong Kong is appalling indeed and I for one am against such rules. But to deem ALL employers of domestic helpers as slave owners is as unfair as it is to deem all helpers dishonest because of one or two bad apples/bad experiences of theft etc.
Dear Fata - rather than use your venomous (yet a little articulate) words on a forum to share your views (which will either 1) be ignored by those whom you want to redress or 2) upset those who might agree with a lot of what you say if you weren't so accusatory/judgemental) - why don't you use that boundless energy to help the many defenceless people whom you purport to support in a more constructive way?
Your life (and theirs) would likely be much better for it. Else, I suggest you seek some therapy (though perhaps not the retail kind) as you clearly could benefit from it. Your soul definitely needs it as it can't be good for your health to be so bitter!
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I don't feel that I'm dillusional. Nor do I take this article personally. I think you make some great points you are just offensive in the way you express them and dictate from your holier than thou position. By the way I am way more educated than my husband yet he works for a Bank and brings in the wages while I bring up our children. That is my choice and I am thankful (most days!) that I am in the privileged position to be able to do this.
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Ed
12 yrs ago
Bigger picture...
Corporations seek out the lowest possible labour pools to manufacture their goods... if one country tries to pass legislation that guarantees decent working conditions and wages for it's people, corporations quickly close up shop and shift elsewhere...
But we cannot blame the corporations because at the end of the day most people when faced with similar quality, generally opt for the items with the lower price...
Of course they probably don't know that lower price often = near slave like conditions... but even if they did know I doubt that would make a difference... they'd still buy the cheaper item...
Sadly, this is the world we live in...
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I agree with cara (to no one's surprise I assume). The world is unfair, yes. However the helper system does not make it more unfair.
It is not slavery since helpers have a choice. Certainly they don't have a lot of choice given their "birth lottery number", but they do have a choice. But you could also argue that most people in the world don't have a lot of choice.
- Treat your helper with respect and pay her decently for her work.
- The "pittance" should be considered from the background of wages in the helper's home country. Our helper supports her entire family and her son goes to private school. It may be a pittance to you but she is certainly the most well off person in her family. The cost of living is not the same everywhere.
If you want to make life better for people in The Philippines or Indonesia, not employing a helper is certainly not the way to do it. That just shuts off one of the avenues for foreign capital to enter the country. Instead, perhaps lobby for less corrupt governments in those countries, governments that don't take a lot of the money these hard working ladies make in punitive taxes.
Poverty is not solved by not giving people work...
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HK1
12 yrs ago
Ed - totally agree! I rarely (unfortunately can't say never) buy the cheapest options for this very reason, but few consumers see it that way. Be interested to hear if Fata does the same or feeds into these larger corporations and is part of the bigger problem.
Fata, unfortunately your argument is getting lost in the lack of grammatical structure and punctuation. If there is valid point I'm afraid it's not clear at all and your message won't get out there! At the moment you risk your comments sounding like ramblings, which is (might be) a shame...
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bla bla bla, i wonder whether anyone actually reads more than the first two lines of fata's post. if someone can't structure a post, it automatically discredits any argument that there could be.
...or is lack of structure and grammar in posting also something of the new 99%? ;-)
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Fat, you are writing in an emotional and angry manner.
You denergrate anyone who has an opposing veiw. You come across as a bully who wants everyone to agree with you and to have no other persepctive. This is not the way to contribute.
To add to the topic, what have you done to change the system? Who have you contacted in the government? Who have you lobbied? What research have you done? Just tell us what have you done to improve the helper's lives and working conditions?
You cannot continue to write in an abusive manner if you haven't done anything to improve the situation.
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fata not all helpers are well-educated and forced to working for a pittance. My helper is illeterate when she started her first contract with me she didn't speak a word of English. She is now on her second contract with me and would like to renew again. This job has helped her to reduce her massive debts back home in Sri Lanka. Something she would not have been able to do if she had stayed on Sri Lanka where wages are not even 1/3rd what they are in Hong Kong. I suggest you do some research before you get on your soap box.
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she just sounds drunk ? Maybe she is a very bitter helper herself?
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Cluck
12 yrs ago
Agree with you guys - sorry Fata but as cookie mentioned above your ramblings just made me stop reading your post.
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Oh, my dear Fata;
Well, bravo for you and your righteous indignation at the inequality and unfairness of the world. I think you must be very young. (I hope you are.) I say this not only from your writing style, but for the fact that your indignation is directed at the unfairness of the Hong Kong domestic helpers and the expats, (we are on asiaEXPAT.com after all) who employ them; and finally because the "Why Did We Abolish Slavery..." link you posted offers no solid solutions, only a solicitation and airy-faery "Take a Stand!" "Be aware!", "Technology will save us!" rhetoric.
Unfortunately, the uneven playing field is far more uneven than you can imagine, (or are addressing here, at any rate). You can read and write, (reasonably well) and have access to a computer, heck, even if you just have enough food, a roof over your head and clean water to drink, you are in the top 50% of people on the globe. You are a 'HAVE', not a 'have not'. (Incidentally, my helper and all of her family and friends I know of, can also read and write and also have computers, food, shelter, clean water... Yes, that makes them also 'haves', although many in their home countries are most decidedly 'have-nots').
This is globally; encompassing many divergent 'systems' of governance and economic distribution. NONE of them achieve the utopia your "Slavery..." link aspires to; where no one will work and no one will starve and all will share equally while the machines do all the work for us. No system in history ever has achieved that perfect equanimity , no matter how abundant the resources or fair the system of distribution and power. The poor have always been with us and that playing field has always been tilted, (albeit not 1/2 so tilted as it is today). The 'systems' are not at fault, the people running them are. When you can abolish human greed and corruption, Frankly, any of the governmental or economic systems can work perfectly well. Ergo; none of them ever will.
"Consider that the table could turn, and unfortunately it will for many because this system is unsustainable and human greed has reached its full potential,..."
I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. The bad people are not going to suffer and the good receive their just rewards. If the 'Revolution comes', if the tables are turned, there will still be injustice, and history has taught us that the poor will be the ones to suffer the most. They always have been.
IMHO, The best we can do is stay vigilant. Not only vigilant as active citizens, lobbying or government for laws we think are fair and right, but in ourselves as human beings. In our actions EVERY. DAY. In how we behave towards each other, how we conduct our business to each other; determines how we DEMAND other businesses large and small behave to us.
Well, this is getting very long (and RAMBLING! haha!)
Don't ever lose that fiery passion to right the wrongs you see, but as others on the board have already advised: Find some more TANGIBLE way to make a change than just ranting at anonymous posters on a message board. That solves nothing.
Best of luck in your crusade. Keep it up.
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Oh dear. Obviously I shouldn't have a helper. I'll have to fire her. I'm sure she'll be ecstatic.
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Consider the local Hong Kong workers who earn $8000 and have to support a family such as paying for food, rent, medicines, utilities, transportation. I don't think the helpers have it so bad financially.
I've had a hard time hiring a helper as not many wants to work for a family of 4 with a dog and two kids under 10. Having a helper is certainly a privilege but if you have kids, work full time and no family support; you might have to.
Fata - just wondering if you work full time, have children, and no grandparents to help?
I have heard that the Phils are going to reduce the number of helpers that they allow to work as helpers in foreign countries. This might be the reason that the HK government recently signed an agreement with Bangladesh to allow their people to work in HK. There will always be rich and poor. As long as the business transaction is a win-win situation for both parties, I don't see why it's wrong to hire a helper.
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I agree with Cara and Axptguy on this.
The expats with fat incomes are a minority here. The rest of Hong Kong struggle to get by with their low salary, making it almost impossible to increase the pay of their helpers. Most would do it willingly if they had a fat income simply because they are entrusting their children with the helpers.
The wives of rich expats don't need to work - they can help out at home so their helpers have it easier. They are rich enough to pay helpers wayyy above the minimum wage - that's great. But please don't belittle those who can't afford to do the same. A rich expat wife for instance (a native english speaker) without a degree in education can teach English for $400 per hour. I know a few friends who are doing this so I speak from experience. They do 10 hours of this a month and that's the pay for a helper. A local hongkonger needs to put in 96 hours (that's nine times the amount of effort) to get the same. If a native english speaker without qualification puts in the same 96 hours, she would get HK$38k a month!
I have an incredible helper right now and I'm so grateful to her that if I had the money, I would pay her ten times what she gets now for the effort she's put in.
Fata, it's great that you question the gap between domestic helpers and employers... but to focus just on this is misleading. You have to consider as well that the majority of HK locals are NOT rich expats. Have you ever mingled with the locals to find out how hard their lives are? Do you know that despite being paid so little, many are forced to work long hours? I really, really feel that expats should mix with the locals, not just those at the top levels but really speak to the public - the local grocery shop owner, the security guard, the cleaners at the public toilets, the library staff, the Chinese school teacher, the clerk, the shop assistants, the stackers at the supermarkets etc. Ask them why they hire helpers and why they are not able to pay above the minimum to their helpers. Until you've done that, what you say is really insulting to the majority of Hongkongers.
Btw, I'm NOT a hongkonger but an expat who does not fall into the "rich" category.
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So Fata, what have you done to try and change the evil system you are so passionate about?
Words come easy.
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Puti
12 yrs ago
Under the Hong Kong Employment Ordinance – and therefore under our Basic Law an MDW (Migrant Domestic Worker) enters Hong Kong armed with their “Employment Contract for a Domestic Helper Recruited Abroad”
This outlines things such as: minimum wage, living conditions, food allowance, repatriation, maternity leave, rest days, public holidays, annual leave and clear procedure in case of termination.
In many countries, no such laws exist. Migrant workers are not considered part of the work force. For this, Hong Kong is held up as an example. Whatever you may think about the current working environment of a HK Domestic Helper, do know we are one of the leaders in labour rights, law and protection of MDW's. I am not going to argue why we need helpers, or how much they should be paid. Why a person leaves the country of their birth and seeks employment overseas is their business. This is not slavery, this is two individuals entering a contract that is clear and enforcable under the laws of this country.
I do hold one aspect of our law relating to the Domestic Helper Employer Contract in extreme contempt. My helper is an adult and as such she should be able to 'leave work for the night.' Currently, under the law it is illegal for me to allow her to do so. This law places me in a very uncomfortable position. I am younger than my helper, yet for some very cloudy reason, I can sleep whereever I want, and she has to sleep always at my house.
Laws change over time for good reason. Populations change, values change. Does the Hong Kong
Basic Law need to change with regard to MDW's – of course. But how do we help this change. Between reading this debate and writing this reply I realised that for me, the live-in rule is unconstitutional and illegal and needs to be changed. I will focus some energy into finding ways to change the live-in system.
I am a child of migrant workers. My parents left their home country and set up in a country with an unfamiliar language and customs. They worked hard and as such I have had advantages that distant family have not. I believe in the migrant working system.
From the Movie The Hobbit (2012) - Gandalf talking to Galadriel:
“Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.”
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"From the Movie The Hobbit (2012) - Gandalf talking to Galadriel:
“Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.”"
Wonderful quote. I agree, but I think it only goes 1/2 way. We 'ordinary folk' still have to remain informed, involved and vigilant in persuading our leaders to form, tweak, 'perfect' the systems that govern us, (as much as we can).
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Tune
12 yrs ago
Because it is, it works and who cares?
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despite the tone of his/her argument, Fata has some valid points, and it seems the crru of his/her argument is the amount of money paid to a helper
so, Fata, what would you consider a decent wage for the job ?
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FKKC
12 yrs ago
Yes Fata, I am also curious to how much you paid all the people who worked for you these past 17 years when you were in Asia. Must be a lot.
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I think Fata is living in a self create illusion where she/he thinks they have a choice, and everything has conspiracy, where in fact we are living in evolving cultures that follow the path of least resistance to arrive where they are now.
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I think fata needs a fatwa what a loud mouthed self opinionated horror she is I won't attempt argue with her here as it is clearly a waste of time but I would love to know more about her background no wait a minute I don't think so, just imagine being married to her or having hers a neighbour I think we are all lucky that she gets her thing by writing in forums like this.
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Based upon the writings of Fata above I think she studied Marxism. All are created equal in Cuba. All workers are united, all have the same standing under the government and none are more powerful or richer than others. That is why you have doctors drive taxis and laborers doing the same. Eduation and standing are nothing under the Cuban government. All are equal. I suggest you experience this lifestyle. Castro has been trying it since the 50's. It produces results for all and for none at the same time.
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mayo
12 yrs ago
I disagree with people who say wages should be based on the conditions in an employees home country from both a economical and ethical viewpoint. Does this rule apply to other sectors as well? Wages should based on supply and demand in the place where one is employed and if you look at the wages of part time helpers where this is the case the wages are much higher. As an analogy more about ethics than market: if you saw a person eating from rubbish and your pantry and rubbish bin were both full would you offer them more rubbish or food from your pantry. After all rubbish is what they are used to and two piles of rubbish has got to be better than one. The fact is most people can afford to pay their helpers more but they prefer to lavish more money on they're own lives while quieting their conscience with platitudes of how they have rescued their helper from a worse life. Life is unfair and this is life but lets not applaud ourselves for it.
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hey mayo, your views are your way of rationalising the situation
in fact, the helper's pay determination has absolutely nothing to do with the standard of living in the Philippines
it is based on what the market is willing to bear for the services rendered
if the rate was too low to be attractive to BOTH employers and employee, neither will take up the offer of employment or to employ
simple but that's all there is to it
don't believe me ? well just ask all the helper's to leave their job
if one is willing to work for a rate of pay then that's what its market value is
end of story
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mayo
12 yrs ago
Gee Whiz I would equate it to women's rights in the early to mid nineteen hundreds. Ask the then secretary who was more qualified than her boss if she wanted to leave, she would probably say no because she needs the wage and there is nothing better on offer. Just because the system is not right doesn't mean people can afford to opt out. Where there was said to be a glass ceiling for women I believe there is concrete ceiling for FDH in Hong Kong. In a place where non FDH child care is very hard to come by the market forces, if not artificially controlled, would allow them to command a much higher wage. I am not saying I agree with the OP. In fact I think he/she came out swinging and did their opinion a disservice. Neither am I saying I know the solution. What I am saying is lets acknowledge there is an injustice and a lot of us are cogs in the system. Let's not hold ourselves up as paragons of virtue.
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oh I do agree with your latest reasoning but again I think you're being selective
I too cannot walk away from my job because of commitments so does this make my job remuneration unfair ?
unfortunately life is unfair, but it is fair in that it is unfair too everyone, just in different ways
why do you think there are so many helpers, not happy with their conditions change employers after their contract ?..........because they have chosen to exercise a choice they have
ultimately we all have choices and decisions to make as we go through life, simple as that
I did not ask to be born french and neither did the helpers ask to be born filipino, we are what we are, that's all there is to it
a free market means we can choose to walk away, not that we can........it's the ability to exercise this choice that makes it free
so don't equate employment terms and conditions that do not meet one's expectations with slavery as the original poster did, it quickly becomes a slippery slope and we can all find ourselves in the same situation, only difference that define us is the amount of money involved
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And it is very, very wrong to think that employers who pay the minimum are treating their helpers like slaves.
Sorry but to think that the majority of hongkongers are as well off as the expats that come on this forum is grossly misleading.
Fata has mentioned that he is in a position of priviledge so we all hope that he is doing his part to be generous. To someone in his position, giving his helper an extra $2-3k a month is nothing. But imagine a local hongkonger on a basic salary. I know one local family who is terribly afraid of losing their helper so they offer $200 payrise but it means the wife brings instant noodles (cup noodles to be exact) to eat for her lunch when she's at work.
None of you who are in a higher position see these things, nor are these things shared with all the top executives.
Sadly her helper has given her one month's notice because she has some family issues back in the Phillipines... now, not only does she have the stress of needing to find someone within one month, but she also needs to fork out extra to pay her helper's flight and agents fees for a new helper.
No one in Fata's position will ever have to worry about things like this.
I also have another friend of mine - we were out for brekkie and we ordered noodles with curry fishballs. The fishballs were really spicy! Despite jumping up and down because it was so spicy, she refused to buy a boxed juice preferring to wait until she went into the office for water. The boxed juice was only $6!
I have another friend (a housewife) needing to borrow HK$1k from me just until her husband got his salary the week after. After she repaid me, she decided to treat me for lunch. She bought only a bowl of noodles and asked me to eat it. She told me she'd only have a few bites because she was on a diet and didn't feel like eating. Do any of the rich expats ever have to think about things like this? No!
I better not get off the topic... my point is, Fata and those of you who are rich, call this slavery because you earn a hell of a lot of money. Others are not as lucky to be able to pay so much to their helpers and the govt of HK recognises this.
Unless HK citizens are paid better, it is really tough for the majority (I daresay the majority) to offer more to their helpers and I'm sure many Hongkongers would love to do so ---- contrary to the incorrect beliefs that hongkongers mistreat their helpers. It's not that hongkongers mistreat their helpers but expats having too much money to give, don't need to work as late and have wives sitting at home so the helpers feel that they are treated better by expats. These are words from a local chinese mother (a friend) working for an expat boss!
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mayo
12 yrs ago
Gee Whiz I think where we differ is: is scale the deal breaker. Your opinions are food for thought nice debating with you. AaliyahM I agree the OP's comparison of FDH situation to slavery was wrong and I also agree this is not the only injustice in society.
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kolz
12 yrs ago
i gotta admit, tl:dr (sure, you can shoot me on this), but isn't there a sayin': treat others as you want to be treated? i am pretty sure everyone have the capability to put yourself in other people's shoes, right intelligent beings?
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FIFIB
12 yrs ago
Kolz,
you are totally right if the helper is doing the same job as a banker, teacher, pilot etc I do not see why her salary should be any different.
Also same if the banker is not longer a banker but a helper instead he/she should get paid $4000 per month
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RCD
12 yrs ago
hey they are xpats!!! in the end--- room food airfare days off holidays ect.. not to mention they are making like 5 times what they can in P or 10times indo or 15 times cambodia----we are all slaves in the end just they get their food airfare days off ect. plus when their mom or grand ma or bother or who ever gets sick in hospital they need a loan---or they are loan sharks or playing toung it ... Slave give me a break have you been to P that life is slave pittance?????? salary is like 100usd 4000 pesos per month... plus they live here it goes on and on yes they have to work and yes there are some bad employers... life sucks and then you die...try making 30000 HK per month and you have to pay all expenses and have to organize that whole bit deal with the pressure!!! of not being an xpat paying for room holidays food one is just breaking even after expenses... Maids do not have to worry just do their job and hang out during holidays take a look at how many days they get off a year!!!!!1 day per week counting and holidays like 152 days per year slaves???? ...and of course they get thier long service!!!! they are thick as thieves yo in dream world
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Good for you Fata. Hiring a maid from abroad and paying her a wage that the locals would not take is wrong. Everyone here knows that it is wrong, but no one wants to give it up.
Anyone with morals and values walks around this town and wonders why all the dark skinned people are working for the light skinned people. It's like a trip back in time.
What is really funny is that some people actually pretend like they are doing a good deed by hiring a helper and treating her well. Funny, if it wasn't so sad.
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I was going to stay out of this thread, but I just can't.
The OP throws around the word slave way to many times for me to let it go.
By definition a slave has no choice, they are bought and sold at the whim of an owner.
No DH in my experience has ever signed a contact unwillingly, the contract clearly lays out the terms of employment. They have the right to quit if they wish...a slave cannot leave.
OP is clearly not happy with the world's system of employer/ employee and wages earned/ wages paid system. So what are you going to do about it?
The vast majority of money that keeps the Phill country ongoing is due to money remitted from overseas. The government of the people needs to change to make it better for people to stay at home and work and not have to leave the country to support a family.
Are you a part of the government of the people?
Slaves? ....Really? Under your definition the slavemakers in HK society are those who make it necessary to have two incomes to afford a place to live. If HK did not have anymore DH, then mothers would need to quit and take care of their own kids. They couldn't afford to pay the rent then. Your reasoning is off IMHO.
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Fata, you finally make sense..............the issue is not about slavery although you still allude to this
the issue is the helpers are here and HK and should be paid the minimum wage like anyone else here in HK and work the normal 10-12 hour days
to this I fully agree........................but then they should also
1. pay for their own place to rent and live
2. pay for their own food
3. pay for their own medical
4. pay for their own passage back at the end of each contract
5. pay for their own transport fees to and from work
6. get all the statutory public holidays
Go ahead and press for this change and I am sure the helpers will all see you as their GOD :)
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Fata,
Until I hear what exactly you are doing about this injustice I will consider you a troll.
You're quite good at it by the way!
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Yes, being a helper is not slavery cause it was our choice but we never expected that most of us will be treated in a bad way.
Yes, we have a choice to leave our employers if they are not good to us and even we want to choose to leave, most of us just can't specially the ones who are new helper here in hongkong because before they came here, they spent big amount of money ranging from PHP100,000- PHP150,000 for those who paid in full to their agencies and most of us borrowed this amount just to come here. Most chooses to stay and suffer just to pay their debts and give a better living for their own family.
Yes, we have rights but most are not being respected by employers but some do and i really appreciated them.
For the employers who don't provide us enough food, who don't provide us good accommodation and some even let their helper sleep on the bathtub, on the floor and on the sofa, foe employers who let us work during our day off, if we complain about this, will the labor do something about it? Most helper who complained just got terminated.
If we got terminated, and if we look for new employers with the help of agencies, we have to pay HKD8000-HKD12,000 to them and its illegal for them to charge us this much cause the law says that they should only charge us 10% of our one month income but again helpers don't have choice but to grab it or they can find employers by themselves but this is difficult.
I have been here for 1 year and 5 months and i have met a lot of helpers who have worst situation than me. The employers wanted to control us in every way. They don't want us to talk with other helpers, i even have a friend whom the employer got her mobile phone, they tell us when to eat, when to take shower, when to sleep, when to wash our clothes etc.
Its just complicated for us, i cant explain everything. All we want is just to be treated as a normal person not like a robot.
Lucky for the helpers who have good employers but there are some helpers who are stupid enough to abuse the goodness of their employers.
For helpers who got fired and who breached the contract, its more difficult to find employers compared to the ones who finish contract.
When i was three months here, i started looking for an employer myself so that i don't have to pay an agency but until now i didn't find one. Its either they want a finish contract, someone who is married and with kids, someone who is 30 years old and above, someone who cooks well or fluent in English. How about us who do not possess these qualifications, whats our chance of finding an employer by ourselves?
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Hey Marilyn,
I hear you and agree with all you say but what you have described can be found in any job in any society, the issues are not specific to helpers alone
There are many workers who feel unappreciated by their boss, feel exploited, and do not think they ar epaid their worth
All this aside, there is still a rate determined by the market for work to be done, simple economics, nothing more, nothing less
Would you work as a helper for free ? I am sure no, so in fact you have defined a floor to what you are willing to tolerate
Would you work as a helper for HK25,000 a month ? If yes, then you have defined a price point upon which youa re prepared to work
Now, the flip side of this transaction is what an employer is willing to pay
Will an employer be willing to pay nothing for your services ? I am sure he/she will say Yes, but unfortunately you will say No, so this price point is a deal breaker
Will an employer be willing to pay HK25,000 a month for your services ? I am sure he/she will say NO, but you will say Yes, so this is also a deal breaker
Now, between these 2 price points will be price where both the employer and employee will be able to compromise, and that is all there is to it
The issue about payment you ahve to amek to get a job is nothing new, it happens even to regular jobs that are handled by recruiting agencies. There is a fee to pay for the services rendered. Now, do I think the fee is high, hell yeah, but that is an issue that needs to be sorted out with the Philippine consualte and pilippino agents and not just the local HK agents........everyone wants to make a buck along the food chain. If you don't like the system then do something about it to change it.
Last but not least, as for the job where the boss appreciates you, willing to pay you what you want, treats you with respect, love you too bits, tolerates your whims, and will bend over backwards to keep you........well, when you do find it please let us all know so we can join the queue :)
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This is such an annoying thread - Fata!
Such rigtheous attitude makes the world a crazy place to live in..
For Marilyn - I agree with Gee Whiz. If you do not like to work here, to pay the
agency fee, you can go back to your home country and start your own business with the money you will give the agencies. No one is forcing you to pay! Actually, you are participating with that system when you agree to pay.
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My point is having the employer employee relationship and Not worst than that and We are not asking to be treated like a family or a friend.
Before we came here, we didn't expect to be treated this way cause if we do then we should have not been here in the first place.
We should have not spent thousands of money. Some even sell their possession just to have something to use in coming here.
And now that we are here despite of the situation we have, we cant just easily quit because we have spent much just to be here. We have to pay those money back first.
Arlina
To start a business in the Philippines, that money is not enough specially when your in the city and i don't have that money yet but that is the exact reason why i came here. To be able to save and invest into something when i have enough savings.
The only options not to pay a lot in getting an employer is by finding an employer by yourself or when you finish the two year contract. The agency charges you only 10% for this compared if your a break contract or terminated.
THE MAIN ISSUE IN HERE IS NOT THE SALARY THAT WE GET BUT THE WAY WE ARE TREATED.
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ahhh.........Marilyn
at least, from your last sentence we have now established that FATA is wrong in his/her assertions
so we can close this thread and if you like start a new one on they way helpers are treated.
case closed !
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My point is having the employer employee relationship and Not worst than that and We are not asking to be treated like a family or a friend.
Before we came here, we didn't expect to be treated this way cause if we do then we should have not been here in the first place.
We should have not spent thousands of money. Some even sell their possession just to have something to use in coming here.
And now that we are here despite of the situation we have, we cant just easily quit because we have spent much just to be here. We have to pay those money back first.
Arlina
To start a business in the Philippines, that money is not enough specially when your in the city and i don't have that money yet but that is the exact reason why i came here. To be able to save and invest into something when i have enough savings.
The only options not to pay a lot in getting an employer is by finding an employer by yourself or when you finish the two year contract. The agency charges you only 10% for this compared if your a break contract or terminated.
THE MAIN ISSUE IN HERE IS NOT THE SALARY THAT WE GET BUT THE WAY WE ARE TREATED.
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Sorry for that same message
Oh Yes, case closed!
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Marilyn Alyao there are always two sides to the story. If you are not being treated well you need to reflect to see if you have some part to play in the treatment. I'm not sure of your entire situation but the fact that you spend a fair bit of your day posting on thsi website may be a cause for concern to your employer and may precipitate some of the problems you are experiencing.....
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My time posting on this site don't have something to do with that.
I'm not allowed to use phone at home so i just use it when I'm out like when I'm waiting for the their child outside the school and at night time
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Helpers are workers just like most of us who work for others. We also have bad employers who do not appreciate us and expect us to perform to unreasonable standards. We have to follow the employers rule when we work for them such as when we show up for work, when we can have breaks, lunch, whether we can eat at our desk or not. Some employers call us after hours about work. Some times, we have to spend the weekend at the office because of deadlines. Some office / working ladies (sorry men but this usually happen to ladies) also have experienced harassment, sexism, lewd jokes etc...Some of us stick it out because we have families and there are no better jobs elsewhere. Some of us complain and also lose our jobs. Some of us quit and find another job or become unemployed. Are helpers different from us? I think we have more similarities then differences.
Marilyn, which part of being a helper surprised you after coming here? Had you never talked to anyone who worked in HK before you came here? Were you misled into coming here to work without any inkling as to the costs and conditions of working as a helper?
Marilyn, just after being here for 3 months, you started looking for a new employer. Did the employer who sponsored you here wronged you in some ways within the 3 months? You said employers are looking for people who can cook, fluent in English etc... as if these requirements are unreasonable / unrealistic. As employers, we must have requirements for employees who can best fit our needs. As employees, helpers also have preferences such as single employers, no babies, convenient location, no pets, no old people, etc... Helpers do not have to sign contracts with employers who do not fit their requirements.
It is the employee's responsibility to 'up their game' by learning how to cook, improve their English etc... if they want to get certain types of jobs. Good luck Marilyn!
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Sorry for being so long!
I don't want make comment on the subject of helpers getting a fair go or not, other than saying there are always two sides the story and normally there is a bit of bullshit on both.
I would like to outline a situation which I was involved in which may or may not be an extreme case.
I am from a western country and my wife is from the Philippines! My wife’s sister came from the Philippines to be a domestic helper in Sai Wan Ho (Hk Island) and soon after she started work she was complaining to my wife of working very long hours, not being allowed time to eat, and when she did sleep it was on the living room floor while the deaf grand mother had the TV on a high volume while she was dozing of the sofa.
About 2 weeks in to the job she passed out in the apartment and the ambulance was calling to take her to hospital. After I arrived at the hospital the doctor told me she was over tried and not eating correctly.
Post this she returned to the job and tried to get on with it, but the problems continued.
This seemed to be distressing my wife to the point where she was not sleeping. I made the decision that this cannot go on and told my wife that her sister needs to suck it up and find a way to make it work or resign.
She chose the later and called me to help her write her resignation letter. I outlined in the letter that she had worked 28 days (ish) and quoted the employment ordnance that an employee may terminate the contract without notice if they are ill treated by the employer and she was claiming ill treatment as the reason for her immediate departure. I highlighted that the pervious 28 days wages would be waived if the employer would accept the resignation and my sister in law would not seek any further action. She was saying, let me depart now and all will be forgotten.
All of the above was to put the next part in to context.
My wife when to the residence and knocked on the door and her sister answered the door. She handed her the resignation letter and waited outside for what seemed a long time. A while later her sister called her from inside and said “I am locked in the bathroom and they wont let me out until I agree to stay”
My wife rang me in a panic and I told her to ring the police who turned up very quickly and spoke with the employer. She was still not allowed out of the house and the police were telling her she must stay and keep working!
My wife rang me back and explained, so I asked to speak to the police officer who refused to speak to me. I called about 5 minutes later asking for the police officer name and they wouldn't give it to my wife or the badge number. I told her that I would be there in about 30 minutes.
I arrived and within 1 minute of me talking to the police officer the sister in law was outside standing next to me. The employer was screaming at me and everyone was upset and crying. The police told me she could not leave the house until she paid the employer 1 months pay. I said that she was waiving the right of the 28 days of pay and also the right to take any further action. The police insisted that she must pay the 1 months notice which I argued for about 4 or 5 minutes. I then started calling the police and asking for the district boss on duty.
Now the police started to listen and agreed I was right. However the employer was still going nuts so I offered 2k for her “trouble” but she wanted a signed letter from my sister in-law different to what I have written. My sister inlaw was handed a letter in Chinese’s and asked to sign. I told her to write “signed under duress + her name” the police looked at it and so did the employer. I handed over my cash and we all departing (including the police).
We all go in the lift together and the police told me she was crazy and does this many time. I was angry with the police but smiled and when home peacefully.
Now my point – Can you image what it must be like for someone from small village in the Philippines or anywhere else similar to have to deal with this when they make their choice that they current employment relationship is not working out!
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truly shocking and very annoying story, Beermoney.
does anyone know how such people can be sued? I mean it's ridiculous that they should be able to get away with this
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yes truly shocking, don't let this rest and follow through with court action
such employers should not be allowed to ever employ a helper
make sure you spread the word among the helper community of this employer and make sure no helper ever agree to work for them
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The employee in question (not the relative) needs to file a case against the employer at the Phil Consulate. They take this type of behavior very seriously and will not allow them to have another helper.
I know this for a fact.....I know a lady who was banned for six months from hiring, she had to sign a paper that she wouldn't do that particular type of behavior again. She signed a paper!
She appealed, got another helper and...wait for it...did the SAME thing she had signed saying she would not do to the new helper!
this lady has entitlement issues, she is the wife of a Dr. so she believes she can get away with a great deal because she uses his job as an excuse.
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I take your point about following though with more action and somewhat agree, however seeing the police stance before I arrived, I am not sure how far I would get in a court. Secondly it wasn't my fight, therefore not the decision maker about more action.
My sister in law wasn't interested as she has grown up in a place where you don't want to make trouble or you could be found dead. The local "captain" extorts money from people and is known for killing people who asks too many questions, so they have a very thick skin and know how to suck it up and move on.
Re the employer! I know the father is a tram driver and see him often working and the wife works in Sogo as a make up sales lady. Their income was less than 20k to support 3 adults and 2 children, so I think their economic woes would be punishment enough while they looked for a new helper. At the end of the day any money paid in fines or time away from earning a living (dealing with a court) effects the kids more than the parents.
Please keep in mind the purpose of my long post yesterday was to let people see that sometime it's not so easy, to simple resign and move to a better employer. I do agree that the system needs improvement and there should be an effect method for dealing with bothsh*tty employees and employers.
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Beermoney, this is awful. Its irrelevant how much the wife and husband earns ect, the truth of the matter is this, even if you are poor(ish) (as it's relative), you can still treat your helper reasonably well so that she doesn't faint/suffer excessively ect. The fact that the wife/husband ect think they can behave like this (in front of the plice no less!) gives you some measure of what your SIL has had to put up with when no-one has been aroudn to vet their behaviour.
I would definitely make a huge deal of this - but as it's your SIL's call and she choose to forget and get on with it - then what can you do.
Finally, I think less problems would have been had, had your SIL terminated her contract with payment of one month's salary in lieu of notice. This would have had the effect of them handing you over 28 days wages + one way fare to Phillipines, then you returning the 28 days wages plus a couple hundred more (to make up to 3900 of whatever the monthly contracted wage was). In the end your SIL would have been up a couple of hundred and it would have been the end of the story. The way you proposed it may have seemed like in the heat of the moment, that your SIL was trying to leave without paying the one month in lieu.
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Have to admit I have scrolled through most of this thread, Fata's long winded rather venomous arguments put me off reading it all. However, since I've lived in Hong Kong I've seen so many of these threads about how helpers have it so bad and yadda yadda yadda.....
Simple fact is both my husband and I work full time because yes, Hong Kong is an expensive place to live. I have to pay ridiculous school fees for my kids to go to school (no, they can't go to local school for free, they don't speak Cantonese) and rent costs an arm and a leg. I have no choice, I need to work and so I need a helper to take my children to school and pick them up and do the grocery shopping etc as I simply cannot and don't have the time. Does this make me such a horrible person Fata? I would LOVE to be able to be a stay at home Mum so I could be with my children and not miss many of their special events at school but if I want to stay here in Hong Kong I have no choice but to work. My helper is treated like a member of the family, my children love her and she loves them and my husband and I appreciate all the help she offers our family.
My last helper was in Hong Kong for 6 years and we were sorry to see her leave. She worked hard and saved her money (she had very few expenses) and had set herself the goal of returning to the Philippines. She used her money wisely and now lives back in her home country and owns two houses outright. Her time in Hong Kong has provided her with financial security for life and she's very happy that she came here and was able to achieve her goal. I am happy that I could help her achieve this as well. It's not called slavery, it's called working!! It's called earning money to set yourself up in life. Some people are bankers, some are cashiers, some are helpers, some clean toilets.....we all have our lot in life but with hard work and by making the right choices and sometimes sacrifices we can change our destiny. Is life fair? No it's not, but it is what it is and ranting on a forum like this does little to change that. Personally, I too would like to live back in my home country in a big house with a garden where the air is fresh but I too want to set myself up financially for my future and my kids.
Are all employers nice to their helpers? No they're not. Some are horrible and should be held accountable for this. Are all helpers nice, honest and hard working? No they're not. There is good and bad everywhere.
Arguing that hiring a helper is the same as having a slave is simply ridiculous.
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guess she is not a dh anymore becoz of the way she acting.just advice her to follow her culture like many other doing in wan chai and many places.thts the free way no slaves nd no employers no argument tottaly fredom,
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Beermoney's anecdote above is just 1 of tens of 1,000's of typical scenarios happening every day.
I've witnessed bullying/denial of rights by Immigration and Labour Department officials, agents, and employers. I've witnessed a local judge allow the employer to give her side in a court hearing, but not allow the domestic worker to give her side. A local Chinese Hong Kong acquaintence to the worker, who was attending the hearing, was also horrified.
As Marilyn Alyao pointed out above, the system evolves around debt-bondage, much of which the workers did not know about before arriving in HK. Workers who are "terminated" by their employer or who terminate their contracts, can look forward to another 3-6 months of debt on signing with a new employer.
Some things you might consider doing to try to help improve the system:
1) Insist that your agent only charge the worker the legal maximum of 10% of the first month's salary, regardless of whether she/he is previously "finish contract" or not, even if it means using a slightly more expensive agent for yourself, if the worker returns home to await her new visa. Or, a more reasonable cost to the worker if she awaits her visa 4-6 weeks in Macau or China (say, $6-8k, not $12-18k!), in a "boarding house" where conditions are often fairly horrible - e.g. 6 to a room with no airconditioner, and no women's sanitary supplies among other things, and are forced to use toilet paper or rags. Passports are held by agents so they can't go outside without permission.
2) Try not to take advantage of the lack of maximum working hours legislation. I think a 12-hour day with a few breaks in between would be more than enough to squeeze out of a domestic worker?
3) Grant every statutory holiday available from the commencement of the contract, NOT FROM 3 MONTHS AFTER the contract starts (as most agents incorrectly advise employers to do).
4) Consider the implications of so-called "the 2-week rule", and whether you believe it should be changed.
5) Consider whether the law which prevents them from working in HK while awaiting a court case hearing (normally 3-4 months) should be changed.
6) At the very least, domestic worker unions would ask everyone to avoid calling them 'helpers', as it cleverly denies them the status of 'worker'. Call them (Foreign/Migrant) Domestic Workers (FDW / MDW), and not Foreign Domestic Helpers (FDH) as the local legislation calls them. It's really not that difficult! You can encourage others to do the same.
If you have any other suggestions, be sure to write them on here.
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two thumbs up for grunter
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3-6 is totally agree. there are some ridiculous laws (but then again they are worse in other places like Singapore - no excuse though)
2) is debateable in my view. it's a negotiation after all (i also work more than 12 hours a day and have accepted that when negotiating my contract with my employer)
1) is the real bugger in my view. I dont have a silver bullet but i think your proposed solutions don't work because the embassies only accept certain agencies to process visas, who are themselves under pressure to pay bribes which are then recovered from helpers. employers should do well to chose the right agency, but i think the real issue lies with corrupt officials in the originating countries... happy to be proven wrong though
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In my next life I want to be a driver. I get to drive around, listen to music, hang around with my homeboys looking like a thug, be able to afford cigarettes, cheat on my wife back home, be able to afford an I phone and I pad all the while being completely absolved of any duties to my wife and children My parents were wrong: going to college is NOT better than freeloading!!!!!
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When some of the live-in domestic helpers in HK are of the opinion they should be paid the minimum wage, in their view what should they be paying their employer for rent and would the rent depend on the size, location and condition of the room in which they are living?
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Ok lets all stop hiring helpers. That means 200,000+ more poverty stricken families in Philippines, Indonesia etc.
Does that justify low wages? Of course not. But as time goes on, because they speak to their helpers, more and more privileged employers become aware of the poverty back in these countries and wages and conditions gradually improve. And that's happening all over the world. If there were no helpers there would be no awareness. Be grateful that an evolution is happening for these people. If you lock them away, refuse to employ them and think you're a good person no progress would ever be made.
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This topic is kind of correct on both parts. I have a friend who is a domestic helper. Her employers are Chinese and treat her well and she makes about 4500 hk a month which I believe is more than most domestic helpers.
My friend is has worked for the couple for almost 15 years and has grown fond of them. The large part of her income is sent to her family who would suffer without it to be sure. She is grateful to have her employer.
Now lets examine her work. She works six days a week with Sundays off. She is given the required holidays and vacation time. Her work day begins at 7 am monday through friday and 8 am on saturday. Her work day usually ends at 9 pm unless her employer has a late night at work in which case it could be as late as 11 pm. She often works for several weeks straight without a day off if her boss decides to host a mahjongg party on Sunday.
She is one of the lucky few domestic helpers with a private room about the size of a walk in closet with a private bathroom. Many domestic helpers are forced to sleep with the children or in rooms not much larger than the single bed they are provided for sleeping.
My friend works 83 hours a week for 4500 HK a month. Assuming 2 holidays per month that works out to less than $14 hk an hour. Considering what any worker would expect for overtime pay this hardly compensates for an inadequate sleeping room, insurance, and food. These workers are exploited beyond any doubt. The fact that these workers are from impoverished countries does not excuse the exploitation.
Some here have said that wages are improving, yet the law only provides for a minimum wage. There is nothing keeping any of you from paying them what they deserve. How many of you would be bold enough to post a copy of your servants contract and a photo of their sleeping area? I imagine most would be ashamed to do so. (It would not be legal to do so anyway, but that is beside the point.)
God created this world to work much like a farm. You plant a seed and eventually reap a harvest. Be careful what seeds you plant lest the harvest fall on you or your future generations.
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Our helper, for want of a better word since she does have a first name, which we prefer, is currently singing a rendition of I will always love you with my daughter. She started work at 9 and she'll be done at 4.30. She has never worked a weekend in her life that I know of and neither has our next door neighbour's 'helper' who is sitting the garden now having a bit of down time. We like to have lunch from around 12-2. Perhaps it boils down to what kind of an employer you want to be. I heard that helpers were meant to work on Good Friday. Needless to say we had no helper from Thursday to Tuesday. Although it was difficult feeding ourselves and keeping clean for so long we managed it.
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i'd like to correct a misconception from RevJim, who posted:
My friend works 83 hours a week for 4500 HK a month. Assuming 2 holidays per month that works out to less than $14 hk an hour. Considering what any worker would expect for overtime pay this hardly compensates for an inadequate sleeping room, insurance, and food. These workers are exploited beyond any doubt.
Actually, you need to figure in the room and meals also as earnings. RevJim's friend's salary isn't "just" $4500/mo. It's [$4500 + meals + roof over head]/ month. Our helper eats what we eat and we purchase rather pricy cuts of meat/fish and organic vegetables/fruits/grains. I agree that the "room" isn't ideal, but then again, it's not ideal for much/most of the HK population. Our home here in Hong Kong is the size of my first apartment that I had when I was living by myself. Now, this same size houses an entire family.
Unfortunately, the culture here actually makes it difficult not to get a helper. There aren't many options (if any) for daycare or before & after-school care.
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maxis
12 yrs ago
Roof over head is YOUR expense as an employer BananaMom.
Sure the food is an expense to you but your choice to give expensve cuts of meat and fish.
Anyhow it is still dirt cheap to have helper so be kind and generous.
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Even factoring a a room and meals the salary is exploitation. I happen to know there are thousands of nonprofessional Chinese citizens of Hong Kong who would jump at the chance to provide in-home day care. You don't use them because the law would require you to pay them many times what a contract worker would be paid.
Employers routinely reimburse airfare. My offer included airfare from the United States and a large apartment rent-free. I would never discount my salary for these perks.
Finally, the law does not limit employers to pay meager wages. It sets a minimum standard.
I admit Western employers generally treat OCW's better than Chinese employers, but the exploitive pay is an embarrassment to us all.
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Yes, RevJim, but do not forget that the locals aren't on the same salary as western employers.
As cara, rightfully points out, even the locals have it tough. In order to provide better for the foreign domestic helpers, the government has to do something to help their own first and only then can the HK society as a whole afford to pay a higher salary to their helpers.
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I appreciate your reply Gemma, but it is simply rationalization for participating in an unethical practice. Hong Kong law provides a minimum salary for your, or your partners, occupation as well. Would you accept that minimum in exchange for room and board?
I know of helpers in Hong Kong who have been with the same employer for over a decade and still make the minimum allowed salary, or a small fraction above it. Minimums are meant to establish a minimum standard, they are never meant to be the norm. Are we so incompetent that we need a law passed to treat employees fairly?
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