We are relocating to Asia and have the option to move to HK or to other places incl. KL and Singapore. HK is most attractive and stimulating, but the air quality is a grave concern, esp. with young children.
My questions are:
- overall, if you were to choose today, would you do it again and still move to HK?
- are there official (i.e. reliable) pollution readers in HK, available on the internet or elsewhere?
- if opting for HK, does living in Stanley/South Side completely address the pollution issue, or only marginally?
Thanks to all for your feedback.
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"- overall, if you were to choose today, would you do it again and still move to HK?"
Yes we would. Overall, the pollution is actually less bad than we thought it would be. Sure, you get days like earlier this week. But those are exceptions. It's not a clean city, that's for sure, but we aren't constantly walking around in a smoggy miasma, especially outside the downtown areas. The city core does have much vehicular exhaust but you get that in most major cities.
The other quality of life factors here (e.g. excellent public transport, affordable domestic help, good schools, warm climate, great hiking, good environment for children) make it a place we really like to live in despite the pollution issues.
It also helps to put things in perspective. If you walk around in central London, for example, the air isn't so clean either. Many cities world wide are dirtier than HK. And compared to, say, Beijing or Shanghai HK is actually pretty clean (and isn't that a lovely thought.)
"- are there official (i.e. reliable) pollution readers in HK, available on the internet or elsewhere?"
Yes. Here: http://www.epd-asg.gov.hk/eindex.php .
"- if opting for HK, does living in Stanley/South Side completely address the pollution issue, or only marginally? "
Completely is a big word but it is more than marginally. There is HUGE difference between South Side and the downtown parts. Sure, the air here can sometimes be bad, but the "brown" days per year on this side can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Of course there are invisible pollutants but nevertheless the air quality on South Side is much better, as you would expect in any suburb compared to the city core. You have both way less traffic and a whole bunch of steep, tall hills between South Side and Victoria Harbour.
I would also add that while I love my South Side, there are other good options such as Sai Kung.
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I was listening to a radio programme last week here in Hk regarding the air pollution - they were saying 3 people a day die and we only have 65 days a year that are within the air pollution limits.
Not sure I would want to bring kids up here on the long term
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Right now - I would say that the pollution is tolerable so I would still choose HK over any other place.
HK has so much to offer. Singapore - I couldn't stand the same hot weather all year round. KL I've heard is rather boring.
Come to HK, choose a place to live that's less polluted, invest in some air purifiers... and then go out and enjoy the things HK has to offer - like water sports, going to the beach, going hiking, going camping. There's loads to do here (on a clear day...)
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As cassy27 says supposedly 3 people die every day from pollution. What I would like to know is how many people die from pollution in Tokyo and London. I would also like to see a geographical breakdown. Where do those people live? In Mong Kok or Sai Kung?
As Slammy says you don't have to live in the miasma. Get out of downtown and you'll find (relatively) clean air.
Ironically, many people with respiratory issues get better in HK because of the high humidity. I used to get quite a raspy throat and dry skin back in Stockholm. Not here. So all in all I think I'm ahead.
"we only have 65 days a year that are within the air pollution limits"
In downtown. One wonders why they don't have pollution monitors in South Side. Stanley for example. I bet the numbers would be different.
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I would most probably not move to HK. But Singapore and KL are not ideal either, for reasons mentioned before: hot year round, boredom etc.
Not that I don't like HK. I'd still pick Hong Kong (even with the air pollution index hitting 500 day in day out all year round) over Stockholm.
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If your moving from a Western country to Asia, you do not have many choices that might fit an easy transition from wherever you are from with a family, i.e. schools, meeting other similar like people, etc. I live on the back of HK Island and the air quality is much better than where I work in Admiralty area. The Air pollution here is serious, but you can avoid it too by staying away from rush hour foot (so many smokers here) and vehicle traffic.
Other than the air, there are many things really good about HK and blow other places in Asia away....
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the only reliable air pollution index for Hong Kong is this one:
http://sn.im/v32sn [Air Pollution Truth Index]
it is referenced against the World Health Organisation Air Quality Standards
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"Not that I don't like HK. I'd still pick Hong Kong (even with the air pollution index hitting 500 day in day out all year round) over Stockholm."
Well, maybe not 500 every day. But I agree with the sentiment. :)
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"That said South Side is a pretty unique combination of expense and inconvenience"
That's an interesting way of putting it. :) Expensive, certainly. Inconvenient? Hardly. My wife gets to work in Sheung Wan in less than 15 minutes in the morning. Try that from the beach suburbs in a typical European or American city.
I will agree that in the places you mention you get more space for your money. Better value is subjective though. It wouldn't be better value for us since we place value on living on the South Side. We wouldn't want to move out to New Territories. Sure, we'd get three times the space but at the expense of closeness to the city and, yes, convenience.
It all depends on what you like.
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roseortulip ... there are 3 main components to the HK air pollution problem:
Traffic, local powerplants and chinese regional air pollution.
You can get away from the traffic pollution if you don't live in Central, Causeway Bay etc.
Moving to the South Side will help with that. However, some very expensive areas there are basically right under the 3 chimneys of a coal fired powerstation with not even 1980ies scrubbing technology installed ... (and the developer dares to call the place " Bel Air" but that's beside the point)
But whatever you do, you will not get away from the regional pollution, which is still the biggest factor in overall air quality.
It can be quite bad, if your kids have asthma you should really think twice.
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"Moving to the South Side will help with that. However, some very expensive areas there are basically right under the 3 chimneys of a coal fired powerstation with not even 1980ies scrubbing technology installed ... (and the developer dares to call the place " Bel Air" but thats beside the point)"
Oh come on. Nothing on South Side is "right under" the Lamma Island power station. It's on the northern side of Lamma Island, which doesn't even face the South Side. I doubt it affects South Side air quality as much as industrial pollution from the Pearl River Delta. Lamma Island air itself is actually pretty nice.
Also, Bel-Air is not on South Side. It is in Cyberport/Wah Fu.
"It can be quite bad, if your kids have asthma you should really think twice."
Agreed. However as I mentioned before, many (but not all) people with asthma actually feel better in HK due to the high humidity.
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Bel Air (which officially is in the Island South District ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_District,_Hong_Kong ) is less than 3 miles to the north east of Lamma Power Station. (look it up on Google Earth) And that is straight downwind during the summer months with the prevailing winds from the south west ... So whilst everybody else gets a break from the China made pollution Bel Air and Pok Fu Lam are still in the soot. I've lived in Bel Air otP for more than 2 years, and you would not believe the amount of black dirt that settled on my balcony railings and windows almost EVERY DAY.
On the really bad days with light winds in a high pressure weather area, when the local and regional pollution really add up you couldn't even see Lamma Island from the window, just one mile away across the Lamma Channel. Everything drowned out in a thick yellow haze. dis.gus.ting.
Stanley, Tai Tam etc. should be better off, of course as they lie not in the main wind direction.
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Yes it is in the Southern district. However it is not traditionally part of "South Side", which I would say starts around at Shouson Hill. Many would not even include that, but start at Deep Water Bay.
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Bausi
14 yrs ago
Apart from air pollution, the biggest problem is finding school places for your kids, very difficult at the moment and that could also determine in which area you have to live.
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yes the air is bad and from what all my friends tell me the schooling situation is even worse-- in terms of money esp.
would i move here again? Well I came for two primary reasons. One is the job seemed great on paper. It isn't. It actually blows chunks. On a daily basis. Hate it in many ways though still grateful to have a job in my field in the current economy. Even though my colleagues are just awful ppl to work with.
I also left to get out of a nasty relationship and living situation -- I knew it'd force me to get out. Escape. That was still a great move.
So in addition to all the objective type of factors, to answer the question of moving you have to think of that type of subjective thing that isnt about the city specifically so much as your past and current life in other, personal ways.
Oh and while the food is great, and it is a great ravel region, HK is also Facking boring after 4 years. And I'm not the mid-levels, central ghetto expat type-- almost never do the typical expat stuff but try to experience the local culture.
But the word culture and HK may be an oxymoron.
Frankly if the pay is the same I'd do KL. Everyone in HK harshes on SINgapore as uber-dull but I could see it being better in some ways-- more English, more food variety, cleaner. And equally boring after awhile.
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Your children should be your main consideration here. And because of that you should think very carefully about living in HK. The air is toxic, and it will affect them in the long run. Don't be fooled into believing what some posters tell you that 'air moves around' so it doesn't matter anyway - tell that to someone in California or Scandinavia! The air is foul. The sea water is full of trash. And the people you'll be working with will generally be oportunistic, money-grabbing individuals.
But hey, if you want to live in a box in HK and pay through the nose, go ahead.
Go to Singapore or KL. Food is better, cheaper. The skies are clear and blue. The people are friendly.
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Schools. No one I know has had a problem getting their kid into a school. It may have been a bit of an ulcer-inducing process but it has always worked out. The well-known private schools are all very good so even if you don't get your first choice it is hardly a disaster.
The important thing is this: As soon as you know you are moving to HK, apply to your top three picks. It's worth spending the money on the deposits even if you then only can pick one of the schools. The waiting lists are indeed long but remember that everyone else is applying to 2-3 schools, so a lot of the kids are on more than one list, making them seem longer than they really are. In addition, lots of people leave every year, clearing up space on the lists.
Private schools are costly, but nowhere near as costly as their equivalent in the UK or US. Then again in those countries public (non-private) schools are an option.
As for HK being boring, that is extremely subjective but I guess any place can become boring unless you keep a good attitude.
As for HK people being only interested in money, I don't know. Certainly money and status play a big role for some people. But for many others money is a means to an end, not a status symbol. I'd rather hang our with the latter. We made more friends in HK in 6 months than we made in the US in 6 years. Hey, maybe we're money-grabbing a***s like everyone else here. ;)
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If your main concern lies on your children and you have a choice, definitely I will suggest Singapore. Cleaner in many ways. Boring? Well just like a relationship, it will become boring after a number of years no matter how excitingly it starts. But you still love your partner, may be in a different way. Air pollution.. as someone suggested it is a regional problem (except part of it casued by vehicles) so some places are better in Hong Kong than others but you cant avoid it 100%. Schools : I dont see the problem coz my child got in straight away in a relatively affordable English medium school (I m local but I lived overseas for a few years). Again depends on where you live and how advance you plan for the admission.
By the way.. if you come today.. air pollution is not bad (^-^). Good luck.
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not really the norm, but if you want to get your child into a top school as the German Swiss International be prepared to fork out 250,000 HK$ per child on a debenture, plus up to 12,000 HK$ per month ...
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That's only GSIS which, perhaps unusually, only has one debenture tier.
Many other schools have a two tier debenture system, with corporate debentures in the multiple hundreds of thousands, but individual debentures seldom over 100k. For example Kellett corporate debentures are 300k, while individual debentures are 60k.
Many companies will make corporate debentures available for transferees. The advantage is that they give priority in the waiting list.
ESF schools, which by all accounts are excellent, have no debentures at all and fees under 60k/year for primary.
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Yes, agree with what many here have said.
We absolutely love the city - and all it has to offer. With that said, we are planning a family and part of this plan, unfortunately, is to leave Hong Kong. I cannot imagine exposing precious, young lung tissue to this toxic crap we breathe.
If we saw the government doing something about it, we may be enticed to stick around. But in our 7 years here, it seems to have only gotten worse.
We love to travel and well realize there are many wonderful cities in the world where we can live - with lots to do/offer - AND BLUE SKIES/CLEAN AIR!!
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Singapore is probably better to raise a family because its safe and boring. Younger people like to go to Hong Kong cos there is more to do :)
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selda
14 yrs ago
Personally i would choose Singapore over HK.
HK is a great place if you are young and single, and don't care too much about your health.
But the cumulative effect of breathing toxic air every day is very serious. I have lived in HK for over 10 years and a few years ago i developed skin allergies, and my immune system is run down. Not only i suffer from more colds than i used to, i feel generally tired and lethargic.
After one month in Europe, i get all my energy back, and feel alert and generally healthier.
We should not underestimate the effects of pollution, especially the less talked about effects, such as increased stress combined with lethargy. I know that pollution has put a big toll on my health, i feel like a yo-yo, one moment i am hyper-active, the next i am tired and lethargic.
I am a teacher and my students seem to suffer from the same symptoms, a lot of them suffer from asthma, and skin conditions. A friend who teaches PE told me that kids here cannot run, their lung capacity is somewhat impaired, and they get tired very easily.
Singapore has beautiful parks, a much nicer waterfront, great restaurants, a more diverse culture, and more colonial buildings than HK. It's not a fast-paced city like HK, but with young kids you have enough on your plate, and I am sure some peace and quiet are preferable to a very stressful environment.
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At the outset, I should say that I LOVE HK. To us, it would the most perfect city in the world, apart from the air quality issue. Anyone who says that it has nothing to offer children lacks imagination. Apart from the obvious Ocean Park (which gets better and better each time we visit) and Disney, there's beaches, walks, boat trips, fantastic clubs etc.
However, after years of doctors visits and copious quantities of medication, we reluctantly decided to move to Singapore. It has taken an age to get used to the slower pace of life, more provincial city feel etc., however, we never need to visit the doctors anymore. We are almost guaranteed to wake up to blue skies and you cannot put a price on that (create seasons by visiting Japan etc. when we need to ski, feel cooler and so on). Because we miss HK so much, we return regularly and without an ounce of exaggeration, at least one of us experiences an asthma attack within a day of landing here. And we lived on the south side and stay there whenever we return. We tried to convince ourselves that we had clear days etc. while we lived here, but we were deluding ourselves.
I am confident that some day things will improve and they will put scrubbers on the power stations, impose emissions limits on the factories in the Delta etc. At that point, we will probably return here. It's a question of how long it takes for the powers that be to realise that breathing clean air is not a luxury. We are just not prepared to play Russian Roulette with our children's health in the interim.
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Dora, just read your reply. We are in the same situation and sadly have to leave HK within the next 12 months due to the air pollution. I have been living here for our 16 years and call it home but the health of our children (both have been diagnosed with asthma recently) is more important. We are contemplating moving to Singapore among other choices but it's a really difficult decision to make. HK is a fantastic city and I hate leaving it.
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If I had a choice of the 3 cities mentioned, personally I love HK but I do have a kid, born here - no health issues yet, but it does bother me. If I was starting from scratch I'd reluctantly choose Singapore, now that I'm middle aged and less interested in a "scene" - but then I wouldn't have our amazing country parks & beaches & hills!
But being less serious, my gran lived to her 90s & was a burden- a few years off her life would have helped everyone!! Shoulda brought her here.... if current 10 yr olds have a life expectancy of 80 or 90, what's a couple of years off that? ;)
Now lambast me for being an irresponsible parent....
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If I had a choice of the 3 cities mentioned, personally I love HK but I do have a kid, born here - no health issues yet, but it does bother me. If I was starting from scratch I'd reluctantly choose Singapore, now that I'm middle aged and less interested in a "scene" - but then I wouldn't have our amazing country parks & beaches & hills!
But being less serious, my gran lived to her 90s & was a burden- a few years off her life would have helped everyone!! Shoulda brought her here.... if current 10 yr olds have a life expectancy of 80 or 90, what's a couple of years off that? ;)
Now lambast me for being an irresponsible parent....
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If it was as simple as a lower life expectancy sistim, I would not necessarily disagree with you. However, the issue is quality of life and having been on nebulisers for approx 2 hours a day for a chunk of our time here, and worse still, watched my children do the same; we had no choice but to leave. I was able to handle my own respiratory problems but just could not bear to watch the children wheeze and cough, especially though the night. It meant they were exhausted during the day and therefore more vulnerable to every bug that was doing the rounds. The light bulb moment for me was the waiting time in my doctor's office twice to 4 times a month. When I looked at the number of people, both young and old being wheeled in with oxygen tanks in tow, I knew it was time to leave. Since we left (over a year ago) I still have not managed to get around to seeing a respiratory specialist in Singapore. Most importantly, I have not needed to.
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It makes us sad to leave HK as well.
My wife is a pediatrician and sees everyday what the air is doing to the children here. If it were up to me, we would be staying - but we must take our future family´s health into account. According to my wife, the health of a child is seriously at jeopardy here. Just not worth it....
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Ed
14 yrs ago
http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/living-in-or-moving-to-hong-kong/threads/120184/air-purifiers/
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this really sums it up nicely, Ed ....
Q: is it wise to move to HK?
A: I know someone who sells air filters so you don't ruin your lungs just as quickly...
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i've been here for 7 years and year on year the pollution gets worse, I first visited here in 1996 and the pollution was no problem. But now you can taste it and your lungs start to feel it after a bad day. As china's economy grows and is expected to grow by at least 8% a year, so will productivity as will the pollution.
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jk333
14 yrs ago
It's bad, I moved here 1 week ago and i cant believe how bad it is. I have just moved from London and grew up in LA in the 80's. I have never seen or felt as bad pollution as this place. I'm an avid jogger and forget it 10 minutes in your lungs are screaming. You can taste it.
Also if you have less than USD$6000 a month forget about renting any descent kind of apartment. I have HK$35'000 a month allowance and cant find anything even halfway decent. I have a 1 year contract, my feelings now are what have i done!! Ok the tax benefits are positive but what’s the use of that when you die from a respiratory disease.
If you have kids dont do it to them, as the above post indicates it's only going to get worse... I can even imagine that!!!!
Night life is good though! specially if your a single guy!!!
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jk333 ... i'm sorry to say that you haven't seen anything, yet. The last few days were actually pretty good as far as HK air goes..
Its a grim reminder for us living here that we're slowly getting used to it...just like the frog in the slowly heated up kettle.
I really get upset when people rave about how great the weather was for outdoor sports and how blue the sky was .... when all they could see was a bit of blue right above them, as straight up is the shortest distance through the sh!t... a lot of HK people really don't know (or forgot) what a proper blue sky looks like, unless they jump on a flight and get above 5000ft ....
by the way, has anyone else noticed that you can smell HK air when you come in on a flight? About 10 minutes before landing it starts so smell sulphury ...
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The government does seem to be moving on the issue, or at least talking about it. The anti-idling law currently being discussed is a good start. California-level emissions would be better.
These things wouldn't solve the pollution coming from the mainland, but they would definitely improve air quality, especially at street level in downtown areas.
Maybe I'm an optimist.
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the idling engines legislation is a farce. It will allow taxis, red and green minibuses to practically continue to as before and even trucks and buses have a 3 minute grace period.
Nothing will change for the better, as long as the business sector has a direct say in what will become law and what not.
(half the seats in the HK Parliament are given to representatives of the various business sectors, only the other half is elected)
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I hadn't seen those conditions. I would agree, then, that it is a bit of a joke.
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- taxis: the first 5 on each stand are allowed to idle their engines unlimited. (initial proposal: only first 2, nontheless this will at least help a little bit at the big transport interchanges)
- green minibus: first 2 of each GMB route serving a bus stop are allowed to idle their engines unlimited.
i.e. on a bus stop with 5 routes you can have 10 idling engines and so on. (initial proposal: only first 2 buses)
- red minibus: the first 2 at each stop, plus each bus with at least 1 passenger on board as well as the 1st bus behind any of these is allowed to idle the engine unlimited. (can you see that working in practice? Initial proposal was: only first 2)
- any tour coach / bus with at least 1 passenger on board can idle their engine unlimited (initial proposal: not exempted)
- any diesel or petrol (not LPG) goods delivery vehicle is allowed to idle their engine for 3 minutes in every 60 minute period
(how are they gonna keep track of that? Every driver will claim that right now it's his 3 min grace period for this hour) (initial proposal was: no exemption)
and that's not even the final draft, as the transport sector demands even more concessions: wait for it...... a general exemption on hot or rainy days!
this is again just a worthless piece of paper so that the government can say: "see, we're working hard on the issues", without having any significant impact on anything ... as usual.
I can already picture the government leaflets that educate drivers on how to circumvent even this weak legislation, just as they did with the racial discrimination law.
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another lovely polluotion free day in HK....NOT... This city is doomed. China will choke this city to death.
90% of this pollution is blowing in from China.
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that's what the government is trying to make us believe.
"See, it's all from China, we can't do anything about it."
Not true though. half of it is home made, right here in HK....
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As flyboyHK says. As I recall, the Clean Air Network, which has done its homework, states that at least half the pollution is local.
Why can't HK clean up its act like California has been doing? Clean cars, clean leafblowers (ok not so big here), clean lorries, clean buses, clean ships and boats. Real idling regulations.
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jk333
14 yrs ago
damn, the pollution just gets worse and worse, i've been here over a week now and every day the pollution is worse. Ive noticed that all Taxi's, buses and mini busses are LPG surely that has made a difference. But everyone i have spoken to tells me that year on year the pollution gets worse. As China's economy grows so does the level of the pollution.
Is there anywhere that i can get accurate readings of the contents of the pollution. I want to know if the financial benefits of living here are worth it. I cant belive property priced here, why would you pay that much to live in this polluted city.
I read this on the BBC
a ratio based on the concentration of pollutants in the air, including sulphur dioxide and lead - was at "record high levels".
People with heart or respiratory problems are advised to stay indoors at an API reading of more than 100; the public is advised to stay indoors at more than 200.
On Monday the API was 453 at one recording station with five other stations marking levels of above 400, the government said
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flyboyHK - you are so right! there is so much that can be done to solve much of the pollution problems right here at home in HK but the government just dont have the ba.ls to do it!
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"...Ive noticed that all Taxi's, buses and mini busses are LPG ..."
this is incorrect...all taxis and the majority of minibuses are LPG, but the serious roadside polluters, KMB/Citybus/FirstBus monsters, are all varying levels of Euro diesel...
some light reading on the subject from our esteemed government (start on p4:
http://www.td.gov.hk/filemanager/en/content_1110/2008%20td%20environ%20report-final-r1.pdf
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Wise words from dipper. We do live "normal" lives here.
BTW I am liking the new "twin axle" double deckers, which are allegedly much more green.
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Of course you can live a normal life here. Air pollution doesn't have an immediate impact, so you can choose to ignore the problem, unless you or your children develop respiratory problems or simply accept a certain health impact as a tradeoff for the $$ you're making here.. Many people do just that, and keep up their outdoor exercise routine even on bad days, even though scientists agree that they're probably doing much more damage than good by doing so.
@ jk333 .. the last few days were quite ok with regard to air pollution. The assumption that limited visibility equals pollution is not always true. During days with very high humidity the tiny water droplets can limit the visibility just as drastically. (This is called "mist" in meteorological terms. However, if the humidity is below lets say 70 to 80% and you still have limited visibility you can be sure it IS pollution, and the meteorologist calls that phenomenon "haze"
Most of the time you will see a combination of the 2 here in HK, with the formation of mist being accelerated by the pollution as it provides condensation nuclei in the air.
So don't panic, it's mainly moisture at the moment, and the rain washes the air nicely, too ;)
The only halfway reliable source of pollution information in HK is Greenpeace's Air Pollution Truth Index, which is referenced against WHO Air Quality Guidelines: (click on the dial for more detailed information)
http://www1.greenpeace.org.cn/camp/api/widget/gpc_api_widget_en.php
Be aware of the fact that the data is from government sources and the limits are the "short term exceedance" limits, which are not meant to be applied day after day. Annual limits are much lower.
@dipper: would you care to explain why it is "clearly nonsense" that you can smell HK as you descend into the HK pollution? Especially since you agree that you could probably smell it in a light aircraft?
@ axptguy38 these new twin axle buses are a good step in the right direction. Other easily recognisable "green" buses are KMB's gold colour buses (EURO III standard) and the greenish-blue "shiny beetleshell" (don't know how else to describe it) colour buses, which are EURO IV.
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jk333
14 yrs ago
flyboyHK According to the Hong kong government enviromentle agency the pollution has been on high all this week., and thats based on an outdated 1997 scale.
You are obviously used to it but my lungs are screaming!
Why would anyone choose to live in this if you could afford not to, i am seriously considering trying to get posted elsewhere!. This is hideous!
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It is grim. KL not much better. SG is much better air quality and every day life quality. I don't get this "SG is boring" thing? People here in HK tend to get really defensive and snobby about HK. They think it is the best and in fact the expats are worse than the locals at bigging it up.
HK is fine, it is easy to live here for various reasons.. But it is not as "Amazing" as people try to kid themselves it is.
If you are going to come. Plan well, invest wisely and get out with full pockets and fond memory's. Not empty pockets and ruing organs!
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i think trading off health -- we *might* well be talking about years off your life or some nasty cancer -- for $$ is twisted.
I'm basically doing the same, so I'm not judging anyone.
In addition to toxic air HK in my experience is a quite stressful and frustrating work environment and not a terribly social place.
If I could get an approximately equal, even comparable job in singapore or somewhere else in SE Asia or even China I'd be gone. Yes China air can be even worse than here but it has other advantages.
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I am curious what the original has decided? Dare she bring her kids here after reading this thread she started??
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I am curious what the original has decided? Dare she bring her kids here after reading this thread she started??
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Thanks Ed for posting this article today:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-22/hong-kong-anti-pollution-figure-hedley-leaving-for-cleaner-air.html
Shocking, isn´t it?
During my 6+ years in HK, I have seen more non-smokers with throat / lung cancer than imaginable - including 2 local women in their late 30s at my office that have since passed. I wonder if there are stats on this?
We are out of here......very soon. Money is good, but the trade off just isn´t worth it.
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There is no easy answer to whether it is wise, but one will be in a state of denial to claim that air pollution is not a problem. It is almost like asking why people still smoke cigarettes given that they are bad for health.
It depends on how much you value your health. Ask yourself, if someone paid you to breathe in air that has pollutant concentration that exceeds the WHO standards, how much must you be paid before you will do it? Is it $0.01 per breath or $1 per breath? Will this amount change if you have to take in 10,000 breaths at one go (which is probably less than a day of bad air)? Will this amount again change if your child has to do the same.
On average, a person takes in 10-15 breathes a minute. More than half the time, the air in HK is graded unhealthy. How many puffs of a cigarette does a smoker take in a day?
You get the point. To some, they make a lot more money in HK and it is worth it, or they purchase expensive air purifiers to mitigate. To others, it is a different choice altogether.
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Good point dipper. I think this place has to be considered one of the best places to live, BUT it is the air pollution trade off we have to consider.
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It makes me laugh that many people think that this polution in made in Hong Kong. Almost all public transport is LPG inc the buses and Taxis. The cars mostly modern and pretty economical. The average yearly KM is under 10k.
Ok i admit the power station pollute but they are not responsible for this. over 75% of this pollution is coming from the mainland, just look at GZ or even SZ. It is terrible.
Tell me when China has holidays IE long new year, labor day ect why is the air clear in HK?
I have 2 rental properties in HK and both have been vacated this year by Expats who could not put themselves and families lives at risk any more. In my opinion this will only get worse. If China's economic growth of 8.5% per year, as it has to or this will crash continues.
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Nosey - I think you will be surprised....it's not only China, HK could do much to reduce emmissions. Road side emmissions are horrific!
HK's air pollution is mainly contributed by motor vehicles and power plants. The two greatest challenges are local street-level pollution and regional smog. Diesel vehicles, particularly trucks, buses and light buses, are the main source of street-level pollution. The every day smog is caused by a combination of pollutants mainly from motor vehicles, industry and power plants in Hong Kong and the Pearl River Delta.
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JJchan,
I'm sorry I do not believe it, this is more Hong kong lies, if you travel into China as I do a few times a week the pollution is Horrific. If you have a neighbor that is the world’s factory, you will be affected. As we are here!!!
There are 15 times more cars in London and the average mileage is far higher than here, and the pollution in London is nothing compared to here. LA has over 20 times more cars and Pollution there is also nothing like here!
Pollution will only be getting worse here!
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JJChan, one of the points that nosey-parker made was:
Tell me when China has holidays IE long new year, labor day etc why is the air clear in HK?
I notice that your reply doesn't really address this, but it's is true. Within a day or two of the start of the sort of holiday that causes factories on the Mainland to knock off work, the air quality in HK improves dramatically. Every time.
HK pollution is not much more than the icing on the cake w/respect to what we're getting from the Mainland but neither those in the environmental movement nor those in local govt can afford to acknowledge this.
HK leaders are terrified of being denounced as splittist and so can never speak loudly and frankly about the source of the bulk of the miasma enshrouding the city. Local environmentalists, reasonably enough, don't want to end up in black prisons, mental hospitals, etc., so crossing the border and protesting over there is out.
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There is no doubt that the pollution is comming from China, absolutely YES! but a huge amount is comming from HK. Take a look at the Clean the Air website and have a walk along Repulse Bay Beach Road past all the buses spewing out filth with their engines running as I do on most days. There is no excuse as to why we can not curb some of the pollution in HK and no it is not just icing on the cake it is 70% more!
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According to the Environmental Protection Department. air quality has improved since 2006.
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=11&art_id=97643&sid=28063902&con_type=1
If this is true, great. Just hope things continue to improve then.
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Of course it did improve in 2009. Remember, we had a massive economic crisis, and a lot of factories in the delta did stop to operate. But they're back up and and smoking now....
And of course the politicians will attribute this improvement to their efforts in cleaning up pollution.
The year 2009 will be used in these statistics for a long time: look, how good we are.
It's a publicity stunt, as usual.
Remember what happened about 2 years ago, when they noticed they can't meet the 2010 emission targets (55% reduction of RSP and 40% reduction of SO2, based on the 1997 levels)
They claimed that the 1997 levels were actually much worse that what they had previously determined in the proposal, and based on these "new" much worse 1997 base levels they were much closer to achieve the proposed percentual reductions (still miles off target though)...
And this is NOT a conspiracy theory, these are HK government statements.
smoke and mirrors ...
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selda
14 yrs ago
A lot of local people prefer to bury their head in the sand and pretend that everything is fine...they just turn up their air-con and they are only happy when it's so cold that you have to wear a jumper....they mistakenly believe that the cooler the air the cleaner. They never make the connection between over-reliance on air-conditioning and pollution. They don't see the coal-fired power plants that produce the energy they waste.
Local media never devote much attention to pollution, and when i pointed out to a friend whose husband was dying of lung cancer despite never smoking in his life that the air we breathe causes cancer, she looked at me in disbelief and said "i don't think so, otherwise the doctors would tell us". In one year i know of 5 people who died of lung cancer in their 40s and 50, none of them smoked.
Local doctors don't alert people, the government hides the pollution index in the weather observatory website so well that most people who visit the website will not see it.
And let's not forget that the pollution index is outdated, and when it tells you that the pollution at roadside level is "high", it should read "very high". Basically we are breathing harmful air everyday.
The ignorance is so widespread that drivers protest against the government's proposal to fine those who keep their engines running while waiting. They believe that running their air-con is their god-given right, even if that means gassing pedestrians.
The government has done a lot of anti-smoking campaigns, but nothing about the effects of vehicles' pollution. So now you see 'no smoking' signs near the beach, next to a line of tourist buses that spew out black fumes.
Our city is so dense that it would make sense to pedestrianize most alleys and streets where there is not enough ventilation due to the canyon effect caused by very tall buildings. Instead we have double deckers and diesel trucks using those streets.
Only electric trams and underground trains should serve those congested areas. Running diesel buses in the inner city is criminal.
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It's certainly got worse here over the years. I certainly worry for my kids even though I'm in one of the supposed "cleanest" areas. Year after year we see that coloured haze and it's not just being able to see it, you can smell and taste it.
I'll probably give it one more year myself and if there is no improvement I'll be off to Singapore because I value the health of my kids.
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Point of order. "Diesel" is per se not dirty. New diesel cars, buses and lorries in Western Europe are as clean as their petrol counterparts (very very clean). Old diesels, which never had to meet emissions standards, on the other hand, can be very dirty.
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so what are the "cleanest" areas of HGK to live, air-wise? I love the city/center (am in cwb) but the air is horrid here of course. may want to move next year.
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Cleanest areas on the Island are Repulse Bay, Stanley, Red Hill, Tai Tam.
Off island South Lantau is not bad, as well as many other parts of the NT.
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"Posted by nosey-parker
It makes me laugh that many people think that this polution in made in Hong Kong. Almost all public transport is LPG inc the buses and Taxis. The cars mostly modern and pretty economical. The average yearly KM is under 10k.
Ok i admit the power station pollute but they are not responsible for this. over 75% of this pollution is coming from the mainland, just look at GZ or even SZ. It is terrible."
i am not surprised at the lack of awareness and inclination to blame others among the typical HK person.
If one only reads the Gov announcements, then one probably has never come across any decent research on pollution. However, it does exist. A simple look at Wikipedia under Air Pollution in Hong Kong shows quite some research references.
Just taking one of them, coming from HKUST (http://www.civic-exchange.org/eng/upload/files/200703_HKAirPollution.pdf), shows:
- local air pollution is responsible for 56% of total air pollution
- regional air pollution (which means PRD based) causes 36%
among the local pollution factors are mainly two:
- cars and especially trucks which are operating on sub-standard engines/exhaust systems
- the two large electricity generators run by CLP
the car/truck issues cannot be solved because of the hk political situation where these constituencies wield a too large influence relative to their economic importance or relative to total population
the electricity issue cannot be solved because...guess who owns CLP...
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mayo
14 yrs ago
"Cleanest areas on the Island are Repulse Bay, Stanley, Red Hill, Tai Tam."
If this is true It certainly isn't visibly so. Where I live I have both a habourview and a southbay view and when one is smoggy the other is equally so.
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'cleanest' may mean 'in terms of roadside emissions'...the notion that any one area of HK is cleaner overall than another is ridiculous...the suspended particulate blows in every direction, and Southside is as grey overhead as Tin Shui Wai...don't kid yourself
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Certainly the smog can be on both sides. But there's no way there are as many roadside emissions on Southside. Stand on Des Voeux Road Central, then stand on Repulse Bay Road. Which seems cleaner to you?
Then again, I would love for the Environmental Department to put a couple of monitoring stations on Southside.
"over 75% of this pollution is coming from the mainland, just look at GZ or even SZ. It is terrible.""
Sure, but this doesn't mean the 25% remaining can't be improved. Minibuses may be LPG but most "big buses" are old diesels, as are the lorries.
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Sadly, the Southside is just as bad as anywhere else - It may have less roadside emissions marginally than Central but most of us don't live in Central. Just walk down by the beach each day in Repulse Bay as I do and breath in the muck that comes out of those old buses and if you had your eyes shut you would think you were in Central. It is disgusting! Agree though axpatguy more should be done in HK to improve the situation, we can't blame it all on PRC.
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Agreed that those buses on Beach Road are horrible. If only we had idling regs... Real ones.
Many new cars can keep the A/C on to a degree for 15-30 minutes after the engine has been turned off, just off battery and residual engine heat. Where are those solutions for HK buses and taxis?
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nbv
14 yrs ago
We'd move to Singapore in a heartbeat if we could. We love HK, but I am finding it hard to live with the guilt about what living here is doing to my children (who are developing asthma, etc.)
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To be fair, most of Repulse Bay is ok. Beach Road is the bad spot with all the idling buses. There's also the HKIS school rush but that's only for two rather brief periods in the morning and afternoon.
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copy & paste from Bloomberg.com
Hong Kong Air Pollution Has Two Worst Quarters Ever
By Debra Mao
Hong Kong’s air pollution was the worst on record during the past two quarters, sparking regular government health warnings and growing discontent among the city’s 7 million people.
Roadside pollution was either “very high” or “severe” 13.6 percent of the time from January to March and 23.8 percent of the time in the October-December period last year, compared with a previous high of 13.4 percent in the fourth quarter of 2008, Environmental Protection Department data show. The oldest quarterly air pollution index figures showed it breaching “very high” levels 1.9 percent of the time in the third quarter of 1999.
Then-Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa declared in his 1999 policy address that fighting pollution would be a priority. Eleven years later, it has gotten worse, at times forcing schools to cancel sporting events and stirring concerns it could harm companies’ efforts to recruit overseas workers to the city.
“There aren’t too many other financial hubs where you have to check the pollution index before deciding whether to run outside or on the treadmill,” said Ben Hoad, a sales trader from Australia who’s lived in Hong Kong for five years.
Hong Kong’s Air Pollution Index reached a “very high” 102 today in Causeway Bay, a congested shopping area east of the main business district.
Public Discontent
Hong Kong people are the most dissatisfied in the world with their air quality, according to a Gallup survey of adults in 153 countries. Seventy percent of the city’s residents expressed the highest level of dissatisfaction with air quality. The next most disgruntled population was in Chad, where 59 percent of adults were highly dissatisfied with their air, as well as water and other basics, said Gallup research director Bob Tortora.
Singapore had the lowest dissatisfaction with air quality, 3 percent, according to the survey released April 22, the 40th anniversary of Earth Day.
Information Officer Y.F. Chau of the Environmental Protection Department acknowledged the recent rise in roadside air pollution. While Chau said he could not provide an immediate explanation for the increase, he said the government is taking measures to fight back including vehicle emission controls.
Health Warnings
The government classifies readings above 100 as “very high.” When it’s that level at general stations, the government discourages people with heart and respiratory diseases from outdoor activity and physical exercise. With readings above 100 at roadside stations, officials urge people with heart or respiratory diseases to avoid staying in heavy traffic areas.
“Studies show that if you have long-term exposure to fine particulates generated from diesel engines, then your risk of death from a respiratory disease rises over 10 percent,” said Wong Tze Wai, a professor in public health at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. Wong has researched the health effects of air pollution for more than 20 years.
At levels above 200, the pollution is called “severe” and the warnings apply to the general public. Pollution is often cited as an issue for people thinking of moving to Hong Kong.
“It gets brought up in every conversation I have with people we try to bring out here,” said Yash Rana, a partner at law firm Goodwin Procter. Rana moved to Hong Kong a year and a half ago and installed an “industrial strength” air-filtering system in his home for his asthmatic daughter.
Topping Pollution Index
Hong Kong’s pollution index rose to the top reading of 500 at 10 of 14 monitoring stations on March 22 as winds from sandstorms in northern China carried particles to Hong Kong. Pollution had never been so high in the city.
Alexis Lau, an assistant atmospheric math professor at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, said this year’s increased frequency of high roadside pollution had nothing to do with sandstorms.
“It has to do with the high nitrogen dioxide,” said Lau, referring to the light brown gas produced by vehicle engines. Lau periodically analyzes concentration levels published by the government.
The Hong Kong and Guangdong province governments released a report April 29 on air quality of the Pearl River Delta in 2009, citing lower levels of sulphur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and breathable suspended particles compared with previous years.
Scrapping Old Buses
“There is absolutely no reason to rejoice,” wrote Joanne Ooi, chief executive officer of independent advocacy group Clean Air Network, which sends e-mail alerts when the index rises above 100. “What matters is the level of pollution to which people are actually exposed to at street level,” Ooi wrote in response to the Hong Kong-Guangdong report.
Since 1999, the Hong Kong government has implemented control measures to reduce vehicle emissions, Chau wrote in an e-mailed statement April 30.
In March, Secretary for the Environment Edward Yau said Hong Kong may accelerate replacement of old buses, change transit routes and set up low-emission zones to cut pollution. Old buses are expected to be eliminated from city roads by 2019, according to Yau. In April, the department submitted a proposed law to Hong Kong’s Legislative Council requiring drivers to switch off their engines while their vehicles are idling.
“Actions are in hand to promote the use of electric vehicles, ban idling vehicles with running engines and to implement a statutory specification for using biodiesel as motor vehicle fuel,” Chau wrote.
Hong Kong lawmakers will debate a motion May 5 on improving air quality, urging the government to improve early-warning signals for heavy pollution and to make specific guidelines for closing schools and suspending outdoor work when it hits severe levels. Legislator Kam Nai-wai wants Hong Kong to adopt more stringent air-quality guidelines and to be more prompt about taking high-emission buses off the streets.
“If it gets much worse, I think people will leave,” said Rana. “And you might have to pay more money to get people to come here and replace those people.”
To contact the reporter on this story: Debra Mao in Hong Kong at dmao5@bloomberg.net
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"Hong Kong people are the most dissatisfied in the world with their air quality, according to a Gallup survey of adults in 153 countries. Seventy percent of the city’s residents expressed the highest level of dissatisfaction with air quality. ...Singapore had the lowest dissatisfaction with air quality, 3 percent, according to the survey released April 22, the 40th anniversary of Earth Day."
That's gotta sting an already insecure government that blubbers and stutters whenever SG is mentioned in comparison to HK...
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jk333
14 yrs ago
Must admit the last few days have been good, no smell in the air, no stinging eyes, no pain in my chest or throat. Not bad been here nearly a month and the 4 days have been bearable!
Is this the best i can hope for.
I would love to know the rates of asthma among the young, but from what i gather all detrimental information is hidden by the corrupt HK government
oops just looked out my window, the Pollution is back. On with the face mask AGAIN!!!
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For asthma rates talk to an allergist. They'll tell you. Then again they might tell you that there is more irritated airways stuff than asthma. Not that this is much better really.
Furthermore, many sufferers of asthma feel better in HK because of the humidity, so this would "mask" some of the pollution figures.
Re: face masks. Those paper ones do very little good against pollution. The ones that help are motorcycle/bicycle masks with replaceable filters.
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jk333
14 yrs ago
Another day living in an exhaust pipe! I have no energy , my throat has been sore for weeks. I always feel short of breath.... Is this normal or will the pollution subside.
From what i am hearimng it is getting worse every month!
I even saw government posters yesterday warning people not to exercise out doors!
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Honestly the last week has been pretty good for HK. I wouldn't expect it to be very much better than now.
Summer tends to be better because of prevailing winds from other directions than the Pearl River Delta.
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jk333
14 yrs ago
Well if thats the best to hope for! Today Friday 14th May is another terrible day, you cant see over the harbour to kowloon, and the smell and taste of the air is terrible!
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South Side is also nice and sunny with clear air.
It should be noted that while pollution certainly plays a large part in creating haze, high humidity is also a factor.
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I'm not sure exactly where you are axptguy but in Repulse Bay the sun is shining, lots of fog but having been down Beach Road this morning with all the buses/cars and their idling engines I think I will have to say pollution rather than fog. I haven't noticed any clear air as yet and as for clean air forget it!
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I am in Repulse Bay. It looks hazy. Very humid. Beach Road is of course always blech in the summer afternoons. There's a huge difference between points higher up the hill in RB and points by the beach. Also this is all very subjective since the EPD hasn't even seen fit to install sensors on South Side. Perhaps they fear what the readings might be?
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jk333
14 yrs ago
Dipper, that blue you see must be the Samsung sign, there's no blue today just yellow grey pollution pumped in from China.
I've lived in LA, New York London and Paris. I have never at any time seen or experienced pollution even half as bad as it is here!
You will have to wait some time to get realistic life expectancy stats. the effects of this acrid air we are all breathing will take years to show what it is doing, but one things for sure it will only be getting worse especially if the great factory we call China keeps growing without any care to its people!
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i just came back from Singapore ... a friendly reminder of what clean air looks and smells like and what blue skies look like ... we're talking not just a small circular spot of pale blue-ish sky right above, no, proper blue blue and blue right down to the horizon. the HORIZON, dear HK people, is that line where sky and land/water are supposed to meet ... you just don't get to see it in HK ...
It's a crying shame if you hear people here talk about how they had blue skies only because there was a blue patch right overhead (think about it, that's the shortest distance through the pollution layer) ...nothing but delusions. Go to Thailand or other similar places if you need a reminder what a blue sky looks like, and until then please don't tell me you saw one ...
*rant over*
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What a perfect day to day. Shame it is so rare. You forget how small Victoria Harbour is. Most of the time you cant even see the 1/2 mile accross it.
Shame it takes a huge rain storm and the winds to be blowing towards China to get a single clear day!
When the wind blows in from China its like Hell on earth in Hong Kong!
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Singapore Beats Hong Kong to Remain Asia’s Most Livable City
May 25, 2010, 7:30 PM EDT
By Le-Min Lim
May 26 (Bloomberg) -- Singapore retained its ranking as the Asian city with the best quality of life, while Hong Kong lags rival financial hubs as it struggles with air pollution, according to a survey by Mercer Consulting.
Singapore ranks 28 among 221 cities, Tokyo is at 40 and Hong Kong is placed 71, the list shows. The cities are rated on 10 factors including infrastructure, political and social environments, and access to medical care. Hong Kong scored poorly on health concerns, said Cathy Loose, a Tokyo-based Mercer officer who helped compile the list.
“The government hasn’t done very much to introduce green measures or reduce pollution,” said Loose, in an interview. The list serves as a compensation guide for expatriate relocation.
Hong Kong’s air pollution was the worst on record during the past two quarters, sparking regular government health warnings. To address the problem, the government introduced a bill in April proposing a ban on idling engines among other steps.
Singapore lags Hong Kong only on measurements of personal freedom and media censorship, said Loose. Mercer is a unit of Marsh & McLennan Cos.
Hong Kong’s effort to cut pollution and protect the environment trails even that of Havana and ranks just above Damascus, the list shows. Overall, Vienna retains the top spot as the world’s best city to live in.
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Apart from the "onlys" mentioned by dipper, those surveys are pretty subjective and don't really give a definite answer. Any given person may or may not agree with the criteria.
"To address the problem, the government introduced a bill in April proposing a ban on idling engines among other steps."
And I see the spin is working.
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HK, KL and Singapore. Quite a difficult choice. Now I've been living in HK for 16 years and have more or less gone local - I'm a Brit and I'm putting my kids through local schools - but each of the cities has real advantages and disadvantages. I think the important thing to do is to decide what you are looking to achieve. How about this for a quick check list?
Making money: 1) HK (only if accomodation is provided or you're willing to live in a much smaller place) 2) Singapore 3) KL
Tax: 1) HK 2) Sing 3) KL
Pace of life: 1) KL 2) Singapore 3) HK
Stress: 1) KL 2) Sing 3) HK
Travel: 1) HK/Sing 3) KL
House size relative to price: 1) KL 2) Sing 3) HK
Mixing with the locals: 1) Sing (most speak English and many have good senses of humour) 2) HK (quite difficult to mix outside expat/overseas Chihense and well-educated locals) 3) KL (don't really know to be honest)
Political freedom: 1) HK (streets ahead) 2) KL 3) Sing
Freedom of the press: 1) HK (again by miles) 2) KL 3) Sing
Pollution: Difficult. If if they are burning the forest in Indonesia then Sing and KL much much worse. For, HK it is industrial pollution from poor quality electricity generation and cars but they are doing something about it and, although I'm in a minority, I positive longer term on HK.
Safety: 1) HK/Sing 3) KL
Transport: 1) Sing (because of the road pricing) 2) HK 3) KL
Greenery: 1) Sing/KL 3) HK
Govt efficiency: 1) HK/Sing 3) KL
Weather: 1) HK (you get seasons) 2) KL 3) Sing
Schools: 1) Sg (I think you could send your kids to a local school and they would be able to learn in English - though not sure) 2) HK 3) KL. HK schooling is expensive or difficult to find a place if you want the kids to be taught in English. If they are very young, you could put them into local Cantonese speaking schools and end up with bilingual children who can read and write Chinese.
Flexibility: 1) HK 2) KL 3) Sing
Estate management: 1) Hk 2) Sing 3) KL a poor last
Arts: 1) HK (no censorship) 3) Sing/KL
Hong Kong also doesn't have the death penalty and a completely free currency.
If you are free-wheeling, have an opinion, go-getting and you're not overly-concerned about 'lifestyle' then it has to be HK. If you want a gentle pace of life, a greater variety of cultures, a large home with a garden and you don't mind roughing it just a little bit more than in HK or Sing - then KL's for you. Something in between, then Sing.
You can live extremely cheaply in all 3 places if you eat local food and your accomodation is sorted out.
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I think I have mentioned it before. Love Hong Kong best place in the world me thinks BUT the air is digusting and maybe 28cars is just in need of some new specs. I live South Side and oh my very few clear days and as for the Peak I am there regularly and same thing. YUK YUK! as for the life expectancy figures - pure and utter rubbish, who knows what this filth will be doing to our health in the long term. They may of been correct for some years ago well maybe 8 years ago when I last remembered clear skys.
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Like it or not, people spreading out has never to my knowledge happened on any significant scale in recorded history. It never will unless there is a really MAJOR disaster. Like, say, a plague that kills ½ the population or a big asteroid strike. Spreading out is bad for the economy.
Stop the growth and you might as well give up altogether. You can't have the cake and eat it.
Not judging. I would love to have better air. But people spreading out is not a viable solution.
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vak
14 yrs ago
Based on a survey conducted by Lonely Planet with inputs from travel journalists, staff, readers and other participants HK came 12th while Singapore was 25th and KL was ranked 52nd amongst the Worlds Top 200 cities. The huge gap was due to the fact that the competetion was amongst 200 cities from the WORLD from 230 countries of the world and not just ASIA. Yes they did look into all aspects including pollution, history, a WOW factor, diversity, crime rates etc etc.
The main WEAKNESSES going against HK in the survey were, Noise/Water/Air Pollution, Crowds, overexcited airconditioners and Expensive Beer while the GOLD STAR was for Business.
28cars wherever you see high rise the levels of pollution will be higher and specially on days with no breeze due to air locks between buildings and the high density of people per sq meter.
Just stand at any overbridge on Gloucester road in the morning and see the no of EMPTY double deckers between the last stretch from Elizabeth house to Exchange square. The problems have worsened since the govt privatised the bus services. The bus companies probably make more money from ad revenues of the TV screens than passengers.
I feel some NGO or University should conduct a survey based on facts and realtime situations rather than heresay. The survey should include the age, general background of the participants and list the number of Doctor visits per year that person made for Respiratory Infections. It should also include where the person lives, works , how they commute and how much exercise they do per week. How many hours per day the persons spend indoors and how many outdoors. I have not seen anything in terms of a comprehensive result other than general complaints that the city is polluted. The health of a minibus driver sitting near idling buses will be different from a street sweeper on the PEAK even if they both lived in Mongkok.
I think it would make an interesting project for some university or school students.
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I think much of the problem is the path China has decided to follow regarding the handling of these large numbers of people. Instead of seeing the obvious flaws in the 'car culture' countries like the US and Canada, and developing more efficient mass transit alternatives for moving huge numbers of people around, they've decided to emulate the freeways and resulting gridlock/pollution as the middle class in PRC becomes more affluent and all of a sudden 'needs' a car to get around...IMHO they really screwed up with their shortsightedness, missing a real chance to become leaders in the world in terms of mass transit, when their own 'car culture' had not yet developed....now they're trying to right the wrong with high speed rail, and yet continue to pave thousands of kms of freeway every year....
as madtown says, a more geographically diverse allocation of manufacturing centres, linked by efficient transportation could lessen the severity of pollution in places like the PRD...
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well, if air pollution is all you are concerned with, i can vouch that S'pore is the best amongst all 3. been to all 3 and lived in singapore and hk. But in terms of quality of life, and what you can do/will get to do, i think singapore loses out by a fair bit.
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Cautious optimism at the very best...
There are a couple of advocacy groups but while getting airtime they haven't managed to achieve much except increased awareness. The government does talk a lot, but again, action is scarce. Bla bla bla green Hong Kong bla bla but that's it.
There is the whole idling debate, where taxi drivers are up in arms about the proposed law to cut idling time to a few minutes. Apparently they have health concerns if they have to have the A/C off. Singapore taxi drivers who have to live with an anti-idling regulation are just fine though, and it is on average hotter there. Buses also idle for hours at tourist spots like Beach Road in Repulse Bay.
The thing is, vehicular pollution is just one aspect. Industrial pollution from the Pearl River Delta is a big deal, especially in winter. It's hard to affect a country where environmental concerns are only on the agenda when the rest of the world happens to be looking on, like during the Olympics or the World Expo.
The major issue in China, as I see it, is that in the West environmental concerns started being voiced decades ago by strong advocacy groups. In China grassroots groups are seen with great suspicion and can't rise to the same level of power. And so the populace remains uneducated and just "accepts".
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And on that note http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/07/13/jaime.lerner.curitiba.brazil/index.html?hpt=Sbin#fbid=J5fGk49DFy0
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very interesting thread, but makes us worried about moving to HK (with a young child)...I heard that NT has (comparatively) better quality of air, so please can anyone live there share your views/experience on this? and where would you recommend to live in NT?
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You mention that you have a young child.. my advice to you is think very carefully before you move here. The pollution here is vile and the air is filthy for most of the year. Living in NT is not going to make the slightest bit of difference. Who knows how you child will react to the pollution here, many suffer with all sorts of illnesses and others don't. Goodness knows what the long term effects will be, it really does not bear thinking about.
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Thanks JJChan and madtown - yes air pollution is a big issue and it does put us off going to HK, and if we ever decide to go, then it will be short-term. Out of my curiosity, is neither of you living in HK anymore?
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Yes, home for me. Hong Kong is the most fabulous place to live, however, as said the pollution is dire and it is the only thing that will make me leave. Have watched many friends move over the years due to the pollution. All very sad. I have just driven past the lamma chimneys and they are now merrily pumping out vast amounts of smoke.
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I am off as soon as I can organise it. I have just had a discovery trip to KL and in my view it is better overall for family life and cheaper.
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Great to find out cowleyp has the same view as me. I grow up in HK. Lived 4 years in Santa Barbara, 4 years in Singapore, about one year in Tokyo. Hk is just worse of all if your are not super rich. I mean super rich, not just rich.
You need to be super rich to put children into good international school.
You need absolutely super super super rich to get a decent house with ground space in the good area.
You only need to be super rich to get a good apartment in good area.
You need at least rich to pay for all the good things people mentioned in this forum.
You can live in super rich places like the Peak/Stanley to breath better air and yet get to work in Central or go shopping in Causeway Bay very fast. You superrichness allow you to get to these place in 10 min. Your driver wait for you. You don't wait.
Air pollution is horrible. After 4 years in Singapore, I return to HK and that smell of Causeway Bay is still sticking in my head. I can't fell it again if I go back to Causeway Bay today. But I am sure if I travel to Singapore today, I will tell the difference again.
But many people like to come to HK. Because they are super rich. Money can compensate for many things. You don't have to squeeze yourselve in a tiny restaurant but rather visit a super rich country club restaurant if you are super rich.
You don't have to drink HK water if you are super rich that you can bought whatever mineral water to wash vegatables or to wash yourself. (Many Japanese do that.)
There is just one thing you can't buy. The Air.
So, the only thing expat complaint about is usually the air pollution. In fact, they complaint to the HK government. The HKG people are just jerks. They would not act if just local citizen complants about air quality, but when the foreigners/riches/powers complain, they wave their tails.
Now, what if you are not super rich. Ok let's see.
(btw, people on an expat forum may come from all countries, right? Expat from some africa, and south asia countries such as pakistan, no offence, living in TST's Chun Hing Mansion and yuen long are not super rich but rather very poor financially.)
You might be living in New Territories, not to live a larger space but because limited budget, you can only afford a not so big apartment or even village house and than travel an hour to work in the HK island taking firstly a train and than a tunnel bus. You can tell your friends that air is better in New Territories, just to save your faces.
But that is true. The place I live in NT has ZERO air pollution.
You can eat in those very horribly dirty wet market food court for cheap food.
You can look up to the sky when you walk. -----> Ha Ha. Do you know why?
Ha Ha, still don't know?
Ok. Hong Kong's streets are horrible. In many places, they use this type of sewage system all over the places. you will walk over many sewage covers if you are not super rich. Now, the sewage covers have a lot of BIG holes. You can SEE inside the sewages very easily through the holes. The wet markets and horrible dirty hawkers and other horrible dirty people throw all kinds of oilly stuff in it (I can't describe it any more). If you don't look up to the sky, you might be looking down and you might see what it inside. Oh God. I don't want to think about it anymore. But for your info., I am telling you. Get super rich and have someone drive you instead of walking. Some the next time a rat pop up out of the sewage hole will be smashes by your ferrari, ready for a meat ball sphgattei. can't spell it.
Note that I am not saying HK is bad. HK is very good for the super rich.
And HK is very bad for those who are not super rich. Got it?
Now, about singapore. Singapore is NOT humid. Singapore is NOT hot.
Got it?
I lived there 4 years.
Singapore is NOT humid. Singapore is NOT hot.
I seldom use air cond. in Singapore. I just once in a while for the extra comfort.
I never use the dehumidfier in Singapre. I ship it from HK to Sing. and then back to HK. Never used. And there are a lot of swimming pools in singapore for easy cool down. Sing. car is expensive but taxi is cheap. I didn't have a problem without a car. But in HK, without a car is a problem. you will be squeezing yourself in train or buses.
In Singapore, you don't have to super rich to have very good accomodation. Just look at the design of the latest semi-public public housing.
In Singapore, you certainly have good air. Only slightly disturbing if you are on orchard rooad.
I will be visiting KL next month in an attempt to move there. It is even cheaper than Singapore. Unlike some expats who are sent by company to a place, my income does not change anywhere I live. There is no compensation to me for the more expensive housing in HK. So, the same amount of money to get the best out of it is my way.
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