Bad employer? Perspective please!!

Can anyone please offer me some perspective on a DH problem??


Our DH has been with us for the last 2.5 years and has been great. She looks after my husband and I who both work full time and our dog. She is a little eccentric at times but in general she is a fantastic cook, keeps the house immaculate and is great with the dog.


Problems started 7 weeks ago when she fractured her hand. To cut a long story short, this has ended up with her being in hospital for a total of 12 nights (not as bad as it sounds, a lot of the time there was waiting around for the operation and observation for swelling). During this time, we have hired a part time helper to take care of the cleaning and I have worked from home as much as possible. We have continued to pay her a full wage during this time out of respect of all her hard work for the last 2.5 years.


Following a check up yesterday, the doctor has signed her off work until the 2nd week of January. There has been a certain amount of frustration on both sides and partly due to this (think both of us could do with a break from each other) and partly thinking we were being kind, my husband and I offered to fly her home so she can recover there over Christmas. Her reaction was a little suprising and upsetting. She basically:


1. Told us we were bad employers as her contract doesn't mention looking after a dog and we still expected her to do this.


2. We were bad employers as we hadn't bought her winter clothes and this was part of our duty of care.


3. We only paid her HKD400 as a food allowance and this is illegal as it has now gone up to HKD740.


4. It was our duty of care to pay all her medical and hospital bills (we have always done so and without question, so no idea why this was thrown at us).


She then thrust a booklet of employers responsibilities at us and told us it was all in there and we should read it (none of the points were, though ironically there is a large chapter about sick pay, which I am quite tempted to highlight!).


I am pretty sure that points 1 and 2 are rubbish (can anyone confirm??). Point 3, I am not so sure on? I know the allowance has gone up but she is on an old contract, so assumes that it stays the same? It is slightly grating though as her wage is 4,500 a month and on top of her food allowance, we buy her rice, vegetables, milk, bread and toiletries. I always assumed we were being more than fair?


On another aside, my husband usually deals with her accoutns but admitted that he hasn't had time to look at them properly for the last 4 months and asked whether I could now take this job over. I went through them last night and the last 2 months are very irregular, with a lot of receipts missing amongst other things. I am going to sit down with her tonight and hopefully there will be an explanation.


Anyway, just trying to get some perspective on the situation and grateful for any points of view. To be honest, we have been thinking about replacing her because as good as she has been, for various reasons I would not have her look after a baby/child and that is the stage we are now approaching. Her being away is probably teh perfect opportunity to interview some DH's and see who is out there. However, firstly, I don't think you can fire someone who is on sick leave (though we would pay her until that is up and then I guess we would ahve to pay a months notice after that)?? Secondly, if we did go down that route, we would like to do the right thing by her and help her find another job. However, not sure how we go about that as would probably mean there would be a cross over and not sure that employing 2 DH's at the same time is legal??


Any advice welcome please!

In your helper's mind, you have not been doing your part of the bargain which in her words became "bad employer". She definitely have all these things in her heart when she spit them out. I would think that she's got a certain list of entitlements she deserves, and that you as employers did not meet. However, based on your side of the story I think that you've been more than fair.


What to do then depends on you. It's definitely not illegal to have two helpers at the same time and many employers have started the hiring process for a replacement while the contract of the current helper is still effective.

wfo - that is terrible - you sound like you have been more than fair to date. Did she think that you were meaning to send her home on unpaid leave? Can't imagine why going home to your family on a paid vacation over Christmas while you recover from illness is a bad thing that would lead to this tirade!


I'd be considering a new helper but am not sure of the legalities of terminating while on sick leave. Maybe a call to immigration could confirm. My gut feeling is that you'd need to pay her out of her sick leave plus the one month notice period.

Contact immigration and, scan them in a copy of the Drs note ie, off till 2nd week in January, tell them that your employee is making all kinds of allegations which are definately unfounded, as she is treated fairly, and the relationship between you has soured, and ask them if you pay her till the end of her sick leave plus months notice and air fare home can you fire her, if they agree then you can pack her on the next plane(to Fils I suspect). Once relationships have soured like this there is usually no improvement.

terminate her contract as soon as you can.... she is just trying to weasel out more money from you


make sure you have in writing and let her acknowledge it with a neutral witness around.


agree with starbucks - do ask immigration - she may throw in a complaint that you fired her because of her injury

By the way, is the 4,500 monthly salary in the contract? If not, maybe it's time to pay her what's on the contract.

You sound more than fair.

You do not need to buy winter clothes. You do not need to supply any food etc if you are paying a food allowance, and the increased food allowance only applies to new contracts signed after the increase.

Agree contact immigration, say that relations have broken down, give her notice, until then go by the book, and pay her sick pay not normal pay. Get everything in writing.

I agree with the last few posts. Since you provide food, and she isn't on a new contract, you don't need to pay the full food allowance. She really sounds ungrateful. I agree wtih the person who said once a relationship has soured, you can't fix it. The only thing I suggest is to call Immigration and ask if you can just pay her to leave your home ASAP? I wouldn't give 30 days' notice because when there are hard feelings, you can't predict what will happen.

I am kind of shocked at the tone of some of the replies here. Everyone seems quick to kick this lady to the curb. She's done a good job for you and you want to help her to get a new job?

Give her 30 days notice and a good reference letter and she will find a new employer. She was injured and had a lot of drama, but she is a good helper all the same for you. Just say in the letter you give her that she is very good at cleaning your home, taking care of your pet and is a great cook. Trust me, she will find a new employer!

If you feel strongly that she wouldn't be good with children you can say that, but would it be fair since you haven't actually seen her with children?

By law, you can't release her when she is injured, but even her hand will heal! Tell her you want her to have a full recovery, so you are allowing her to go home in 30 days for a rest followed by a new employer!

IF everything has happened as you have written then it is time to part ways. If you feel you cannot live and work with her, then it is your house and your life and all working/business relationships always come to an end.

Be sure you document/invoice everything you do, so there can be no recourse. Get proper advice from the immigration so you can be sure you have covered all areas legally.

People will always show their true colours one day and if you don't like it then it is your choice whether to continue or cease this business relationship. It is a business decision and not a personal relationship that you can repair. Treat it as business and as such, you do it legally and then let her go.

beancurd, re the OP's question No.2, are you sure the employers are supposed to provide winter clothes to helpers? is that what most helpers expect when they come to work in HK? if so, better to clarify with the employers upfront. as i understand it most employers don't think they are responsible for that; although they may hand over some old clothes to their helpers, they certainly are not doing that out of obligation.

"yes you are suppose to provide her some winter clothes"


No. There is NO obligation to provide clothing apart from a uniform if the employer requires such to be worn. Also, swim attire if the employer requires the helper to swim with the children and things like dishwashing and gardening gloves, etc...


In any case HK "winters" are very mild. It's not like one requires Everest expedition style outfitting.

i agree and disagree


agree with NO there is no obligation for providing winter clothes

disagree with BC regarding employer's responsibility for providing winter clothes


this is a work contract. people don't get winter clothes provision from their employers in the office scenario or elsewhere unless of course maybe if you are in a disneyland type of work where you are required to don specific uniforms or costumes.


is it also the responsibility to provide underwear and shoes?



it is the responsibility of the employee to dress himself /herself up accordingly. and the helper or any worker going to work abroad should also be aware before coming to any country on weather conditions and to bring the type of clothes to wear for the work one is going to do.


why should domestic helpers be treated any differently from any other worker/employee going to another country for employment (i.e. clothes wise)

"yes you are suppose to provide her some winter clothes"


Beancurd, would you kindly point out where in the labour website this is stated or where this is from?


We provided winter clothing for a former helper because she had none whatsoever and we assumed that since she was on the 2nd month of her 1st contract in hk, she couldn't afford it. An extended welcome gift. Other than that, we have not provided winter clothing for other helpers we have had or have at present because we never thought it our responsibility or obligation.

Beancurd just to clarify, winter clothing is NOT an obligation of the employer and helpers new or old should not EXPECT the employer to provide. If the helper being new in hongkong cannot afford winter clothing then she can ask her employer if they could give/lend old winter clothing until she is able to buy some for herself.


It is wrong to expect something which is not owed you and this will build resentment. Communication is the key.

I agree with you mike204 and Cara, when I was working my bosses never bought me clothes.

I would like to note that there is no "winter" in the real sense in HK. If you are wearing jeans, a t-shirt and a warm jumper plus maybe a wind breaker you'll be fine. No need for a parka or anything like that. Most helpers have more than enough enough clothes to survive HK "winter".

If the helper arrives Hong Kong during winter and she is wearing only the summer clothes from Phils, are you not going to provide her when she has no winter clothes? If she get sicked because she has no winter clothes, then how can she work>

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It is the responsibility of every prospective employee or worker to know the conditions of his workplace even before he or she starts work.


it is also their responsibility to bring the appropriate clothes to wear in their workplace.


the philippines is a warm country but it does not mean to say they DON'T sell warm / winter clothing. as far as i know, there are many markets where these type of clothing are available because some winter clothing brands are made in the philippines and the markets sell them as over runs


i would be hesitant to hire anyone who does not have the initiative nor the common sense to make the necessary preparations. just shows a glimpse of what is to expect from that person during their work contract.

This has turned into one of the stupidest posts i have read in a while.

Beancurd- giving out such wrong information is going against what this forum is all about. Misleading, based on opinion not fact and sending some poor employer into a tizz. ( who was originally trying to do the best anyway)


Ridiculous also to presume that some poor little Filipino lady cannot ask, look on the www. or watch any cable channel to see a worldwide weather forecast of the place she is coming to live and work.

"Come on all the big boss, it is not big money, it is so cheap so you must at least buy cheap winter clothes for your newly arrived helper."


Beancurd, again I must point out the fact that winter clothing is not an obligation nor the responsibility of the employer. The cost is irrelevant. Do not expect what isn't owed you.


Jackets, sweaters are even cheaper in the philippines.

Beancurd


There are many filipinos who are deployed to countries such as Canada, USA, Italy, Middle East etc for work. These countries have varying weather conditions that are different from weather conditions in the philippines.


These people are not provided with winter clothing even though they are employed as something else aside from domestic helpers.


They do not get winter clothing as part of their salary package. I am sure they had the common sense to bring the appropriate clothing.


If they have not adapted to their work environment, shouldn't one think that they would have returned back to the Philippines long long long time already ?


Yes common sense - I am sure anyone can do a basic research of what to expect in their work environment.

I can certainly understand how someone who has never been in a cold(er) climate has a hard time wrapping her head around the reality of cold weather. However as others have mentioned that's not an excuse for no bringing at least a couple of sweaters. I mean seriously. Before you travel to a new place don't you at least check the weather or ask someone who knows?


Sure, if we hired a new helper and she really didn't have more than ONE sweater, she could borrow some warm clothes but I would expect her to run out and buy some at the first opportunity.


And yes cara, I agree that 10C in HK is ridiculously "cold", especially indoors. The humidity and lack of insulation is a killer.

ps.


I have seen a lot of filipino tourists in town during the so called winter months of hong kong.


they are dressed with boots, scarves, mittens sometimes, thick jackets, beanies.... to those who are used to cold weather - this may be an over kill but this does show that filipino travellers are travellers are savvy enough to know what the weather conditions are. so don't assume your countrymen are clueless about weather conditions aside from their own country. it's no excuse not to have common sense to bring appropriate clothes.


also, i have been to manila - and yes i have seen people walking around in the malls in boots and scarves too!! so yes there are warm winter clothing available in the philippines.

Not before she was subjected to a public flogging and a day in the stocks surely !!!!


- get some perspective people, these domestics work for peanuts and they unfortunately feel they have to fight and claw for what they are entitled to. We all do the same when we are not happy with our hugh xpat packages etc so lets have a little compassion and understanding for them.


I dont have an amah but I do have a Filipino wife who does a great job of keeping my apartment clean !

get some perspective people, these domestics work for peanuts and they unfortunately feel they have to fight and claw for what they are entitled to. We all do the same when we are not happy with our hugh xpat packages etc so lets have a little compassion and understanding for them.


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not only domestics work for peanuts, there are many migrant workers not only working for peanuts but with the peanuts they call their income they also have to pay rent, utilities, food, airfare home, taxes etc.


yes we have to show a little compassion to those who are getting less than we do ... not only domestic helpers

This is amazing how DH think what they deserve to have. No wonder my ex helper has told all the helpers in the nebourhood how bad i have treated her.

I had one dog and lived with my boyfriend(by then). She has told people how crazy i was and how i gave her "too much' work to do. Oh yea, my new helper found out while she brought my dog down.

I remember i read it somwhere - if you are nice to them - they think they deserve it. If you are not nice to them, they would complain to everyone they know.

Think about it - what do you think they do while they sit together on Sunday? To tell each other how good their empolyers are?

My new maid is great. She told me that while she went down to take my dog for walks - all the DH would ask her "how's your boss? Is she old? Is she bad? Do you have alot of work? Yes i do! I don't want to go home becuase my bosses are there" My maid is complaining how come these DH can't just ask a normal question like "How are you?" instead of "How's your boss"


No we don't need to pay more, we don't need to buy them clothes, we don't need to do anything extra rather than what's written on the contract. Will they be happy about that? NO. Even you are paying more so what? They are still not happy. So why don't u use pay a minimum when they are not happy anywayz.