Posted by
Linama
16 yrs ago
Hi all,
I am new to Hk and to hire a helper. I found one -quite nice lady- and she will finish her 6 years contract on June 13.
She will probably work for us only 2-3 weeks before August -when we need to go back home for 3 weeks summer holiday.
I offered to pay her to go to see her family, but she kindly refused as she wants to take it in December.
She wants to stay in Hk in a boarding house. Is this legal?
Which other options do I have?
Thank you in advance,
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Hi Cara,
I was actually hopping that you and axptguy38 will reply- so thank you.
But how can I be sure that she will sleep at my place when I am away?
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"But how can I be sure that she will sleep at my place when I am away?"
You can't be sure. It's a matter of trust. And if you just hired her trust may not have had time to develop.
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Hi axptguy38,
thank you.
This is exactly my concern.
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Good point Cara.
Appreciate your reply.
Thank you.
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"it is illegal for her to stay at a boarding house for so long. i think that immigration would overlook a few days here or there, but an entire 3 weeks, unlikely. you could both be in trouble if found out."
Really? What is the basis for saying this? Are you saying the requirement that a helper must reside with the employer precludes the helper from staying in a guest house for 3 weeks while she (the helper) is on holiday? Are FDHs not allowed to holiday in HK?
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i remember reading somewhere that for the 7-day ANNUAL LEAVE, the helpers don't have to go anywhere (or can go anywhere they want) as long as they are not working, i.e., they can stay in HK. it's the end-of-contract VACATION LEAVE which has to be spent in their country of origin (not just outside HK -- they must go back to their home country).
so presumably for the ANNUAL LEAVE, they should be able to stay somewhere else in HK other than the employers' house?
better to clarify with the immigration
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I would be surprised if helpers are not allowed to holiday where they choose! It's just like when they take their rest days, it's their time off so they choose where to stay. The employer can't dictate where they go on their time off.
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Thank you for your replies.
I just called Immigration and I was told that if she is on leave (annual leave) then she can stay out in a boarding house for 3 weeks. I can choose to pay or not to pay these 3 weeks (but helper must be in agreement with it).
He mentioned very clear that if she is not on leave (meaning she is requested to work at my place) then she must sleep at my place.
Cheers,
M.
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If you decide that she can stay at the boarding house, I would suggest you put it in writing and have her countersign. That way it won't come back and bite you on the bum at a later date.
Always remember though, even though she may want holidays in December, just keep in mind that it needs to be convenient with your plans. If you are on leave, then she takes leave, she shouldn't be the one to dictate to you when she has leave.
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Linama, good to know that you called the immigration. I am also considering to let my helper staying in boarding house. The question is: who will be responsible if she takes part-time job and have accidents? In another words, should we be responsible for her during the time when she is taking leave in Hong Kong? I am wondering if our regular insurance will cover this period.
Another question which is related but maybe too far: If she has an extra martial affair with somebody here in HK (dadda made a good point) and got pregnant, could I fire her?
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Interesting points of view. If the helper gets pregnant during holidays, can I fire her? Change "the helper" with "I", and it will be totally different! What's the difference between ordinary workers in Hong Kong and fdhs?
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Well said punter.
"If the helper gets pregnant during holidays, can I fire her?"
Nope. Just like a normal worker in this regard.
"What's the difference between ordinary workers in Hong Kong and fdhs?"
Helpers have fewer rights and tougher visa restrictions. To name two things: They have to live in the employers' home. Their years in HK do not count towards residence.
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my thoughts re peanuts' questions:
Q1: "who will be responsible if she takes part-time job and have accidents? In another words, should we be responsible for her during the time when she is taking leave in Hong Kong?"
guess yes. this is one of the particularities of employing a FDH versus other employees. employers are responsible for a lot of things FDHs do or encounter in HK even during off-work time.
Q2: "If she has an extra martial affair with somebody here in HK (dadda made a good point) and got pregnant, could I fire her?"
guess no.
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I agree with that the policy does discriminate fdhs, but indeed employers have too much responsibilites too. I do not think it is fair. My boss does not need to be responsible for the work I have done outside of our office building.
Another point I want to raise is about the discrimination to mainlanders. Why they do not allow mainlanders come over to HK to work as demestic helpers?
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Also I do not think counting their time in HK toward permanent resident will do good to most of them. They would have to work much harder to maintain a countinuous employment and do not want to take any risk but just bear all rules the employers set. If you are familiar with the greencard application in the United States, you will have a better understanding.
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Canada and the UK for example, grant residency/citizenship to helpers after completing the required amount of time to qualify. Most remain as helpers even if they've gained residency/citizenship. Some go to school gain new skills and become professionals. Some go to school have their professional training from home country recognized and move on to become professional workers.
Once they become residents, they're not dependent on their employers for sponsorship anymore, just like normal workers including expats (like me). Expats have to bear the "hardship" of being dependent with the employer until they become residents.
Aren't these good reasons for anybody, including fdhs, to want to become permanent residents?
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not that i don't think FDHs in HK are being discriminated against in certain aspects. but the permanent residency issue is, IMHO, more complicated and better discussed separately from other issues such as minimum wage.
immigration is a highly political question in all countries/regions and each country pretty much only grants citizenship/permanent residency to those with qualities that is highly desired in that country. legislative bodies/government often have a lot of discretionary power in this area and often cannot be challenged on the basis of discrimination, etc. for example, in the US there have been judicial decisions holding that immigration may be an exception to normal equal protection principles on the basis that the power of Congress over the admission of aliens is absolute.
i believe HK is not the only place that attaches immigration restrictions to certain visa types (such as a FDH visa) while allowing other visa types to be on the immigratoin track. for example, in the US student visa holders are not allowed to demonstrate an immigration intent because their visa is granted strictly for the purpose of "temporary" (in the legal sense, not literally about the actual time spent) stay in the US for study. in contrary, a H1B work visa holder (who, to get a H1B visa in the first place, must possess highly desired qualities that are a scarcity in the US) is allowed to apply for a green card. all in all it's very discretionary and all according to the nation's interest. i personally know of someone who's been in the US on student visas for more than 10 years having finished three PhD programs but has not even been able to file a green card petition because he's not been able to find a job that can sponsor an H1B visa.
also, for those countries that allow foreign domestic workers to obtain permanent residency/citizenship, i'm wondering whether they also allow foreign domestic workers to come to work as easily as HK in the first place. again, it does not seem to be the case in the US. (http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071230185506AAzXQiE). these two standards are related i believe. those that have a low threshold about who can come in the first place may have a stronger argument about not granting citizenship/residency to all of them, for obvious reasons.
i'm not arguing whether HK is or is not right in their immigration policies re FDHs (or mainlanders, for that matter). this is honestly beyond my capability to judge. all i'm saying is that this question should probably be looked at with a bigger picture in mind.
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So I called the Immigration again today (so romantic!), and for those in the same situation as I please note: when the helper is in annual leave in HK or day off in HK, the employer is still responsible for what she is doing ( part-time jobs for example).
And no, you cannot fire the helper if she gets pregnant.
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Thanks Linama, this is very helpful.
re discrimination on fdhs, I agree with miaomiao. Nation interest is the key for the immigration policy at the first place and it is determined by many factors. European countries population aging is a challenge, so granting them permanent residents and bring along chain migration to fulfill the labor shortage is the best solution. HK is aging rapidly too, but only with a small space and cannot bear the inflow of chain migration after granting the helpers permanent resident status. Of course, I respect those who make their voice to the vulnerable group, but just want to remind that there are much more vulnerable groups than fdhs in HK society.
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the two calls to the immigration that Linama made were truly helpful to people with similar questions and clarified the misunderstanding in a lot of people.
also interesting to see the twisted effects of these rules re FDHs. when you ask whether your helper can take leave in HK and live in a boarding house for several weeks because that suits both of you, you may be told it's illegal (which has turned out to be incorrect) or warned against the risk of being held responsible for things she does or encounters. on the other hand, if you have a different scenario and ask the question from a different angle, e.g., when your helper wants to sleep out during her leave or days off but you are concerned about what she'll do and your reponsibility therefor, you may be criticised for not respecting your helper's rights as an adult and challeged with questions like "do your boss dictate where you sleep/what you do during your rest time?"
the irony lies in the fact that the HK government sets different rules for FDHs and their employers than those for your boss and you in this regard. you'd probably rather the rules to be the same for everybody so there's no debate like this from time to time.
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"Also I do not think counting their time in HK toward permanent resident will do good to most of them. They would have to work much harder to maintain a countinuous employment and do not want to take any risk but just bear all rules the employers set. If you are familiar with the greencard application in the United States, you will have a better understanding."
As a green card holder, I am far too familiar with those rules. ;) In any case saying that's it would be hard is not justification for denying even the possibility. Make it hard(er) if you want, but don't deny it completely.
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deny completely? one solution : helpers can marry locals!
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understand axptguy38's point. the reality, however, is that there is not much entitlement to talk about when it comes to immigration matters, in any country. the logic behind most, if not all, immigration policies in this world is not whether we think certain foreigners "deserve" to be granted entry (or right to work/residency/citizenship) -- strictly speaking nobody "deserves" to enter/work in/reside in another country as a matter of right, but rather whether admitting these people/granting them residency/citizenship suits the receiving country's interest. so whether a country wants to make immigration by certain people extremely hard or completely impossible, i'm afraid it's really up to that country.
re obtaining residency by marriage to locals -- here comes the area where mainlanders are being disadvantaged (together with nationals of Afghanistan, Albania, Cuba and Korea).
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miao miao, I am totally in agreement. I'm just saying that it would be "fair". Yeah, I know, pipe dream. For the record, I am totally for more open borders because quite frankly it makes economic sense to have fewer restrictions on the movement of labor.
"Harking back a few posts to the several references to "extra martial affairs", I thought they only happened in places like Myanmar, Fiji, North Korea and the like!!!"
There are always stories of helpers sleeping with men other than their husbands, sometimes including their employers. Of course, with over two hundred thousand helpers in HK, very few of whom have their husbands here, you're bound to see some of this.
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Talking about helpers sleeping with men while in HK, the reason is they want to have a better life.. same thing with young chinese woman sleeping/marrying old men reason they want to have a better life as well out of LOVE..
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For helpers, it should be more about need. They have no way to sleep with their husbands in hometown. That is why I believe the whole foreign demestic helpers system is inhuman.
I do not like the label of CHINESE women. Young women marrying up to old rich men or involving in extra martial affair are happening in any society. It is their CHOICE. Ethnicity labeling is a racial discrimination.
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Not mentioning sleeping around to relief the physicial need, it is more inhuman because they can not parent their children. They are motherless generation.
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This thread has gone far off topic . . . But I generally agree with what miaomaio said about the immigration point. Also I love his/her point about how you see people react so differently to the same issue when questions are asked from different perspective -- I've also noticed that from time to time on this forum and sometimes got the feeling that you'll always invoke criticism just by posting a question. . .
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Where I come from if you fire someone for being pregnant you would go to court and be found guilty of unfair dismissal and be made to pay the fired employee money. It's beacause it's morally wrong I believe to fire someone when they have done nothing wrong in their job. Imagine if YOU got pregnant and your employer fired you, would you think it was fair? I can't imagine many people answering Yes to that one. Also, how they got pregnant is nothing whatsoever to do with you the employer. You are not their moral judge and jury. Unless it interferes with their job, the employee has the freedom - just like you - to have a love life of their choosing in their free time. It's none of your business even who the hypothetical father is - unless its your husband of course!
I think all employers should allow a helper some basic human freedoms like time off away from your home (which could feel like a prison sometimes as it's not HER families home) You simply have to trust her to not get you in trouble. If you are not prepared to trust her, then you should not be employing her. How or why would Immigration find out if your helper does a bit of ironing on the side anyway. And would they even care? I am sure the HK Gov has more pressing problems than a bit of illegal ironing. Most helpers barely earn enough to feed their families and themselves, so let them earn a bit of cash if they want.
You should be aware that MANY families allow their official contracted FDH's to live out and do other jobs. And pay them the normal full time pay or more. Which really is almost slave labour at the legal minimum. The helper unless she is dumb will know this is a great deal for her and will do the official employers house jobs well and quickly and head off to secondary jobs elsewhere. This allows them to just earn enough to feed, cloth and educate their family back home and also a bit of money to spend on themselves. Pretty hard for the HK Gov to know about this and I see no evidence they go LOOKing for these arrangements. But it seems to me a very very good deal for both sides and allows the helper to earn a semi-decent wage.
We should not kid ourselves that the minimum FDH wage here is fair, so those who can pay more really really should. And if you really can't give them a bit more than min wage, then at least let them go and earn a bit extra elsewhere. Would any of you choose to leave your home, country, spouse and young children to work as a maid for someone unless you were desperate? Give them a break please. I believe what goes around comes around. Forget what HK paperwork says about minimum holiday too, that does not mean that is what you should give!! You are the employer and should give what YOU think is fair. I am struggling to think of reasons why only being allowed 7 consecutive days off a year could be fair for anyone who has all their friends and family in another country?
As for Green Valleys comments. Hilarious: "Wow, that one went straight through to the keeper... Martial or Marital, that is the question!" I really hope axptguy38 has a giggle when he goes back and re-reads the post that made a rather large difference to the intended/actual meaning. Just one letter out of place and you get death rather than sex.
Yours in full expectation of a heated but healthy debate to follow!
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FKKC
15 yrs ago
Oh, I see it now, here you are advising people to break 2 laws:
Living out without permit and doing illegal part-time.
Thank you very much! Dude-ette!
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Dude-ette,
You obviously have some strong opinions, and good for you! However you state: 'Most helpers barely earn enough to feed their families and themselves....'
I have extended family and also friends who are FDH here in HK and none of them are in the situation you describe.
Elsewhere on this forum I started the post 'BBC Article' which refers to the following link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8053219.stm
From this 'non-biased' article it would seem the minimum wage is indeed fair.
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"Most helpers barely earn enough to feed their families and themselves"
I agree with katana. This just isn't true. Most helpers, if they manage their money decently, can more than support their families. In fact many helpers support extended families and on top of that send their kids to private schools.
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Helper into her 3rd contract with us. She told me that after her 1st contract, she was able to build a house for her parents. Some of her siblings also live in the big house - place bigger than the one we have in HK. She shows us photos she took with her new digital camera. She is one of the lucky ones because she has no debt (I think) when coming to work for us as we hired her direct (introduced by her cousin who was working for our daughter then & still is). She is a very down-to-earth person and as axptguy puts it 'manage money decently'. I am glad I have a good & happy helper.
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beancurd,
You are right in that the FDH will struggle to make ends meet if they pay for their kids to attend university and at the same time support a family in terms of food, accommodation etc! I doubt if there are any countries in the world where parents who are employed in an unskilled job and from the lower socioeconomic classes would not struggle to pay college fees especially if one partner was not working – even most ‘professional’ middle-class parents with relatively high salaries struggle to pay college fees if they have more than one child. But paying for university, purchase of a house etc is a far cry from barely earning enough to feed their families and themselves….
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Glad to hear a lot of the FDH families can do OK on the average wage here. I guess I got the impression (maybe wrongly) that a lot of them were like my helper who has 5 kids and an extended family to support. She has to pay for 4 of the 5 kids to go to school/college, hence she has no money left for anything else. Her mother looks after the kids, but of course my helper has to support her mother also as a result. But she is good with money and has not got into debt as far as I know. I try and help a bit by giving her her wages early if she asks so she can pay school fees on time etc. Also as well as giving her a food allowance she eats mostly all that I eat and so can use the food allowance for some things for herself and also eats much healthier as a result and her health has improved. One of her friends said to me that my helper looks really sexy now since she started working for me which I thought was hilarious. When she first started working for me she would eat rice or noodles and not much else so she could send more money home. Hence my comment about barely earning enough to feed their families and themselves. Like everyone, I generalised based on my personal experience. Good that not everyone is in this position. I will pay for her to go home a couple of times a year to spend a few weeks with her family. Can't bear the thought of helpers not seeing their families from one year to the next. So very sad. Those who say they are choosing to do this are I think kidding themselves, they are here because it's the ONLY way to earn a semi-decent wage not because they want to be away from their family. I think everyone who can afford it should send helpers home for a few weeks min. every year. I think it's cruel not to frankly.
Yours in expectation of a healthy debate once again!
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Dude-ette,
Interesting points. However I believe if a person’s job, FDH or otherwise, does not pay enough to support their desired lifestyle (as opposed to keeping them above the poverty line which is another issue) then they should either change jobs or change their lifestyle if they cannot get a better paying job or do not want to accept the conditions that go with a higher salary.
An employee does not have to have 4 or 5 kids, it is down to choice. An employee does not have to send their kids to college: they could for instance ask the kids to work first and save enough money before going to college or take up an apprenticeship. If the employee does not want to do this fine but they should not then complain if they barely have enough to eat or expect the employer to raise their salary (to support her desired lifestyle).
Oh and when I was working in a certain Mid East country I found out the standard contract for most labor was a vacation only once every two years. Which is why my employer thought my leave every six months was more than adequate (and in turn is why I am no longer there despite the higher salary I had)!
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"I think everyone who can afford it should send helpers home for a few weeks min. every year. I think it's cruel not to frankly. "
Agreed. However it is worth noting that many helpers don't want to go home too often. When they go home, the extended family expects them (as the ones who make "lots of money") to pay for food, dinners, parties, etc etc... It can make for quite a drain on the wallet.
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cd
15 yrs ago
Its not just unskilled workers that struggle to put kids through university, we're 2 years into it with our daughter, and even for us its a huge strain financially.
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Don't get me wrong, my helper does not complain or expect me to raise her salary. In fact i had to drag her family circumstances out of her at first. She is pround and does not want handouts. I wanted to understand her and her family situation though, so I persevered without trying to invade her privacy. Now we know each other, she trusts me and tells me stuff she doesn't even need to tell me. Just to keep me in the loop and as she is open and honest. I do not think it is my place to judge why she had 5 kids, she may not have been as lucky as most of us in regards to having much of a choice. Who knows. But not fair to judge her on that if I don't know. It would be very rude to ask as its none of my business anyway. So she is where she is - and as any good mother would - she wants to send her kids to school to have a chance at a career. I would do the same in her position I am sure. So. It comes back to: do I choose to NOT send her home for a few weeks a year to see her kids and husband. Do I choose to keep her here so I can have domestic help on tap for 51 weeks of the year for my family? You would have to be very hard hearted indeed to not allow your loyal, hardworking employee a few weeks to try and hold their own family together and to at least allow their kids to know who both their parents ARE?
She has chosen to send her kids to school, at the cost to heself of not seeing them or raising them. What a horrible horrible choice for a mother to make. No WAY should anyone judge her on doing what she thinks is right for her family. It is very easy to absolve yourself of any responsibility to easily improve another persons lot and say she has made her bed she must lie in it. Isn't it more humane to just look at it from a different angle? What a wonderful wonderful thing it is that you or I can instead of judging her for her tough choices you can instead help to bring her family together for a few precious weeks at practically no cost to yourself.
If you can afford to emply a full time FDH then you can afford a helpers plane ticket home.
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By the way, her kids are not university age, it's the basic education for 4 of them that she is paying for. Paying for university education is hard in nearly all countries I agree! If you can;t afford to send your kids to university it doesn't matter. I didn't go - through choice - and have now retired at 40 after a great career thanks to a lot of work, a bit of talent and a bit of luck. But then I was born and brought up in a 'rich' country with so many opportunities available to me that others simply do not have.
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Dude-ette,
Good that you feel your FDH deserves a ticket home. There is of course nothing to stop the FDH buying her own ticket home should she wish to and her employer not do so….
This whole subject of remuneration and salary could go on forever! (Rather than hog the board this is my last posting on the subject!).
As I understand it the minimum wage is currently set high enough for a single FDH to ‘live’ and to save enough to buy a house in say 4 years of working. No doubt a married FDH with two kids would maybe need 5 years to buy the same house. And a married woman with 6 kids even longer. So at what level should the minimum be set? Setting the minimum based on HK living costs is not relevant given that nearly all of a FDH’s disposable salary is sent home (and the FDH does not need to spend any of her salary on housing, travel, food and medical expenses).
And what if FDH from one country are generally able to offer their services for a lower rate than FDH from another country (whilst still able to have a similar standard of living in HK and back home)? Should the government of the FDH able to offer the lower remuneration be allowed to offer this lower remuneration to the HK government for their FDH working in HK?
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FKKC
15 yrs ago
Dude-ette
You are not practicing what you are preaching!
I don't understand why you as her employer cannot give her a higher pay to show your appreciation/compassion or whatever you called it and then decide to write 'handouts' and 'pride' to describe her feelings as if she would be ashamed to receive the extra cash?
I pay my helper more than the minimum and once in awhile I give her presents, tips, compliments and it never cross my mind and that these are hand-outs and from her happy face she knows I appreciate her work and she is PROUD that she earns every penny of whatever extra I can afford to give her.
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Er, who says I don't give my helper extra cash/gifts?? Not sure how you can say I'm not practicing what I preach. You have no idea what I pay her or what I do. But I probably didnt explain about the handout/pride comment. Before she officially started with us, I offered to give her some money towards her boarding house fees while the paperwork was proccessed. She was not earning AND was having to pay for her accomodation. She refused, saying it was her responsibility. It was clear form early on that she does not want anything that is or appears to be a handout. I could treat her like a charity case and just pay for all her kids education, pay to support her extra family. All for no apparent reason than being nice. But she does not want or expect me to do that, hence the pride comment. I give her good bonuses though for doing her job well. For example last week we had 2 guests to stay and she helped a lot to make them welcome and tidy their room, wash their clothes, make drinks etc (I do all the cooking). So I gave her a decent bonus to say thanks for that. I also give her extra time off to see her friends etc as there are only 2 of us and I dont work, so her workload is low. She even felt OK to tell me she does some ironing on the side to earn some extra money and I said that as long as it does not affect her work for us I am ok with that. I don't view anything I give her as handouts, she earns every cent. I already give her a fair bit above the min. wage and generous food allowance and she earns that too. She says she likes working for us (joined us in March), and when we went away for a few weeks she said she missed me while I was away and was glad to have me back. We gave each other big hugs as we like and respect each other. Very sweet, and also makes me feel OK that I treat her right. I trust her with anything, including money and possesions. It's not all perfect. Nothing is. I'm not! She can't cook and occasionaly she can be a little lazy as it's not very exciting doing housework (she is a college graduate) so I sometimes give specific lists of jobs to be done by certain times/days to ensure she stays on top of things. Try and give her new/interesting jobs to improve her skillset too as she has had no exposure to 'Western' living. Just like any boss motivating an employee. This seems to work well for both of us. She is very careful with our posessions (more than I am) and always keeps the kitchen and apartment spotless. Overall we are very lucky to have her as part of our household.
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FKKC
15 yrs ago
Thanks for taking the time to explain - understood!
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