Posted by
notmeok
17 yrs ago
Do you think it's too much to expect a helper to get up at 6 and work til 10? I'd need the helper to work alone in a 3,000 sq ft apt and help with my small dog and 3 kids. I help a lot as I don't work. My current helper can't remember things and can't be counted on to do anything unless I ask her each day. She's getting old.
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cd
17 yrs ago
getting up and 6 is OK, but working till 10 every night is way too long, unless you give her a big chunk of time off in the middle of the day. If mornings and evenings are when you need her most, then maybe do 6-10, then 3-10 p.m. And during the day, she can go out, have a sleep etc.
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too long in my books - ours work 7 - 7 and have a couple of hours break in the middle of the day when kids sleep... could you think of having 2 helpers maybe? or would that not work for you?
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Agree with cd 6 till 10 is way way to many hours to work crikey it's 16 hours a day and only leaves her time to sleep assuming she doesn't bath or eat.
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I agree with ldsllvn, could you afford 2 helpers perhaps? That is alot of work to do plus 3 kids, even if you do help out a fair bit. Our helper works from about 6.30-6.45 to about 7.30pm. Also remember that once she has finished working for you, she may want to do her own thing like washing her own clothes and showering or writing letters and having to do that late at night might be too much. So she may not end up getting to bed and sleep until well after 11pm and then she is up at 6pm. Perhaps you could sit down with her and work out a roster to break up the day into slots so everyone can have a rest time.
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Just wondering how many hours off you allow for the day off? Does she ever get any true "down time" ie not cooking breakfast before she leaves, walking the dog after she gets home? Sometimes a DH just can't get enough rest even on their day off and they are simply exhausted!
3,000 sq feet is a big house, if you didn't have a DH could you keep that clean all by yourself?
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I will chime in and say it's way too long. However there are some things you can cut out of the routine. For example our helper only cleans the house once a week. Kitchen counter and stove plus sinks more often.
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gum
17 yrs ago
For those whose DH retire at 6/7 pm, do you not require her to prepare dinner?
My apartment is around 1000sqft, only 3 of us - me, hubby and baby. I don't work so I look after the baby. My helper does all the housework, cooking and grocery shopping. There are only a few things that I dictate that she perform at a certain time during the day e.g. b/fast at 8 am, lunch at 12:30...etc and I let her manage all her other tasks.
She starts work at 7am and still ends at 10pm (due to washing up after dinner). Of course she does break for lunch and dinner but I don't see her having any other breaks. If we do not do dinner at home, then she finishes at around 5pm. Dinner at home 4 times a week.
Is this too much as well? Unless I scrap dinner off her task list, I don't see how she can get off earlier!?
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In my opinion anything more than 12 hours a day on a regular basis is unfair and unrealistic to expect of one person. They can neither be happy or healthy working such long hours and there must be an amicable way round this so everyone is happy and gets the rest and free time they need and deseve.
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"For those whose DH retire at 6/7 pm, do you not require her to prepare dinner?"
No we don't. She makes (obviously early) dinner for the kids. We make our own. In some cases we will reheat what she made earlier.
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As I mentioned, our helper usually finishes around 7.30pm, but that is not every night, just an average. My child has her dinner at about 5.30pm and I'm one of the lucky wives I think as my husband will try to be home by 6.30-7pm each evening, so we are usually sitting down by 7.00pm at the latest for dinner. Our helper has everything ready to go and my husband usually sends me a message that he is on his way and dinner is started and ready by the time he is in the door. The only things that need to be cleaned are really only the dishes as everything is cleaned as our helper goes, she really is very good! I sometimes go into the kitchen later in evening and hear her ironing even though I say she should rest and her day is over. Other days if we just get our own dinner, our helper can even finish for the evening at 7pm is she so wishes. We also allow her start her day off on Saturday afternoon if she wishes, sometimes she will go, other nights she may stay or if we need her to babysit. It works very well in our house.
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So you are saying your helper gets 8 hours off PER DAY?! i.e. 10pm - 6am.
To even ask if this is okay seems quite ridiculous.
An adult is supposed to get 8 hours sleep a night (and probably more given her workload!). When do you expect her to have any downtime? Or is that not part of the equation because she is an FDH?
If you need her to work until 10pm, she should have a decent break during the day (like 11am - 2pm).
You should not expect anyone to work more than 12 hours a day for the minimum wage.....I think it comes under a concept called HUMAN RIGHTS.
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I agree with cara. Just think of how well your brain functions when you're sleep deprived.
I would suggest that if you 'really' need her to work 6am to 10pm then she could perhaps she could work those hours 3 days per week and then the other 3 days per week she would work 6 to 5pm or midday to 10pm.
Another option could be to give your helper a period of free time during the middle of the day (and by free time, I mean totally free, not just light duties) and hire a local person to be an 'extra pair of hands' for a few hours if you really need that.
Working any more than 12 hours a day, 6 days a week is just plain unfair. I'm sure you would not want one of your children (or your mother) to be subjected to such long hours.
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I just had another thought.
Children who grow up with domestic staff often (not always, please don't attack me for this statement) grow up not understanding how an adult needs to act in order to function. If your children are a little older then they can have some chores to do.
A 5 year old can be taught how to set the table, an 8 year old can help to sort out clean laundry, a 10 year old can take the dog for a walk around the block during daylight hours. ALL children from age 3, can tidy away their toys. It's a matter of parental expectation.
Part of raising little kids is to eventually turn them into self sufficient adults and if they grow up having everything done for them, they have been let down.
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"Children who grow up with domestic staff often (not always, please don't attack me for this statement) grow up not understanding how an adult needs to act in order to function. If your children are a little older then they can have some chores to do."
Absolutely. Our kids are still too small to be a real help, but #1 "washes dishes", helps with the laundry, cleans the balcony, etc together with the helper.
These are important skills in any case.
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maxis
17 yrs ago
It doesn't matter if the "help" te kids are doing does really do much of even actually makes more work, it is the point of it.
If they grow up and never see mum do much arounf te house and dad not even lift a finger to help her anyhow, and the helper do everything, then they grow into the many examples of self-gratifying, precious, over-entitled, spoilt, rude, selfish, arogent and lazy examples which can been seen often in HK.
I have observed generations of these type of people in HK, and it MAKES ME SICK!
Hell! If you can't even be botherd to walk your own dog (OR KIDS!) then really you have some serious attitude problems,
ANyhow, back to the thread.
The work load expected by Notmeok is completely unreasonable.
Driving another person for more than 12 hrs/day is hard.
Out of curiosity, Notmeok, did you grow up having a helper in your house, or is this a relatively new experience?
Don't take this the wronig way, but I ask as I would like to know when/where people get the idea that making someone work for extended periods but in their own house is acceptable. Is it from having house labour as a child, or does one acquire it some time after arrivnig in HK?
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"If they grow up and never see mum do much arounf te house and dad not even lift a finger to help her anyhow, and the helper do everything, then they grow into the many examples of self-gratifying, precious, over-entitled, spoilt, rude, selfish, arogent and lazy examples which can been seen often in HK."
Hehe. So true. For this and other reasons we do carry the dishes out to the kitchen and put them in the dishwasher, set the table, do the groceries, do some cleaning and washing. First of all we are fully capable of doing it ourselves and secondly the helper is busy as is.
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gum - to answer you question (ours two work 7.30 till 7) - we cook our own dinner - every once in a while the helper cooks it, but she would do it during the day and then we reheat (but that happens less than once a week). And we CERTAINLY can clean after ourselves - just putting dishes in dishwasher - does one really need the helper to stay till 10 pm waiting to load dishwasher? Also - even if there are pots etc - we wash it. If we feeling really lazy (again not often) - we will leave it till the helpers get up in the morning...
Agree with a few posts eariler - more that 12 hours working day is just NOT RIGHT!
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maxis
17 yrs ago
One reason some helpers have to finish so late is they have to wait until the family have decided they no longer want to sit at the table or any more tea.
They sit on one of those little fold-up stools in the kitchen waiting so they can gt on with the washing as soon as possible, (although some sit on the stool waiting until the fam,ily go to bed sop they can slide in under the table, or sleep in the hallway, but that is a different reason).
If you want the helper on beck and call, then they must finish late (or after you retire)
But if you are prepared to carry the dishes to the kitchen (as said above, paramount for correct human development of children either doing it or at least seeing Mum and Dad do it without complaining and moaning), and either rinse and stack, or load the washer if you have one, then she can rest/relax/walk the dog (lots of helpers actually like it, and are very fond of their charges, and also like to hook up with others walking their dogs - yeah some stop and chat but who doesnt. About 7 girls go together with about 12 dogs in our street, it looks like plenty of fun, and for people who like to get every last cent of value out of their helper can view it as working still!) then you don't need them. Everyone needs several hours after working to wind down, even of tired, so that when they arise the next day they don't feel they've just blinked and it all is on again. Even though the work may be light of a late evening, you gotta have a break. Also, if you let them break ealrier (as many above have said), they can get up earlier, fresher, cheery with the kids during the morning "happy hour" which can be a pretty dam stressful time of the day.
SUMMARY:
Be nice, decent, humane, respectful, employment law abiding, and remember your helper is often not here out of choice or greed, but for neesity and preservation of teir own family's (or exended family's) life and well being, to send teir kids to college/uni so perhaps they will have a better quality of life. Sure, don't be a soft touch or too generous - CONSISTENCY AND FAIRNESS are the key factors to gaining and maintaining the respect of any employee. Not always easy when the workplace is your home, but you want an employee in your home then act like a decent employer in the home.
I make sure I can do everone's job who works for me, or at least have a very good understanding of the scope - makes it easier to have realistic exectations, but also know when someone is trying it on. Try your hepler's job when she is on leave, but to the standard you expect and speed, for a few days, see how you go.
No good being a professional employer/supervisor in the office and some sort of sweat shop/factory supervisor when back home. I have been shocked, surprised and even later avoided people who I thought were nice, havng observed them wit their helper....they don't deserve one!
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notmeok,
You've had a lot of responses to your question. Have our opinions and input helped to shape your course of action?
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788
17 yrs ago
adele78, the OP got a lot of responses here. But she had explained her situation better in another thread called "helper" in which she got the advice of firing her helper from the same people who have told her she is making her helper work inhuman hours! Perhaps, she is speechless!!:)
http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/hong-kong-domestic-help/threads/114883/helper/
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788 - are you sure it is the same person? notmeok and notyou - maybe, maybe not...
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788
17 yrs ago
Scroll down, Idsllvn- you will find notmeok's post and not, notyou (it is notyou's thread though).... too confusing, I know.
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ahh, OK, read that...I actually wonder if notyou and notmeok are the same person just with 2 different user names? They seem very similar from household dynamics to writing style....
...It would still be interesting to hear from notmeok regarding this thread, even to hear that we have judged her too harshly.
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you know guys few more years and maybe just maybe it would decrease te no. of helpers here in hk as they wanted to transfer to canada, big bucks and works only 8 hours a day after the 8 hours you get the overtime pay, in canada you get 5 x breaks of 15minutes... here in hk youll get a minimum salary wakes up at 6:30 finish at 10pm went to take day off on sundays leave the house expected it would be tidy up before helpers leaves, and have to come back home at 9pm curfew time. some have no room of there own some even sleeps in the sala while their employerrs watching tv on the sala finish tv viewing at 12. if holidays are taken some dont pay overtime pay instead ask the helper to take it on other days. some employers even call there helper to come back home early for they still have things do as unexpected visitors arrived. some even called their helper to pick up this, do this od that before going home...
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cindy_jps, I doubt it. There are plenty of helpers from the Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia to take the place of anyone who leaves for Canada.
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work for 16 hours a day? what salary do you pay?
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davidebard6md raises a good point.
There might be helpers willing to work 13-15 hours a day, but the salary would have to be adjusted upwards a fair bit. After all, there are quite a few bank employees and lawyers who work those kinds of hours. But they are compensated monetarily either through explicit overtime or through comparatively high salaries and bonuses.
In any case it would have to be up to the helper, not forced on her.
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I'm actually pretty sure this is the kind of job my helper will be looking for when she is searching for a new DH position - long hours and more money. She doesn't care what the hours are, I think she only looks at the salary.
But as regards the 13-15 hours thing, I think there are 2 points to bear in mind:-
Firstly, that that time may include a few hours of 'easy work' such as when the helper takes the kids to the clubhouse playroom, all she does is sit there and talk with other helpers whilst keeping an eye on the child. Or waiting while the kid has a private tutorial, she just sits there with a magazine or chats on her mobile.
Secondly, most housewives put in those kind of hours, 7 days a week, no day off, no annual leave. Yes, in that case it's your own house and they're you're own kids, but you don't get paid, either. :)
I know I look after my own kids 7am - 8pm every day with no break / alone time most days of the week, or if the kids are not there I'm doing chores like sorting out bills. I don't get to eat my meals in peace like my helper does. I'm not saying that as a complaint, just to point out that plenty of people keep going for 13 or so hours without a break.
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addenum to all those kinds posts : if she's forgetful, ask her to write down reminders or give her a printed list of the things that she has to do and yeah 6 - 10 working hour is too long and your house is too big for a one helper. take it from a helper like me.... =hahahihi
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addenum to all those kind posts : if she's forgetful, ask her to write down reminders or give her a printed list of the things that she has to do and yeah 6 - 10 working hour is too long and your house is too big for one helper. take it from a helper like me.... =hahahihi
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