Posted by
afoley
14 yrs ago
My family recently moved to Hong Kong and will be moving to Stanley in a few weeks. Most of the domestic helper resources are for live-in help. What is the best way to find full-time, live-out domestic help to do house chores, small amount of childcare (3yr old and infant) and pet care (strong dog who loves people but not other animals).
Thanks for any help you can offer!
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You can only get full time live out helpers if you employ Hk permanent residential permit holders.
http://www.erb.org/smartliving/en/master_questionnaire.php A link to let you find out about local domestic hire.
It is illegal with very big fines, to employ anybody on a Foreign Domestic helpers permit as live out.
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It might be tough. As Susie1 says, the reason that live-out is comparatively rare is that HK regulations make a foreign domestic helper both easier and a rather good deal money-wise. Families without a helper typically have an older family member doing chores.
Unless you are talking a couple of hours a day max (you do mention "full time") a live-out is almost always a bad deal. A live-in will work six days a week all day for 4350/month minimum including food allowance. Even if you manage to pay a live-out 50/hour (and from what I understand that's quite low) you're talking 10800 for 54 hours a week. Many (most?) FDH work more hours than that.
It might also be hard to get a live-out to come all the way to Stanley but I am not sure.
All that being said, you should look at the resource mentioned. I do recommend though, that you at least consider live-in. It is for better or for worse the typical HK arrangement.
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Thank you both for your replies. I guess I just feel bad housing someone in such small living quarters. In the US, it would be considered almost inhumane to give such small living quarters as I've seen in the apartments in HK. We also like our privacy and having someone else walking around the house is just weird for us. Perhaps part-time help would fit best for our family? Is it possible to get part-time help for something like 4 hours per day, Monday-Friday, at a reasonable rate? I honestly don't know what I would do with live-in help all day for 6 days a week.
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Nuri
14 yrs ago
Local part-timers will hardly speak good English. A part-time Phillippine domestic helper will charge HK$50-80 per hour (you both can agree on the fee). However, it means that she'll be working for you part-time, which is officially not allowed by the Immigration department. Some of my friends though do hire such part-time helpers on regular basis, and no one ever got caught.
After having tried hiring part-time helpers in the past, I came to a conclusion that a full-time helper is the best option here in Hong Kong. If you can provide her even with a tiny room of her own, she'll be very happy to work for you because in my local friends' apartments the helpers sleep in the living room on a mattress or share a room with 2-3 other people (e.g., 2 kids and a grandma). Again, it takes time to adjust to some specifics of HK life. A vast number of families live in tiny apartments, which is also kind of unhealthy, but that's what it's like. My local friend told me that my apartment of 1,000 sf is large!!! 3 adults+2 kids...
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Hi afoley,
Yes you can also get part-time local helpers from the gov. website I sent you already, there are a few FDH's who will 'tout' for part-time work but this is also highly illegal, and if anything goes wrong, you will not have a leg to stand on-so to speak. Somebody we knew had a part-time FDH who stole a few things from his property, couldn't even report it to the police-because he would have got into big trouble for hiring her in the first place.
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afoley, I can certainly understand how you feel about the space. However you should think about the fact that an FDH probably has more space here than she had at home. Many have never had their own room before they became helpers. As Nuri rightly noted, your typical HKer lives in a very small space as well. The helper will also be making more money than many university graduates in her home country.
A lot goes into how you treat your helper. If you treat her with respect, she won't mind the small quarters. If you treat her badly, no quarters are big enough to compensate.
As for "walking around the house", that is entirely up to you. If you feel that certain hours are "private", you can ask her to stay in her room and the kitchen during those hours. She is an employee, not a visitor.
There is undeniably a certain loss of privacy, but a helper is not a house-guest. If you don't feel like socializing, you don't have to. It is very different from a friend or relative visiting. We also like our privacy but we don't feel as if our helper is really a problem in that regard. She is there doing her job, not observing us like monkeys in a cage. ;)
It is a big transition for a westerner, but if you ask most people they will say that they went from doubtful to "can't live without her" pretty quickly. The weirdness tends to go away rather quickly. Again, she is an employee, not a house guest, and as such you set the parameters.
"I honestly don't know what I would do with live-in help all day for 6 days a week."
She'll be happy with the downtime. ;) Lots of helpers have a pretty chilled out period in the middle of the day when the kids are off to school and such. Also your place will be clean like it never has been. I try to tell our helper that she really doesn't need to clean every day but she pointedly ignores me.
I have lots of experience advising on this subject, both as a friend and professionally. I would be happy to talk more by phone or email if you like. PM me in that case.
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Ed
14 yrs ago
You can find part time help here http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/helpers/
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afoley, it may feel like several people here are pushing for you to get a full time, but that is primarily because said people (including me) have had positive experiences. Speaking for myself, most of my friends and acquaintances have been positive as well.
BTW cara I once made a list of all the things helpers can do. It became rather longer than I had expected. ;)
Picks out clothes for children
Helps with homework
Advises on child fostering
Gardens
Waters plants
Does spring cleaning
Runs errands
Packs suitcases
Disciplines children
Unclogs drains
Plans meals
Writes grocery list
Puts children to bed
Showers/bathes children
Brushes children’s teeth
Deals with contractors
Cooks
Cleans
Takes care of children
Does laundry
Shops for groceries
Performs minor repairs
Pumps bicycle tires
Consoles children
Irons
Walks dog
Grooms dog
Washes the car
Makes lunches for kids
Makes breakfast and lunch for dad/mom
Cooks for parties
Gives first aid to children
Takes children to playdates
Takes children to playground
Polishes shoes
Receives deliveries
Mends clothes
Fixes daughters’ hair
Fixes wife’s hair
Changes sheets
Picks up dry cleaning
Assists elderly or disabled family members
Handles petty cash
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If you do decide to get a FT helper and are concerned about space, there are some good furniture shops such as Takad which make furniture with small spaces in mind. Our helper room is also small so we got a bed with big wardrobe, desk and drawers underneath so she has good storage, and then got her a flatscreen/DVD combo attached to the wall so that it all fits in.
If you go to Takad go to the one in Wanchai as there is a girl there (callled Rachelle I think) who speaks English. Although they have limited showroom space, they have a website with all the dimensions and make the furniture to order.
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Thank you everyone for all of your advice. You have all been very helpful. It's a lot to think about and I will discuss it with my husband. If we do decide to go with full time help, what is the most reliable resource to use? How did you find your helpers?
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If you go for live in help, try to go for one who comes highly recommended by employers who are maybe leaving HK, employers you hopefully can speak to before they go. The best way to find really good helpers is by 'word of mouth' by other expats, or you could look at the helpers on this forum.
Don't rush into anything you are not sure of, waiting for the right helper for you and your family will be worth while.
Interveiw lots of prospective helpers, make a list of questions you want to ask them, include some 'scenario' type questions if you have children, to make sure they could look after your children properly, and you would be happy entrusting your children to them. They would need to be able to prepare baby feeds and toddler foods hygienically, Know how to keep baby and toddler safe, know what to do in an emergency if you had just nipped out, and keep toddlers occupied by reading stories or talking to them.
With regards to your dog, you would be able to tell by his reactions, if the person you are interveiwing really likes animals, a dog will be wary of people who don't really like them.
Processing of an FDH takes 4-6 weeks. a good helper will give you as much privacy as you want, will be there when you need her and 'melt into the background ' when you want privacy. If you don't know that much about HK Imm rules, go to their website, there is a side bar, with FDH Qand A's, and have a read, it may help you in your quest.
Like LOJITT said above you can fit a helper space into a very small room, with a TV fixed onto the wall, and the correct furniture.
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"If we do decide to go with full time help, what is the most reliable resource to use? How did you find your helpers?"
As Susie1 says, recommendations. Ask EVERYONE you know and meet. There's always someone who knows someone who.
Having said that, we got ours through interviewing a bunch at an agency and she is superlative. AsiaXpat, for example, has a large pool of candidates. We went with the "lightning" interview style, going to an agency and doing 5 minutes each until they ran out of people in the room. Of course if it was someone good you want to take a bit longer, and perhaps schedule a second interview. Note though that the really good ones get snatched up fast so dawdling is not recommended.
There's a book called "Hiring and Managing Domestic Help" that you should buy.
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I noticed that you mentioned childcare. HK is a pretty social place and many people seem to end up "out" in the evenings and very often, as is the nature of HK, at short notice. Having a live-in gives you immediate babysitting.
Otherwise the options to find babysitters are very slim. Using someone else's FDH is officially a no-no, finding a local (HK resident) that will do it is upwards of HKD80 per hour. And otherwise there are some odd rules/"laws" about leaving children of certain ages on their own at home.
Having a live-in certainly eases all of the issues surrounding going out and socialising.
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I'm in the same situation as Afoley except that we will be living in a serviced apartmetnt for the foreseable future and therefore have no helper's quarters and thus no possibility to have a live-in. Any recommandation/tip?
many thanks in advance
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If you are living in a serviced apartment will you actually need a helper? We used to live in one and got by without one, but your circumstances might well be different.
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Can someone explain and what circumstances a person MAY need live out help?. A person who requires 2 domestic helpers because of family size and an apartment that simply will not fit them in MUST be an issue. Can I get a link or deffinition on the rule please?
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McAlpine, Immigration will NEVER grant a permit for live-out regardless of your circumstances. The only exception is if an employer got an exception before 2003 (if memory serves) and still has that same helper.
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Thx for the clarification cara. Still, that's still makes the scope fairly narrow.
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thanks all. I actually need a helper to look after the children while we're both at work (not to do the cleaning which is provided with the serviced apartment). I don't mind of course paying extra to house her, it is just that there is no helper's quarter in the serviced apartment and I won't have her sleep in the lounge or under the kitchen table ! so I'm puzlled as to how to find under these circumstances a full-time helper ?
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Well, either you find a space for her or you find a "local" helper, meaning one with a permit to work for any employer. If memory serves the three options are permanent resident, citizen or dependent of resident.
There are services like Rent-a-mom that provide such. Also this websites lists them.
Note that a room is not actually required by law. You must provide a "private space". Having said that I do agree that a helper's room is the way to go if at all possible. Do you have any large closets? Many such have been converted to (admittedly small) helper's rooms
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She can sleep in the children's room and if there's 2 rooms, to sleep with one of them.
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well, I guess it's a "newcomer" syndrom but it's already difficult having a "maid" so having her sleeping with us and for her to have no privacy (nor us) that is probably too quick for us !
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I'm sure there is some "newcomer syndrome there" but that doesn't make it wrong. There important to remember that she is not a houseguest. You can merrily ignore each other apart from work matters.
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I arrived in HK last year and was in a similar position to the original poster - like privacy, don't have a large helper space, didn't need a lot of child care.
I posted an ad on Asia Expat for LEGAL, part-time help. It took some time (and sorting through lots of responses to helpers who would not be legal), but I met three women who met my requirements. The one we selected is fantastic - she comes three days a week for three hours. In that time she is able to clean our large flat, do laundry, iron, water plants, etc. She babysits when asked, but we usually can find a teenager to help when needed.
I know that having a full-time helper is the norm here, but we LOVE our part-time arrangement. Again, it just takes a bit of time and patience to find someone...but it IS do-able.
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axptguy38 ... when you say "private space" , does it literally say private space within YOUR property. Im just trying to see if there is any other way to interpret the rules. Of course many helpers do live out but the risks are that they are infomrmed on from other helpers. Fines then ensue and visa's revoked. Anyone here wish to annonymously explain how they make it work, since it is quite common in HK.
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"axptguy38 ... when you say "private space" , does it literally say private space within YOUR property."
Yes, within your residence. There is not much wiggle room in the regs. "Helper must live in the employer's residence." "Helper must have a private space."
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McAlpine, this is how some people preserve their privacy by getting around the live-in rule:
They provide the helper with "private space within the employer's residence". This space is recorded in the contract as required. The helper keeps her clothes and other possessions there. The employer then gives the helper permission to sleep elsewhere most nights provided she turns up for work at the agreed time each day. The helper occasionally sleeps at the employer's residence (eg when babysitting) but mostly sleeps elsewhere. The employer generally gives the helper extra money to assist with the additional costs of sleeping elsewhere.
As i understand it, the "live-in" requirement for FDHs is to ensure that they are given adequate and appropriate accomodation (ie it is a FDH protection). Many helpers prefer to live in as it is cheaper and better accomodation that would otherwise be available to them (and allows them to save).
For the alternative to work you need to find the right helper - someone who likes their independence but can also act responsibly in respect of their job. It is not necessarily any easier or better than having a live-in FHD it just gives rise to a different set of potential issues the employer and helper need to resolve (eg helper not turning up for work, helper taking on part-time work etc).
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Thank you smallfry and axpguy for your responses. these have been the most informative and concise responses on a tricky issue I have seen and read in these forumns. With this knowledge i think i can move forward here. It is exactly this kind of information that makes these forums valuable to the HK comunity. Respect!
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