Posted by
FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Hi just want to share and possible get advice on the following:
I take the shuttle bus from my building every morning on my way to work and it is always the same: this Chinese woman (from the mainland) with her 4-5 year old daughter which is a mix, I think the Dad is Canadian.
They are always late, catching the bus at the last minute, so the stress begins right there.
For instance this is what happened this morning (she is loud and were also seating behind me) she is yelling at girl because she got up too late, because she went to bed too late. Because she doesn’t want to pay attention at school so she is like Pinocchio and will grow donkey ears, (the girl is fluent in both English and Chinese).
Then she is telling the kid that if she doesn’t want to study she will become a helper or a monkey and will have to live in the country side, if she wants that for her.
Then the girl replies that someone from their family lives in the country side, next the mother tells her she is so stupid and why she is talking back to her, she will hit her again just like the day before.
She goes on and on about the girl talking back to her, and that if she thinks she is so smart she should pay the rent, how much money she has etc.
The girl at that moment remembers she had to take money to school for a donation, her mother tells her she is not giving her anything, if she thinks she is so rich she can take that money out of her piggy bank, then the girl asked for the money again, the mother says no she can give it tomorrow, since she thinks she is so rich she can manage her own needs.
Next she puts the girl to count from 1 up to 300 so she learns her lesson for having a big mouth etc etc. All this in a 10-15 min ride.
I felt like telling this woman, she should get up earlier and it is her responsibility to make sure the kid goes to bed earlier. Then how she expects the girl to do well at school if every morning is the same, she already arrives defeated at school from all this mental abuse.
I am also a mother, I totally understand sometimes kids can drive us crazy but really no way I could talk my kids this way, belittle them in public or in private for that matter.
Should I get the courage and tell this woman what I think, so she knows she is not that smart, how can she make such terrible mistakes in the most important assign we have in life: our kids. On top of that her English is terrible yet she insists in talking to the girl in English, I guess so to put the girl in public embarrassment.
I know Chinese culture is different when it comes to education but really, is this acceptable even for them?
My stomach gets nauseous just listening.
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Lord give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Do you really think that this woman will change her behaviour because you criticise her in public?
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I agree with woods99. Unfortunately you can't "save" every child, and as woods99 says nothing will change. Most likely the mother will find some way to punish the child for your comments.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Yes I guess I should just put on my iPod or take an earlier bus I know the girl will get punish and will only make things worts for her.
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True. Calling out the mother in public probably will not change her abusive parenting style. However, if someone does so it could be a future memory/lesson for the child on how to stand up for herself and build defensive mechanism to handle 'life' better. Naturally it would need to be done with care and not spiral into some crazy, nasty 'jerry springer' episode.
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So, how about the next time you hear this little girl counting from 1-300 (as a punishment), or similar, you comment, "Wow, what a very clever little girl you are, mummy must be so proud of you!" Maybe it will make the mother think twice before berating her little girl in public, and if she thinks people are listening to her she might treat her child with a little love and respect, rather than constantly telling her off.
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You should not interfere. Just a typical HK mum. By the way, if her dad is a westerner, then the child will probably be taller than her mum at the age of nine. Happened with my eldest daughter.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
What do you mean by that? At age 9 when she is taller she can hit back her mum?
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I agree with Sapphire's suggestion. Best approach would be to try to influence mum in a positive way to help 'her' learn or change herself. Perhaps you can start by introducing yourself to her and let her know that you have a child too, which is something you have in common and go from there. Bring up how your child does this and that and how you deal with it. Might give her some ideas and gives her a chance to reflect and compare them to how she thought she would have dealt with it. Maybe at some later time, suggest a play date... Maybe you might learn something from her too. Nobody is perfect and one that thinks they are, is even further from being so themselves (not saying that that is what you are thinking).
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I agree with Rayzilla, if you are able to set up some sort of relationship with this woman, you are far, far likelier to be able to get her to modify her behaviour.
Remember, you do not see more than a glimpse of her - you do not understand her, her life, her circumstances. There is usually a lot more to situations like this than meet the eye.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Rayzilla
Nobody is talking or looking for perfection, is about being sensitive. We all make mistakes or can be sometimes mean to our kids and later regret it but as I said it is almost every day like this but today was one of the worst days.
Some other times is about spelling this or that word. If one displays this kind of behaviour in public, then in private most probably is worst. As I wrote she told the girl she was going to hit her just like the day before.
Maybe I will make a casual comment about the stress and running in the morning and that I tried to get up a bit earlier whenever possible.
Set up a play date no thanks we clearly have here dif ideas regarding parenting and while I feel bad about the girl have no interest in developing a friendship nor I will trust my girl stay in her house for a playdate.
We all tell off our kids, I am not agains discipline but this is already mental abuse.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Cara,
We all tell off our kids, of course I wouldn't wait home to discipline my child, do not miss the mark.
I am by no means saying do not reprimend the child in public and I am not talking about an adult humiliating another adult and me just wanting to intervene for the sake of it.
I am talking about a verbally abussive mother. And yes I've been living in HK for 9 years and having 2 kids a know there are many parenting styles we all are different, of course you don't know me and you do not have to believe me.
It will be always easier to turn our heads the other way and think that it is not really what it seems or it is not as bad, but child abuse and neglection do exist.
I cannot go as far as to think that everyday all the time is like this, the girl has a Dad and a helper most likely they are not like that.
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Why not just politely ask the loud Lady to lower her voice please, and add that the whole bus load of passengers does not want to hear her business.
If it is said in a calm way, the more likely she is to listen.
If she does lower her voice tone, it will also have a better effect on her child too.
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Some good comments by woods and cara.
"Nobody is talking or looking for perfection, is about being sensitive. We all make mistakes or can be sometimes mean to our kids and later regret it but as I said it is almost every day like this but today was one of the worst days."
And do you know if mum may regret it and make it up to her later in the day? One of my daughters constantly eats at a snails pace almost every morning. Relatively, it can be one of the more stressful times of the day. Easy to say, parents are responsible for getting their kids ready in time but we've tried many things but same results. Sometimes I may over react but soon after, apologize for my reaction shortly after but sometimes not until later in the day. But if what you described above is 'the worst' then I think you may be over reacting because there probably have been times where you may have been worse.
"Some other times is about spelling this or that word. If one displays this kind of behaviour in public, then in private most probably is worst. As I wrote she told the girl she was going to hit her just like the day before."
Another way to look at it, at least mum shows some care for her daughters learning. Some parents expect the school to take care of all of that.
Also, some of these parents actually act the same way in public as they do in private. In some ways, that is a good thing (being more consistent for the child) and that it doesn't get any worse than what you have already seen.
"Maybe I will make a casual comment about the stress and running in the morning and that I tried to get up a bit earlier whenever possible."
That's more the spirit. You never know, she may end up being a different person than you think. You are only judging her by this similar scenario.
"Set up a play date no thanks we clearly have here dif ideas regarding parenting and while I feel bad about the girl have no interest in developing a friendship nor I will trust my girl stay in her house for a playdate."
I'm not saying that you leave your daughter out of your sight. You would stay and get to know mum a little better in an environment that is different from the morning rushed/hectic period. What harm can that have on your child. If anything, it can let her see how 'lucky' she is to have you as a parent. But you never know...
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Cara, so true. I'm a very patient person so I usually handle it quite well in the morning. We have never been late yet, only close. Her 'cute act' always puts a smile and laugh on my face so we almost always leave home on a good note. :)
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So much stress and so many worries.
Really don't know how you can make it through the day.
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Cara, your comments put a smile on my face because I've been there and done that many times. I am lucky (and my kids especially) that I have a super high patience level. My younger one's frequent response is "I don't remember" and my older one loves to throw out answers/numbers that do not make any sense. I am prepared to 'expect' these responses from them and work with them to get better responses. Not always the correct answer but most importantly, the EFFORT to come to a reasonable answer.
Who thought that parenting would be so much fun and challenging at the same time. :)
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I would say it's none of your business and stay out of it. If you want to ask her nicely to lower her voice, that's fine, but avoid giving parenting advice to strangers. I also want to add this is not typical HK parenting style, as many HK parents would not do this - I see many children take my bus in the morning and I've not seen this crop up.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Philly Cheese,
I clearly said this is a woman from China not HK and I never said this is HK typical behavior, if I thought this was typical I wouldn't be amused.
And yes, none of my business and after seeing her today in action won't tell her anything, not even to lower her voice.
As always running late to catch the bus, but today the husband was with them.
Lucky day for the girl since the prey was the husband. She went on and on about his family being stupid for buying toys to the girl even though she already told them they don't have to buy anything for this peanut brain. (The girl seating next to her Dad)
The husband kept asking her to lower her voice and also was telling her he saw nothing wrong about his family buying gifts for the girl. She went again on an on etc
She won't lower her voice even the husband was asking her, for sure I am not intending to tell her /ask her anything she won’t listen to me either.
In my heart I feel bad for the girl but nothing for me to do here, except to listen some music and put my book on hold until I get to the MTR.
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from your description she sounds like a real shrew...there's little chance of her ever changing her behavior, short of some personal cataclysmic event, so you'd likely be better off getting an earlier/later shuttle and avoiding her altogether...at least the husband sounds a bit more caring/rational, for the girl's sake
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FIFIB, understand your feeling. This issue is very 'deep', good that you can speak out and it may make yourself feeling better.
Nothing we can do to the Mainlanders, this is my humble verdict.
They didn't listen, took advice, considered or whatsoever in the past when they were still from a poor 3rd country. Now, they have the cash, they think they have the power and right (everything can be bought in their mind) to do whatever they want so do you think they will give a damn to others?
I repeat, nothing we can do to the Mainlanders.
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FIFIB/Renoexperthk. How would you react if someone came up to you and said, " Excuse me but I don't think you are pushing your child enough. Hong Kong and China are both extremely competitive places and I think your approach to child-rearing lacks a forceful, motivational element. Your kid could easily underachieve and be a bum who can't even read Chinese properly. I hope you understand, I'm only being helpful."? Unless the parent is doing something illegal (and smacking is not illegal here), then the parent has every right to bring up the child as he/she sees fit. She may not be giving comparisons that are acceptable to modern human resources management, but quite frankly, who cares? Also, please remember that local and mainland people have to compete. Most don't have the luxury of a foreign passport that gives them the option of living in a country which has lots of space and a strong social security system (though I note you say this family is Canadian, I assume the mother was not brought up in the western, liberal tradition). Also, because of the Confucian culture here, if you don't make the grade you'll have to spend the rest of life taking orders for little or no reward. Quite amused to hear the kid come back with, "Well our relatives live in the country." LOL.
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Loyd,
That's what I meant the issue is very 'deep'.
I'm local Chinese, I have oversea passport, I have kids, I was in the western nations for quite long and I'm sure I know the Chinese culture and the circumstance better than you do (assume you are not Chinese). Let FIFIB speak that out to make herself feels better is pretty much the most we can offer to help.
Maybe I don't have the wisdom to advise....
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Renoexperthk. Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by 'deep'. You mean FIFB should speak out to the lady or just vent her fury on this board? Why the apparent swipe at Mainlanders?
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LGiMV, I can't speak for Renoexperthk, but have you honestly not noticed a general difference in mannerisms, comportment, etc. between HK Chinese (excepting recent immigrants) and Mainland Chinese persons?
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In the westerner's eyes, all asians are pretty much the same. I don't expect them to realize the difference between Korean and Japanese, no need to mention the difference in between Mainlanders and the so called Hkese. It's totally acceptable. As most of us can't tell the difference between the accents of an American and a Scottish.
This is just a minor part of the 'deep' that i meant. Don't get me wrong, it's nothing about discrimination but just a fact.
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Lucas. Well you can usually tell the difference from accent, political views etc - and there is always going to be a difference between locals and residents - but I don't see any reason to take an apparent swipe at them. It's like grouping all western tourists and long-term western residents together. Good and bad in both groups.
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All I can say is, don't ever visit the tier 2 or below cities in China or your head will explode. This bus 'incident' is nothing.
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Haha.....good post@gaz_hayes.
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Actually, I think Loyd makes some very interesting points and s/he appears to know what s/he is talking about. I don't know if he knows it better than Renoexperthk but seems to understand it well enough.
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I don't mind you venting on this particular woman but to take a swipe at all mainland Chinese for this one loudmouth is a big stretch. By the way this has nothing to do with culture. I don't think anyone appreciates a parenting lesson from a stranger - Mainland, local, pink, green or otherwise.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Philly Cheese,
While I can keep my mouth shut to this woman, I can suggest:
You learn to read means understand what you are reading.
First you came to me saying this is not HK behavior then I pointed out I never said she was from HK.
Now you are sayin that I am swiping all mainland women when I never said all mainland women are like this, I was refereing to this particular woman read again.
And I never wrote the post with the intention of venting read again I was looking for advise.
While it drives me crazy abuse and not only to kids but to animals or any other defendless criture I get this is not for me to interfere.
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It's clearly true that expat wife's have so little to do that they end up talking about things that really don't need talking about.
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Dear FIFIB,
If I were witnessing this on a daily basis I would be just as horrified as I believe you have suggested you are. In fact mortified. I would sit there constantly telling myself "I have to say something" and day dream about ways I could teach this mother a lesson.
But as many have suggested unfortunately it would not solve any of the problems and would potentially create a far bigger one.
So if it were me, I would kill with kindness. As someone has suggested above, I would lavish praise on the little girl, I would make eye contact with her every morning and say "Hi". I would tell her she looks pretty, that her hair is nice, that her counting is good, that she is getting taller, how polite she is. It would be hard for me but I wouldnt be too overly obvious - just enough to reach out and perhaps give her some balance. I would do this to help satisfy my need to want to put a bag over the mothers head and smother her.
This is simply what I would do - for what it is worth.
Good luck.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Dear Sammy19
Thanks for your words you couldn't have describe my feelings better.
Many on this forum have totally gone the wrong way by thinking that I am out and about giving parenting lessons but this is not the case of one loosing the temper one day is about constant abuse.
This is only in the 10 min ride that I witness during the week
I just feel like telling her sh**t why is so difficult to get up 10 min earlier instead of taking it on your girl?
How one can be like animal not letting your prey go?
Psychologist suggest to keep it short and on the spot when reprimanding kids, if we go on and on makes them take their mind somewhere else.
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FIFIB - Firsty, you telling me to learn to read smacks of condescending attitude. If that is not your intention then it must be me because I took it that way. When one responds to a thread it could be to the op or someone else that posted. My comment about HK parents had to do with someone referencing HK parents posting after you(or it could mean parents in HK in general). Also it was you that brought up culture, and if you had said it was a woman and girl that got on the bus, without referencing her mixed race, language, mainland, etc then perhaps one would not think that you are generalizing at all. Btw your followup posts do nothing to dispel you are venting - nothing wrong with venting thar what forums like this are for.
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Renoexpertinhk. You said, "In the westerner's eyes, all asians are pretty much the same. I don't expect them to realize the difference between Korean and Japanese, no need to mention the difference in between Mainlanders and the so called Hkese."
That's simply not true.
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Okay, lets get away from the all cultural stuff and approaches to parenting. FIFIB, why not make a simple pros and cons list. If you tell her what you think, what is your potential upside and what is your downside?
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Upside:
There is the chance she could change, this will greatly benefit the girl because she could continue growing up with good self-esteem.
We could cut the chain of learnt behavior, means if she becomes a mother one day the girl would not do the same to her kids, as we sometimes do the same things we did not like about our parents.
Maybe the relationship between mother and daughter could be saved.
Like I said, is not about reprimanding or not, but how she can go on a on for the whole ride, and I do not think this is over the minute she steps foot out of the coach.
I remember one time when my daughter was 5 years old I was taking her to her school bus stop, so I asked her the day of the week, she didn't know the answer so I went crazy, still cannot forget her little face when she got on the bus, she looked real sad :o( then I promised to myself to never do that again. I can certainly reprimand them at any time of the day but If I cannot control my temper and educate as supposed to react I put myself in time out, it is not easy but I try to be really conscious about it as the moral hangover hits me really hard.
Downside:
Nothing changes and becomes angrier when she sees me, takes it up harder on the girl.
She could focus on me and will be saying things in Mandarin which some of my other neighbors will be able to understand, but not me, I wouldn't be sure if she is talking about me and what is she saying so cannot defend myself.
On the other I've been thinking: The girl has a father, he seems nice but didn't say anything when she called the girl peanut brain my husband would just not let it go, or maybe he was focused on the part of her calling stupid his family, hard to say.
Lucky me I took a taxi today so avoided the whole thing.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Yes I know, I always try take an earlier bus or like today, I was late for the 7:50 shuttle then I waited for a taxi which in fact was only 4 minutes away fromthe next shuttle but I preffer to pay the $27 ride to central, problem is when I am not lucky no taxies then I have to endure the ride.
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Put in this way, one day you go to a place to have dinner. Before you order, you recognize the people next table are eating dog, snake, turtle....etc. What you gonna do?
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Well the analogy doesn't make much sense, why would I go to a restaurant where they serve a menu I don't like? For one thing turtles are in danger of extinction so I don’t support their consumption.
Second before this family moved to the building 1 month ago aprox, I never had this problem before. The shuttle bus is a public service offered to the residents and before this woman I never had the feeling of: OMG this woman is coming. It was quite convenient to take it.
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FIFIB. I fear you may be deluding myself. Here's my take on the situation -
Upside: None whatsoever. Nada. Rien. Absolute zero, zero degrees Kelvin.
Downside: A day in the cells - possibly Queen Mary Hospital - or both leading to your name being mentioned in HK Magazine's much-read 'In Reality Last Week' column . At the very least, a local reputation for being 'mah fahn'.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
LGIMV
You are so mean, you ask me to write down my list to later call me a Mah fanh.
Iwilltry,
Thanks you get my point. And you are so right about the human nature thank God to people like Roger Fouts he was not able to save all the chimps from captivity and from being subjected to terrible conditions but he saved 5 chimps from a terrible future and that's already good enough.
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FIFBI, Its good to know that there are people out there who care. Verbal or physical it is still abuse and as iwilltry has said its not normal parent behaviour.
I so agree with that it is cowardly not to speak up. It maybe that this mother is doing exactly what her mother did to her but it is not acceptable to treat any child in such a way. Public humiliation is not acceptable for any child, so by speaking up at least the child will know that her mothers behaviour is not acceptable and you never know she may just stop at least in public.
The upside.. you get to enjoy a peaceful journey!
The downside .... she may just continue but at least you tried.
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I think the word 'abuse' is bandied around far too much. To me abuse is being chained to bed or something like that and being fed solely on M&Ms. Having your mum shout at you or scold in public is not abuse nor is it public humiliation. People were publicly humiliated during the Cultural Revolution - this is not humiliation.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
To be one day called donkey, monkey, stupid and the next peanut brain is not humiliation? What happened to you? When did you become so insensitive?
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It depends on the context. The fact that she can answer back shows she is no fool and she appears, from your account, to be taking it in her stride. You are more likely to scare the child by confronting her mother in public. No child likes to see their mother reproached by a stranger. Her mother is probably very kind to her when not stressed. It really is none of your business.
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iwilltry - "Before we tell someone its none of your business, try to put yourself in a place if someone told your child off, even if it was for a just reason, that tone and language will never be accepted by a sane-brained parent." I couldn't disagree with you more - it is not someone telling off a child, it is that child's own mother.
Who are you to impose you own parenting style on someone's else child. What if someone came and said to you - "You have all this time on the minibus, why are you not drilling your kid in times table. Don't you care about their schooling. Sitting there so quiet, why aren't you interacting/communicating with your kid?"
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I can't believe the opinions that I'm reading in this thread. Is it 2011?
Would any of you allow yourselves to be berated and put down on a daily basis? Does anyone here TRULY believe this is acceptable behavior? To suggestion that this type of behavior is not abuse is pure ignorance, laughable at best. If it was physical abuse most of us would probably interfere, but because there aren't any black or blue marks, does that make it less damaging?
The defeatist attitude is so typical of HK. It won't make a difference so let's not do anything. Let someone else take the initiative, I've got money to make, it's not my problem, etc. Take a stand, Speak up. It's got to start somewhere, by someone. if you think something is wrong, do something about it. Stand by your convictions.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Dear Philly Cheese,
You had made this argument before but it is not comparative.
Why someone will come and tell you to start talking as loud as you can and call names to your child? This just doesn't make sense.
If you and your child are minding your own business one must be crazy to disrupt whatever you are doing (internal thinking, reading, listening music, nothing etc)
If someone prefers drilling as to logical thinking is perfectly fine with me, even if this woman had the kid repeating like a parrot that’s her choice.
Now I don’t see why drilling has to come together with name calling and yelling, but I can see where’re you coming from, after reading yesterday this Tiger Mother. For her it is perfectly fine to call her daughter garbage bag, I can see from her point of view peanut brain, stupid, donkey etc is part of the normal interaction between parents and kids.
I do not believe putting down a child is the only way to get your kid to excel in school, I still thinking this woman is out of line and even if this is her choice to educate her girl this way, I wonder if this is also the girl’s choice?
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bbrave. You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions. I'm guessing that you are not over 35 but maybe I'm wrong. On the question of intervening, about 10 years ago saw a man hitting a woman and pulling her hair under the HSBC building at 1 Queen's Road Central at about 6pm. One Chinese guy tried to intervene but backed off. I have two daughters so I thought I had to do something. So I intervened - and got shouted at by both of them. The woman screamed it was private matter (unbelievable at 1 Queen's Road Central!) and the guy told me to F** off. Fortunately, I'm quite big and I threatened him back and it ended up with us both backing off. Just goes to show, eh, and this is a case when the guy was actually commiting assault. In FIFIB's situation the mother has done absolutely nothing illegal and many people, including myself, would just see it as a stressed out parent.
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To quote you "If you and your child are minding your own business one must be crazy to disrupt whatever you are doing (internal thinking, reading, listening music, nothing etc)" - exactly, the woman and child were minding their own business on a PRIVATE bus (assume this is a residents only minibus), so does that make your behaviour crazy then if you disrupted them?
If it is the noise that bothers you, fine, ask them to tone it down a little.
bbrave - please stop with this generalisation already "defeatist attiude so typical of ..." Are all Australian's complacent as well cause they all watched as Casey Heynes got bullied for 3 years? Don't answer, the question was rhetorical. Some people speak loudly to each other, some people refer to their sons as "fat pigs" or their daughters as "pullng cows up a tree", and god forbid some call their kids ugly because they did not comb their hair in the morning. Shaming your kid is how some people teach. Sorry it offends so many people here to witness it but it is none of your business.
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LGMV you are delusional IMO. have you read your own posts?
just because it may not be illegal, doesn't make it right.
you're probably one of those who wait for others to dictate what is right or wrong, instead of being able to make up your own mind. Hitting a child was once not illegal. there is a difference between a bad day and daily emotional abuse.
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It's not illegal to smack in HK. It's called reasonable chastisement and most parents support it. Who are you decide what is wrong and right? How old are you?
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oh now you speak for most parents. lovely. confirmed you are delusional.
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bbrave. Again jumping to conclusions. If most parents didn't support it, it would obviously be illegal. In the UK, they tried to ban it but met with very strong opposition leading Tony Blair to make a statement along the lines of, "I support parents' right to smack but have never smacked my own children."
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lgmv how am i jumping to conclusions? by quoting you and stating that you're delusional, IMO.
okay i hear you. you support child-smacking, that's obvious.
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Well by claiming that I speak for most parents and saying most parents support smacking are not the same thing. Your method of debating is simply to attack the person who disagrees with you rather than arguing the point. In some ways, it's a kind of bullying.
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Oh, and by the way I don't support 'child smacking', I support a parent's right to smack (not beat or abuse) should a reasanable parent deem it necessary. I'm not a big fan of governments getting involved in child rearing - extreme examples include Pol Pot and Hitler Youth. On the whole, best to leave things to the parents as the vast majority of them deeply care for their own kids - though there are always exceptions of course.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Not the topic of this thread anymore, but as you may have notice I do not support child smacking, but just to know:
Is there any government guidelines with regards number of smacking allowed per incident? Are there any other forms of physical punishment also include such as pulling hair, pulling ears, pinching or is just smacking?
Is there also an age range for this? It wouldn’t be the same to smack the 1 year old vs the 8 year old since their comprehension level is different.
I wonder why Rabbie Shmuley or Supper Nanny haven’t listed this type of child education or did I miss the episode?
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"I wonder why Rabbie Shmuley or Supper Nanny haven’t listed this type of child education or did I miss the episode?"
They haven't because smacking is mostly an anger release for the parents. It is completely unnecessary in child rearing and in many cases leads to issues later.
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FIFIB. No. Why should there be? Most parents can handle their kids without have to refer to a government handbook.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Dear axpatguy38
Totally agree with you.
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lgmv, hypocritical lately?
you claim, and I quote, "Your method of debating is simply to attack the person who disagrees with you rather than arguing the point."
I choose to quote your earlier question to me: "How old are you?"
Is this how you keep things non-personal and make thought-provoking arguments?
next time before you make accusations look in the mirror.
as for your child-smacking stance, you can slice and dice your own words however you like but you'll never convince me of it's merit or effectiveness.
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bbrave. Not hypocritical. Genuinely want to know your age as it's often the case that young people hold idealist, utopian views. These change as they get more experience. Just out of interest, would you be unwilling to change your view if life experience showed otherwise - or are they fixed by some dogma. By the way, are you parent?
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axptguy38. I wouldn't agree that smacking is an anger release for most parents. I think it would be used as a last resort for some kind of serious anti-social behaviour such as shop-lifting or bullying. As to it being totally unnecessary, I'm not sure. It may be the case for a middle class parent but for a poor single mum trying to bring up a house full of kids, she may need to get her point across quicker. I would agree a severely beaten and abused child would probably have problems later in life, but a kid who was smacked for doing wrong - I would say the odds are massively against.
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
LGIMV
Now this doesn't really make sense. You have a bully at school and will smack him for that? The smaking thing is supposed to be some kind of quick message to stop a behavior that is unnaceptable. I doubt very much shop-lifting and bullying can be corrected with smacking.
With regards the age of bbrave, you mean that new generation means under 35 do not believe in smacking but over do? I am 35 going 36 I do not smack and was never smacked or subjected to any other form of physical abuse.
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LGIMV Why would you think that it would be aceptable to hit a child for bullying. Surely hitting a child in any way shape or form is a form of bullying in its self. I really do not get your logic.
99.9 times out of 100 hitting a child comes about because the adult had lost control.
It is out of order for you to say that any singel mum is poor, it may indeed be her choice to be singel and why can't a singel mum be a middle class parent and why should a singel mum hit her children as opposed to any other parent?
I would say your comments about singel mums are derogatory.
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Pathetic.
No wonder the world is in the pan.
Sooner the asteroids hit, the better.
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FIFIB/Swimmers. It's simplistic to say smacking a bully encourages bullying - or is, in itself, a form of bullying. Meting out a physical punishment is simply giving a bully a taste of his own medicine. It protects the weak and can't be a form of bullying as it is not persistent and the bully has brought it on himself. Most bullies I saw at school only did things they could get away with and immediately backed down when threatened by someone bigger - or physical punishment. There wasn't much bullying at our school in the UK when corporal punishment was still legal and applied - very sparingly. As soon as a case was spotted it was clamped down on immediately. Most kids were then able go about their daily business without fear - including the weaker ones.
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FIFIB, Perhaps you could just print out this entire discussion (or maybe just the top half... it seems to have gone off the rails lately), put it in an envelope, and hand it to the mother the next time you see her!
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
That's a good idea but just to save my long hair I should just put it in her mailbox.
And btw is someone has a bully at home do not smack him/her as most probably is because the kid feels insecure or is angry. Instead I suggest to look for ways to coope with his/her problems.
I can suggest a program: Friends for Life that will teach / guide the kid through difficult situations in life such as being bullied or wanting to be a bully.
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FIFIB. Apart from being a bureaucratic nightmare, I don't think this kind of programme would have the slightest affect on young, aggressive adolescent males. It might, however, work with very small kids. But again, you are assuming most people live in places in HK where it would be relatively simple to set up a programme like this - assuming they can make the rent.
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Why not? They're the ones who cause the most trouble and benefit the most from being kept in line.
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Loyd, you're wasting your time.
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Ringo123. I probably am but you only have to look at the number of youth stabbings in the UK, and the dumbing down of education to see that modern educational and child rearing theories are completely bogus. If you don't believe me, look at an 'O' Level maths paper for say 1964 and compare it with the equivalent in 2010. This one of the reasons I like HK. Singapore also good but I hate censorship and the death penalty.
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Grab the Canadian husband, let him read this thread.
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Record by your phone... burn a CD... mail it to husband.
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FIFIB,
I really don't understand most of the answers you have received to your questions! I can not believe that so many people will not care and will look somewhere else when they see abuses. Nevermind...it is the same thing in every countries, only a few people have the courage to stand up for what they believe, but most of then will just follow the flow...
Don't hesitate to do what you think is right, at least, you will feel like you have done something to help this little girl.
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Julie,
Good luck in your campaign to change the world to your way of thinking.
By the way, how long have you lived in Hong Kong, and how much change have you achieved in the behaviour of Hong Kong people?
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imho, it's not about changing the world...just doing what you think is right...doesn't matter if it's hong kong or anywhere else...
good on you Julie and FIFIB for trying!
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Funbobby,
History is littered with catastrophes caused by people doing what "they think is right".
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Woods99,
History is also littered with catastrophes caused by people not doing anything because "what's the purpose to try to do what's right, nothing is going to change" this is just pesimistic way of thinking.
The world can sometimes be like a bucket full of crabs grabbing the one that is trying to get out of the bucket.
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What a fascinating thread! I was only looking for advice forums for a friend moving to Hong Kong and came across this.
I think it is admirable that you show concern for the child on the bus and want to do something.. there are so many situations where we as a public just sit and watch and think it is 'none of our business' when people might genuinely need help.I am not suggesting anyone needs help here but how will you know if you don't try.
There could be a million explanations to understand the mother's behaviour from interpretation of events to cultural view of what you think, she thinks, i think is is right for a child. It could even be a narcissistic mother who spends all her time criticizing her daughter in order to create the perfect child when what she is actually doing is performing a subtle form of abuse which will have an impact on the childs life at some point.
I cannot claim any of the above since I have not the seen the situation but if it bothers you, I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to make a positive change if you believe it to be a negative situation.But the skill will be in doing it with emotinal intelligence
Hong Kong is an international city, she is living in an international environment. The child has a western father.I doubt that she and the family are far removed culturally speaking compared to you.
Culture aside, we are all humans at the end of the day. Unfortunately only when a tragedy takes place do we finally recognise the value of standing up and doing or saying something but it is too late. It is also a time when we recognise how similar we all are with our basic values which come in the form or the need for support, love, food shelter etc. We all experience being children, alot of us experience being parents. I cannot imagine that your 'intervention' would be the first or only time the mother will have heard comments about the way she is parenting.I very much doubt that you are the only witness to this daily event with the same thoughts.
To say that someone cannot change is poppy cock.We all change...when we choose to. Often we defy people out of spite when they want us to change but it does not mean we have not listened (and you may never know this) We also defy them when we see how they tell us to change is criticism.
And who knows maybe she needs help, needs support, needs someone to give her some of the basic needs she may be lacking.
If her husband is telling her all day to be quiet, perhaps she is living her own set of problems which get transferred to the daughter.... who knows... but if we all sit in silence in the situation and discuss it in a way that is sadly becming the way we are choosing to communicate these days (and I am guilty): in forums and social networks, then sadly nothing will change at all.
I agree that an emotionally intelligent way to deal with it is setting a postive example towards the child without coming across as condescending to the mother
An extreme way to do something is to take advantage of our digital world.Record her and compile all of it into a video and then give it to her to watch or give it to the father to watch.Often we have no idea what we are doing until we recognise its ugliness in others or we actually see ourselves.
Even more extreme.. post the clip on youtube and let the world debate parenthood and culture
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Okay, FIFIB, take the plunge. Please honestly post what her response is on this forum - assuming a) she doesn't beat you senseless and b) you are not lynched by the other pohpohs and ah-bahts on the bus. I think it's extreme arrogance on your part as she is breaking no law, the child is just being nagged at and not 'abused'; and finally (and most importanty), you will probably scare the child by demeaning her mum in public. Talk about lose, lose situation.
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I'll admit, I've not had time to read the whole thread but have just skimmed it. I'd be the type to confront the mother personally. I have on a number of occasions in the past and will in the future in similar situations. I'm also the kind to tell kids off at the park/on the bus/in the supermarket when they're being rude to their helpers and I once forced an 8 year old to give me his mother's phone number and called her to tell her that her son was ripping branches off the frangipani tree outside my house....but hey, that's just me!
I'm sure you will not change the mothers behavior, but you might give the girl the idea that she is clever, good and worthwhile which in itself will be a positive change. Then, in the future, smile at the little girl when you see her and if you hear her counting to 300 or whatever, occasionally congratulate her on her achievement. I'm sure it will do wonders for her self esteem.
Can I suggest that when addressing the mother you remind her that a child so young cannot be responsible for their own child management and it is up to the parent to decide the bedtime, wake up time, et cetera. Say it in a one on one way but in a loud enough voice that the neighboring rows of seats can hear....it should add power to the argument. Try to not make it a passive aggressive attack or you will lower yourself to her level.
Good Luck.
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Oh, I wanted to add, please do record it on your phone then put it on youtube so we can all see, then hand her a piece of paper one morning with the link to the video once there are a few comments along the line of 'what a psycho-biatch mother' and 'poor little girl'.
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hmmm.. that is definitely not the best course of action.
But doing 'nothing' is also the wrong approach. Someone in this thread mentioned Pol Pot and Hitler ..I will mention here Ghandi and Mandela.. who against all odds .. against the biggest obstacles went on a crusade to 'SET AN EXAMPLE'.. and they did it achieving enormous respect the world over...They could have quite easily sat at home or in jail cynical and bitter and surrendered to the injustices as they saw them in the world... but they didn't.They had "utopian" views and they stuck by them...
and lets not forget Ghandi's famous quote "Be the change you want to see in the world"
But do it in a way that brings a positive outcome
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This is an issue close to my heart and the following are the responses that best express my position and the actions I take in these situations:
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Posted by bbrave (12 days ago)
True. Calling out the mother in public probably will not change her abusive parenting style. However, if someone does so it could be a future memory/lesson for the child on how to stand up for herself and build defensive mechanism to handle 'life' better. Naturally it would need to be done with care and not spiral into some crazy, nasty 'jerry springer' episode.
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Posted by Sapphire (12 days ago)
So, how about the next time you hear this little girl counting from 1-300 (as a punishment), or similar, you comment, "Wow, what a very clever little girl you are, mummy must be so proud of you!" Maybe it will make the mother think twice before berating her little girl in public, and if she thinks people are listening to her she might treat her child with a little love and respect, rather than constantly telling her off.
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Posted by Rayzilla (12 days ago)
I agree with Sapphire's suggestion. Best approach would be to try to influence mum in a positive way to help 'her' learn or change herself. Perhaps you can start by introducing yourself to her and let her know that you have a child too, which is something you have in common and go from there. Bring up how your child does this and that and how you deal with it. Might give her some ideas and gives her a chance to reflect and compare them to how she thought she would have dealt with it. Maybe at some later time, suggest a play date... Maybe you might learn something from her too. Nobody is perfect and one that thinks they are, is even further from being so themselves (not saying that that is what you are thinking).
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Posted by seacap (2 days ago)
Maybe you should approach it from a indirect manner. Begin by starting a friendly conversation with the mother or child. Complimenting the child's appearance, smile or some other aspect. If done over time and from the heart maybe you can make your points indirectly so this woman understands the damage she is doing to her child and herself. This approach is better than having regrets for doing nothing. Good Luck and Thanks For Caring
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Posted by Julie44 (1 day ago)
FIFIB,
I really don't understand most of the answers you have received to your questions! I can not believe that so many people will not care and will look somewhere else when they see abuses. Nevermind...it is the same thing in every countries, only a few people have the courage to stand up for what they believe, but most of then will just follow the flow...
Don't hesitate to do what you think is right, at least, you will feel like you have done something to help this little girl.
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Posted by funbobby (1 day ago)
imho, it's not about changing the world...just doing what you think is right...doesn't matter if it's hong kong or anywhere else...
good on you Julie and FIFIB for trying!
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Posted by FIFIB (1 day ago)
Woods99,
History is also littered with catastrophes caused by people not doing anything because "what's the purpose to try to do what's right, nothing is going to change" this is just pesimistic way of thinking.
The world can sometimes be like a bucket full of crabs grabbing the one that is trying to get out of the bucket.
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You'll know the best approach to take but yes, I find talking directly to the child to provide a counter narrative as one person suggested - "My! You know your numbers really well!" "What's your name? You always look so pretty!" - or commiserating with the mom, if for no other reason than to distract her from her negative and aggressive verbal barrage on the child, with things like "Yeah, mornings are always a nightmare, aren't they? What's your name?" are usually successful.
I had one occasion where I politely, with a smile, asked a parent to step away from any small ears to a private spot and had a pleasant chat. It was a low level incident where some very young kids were left alone at a table in a crowded food court.
I had another incident where I had to intervene when a mother had completely lost all composure and control in a public park, was running away from her child. The child - an7? 8? year old girl - was screaming and crying because her mother was running away from her and she was afraid of getting lost or not being able to find her way home and also because her mum had completely lost her temper. She then took the child's bag, threw it into a hedge and ran away from the child again. I grabbed the bag and had to find the woman and try to get her to calm down, relax and take her daughter's bag. It was tense and she tried to convince passersby that I was the bad guy. One guy even bluffed that he was going to call the police on me ... I think mainly because Hong Kong people don't have much experience handling conflict of this sort and he just wanted it to stop. I had to look at the woman and say calmly, "I'll stay and wait for the police. Do you want them to know what you did?" They all knew there were plenty of witnesses to her craziness so then the man stopped his bluff and encouraged the woman to calm down and a crowd that had gathered urged her to take her daughter's bag, which she'd refused to take until that point, and told her to calm down and walk away.
The mum in the first case really appreciated the chat I had with her and that I had the chat in a friendly way away from the kids. She was just rushed that day and wasn't thinking.
The second mother learned nothing that day except this - if you act like that in my space and in my view, you're making it my business and you won't get away with it. The daughter also learned that day that other people think that her mother's behaviour is unacceptable, that her belongings are worth respect and that people won't stand by while she's being terrorized by her parent. Later in life, this can make all the difference.
Studies have shown that all you need is one person who cares to make a difference in the life of a child in this sort of situation. One person.
Be that person.
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A couple of points. Firstly, you might be the one in a hundred with the skills that allow you to influence a total stranger, in public, to behave better. Most of us are not so skilful.
Secondly, I doubt that any study would show that one intervention by one stranger on one occasion makes a difference in any but the very rarest cases.
I do not mean to sound negative, but rather I hope I am being realistic. Yes, we all have a responsibility to be good citizens, within the limits of our own abilities, the laws of the land, and the bounds of what is possible.
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"A couple of points. Firstly, you might be the one in a hundred with the skills that allow you to influence a total stranger, in public, to behave better. Most of us are not so skilful."
Most of us have probably never tried...
"I do not mean to sound negative, but rather I hope I am being realistic. Yes, we all have a responsibility to be good citizens, within the limits of our own abilities, the laws of the land, and the bounds of what is possible."
It sounds to me as if you think offering advice in a mature, non-condescending way is beyond all but the most charismatic, profound individuals on the planet...there is nothing to fear from trying to make a difference...having the courage to try to make a difference is something we should all aspire to, not something to turn your back on or pooh-pooh because of one's own insecurity....who knows, it might even boost your self-confidence if you see the difference you can make!
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I've heard this one before but I'm no different from anyone else.
If I do have any skills, it's because I've built them through practice and let me tell you, the first few times I did things like this, my heart was racing, my hands and voice were shaky... I think I looked and sounded like a nervous idiot but I did it anyway - and always felt better afterwards that I'd done something.
It's very unfamiliar territory, especially in a safe city like Hong Kong. Most of the time we are surrounded by people who obey social rules. Then suddenly, an incident pops up and we're unsure of how to address another adult we don't know about behaviour of theirs that worries us or that we don't understand.
I think most of us are clear on what to do if we see a law being broken or something clearly dangerous etc. but this is a bizarre and confusing grey area for us so it's not easy the first few times. After a while, it gets easier and your judgment improves as well.
I doubt that I've had any lasting effect on these people to behave better but I think I have made a few of them think twice about doing certain things in public, especially when they're sharing space with so many others.
I hope when kids are involved, they do remember someone standing up for them. Abusive/Bullying parents often do things like this in public to increase feelings of hopelessness, helplessness or humiliation in children. They're trying to show them repeatedly that no one will help them or that others condone the parent's unacceptable behaviour.
"...we all have a responsibility to be good citizens, within the limits of our own abilities, the laws of the land, and the bounds of what is possible."
- Agree completely. My style is not for everyone but do what you can, do what you feel comfortable with and play to your skills. A tall male might need to tackle these situations differently from a short female. Expats and locals will tackle language and communication differently. Keep these things in mind. I think people fail to realize just how many options are available to them depending on the situation, what you're comfortable with, what stage the incident is at, your physicality and gender etc.
Apart from the ones I mentioned above, here's a list of things I've tried and found effective in different situations and times:
- just standing and staring (you'd be amazed how effective this can be in the right situation, usually 2 adults arguing in a strange way or one adult losing their temper at another)
- calling the police
- going up with a smile and saying "Can I help you?" as if I work there (I've found this one very helpful when disputes or confusion are bubbling but not full blown yet.)
- asking someone "Are you OK?"
- offering a child a snack
- talking to a mother who seems tired/about to snap
- positioning myself or using body language to communicate in more subtle situations
I'm sure there are even more options than that.
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"If you intervene once, than shouldn't you be consistant and do it everytime you see parenting methods you are at odds with???"
See this is where I think everyone is also getting confused. This isn't about parenting methods you are at odds with. I see parenting techniques all the time that I wouldn't use myself or that I don't agree with. I don't do anything in those cases.
We're talking here about clear cases of bullying/verbal aggression, dangerous negligence or adults not behaving like adults much less parents.
I really fail to see what problem you can have with someone saying to a small child being berated unnecessarily by their mother "I see you on the bus every day. You're such a smart girl."
But to each their own.
As for the other incidents I mentioned, I've already said that my style is not for everyone... so I guess we agree madtown.
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I guess I can only repeat myself here madtown. (You seem to enjoy debating. I just want to give this woman my opinion and support her in her efforts to deal with the situation in whatever way she chooses.)
I really fail to see what problem you can have with someone saying to a small child being berated unnecessarily by their mother "I see you on the bus every day. You're such a smart girl."
But to each their own.
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FIFB. Do you have children?
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FIFIB
14 yrs ago
Hi LGIMV,
Yes I guess you have missed when I mentioned that in one of my early replies. I have one girl 6.5 y/o and 1 boy almost 4.
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Wasn't sure. Couldn't bring myself to reread the whole thread.
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HK1
14 yrs ago
Love searching3773's summary of all the posts with which I agree...Thank you!
I am 36 (as age seems to be an important factor here, LGIMV) and like to believe the best in people, despite having not had an idealistic life at all - having suffered for many years at the hands of a verbally abusive mother which eroded my confidence no end...
I believe that one cannot change the world without both practicing what we preach and speaking up to state when things are clearly wrong in everyday situations.
It is painfully clear to me that this case is NOT about parenting styles. And it is such a shame that so many people here cannot see, if true, is clearly an awful situation (and I don't just mean for the uncomfortable bus ride for all the passengers). This is clearly about abuse (whichEVER country/culture you're from) and I have great respect for the original poster who clearly is concerned for the welfare (mental welfare is just as important as physical well-being) of a little girl.
If it were me, I'd compliment the little girl as much as possible and, rather than trying to educate a clearly ignorant woman on her parenting skills, insist she keep her voice down on the short bus ride and be respectful of others space by keeping her private matters, including her parenting of her daughter (and I use the term "parenting" very loosely!), private!
Stand up for what you believe in, FIFIB. Not enough people do so - and the world cannot hope to be a better place without the occasional brave individual stepping forward to do so, standing up for others and speaking up when things are wrong (not just inappropriate or different from how we behave)...!
And LGIMV - I'm sorry you once spoke up/stood up in a very difficult situation. Sounds like once bitten twice shy? That one experience has made you cynical to help others in need? It's really such a shame that a single incident could effect you so negatively. I would conversely (in my utopian view of the world, obv) see it as even more reason to stand up for those in need - you probably actually helped that woman out as her guy saw her as siding with him :D
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