Posted by
hkkm
17 yrs ago
Yes, you are making too much of a big deal of it.
Unless you or members of your family are having sex with your helper (no, I thought not!) you aren't at any risk. You can't catch sexually transmitted diseases from a toilet seat or from sharing utensils - this is a myth.
Also, it's going to be very difficult for you to raise this issue with her directly without her knowing that you were snooping, which you had no right to do. I know, she's living in your house and looking after your family, but she is still entitled to a private life. How would you feel if you were having unprotected sex and she came to you concerned that she might catch something from the toilet seat?
If you are uncomfortable with her working for you, by all means let her go, but you should feel guilty for snooping into her personal life.
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While i think that there is little or no risk to tko's family and have reservations about the snooping/cleaning issue, i think that she raises an interesting point about an employer's responsibility to his/her helper. Should you do something if you know your helper is practising unsafe sex?
i don't know the answer but my helper told me a story on sunday that made me wonder what i would have wished i'd done if i had been that helper's employer.
I'm told that one of the helpers who worked in our complex was found dead in her boarding house on the weekend. The story on the street is that she was having a relationship with another helper, both helpers had spouses and children from those marriages in their home countries. She became pregnant and he apparently tried to abort the fetus by punching her repeatedly in the stomach.
i find it unspeakably sad that the poor woman, trying to do the best she could, died in pain, poverty and shame so far from home; that there are children somewhere who were separated from their mother and have now lost their breadwinner as well as their mother, that the couple felt that this was the best choice available to them.
Although unprotected sex presumably led to this tragedy, it is really about ignorance, isolation, shame and poverty. How would you feel if you were the employer?
I think i'd feel regret that i didn't (or couldn't) use my advantages - money, education, higher social position - to help a desperate member of my household. On the other hand, I also see the need to respect the helper's private life and can't imagine how I'd discuss her sex life with her.
What would you do if you found out your helper was having unprotected sex? Would you just stay out of and consider it her business or would you feel a responsibility to protect her?
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To talk to your helper like a friend and offer advise for her own good is very different to reading her private letters and worrying that she may pass on a disease to yourself or family.
If you genuinely found out by accident hen there is no harm in trying to help but if the person doesn’t want your help or advise then you have to accept that. I would imagine it being hard to explain how you accidentally found a load of stuff under your helpers bed though, in honesty I have to wonder what the poster was doing in her helpers room at all when it is her only place for privacy and to keep her things.
As others have said only you can decide if your comfortable or not with the situation and I’m sure you have already formed an opinion on this so you need to act accordingly.
I do have to ask though how many people do you potentially meet every day who could of also had unprotected sex and how many hotel, restaurant and public loo’s you may have used after such people.
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hkkm
17 yrs ago
You said that you found messages under her mattress and had your friend translate them for you - sounds like snooping to me! Why were you (and your son) cleaning in her room? How would you feel if she 'accidentally' found some personal letters of yours and had them translated so she could read them?
And as Moppet says - if you are so concerned about someone's active STD lesions touching a toilet seat that you may use, you must not go out much...
But of course, as I said originally, if you don't feel comfortable with her, you should act accordingly.
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I think it's immaterial how she found out. She's asking for advice on how to deal with the problem.
I'm sorry but given how reckless she is with her life, personally, I would end the contract I have entered with this person. This decision is of course guided by my own personal beliefs and needs.
You can't control all your living environments as far as exposure to diseases/potential diseases. But your home is your sanctuary. If you believe that your home is less safe because of this person's recklessness then, take the necessary steps to take charge of it.
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pardon me spockey but i think this helper's personal affairs (non-job related), should not be a cause for the termination of her contract. employers who act this way should not employ regular women or men domestic helpers. you should employ nuns. treat toher people as you would like yourself be treated. is it worth keeping someone in employment or let this person go? whether the discovery is accidental or not, assess how valuable she is as an employee. if its worth keeping her, do positive steps to remedy the situation. talk to her about safe sex sex but act as if you do not know. in this way, you have a chance to change her ways.
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There is something not quite right about all this! The op says she wouldn't have unprotected sex, but says she has kids! Hmmm, Virgin Mary all over again!
This is nothing but snooping. Found birth control pills under the mattress while cleaning? Hmm. Isn't the maid employed to do that..... and cleaning under a mattress? So she found birth control pills but I'll get to that in a minute.
Now checking messages on the maids phone, her personal property, is contemptible. That is nothing but blatant snooping and abuse of privacy.And then to show those messages to someone else? How low is that? If I had an employer do that to me they would be laying on the ground and carried out on a stretcher with a neck brace.
Now back to the pills.
1. You have no idea whether she is using them as contraception or for medical reasons. Oh yes, birth control pills are used for other means as well.
2. You have no idea whether she has a boyfriend or not. You says messages from men. But what does that mean? I get lots of messages from different women but I am certainly not having sex with them! Most are colleagues and friends and, yes, have sometimes been flirtatious but mean nothing. And I would take what another DH says with a pinch of salt, exaggeration I have seen many times. But you may now have ruined whatever social life your DH has with others in the area because of your snooping.
3. If she does have a boyfriend, and to be honest it is none of your business what she does when she is not working, then at least she is taking care not to get pregnant.
Sex is never safe even when married. Everyone knows that, previous posts here about people catching whatever from their husband / wife, etc. If it was easy to catch STD's from toilet seats, etc then there'd be an epidemic. You probably meet several people a day carrying something, you work with them, eat with them, drink with them, have them in your house. Do you know? Of course not.
So stop the snooping and invasion of privacy. Stop spreading rumours in the local DH community. If you are that concerned speak to your maid, but be prepared it may well come out that you showed her phone messages to another DH. Then you may well face a bit of payback. And some may well say it would be deserved.
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Like I said, it's my personal opinion and what I would do. You may not have the same opinion and do as I would, and you are entitled to it.
All I'm saying is what I would do in TKO's position.
Perhaps I do not run in liberal circles but my baby's health and safety is paramount.
So, it's in my conservative own way, that is how I would act. Perhaps governments everywhere which propagate and promote healthy and responsible sex lives should be criticized too. In this day and age, no one can afford to look the other way when it publicly frowned upon personal choice or not. It's just down right irresponsible.
If lablab, you are happy to hire such a helper. By all means, it's your prerogative.
FYI... this is how herpes can spread:
Direct skin-to-skin contact can spread herpes. This includes touching, kissing, and sexual contact (vaginal, anal, and oral). (Taken from http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/herpes.html)
and gonorrhea
Gonorrhea is spread through contact with the penis, vagina, mouth, or anus. (http://www.pamf.org/teen/sex/std/std/gonorrhea.html)
This is just an example of how two STD can spread. There's a whole list of STIs and how they can spread. http://www.pamf.org/teen/sex/std/std/
So if my DH is having unprotected sex and has potentially been exposed to it and contracted it, I would NOT be comfortable living with such a person. I know our past DH kisses our son. So, I'm sorry... it's absolutely TABOO for our family to live or hire such a person. It may be her business but if her business can potentially endanger my family, then I'm sorry, but that person has just got to go.
A DH is not a regular company employee. You live with this person. So let's not pretend that it's ok/easy to decide to live with a stranger you've hired who isn't careful. It's not even easy if it's your own family member!
But really, at the end of the day, to each his own. You run your own household, and only you can decide what is suitable for your household.
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tko, here's a question for you. How do you know she is having unprotected sex??? Are you there with her?? She takes birth control pills, so not to get pregnant, but she very well may be using condoms too.
My helper has a new boyfriend of 4 months and has unprotected sex with him (she talks to me about things), I'm not overly concerned about it.
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evildeeds,
i agree with what you are saying.
this is my first post,i cant believe there are discusions on peoples personal life.
there are a few contributers who seem to live in a different planet .just because you earn over 4 k,does not entitle anybody to judge there life....god forbid ,there sex life.sometimes i am ashamed to be in the expat family.i look forward with trepidation,the replies from the ignorant.
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Basic hygiene principles cover a person's guide to use of public facilities. I'm sorry for not having been raised in a village. And am aware of and been educated in the ways of dealing with such public facilities. In general though, I should apologise for my privileged lifestyle. Not having to put up with places where the use of public facilities would be questioned. I should be shot for such a lifestyle. But you have obviously missed the point I was trying to make... living with someone who chooses to be reckless is very different from the on and off use of public facilities.
I should also apologise on behalf for the lot of us who are apparently living a perfect life with no hang ups... didn't think growing up having promiscuous sex and living with it was part and parcel of a normal family life and choosing to protect our families from what we deem as harmful is too not part of a functional normal life.
As I said.. if you choose to live with it, so be it. It's your lifestyle choice. I was merely suggesting to TKO a solution. I did not condone nor comment on her methodology to uncovering this problem. I merely saw her problem and saw that she needed a solution.
Good Luck jwm... once again, I should apologise for my privileged lifestyle and upbringing. If your lifestyle pertains that you can and should live with someone like that then so be it. To each his/her own.
Good Luck TKO.
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OMG... who appointed Spockey the moral police. If she had caught her DH snooping in her things, she would have been out on her a**ss, but I guess it is ok to be hipocritical, assume the worst and terminate a hard working employee.
Agree with JWM... if you are SO concerned, don't have a DH. But like jwm said, not likely.
I just cannot get over some of the posters here thinking they know best and treat these ladies like crap.
Spockey... your websites are interesting, but really, ifs the helper going to wipe her vagina or anus on the family? Get a grip, you clearly live a sheltered life, must live a very protected life, how do you survive.
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TKO,
"In the Phillippines, most people don't believe in protection like condoms or birth control. Sex Education isn't even taught in schools! So when women have unprotected sex, they take Morning-After pills, which can be found in any Phillippino drug store. It's a contradiction, but this is what they believe."
Where did you get this information? Do you know many Filipinos who subscribe to this way of thinking other than, maybe, your best friend?
Aren't morning-after pills a form of birth control?
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I'd be interested to know if going through your employees private things in her room then dismissing her for having un protected sex was legal. I think if the helper chose to she would have a very good case for unfair dismissal. Personally I think she’s better off working for someone who doesn’t snoop though her private things so it could be a blessing in disguise.
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I know what I will do now. I am going to get all my workers into the office, Expats and local. Then I will grill them all about their sex lives. If I find out that any single one of them are having unprotected sex, including with partners, spouses, etc I will fire them on the spots. Sod their personal lives.
I also do not employ so many people for them to get pregnant either, so I am going to force all the women under me to have birth control implants, if of course they refuse the steralisation route.
So I could well be sacking one of your husbands or wives. Does that sound fair?
Of course not, but I have to be in my office sometimes 16 or so hours a day. So I have more contact with my employees than most people have with their DH. My wife sometimes pops by with out daughter and everyone makes a fuss of her. But one of or more of these people could have HIV, Herpes, Syphillis, etc. Do I know? Is it any of my business? Do I make decisions on how my employees should lead their lives?
I don't want to hear any of this "well it's different for a DH because they are in your house" BS. I'm sick of hearing it. They are employees so you treat them as employees. If you want to be their moral guardians tell them so at the beginning or go and save a prostitute or something.
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Wow, how amazing some people can be in this world!!! To fire their employee because of her sex life. My helper has a few different bf's this year, but I'm not going to fire her because of this. Your poor helper, beng treated like this. If you are soo concerned, why don't you just get a current medical update and have STD's checked, if it concerns you that much.
I still can't beleive it !
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jwm, do you really expect tko to respond to these posts, most of which simply say, "you are a bad person who shouldn't have a helper". Hardly useful advice. What could she say in return, "no, i'm not"?
Most of the vitriol seems to have been directed at the way she found the contraceptives and the perceived invasion of her helper's privacy. tko didn't seek advice on this point - wouldn't it have been more helpful to address the matter on which she is seeking advice than to bombard her with moral condemnation on a matter we really know nothing about.
She doesn't say that the helper has her own room - maybe she shares whith the child? Why not give her the benefit of the doubt and address the issue on which she has sought advice?
If you wanted to address the privacy point in a useful way, you could point out that respecting a helper's privacy is as important for the employer as much as the helper as she wouldn't then have the need to deal with issues such as these. "Ignorance is bliss", "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" etc etc.
tko asks, "am i make too much of a big deal here". This makes me think that English is most likely not tko's first language. If she comes from an Asian background it may well be that she has a more conservative attitude to sex than those of us coming from more liberal western countries. Here's a novel idea - we could educate her rather than beat her over the head with our collective outrage!
The answer to her question is simple - yes she is making too big a deal about it. There is little to no risk to tko's family and basic hygiene such as hand washing should alleviate her concerns. Why attack her? How does this "advice" help her (or her helper)?
I also think that the issue tko raises is a difficult one, although not for the reasons she gives. As i detailed in my previous post, there may well be adverse consquences for a helper who has unprotected sex. Does an employer have a responsibility to the helper once he/she has this knowledge and how does the employer deal with it while still respecting the employee's privacy?
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There are some pretty incredible comments in this thread.
Spockey - what are you on about apologizing for not coming from a village? Are you suggesting that only villagers have unprotected sex?
So be it - of course you don't hire a helper in the hope she will get pregnant but guess what: helpers have human rights too including the right to bear children. If your helper were to fall pregnant in your employ it would be ILLEGAL to fire her - just as it would be illegal for your boss to fire you if you got pregnant.
Just as it is ILLEGAL for tko to fire her helper becuase she suspects her of having unprotected sex in her free time.]
But as others have pointed out no doubt tko will make up some other reason for the termination.
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Oh and TKO - I just spotted your thread in the legal section asking for advice on whether your friend will be pulled up on his theft of a credit card if he returns to the US.
I don't think much of your moral high ground - or do your standards only apply to your employees?
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come on guys leave TKO alone - here is another thread.... give her some slack..
http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/relationships/threads/108524.asp
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jwm, do you feel that i was discourteous to you? If so, i apologise.
My point was that the majority of the comments on this post have been outraged, accusatory and not particularly helpful.
I think that people take advice better if it is given with respect and understanding. Conversely, the natural response to abusive, vitriolic advice is to dismiss it wholesale.
So, if we were really concerned for the welfare of the Dh in this case, we'd be telling tko that she is over-reacting - not that she's a bad person.. .but maybe that's not the point of the exercise for some posters.
The consensus also seems to be that tko wants to terminate her helper for having unprotected sex. I don't see that although I agree that she leaves open the possibility of termination.
However, she first asks if she's over-reacting (making a big deal of it), asks what she should do, says that she wants to make it clear "that she needs to protect herself as she is living with us and she is married and has 2 children!!!" and then says, "And if I let her go..."
It seems to me that she sees termination as her last option - she doesn't appear to embracing it as the only possible solution to her problem.
As to the privacy issue, I agree a helper's privacy needs to be respected, of course. But to simply shut out the information may, in some cases, be a disservice to your helper - she may be in a situation she cannot control and need your help.
Apart from the situation I described earlier (where the helper died from internal bleeding caused by her boyfriend punching her in the stomach to try and abort the baby) I also have a friend who is in the process of adopting a baby who was conceived by a married helper and her HK boyfriend. My friend says the mother's life is in ruins and she is very distressed. Adoption of babies of FDH in HK is reasonably common.
I'm not judging the morality of helpers - it is no doubt very hard living away from your family for years on end - my point is that unsafe sex can have serious consequences on the lives of FDHs whose relative poverty and lack of status in Hk combined with possible feelings of shame and the burden of supporting their families can lead to unwise choices. They may need your help.
As i said, i don't know the answer, i don't think it is simple though...
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JWM, some of us don't have time to sit around all day and read and reply to opinions posted on the internet. I've said my two cents worth to TKO. I understand the nature of a forum, you can't shove someone's opinion down another person's throat, even if you disagree or are outraged by some of the opinions. Perhaps you don't?
The outraged opinions against the likes of us who would terminate our DH over this matter, I hope come from mothers with kid(s). Otherwise, please save your breath. I've asked around mothers with kids from my community (an international expat community made up of Asians and non-Asians) and most if not all would take the necessary steps to terminate the DH. If you happen to be a mum and would choose NOT to terminate the helper, it IS your prerogative as is ours who would choose to terminate. We choose to protect our families in different ways.
I believe TKO has decided on her own what's right and wrong based on her own beliefs and opinions. It is NOT a simple matter for sure. Absolutely ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
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To fire a helper simply because she is having unprotected sex is outrageous. How sure are you that she has STD? She may be married and is having an affair, but if that will be the bases for someone to lose her job, then I wonder how many would be un-employed by now? Just because she is getting a lot of messages from men does not mean she sleeps with them all, even if she does that is her business. You sounded so moralistic here but on your second post you said " would never be caught dead having unprotected sex, especially because I have a family " meaning you are not against having extra marital sex as long as it's safe sex?
Anyway, she could take you to court for unfair dismissal, that is, if you will be honest / gutsy enough to tell the truth why you are firing her. But to be blunt, I don't think you can, otherwise you would have sat her down and told her your worries instead of stoop low as have someone translate her PERSONAL text messages. I could almost imagine you and your friend with your loose/wagging tongues assassinating her character. If your friend wants to be helpful, she should have talked to her instead of "gossiped" around to gather info to use against your helper. That is what a sensible person would have done, unless your best friend have a relative/friend to recommend to work for you once you fired your helper.
Again, you are not sure if she got STD or not. There is only one way to find out.... it is within your right as an employer to require a medical check-up now and then so go and ask her to have a health package check-up that will cover AIDS/HIV/STD tests.
Until then, yes.. you are being too much. And by the way, there is no such person as Philippino, its Filipino.
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TKO who the hell told you that sex education were not taught in school in the Philippines??!!!??? What an ignorance. I remembered all about the birds and the bees we learned from school, not to mention the so called common-sense. You should be happy that she is taking precaution against getting pregnant.
Messages from men, even flirtatious ones does not always equates to having sex and could be nothing more than that--harmless flirtations that sometimes means one is comfy enough with one's company to flirt knowing that it will not be taken more than what it is.
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i tend to agree with mborderform. this is an advice forum, as it is clearly stated. it is not an attack forum. people come here for advice, not to be bombarded with abuse. i am sure that tko have her difficulties and dilemma and we are not in her shoes to really judge her. who are we to judge anyway. let him who have no sin throw the first stone. i know i will be attacked for saying this. i dont care.
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again it reallymakes me laugh to read peoples comments about filipinos.. people i suggest you try and sit in one of our highschools back in the philippines.. when i was still in HS we get sex ed every quarter.. dealing with issues involving sex. from condoms and other forms of brith control and bodily functions and changes when a girl gets preganant.. its a seperate class for boys and girls.
for the poster who said she didnt grow in a village therefore she got morals.. pullleeeezzz... if you got your so called morals you wont judge/fire your DH for having sex, protected or otherwise... for the simple reason stated in the other posts that it is none of your busisness..
FYI to people: not everyone from the philippines came from a remote village in the mountains, hunts and kills wild animals for food and ergo are totally ignorant to civilized society. yes majority have come from villages but again they are university educated. but some come from cities too, but that is irrelevenant.
my point is again people put us filipinos in one lump for the mistake of one.
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