Posted by
dhcc
16 yrs ago
We've had a wad of foreign currency placed in an envelope in the bottom drawer in our bedroom, and noticed recently the entire envelope was missing. No one else has been in the house recently, so it's natural to think that the helper took it....though we felt it could be that we were absent-minded and also when we asked her, she denied it.
Ever since she started working, a few clothes items have gone missing as well, but I always thought it was blown away when hung out to dry or something - I suspected it might be her, but she also denied knowing anything of the missing clothes.
Not having any hard evidence to prove she stole anything, we placed six HK$100 notes in another drawer recently, and now there are only four. Now we're quite sure we have a thief living under our roof...
What do you suggest we do now? Do we get a nanny cam/spy camera so that we can actually catch her in action? Or....? Otherwise it's just her word against ours.
Thanks for all your help!
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I agree with cara, just fire her. Even tell her if necessary that you put the money there on purpose to see if she would steal it. Then ask her if she wants to admit it. If not, tell her to pack her bags (whilst you and another person are there) and have her leave within the hour.
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If you just sack your maid - some other unsuspecting person may end up with her. Make a police report, complaint against your maid even if you have no hard evidence.
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Despite it being obvious that it must of been your helper who took the cash without proof the police will not be able to do anything. It would be just a case of your word against hers with nothing to back it up unfortunately.
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dhcc
16 yrs ago
Thanks for your replies!
The thing is, it's not like we found our posessions in her room or anything. Though she blatantly fell for our set-up, we can't prove that to the Police. I don't want to call them and have no hard evidence to show that she has been stealing from us.
Like I said it'd just be her word against ours, and if the Police get involved at this stage and then tell us that we have insufficient evidence, she'll know we're on her case and be a lot more careful from now on. That's why I've been wondering how to can catch her red-handed, and the only way I can think of is by using a spy camera. Am I just wasting my time here? Thoughts/suggestions?
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If you are setting up a camera, leave some 'bait', a wad of worthless foreign currency, make a note of all the serial numbers. If you know which bank she normally uses, then you could find out if she has changed the notes.
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I would definitely set up a camera so then you have proof to take to the police.
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Do you really need to go to all that trouble? You may as well hand her the money you spend on a camera. If you are certain it's her stealing, which by all accounts it is, then just sack her now.
Just tell her you have lost any trust in her and it's time to go. Don't put yourself through the stress, it will drive you crazy.
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can you mark the notes, and check her money once the money's gone?
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dhcc,
if u can handle the drama, pls do what u can to file a police report. we don't want any future unfortunate employers!! it could be anybody!
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I would set up a camera and try to catch her. You can also buy a UV ink pen. write on the paper to mark it. copy the serial numbers... and set the trap.
Many helpers think that they can get away with things. If you fire her she can get a job again and do the same again.
BTW, my mom's helper used to say that maybe the ghost took the money. I don't know how to argue with that.
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"BTW, my mom's helper used to say that maybe the ghost took the money. I don't know how to argue with that."
I know I shouldn't, but I'm still laughing!
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Sack her.
You already know the deal, her word or yours, you and hubby know she took it. Nothing worse than a dishonest helper. No use marking bills or checking serial numbers, I mean, I change my foreign currency (when I have it) at Worldwide House...do you think others dont go to a bank, like me? How would the police keep tabs on all that? And if its HK cash, maybe she already bought phone cards or wired it home before you can trace it...again, conveniently done at Worldwide House.
Fire her. You know the drill...like a cheating partner, someone who steals from you and isnt kicked to the curb, will steal from you again. Protect yourself. Quit listening to the advice of others who say "Report it to the police so as to protect FUTURE employers of this thief" Pshhhh...thats just saying, hows about you delay sacking this thief so as to help others! Help yourself! You can only hope that being sacked for stealing will be lesson enough for the thief to not do it again. *Shrug*
If you dont take care of your belongings, no one will do it for you. Theiving of small change is hard to prove and harder to get evidence on. Dont waste your money on cameras...you already know she knicked the stuff...why do you need to tape it too? Go with your gut instinct. I know a lot of people who have fired DH's for the same offense and all you need to tell the immigration department is that she was stealing from you. Proof? Pshhh, there are DH's getting deported when employers lie about them, there is no worries about the ID believing you when you are telling the truth.
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I can't believe it is even a question. A helper lives under your roof as a matter of trust.Sure the HK gov insists these strangers live under our roofs, but that is why we go through the process of interviewing - so that we can select the stranger who we most think we could live with. This includes safety of property. The HK govt insists that these ladies live as part of our families. A family is a unit based on trust. If you can't trust this lady, sack her and get someone in your house who you can trust. BTW, I know she has stolen from you and you are probably loathe to give her even more money she is not entitled to, but I would sack her without notice. You have to give her a month's pay, but it saves having her in your house for a month, carrying your valuables with you every time you leave the house, having to put up with her attitude, and then the potential barrage of lies about unpaid salary and unfair dismissal that the lady in question could throw your way. Good luck, and let me stress that this is your family home, and it has to be comfortable for you and your family. Do you really want to spend the next month wondering if your kids are being looked after, having to lock away your valuables and wear every piece of jewellery you own?
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Can I state the bleeding obvious here?
You are paying a human being to be your live in servant and paying them what? 3000 a month???
What do you expect?
They are human, they deserve more in life I think
I dont for a moment condone theft under any circumstances, but lets face it these women are exploited terribly, 60% have been abused either sexually or physically during their employment,
For the western people here, did you have a live in servant in your home country??
Of course not, because its too expensive (You have to pay them like you would a normal human being) and also there is a strong stigma about having a servant (some would say slave) running after you.
Stop and look at the reality of the situation, it should be quite clear.
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suze
16 yrs ago
Not quite sure of the relevance of your post nicenick78!
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Yes nicenick78, I really don't see the point of your post, the original thread was about theft, and theft is wrong, and most employers have respect for their domestic helpers, except when they step out of line badly, most employers pay their helpers pay their employees at least the minimum wage plus food allowance, and provide a comfortable place for them to live, and many more employers pay more than the minimum, and give lots of extra bonus things also, spoil them for the good job they are doing, which is a lot more than the 3000 you stated, get your facts right. Furthermore I'll give you an example of what my DH has done with her wages, she has bought outright a house, and a seperate piece of farmland back in Fills, she goes on holiday and has been able to afford to buy new furniture and appliances for her home back there. If she was not working in HK she could never even dream of owning all that. We her employers, won't be able to buy things like that when we retire back home, it is all relative to the cost of things where you live in this world. I would disagree with you ?nicenick? and say that the majority of Dh's are not treated like slaves, and that just like anybody else, including some employers, they can go wrong people can be dis-honest, and shouldn't be allowed to get away with it no matter who they are, when you have a DH you are inviting a stranger to share your life and live in your home, with your valuable possessions, so you want somebody you can trust 100%
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Remember when you sack her or get to the time of sacking her you need to change your door locks quickly. She may have a key or have made another copy.
She knows your life patterns, so change them for the next few months to ensure that she does not come back to try to get into the place. Ask you neighbours to keep a look out.
if you have young children, keep them away from her. She may go crazy and do harm or attempt to do harm (it's happened before).
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MR71
16 yrs ago
neenib, thank you, you are a voice of sanity in some frankly rocky waters (judging by the posts above) - I feel sorry for the maids of the posters above who are clearly frustrated rockin roll detectives to quote FF ....unfu#$%kin....beliveable (and 10 pts for those who guess the reference)
dhcc (& others):
a) Call the Police ASAP
don't waste time or money with spy camera, markable ink or anything else, why are you trying to do the polices job for them? You don't need proof for the police to investigate, just reasonable suspicion (which you have) - the rest is up to them. As to your concerns re one persons word if it comes down to this who is the court more likely to believe? The police will advise best way forward (though they may just say to fire her)
b) Fire Her & Inform Agency
Follow the advice above, sit her down, tell her why, explain you are going to inform the agency but that you will not give a reference - don't worry about other people hiring her, everyone asks for references so if she can not give one for your job she will not be hired
c) nicenick78 congratulations, I loved your statistic that "60% have been abused either sexually or physically during their employment" - it always make a posing so much more impressive when people make up statistics - get a life and get off the posts
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I go with whoever said, sack her... Should you worry that she will end up working in another household then steal from them then its better to black list her name from the immigration than to send her to jail. For her family's sake, not for her. As I was told, most new employer contact the helper's ex employer for reference, there you can do your job.
Thanks for your concern to other employer's whom should she be working but Im afraid the help that you want to lend is suspended inside your own house hold.
So there, sack her and make sure she'll get home.
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I would definitley report it to the police. A friend of mine had her diamond ring stolen by the maid. Maid of course denied it so friend called the police and they found it in her luggage which she keeps locked up. You just never know.
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Hi
My friend also was very sad to find that one of her helpers of 4yrs that she had trusted , was syealing money. They also set up a sting to 'prove' it. Despite the numbered 100 dollar bill being in her possession, she still denied it.
They paid her flight back to Thailand that week. Her cousin (the other helper) remained in their employ and was sorry about it all too.
She allowed my friend to drive her all the way to the airport, she entered the front of the airport, but never boarded the flight.
She wasted the airfare.
She left 2 weeks later at her own convenience.
You caqnnot have someone working for you, that you do not trust and who is stealing from you. You already know this so should take steps to find another helper.
She is an adult and you cannot rehabilitate her in your own home!
Cut your losses. If needed, make an excuse for her to leave. She will know why. She will also never admit it anway even if caught red-handed.
If you informed the police they will have her on the next flight back to wherever and she will not enter Hong Kong again easily.
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Dhcc....if you sack her you have to pay her full month salary plus air ticket, local transport and all other expenses. Why would you want to spend all that money when you clearly know she stole from you. I had a similiar maid...we always have wads of foreign currency as my husband and I travel alot for work. Since we had no proof, what we did was on one Sunday when she was out we got people to come in and install cameras which he hid very nicely. Of course she stole again and we had proof on the camera. We called the police. The fact is you not only would use the camera for this maid you will use it in future as well. If you have children it can also be useful you get to see what the child is doing or how the maid is handling the child. So it can be useful to have cameras around. Also, never never tell anybody you have installed cameras in your house.
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Is it legal to install cameras without letting your employee know that they are there? Moreover, do you really want that level of mistrust with someone who lives in your home? Even if it is legal to hide them, any helper doing a decent job of cleaning will find them.
Although I understand your motivation for 'testing' your helper by setting the money trap, it becomes a vicious circle. If you are constantly testing her, life is going to be pretty grim for all of you. Either confront her or let her go. There are some bad apples on either side of the employer/helper fence and perhaps you've been unlucky this time. However, you're going to make your life a misery if you have to tiptoe around cameras etc., assuming that you'll be unlucky again. I honestly believe that the vast majority are as honest as the day is long; our helper returns money to me that she finds in pockets while doing laundry all of the time. Good luck with it!
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Stealing is wrong. No exceptions. And btw, just because a person might happen to unfortunately be from a 'poor' country or background, doesn't mean they are above the law and have the right to commit crimes occasionally.
If you are absolutely sure that she has stolen from you, you should treat it as any other case of theft, and REPORT IT to the authorities and let them handle it according to the rule of law. The authorities will only do what is legal and fair. And if the helper loses her job as a result, perhaps she should have thought of that before she bit the hand that fed her...
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Having a camera in the house does not neccessarily means you have to stare at it the whole day. You can view it whenever you want. Also if the maid knows there is a camera she will never try or make attempts to steal.
My sister had a made whom she thought was stealing too. As she is quite careless she always thinks she misplaced her jewellery but each time she mentions it, somehow it appears again. Soon she started suspecting the maid but she couldn't figure out why she would take the jewellery and return it. One day she went to the maid's room to look through her stuff as an act of desperation she saw many pawn shop reciepts so she took them, went to the pawn shop and realised it was some of her missing jewellery. After going through the slips of documents she realised that each time she says she lost something the maid will then take another piece of jewellery pawns it and return the piece she is looking for and she does this over and over again...so each time she need to take out a piece of jewellery she takes another piece. Trust your maids all you want but unfortunately these maids come from very very poor backgrounds and sadly their families never give a thought on how hard these ladies work they keep coming up with excuses and asks for more money to be sent home and all these maids feel helpless and stealing and more often an act of desperation. I do feel sorry for these maids but they have to realise stealing is not the way to solve problems. Also, we did not hire them to be taken advantage off.
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Interesting points about cameras, and, come to think of it cameras would not even have to be connected to be a good deterrent. These "dummy cameras" (as security companies call them) could perhaps be placed around the house in strategic locations and in plain view in order to help make the employer feel more re-assured as well as avoid privacy violations. (Obviously, to be effective these cameras would have to look real and the party you are hoping to monitor would have to believe that they have been properly connected and installed.)
Having said that, many working moms that I know have web cams installed at home to keep an eye on their kids (and perhaps their helpers) while they are at work. Not so much because of a blatant lack of trust for anyone, but rather as a safety measure... and if those same webcams to monitor safety also help prevent any mis-behaviour at home, then that's an added bonus.
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I think you have to report it, because it's the same with a child, if they don't think the repercussions are too bad, then they continue to engage in habits that are worth the risk.
Think of the next unsuspecting, trusting employer with small kids having to go through same old thing and it does tarnish the reputation of the good and honest helpers who are doing the job they agreed to do under the contract, money and conditions that they signed.
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For expats, its worth thinking what you would do in your own country.
Its inconceivable that you would have a cleaner stealling from you (or that your mother /grandmother would etc etc) without taking action.
There have always been 'light-fingered' employees.
Being in Asia doesn't make it right.
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i understand the situation u r facing now, actually same thing happend to me recently my one yellow gold bangle and a digital camera has been disappeared i am living with my little daughter and a helper i am very tense because the helper denies about the stuff and i have a flat mate who's sharing flat with us i am not sure if its the helper or that girl i'm really going thru the taugh situation i am planning to ask the room mate to leave the place and thinking to do the same with helper... any advice
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Installing a camera is one of the best way,even if you marked the money with the UV ink pen, and checked whether which bank she is using she still can change the money through foreign exchange. she can go and change it anytime, anywhere.
Good luck hope you get the peace of mind.
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I think that this is a delicate situation. These people who are working as DHs are really in desperate situations. They come from tragically poor countries, leaving everything behind: family, friends, and whole lives in the hope of making a meager living. Usally that are supporting whole families back home. We on the other hand come from lives of relative wealth.
Both sides enter into the commercial relationship willingly but it is certainly asymmetrical with the employer having essentially all of the control. You can simply change helpers, if they lose their job they may well be destitute. So there is a moral responsibility to be fair to your employee.
I say all this because I think it is immoral to fire her without bending over backwards to do the right thing, even if it costs you something extra.
I had a similar situation in London. I noticed that regularly there seemed to be less money in my pocket in the morning that I thought there had been the night before. It was my routine that I would often get up, put on a robe and go to my study to work for an hour or so before getting dressed for work. During that hour the helpers would go into my bedroom to straighten. I had two helpers, and if someone was stealing it could have been either, though I was pretty sure it was happening and who it was doing it. Both were, otherwise, good employees.
I decided to get a simple wireless camera and hide it in my bedroom bookshelf, pointing at the spot where my pants lay. I connected it wirelessly to my laptop in the study. It did not work terribly well, frequently disconnecting. But well while I was fiddling with the connection at the laptop all of a sudden it began to work, and low and behold one of the helpers walked into the bedroom, looked around, reached into my pocket and took out £20. She then walked out. A minute later she returned and took another £20. I can only guess what she was thinking. In any event it worked- my good luck, her bad – just at that moment.
I confronted her, with confidence. I never showed her the tape but told her there was no doubt. At first she denied it but I told her I had evidence and eventually admitted it. I estimated that she had stolen £500 Over about 3 months. She agreed this was probably right. We agreed she would leave immediately and I asked her to repay the money. I also notified her family directly about what had happened. I know it was highly unlikely, but in the end over several months she did repay the £500.
I think this was fair; I did not fire an innocent person. My getting the money back was a bonus.
After you are sure it is her - and not your kids - whether you report her to the police to protect others is your call.
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Very kind of you scottbike10 that shows you are a good,understanding employer.giving her another chance after proving guilty is a way beyond anyone will do and for her to do such thing is a shame.
yes having camera installed is the best way to find the culprit specially when you have more people living with you..
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dhcc
16 yrs ago
Thanks everyone for your replies!
We have not yet decided what to do with her yet, only to lock our bedroom doors after she cleans and after we leave for work....Luckily for us, her contract ends soon. Obviously we're not going to renew it, but before she leaves, we want to make sure she'll learn that her actions have consequences. She can't just go around stealing and thinking she can get away with it! It's just not right, and like some people here have said, we wouldn't want her stealing at her next employer's either.
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Well, maybe your spouse is jealous of her? Maybe, As you & your spouse know where you've hidden the money / objects - It is not unheard of for employers to frame their employees, especially if the female spouse is jealous of the employee. Give me a break, if you don't trust your maid, fire her - but don't bother employing another one - you are the epitome of the worlds worst employer! Get your spouse to do the housework!
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Quite honestly, if you leave a wad of cash around, anyone is likely to steal it, but most likely it's not your maid, it's someone closer to you - someone who knows the maid is expendable, plenty more where she came from etcd - Hong Kong mentality!!!!
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Why waste time? Just talk to her honestly and fire her in a very nice way. People who do things in a nice way are people who have respect to themselves. Don't let this thing ruin every minute of your day. Well, think it through. Cos when you do the right thing, you will never regret why you did it. Anyway, there's a lot of helpers that can be trusted and you can find one if you deserve one. Goodluck.
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I fired my helper last week for the same reason. I found it only because I put exactly the right money for her wage the night before in my purse, and ready to give her next morning. I gave her 3500, seven 500 notes. But the next morning, while I was having my mornign tea,she asked me for money to go marketing , I tookthe purse out and got her wage first put on the table, and then I noticed there where only 5 notes there. I was lost for a while, she was standing by the table.It was only 10 mins after I got up, I was in the shower while she tidy up my bed room. So she did not really count how much in my purse, if she did, she wouldn't take it. I did not ask her , I thought there was a chance it was my hubby who took my money( he did accasionally for taxi), so I rung him straight away, well, he was busy and only got back to me the afternoon. He didn't. So i was pretty sure what happened.
We did not have camera, we had money around everywhere. We even did not have a drawer could be locked up. She had been a good helper otherwise, and was finishing her contract soon. So I thougth we may just install a lock and let her finish her contract. But the feeling changed, and we don't feel safe to have her around anymore. So we fired her, with another reason. We felt too ashamed to tell her we found out what she did.
We will install the camera as a friend suggested. Sad.
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my maid stole passport, new designer jeans and wallet, other smaller valuables that i don't use or care but they are gone.
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I think what booboolee meant was that he/she felt embarrassed for the maid and didn't want to bring it up. That can happens when the employer-employee relationship is good and all of a sudden, you find out that a previously trusted employee has done something so blatant to ruin that trust.
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Consider how long does she stays with you as your dh. If there is no more trust between you and your helper, better fire her with or without notice for your family safety.
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