Posted by
Shade
14 yrs ago
Has anyone got any experience on useful advice.
I moved into a building and for a few months everything seemed to be fine unti one day I saw my next door neighbour burning "hell notes" right outside my door and the flames were really high. I was choking with all the smoke and ask her to stop, but she carried on burning paper. When I got into my flat, the air was all smoky and smelt awful. I again asked her to stop and tried to push the red bucket away from my door so it was not burning the door. Unfortunately, the bucket fell over and the old Chinese woman started shrieking and nearly assaulted my friend with a metal bar. The Police were called, but she still continues to smoke out the corridor in the building twice a month. In addition, the air is always being made putrid with incense sticks burning from her wall and sometimes she puts lighted candles all over the floor too.
I did send an email to the Management Company explaining what happened, as the Poice told me that if the Deed of Covenant should prohibit burning of paper indoors. But they just ignored my message.
Yesterday, the air in my flat became so putriid again as another neighbour on next to my flat again started burning huge quanitities of hell money and I experienced a lot of difficulty breathing. I called the Police and Fire Brigade and and the Fire Service called the Parmaemdics. They gave me oxygen and I slowly felt better.
I again wrote to the Management Company and this time they replied and said they would put signs up in the lift.
How do I stand with respect to this matter and what else can I do? I am frightened that when I am out burning cinders will get into my flat and could ignite a fire.
Has anyone experienced this scenario?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Smoked Out!
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Hell notes? Hell, move away and find another flat with a friendlier neighbourhood.. happened to us before and nobody just gave a s*it about it. I guess the locals consider 'em bad luck if the practice is rid off -- you know, superstition (we even got cigarette butts!)..
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Some of the other comments have been on target.
First, if at all possible, I would move. It's unlikely that you're going to be able to talk sense into superstitious people who are members of a completely different culture. Just through the actions that you've taken so far, you've probably caused them to lose face in some way (from their perspective) and they're determined not to give an inch.
If moving is not convenient or would pose too great a hardship to bear, then I would document absolutely everything and then go to a lawyer and explore your options. Neighbor problems have a tendency to get very ugly.
Each day before you leave your apartment, start recording video (with a phone or digital camera or something else handheld with a strap that can't be knocked out of your hand) and keep recording until you're some distance from the front door of your building. When you return home, start recording before you get to your building and don't stop until you're safely in your home with the door/gate locked. In accordance with Murphy's law, the one day that you aren't recording is the day that some rough-looking people are going to be waiting for you in front of your apartment door.
Try to get a recording of the offending neighbors starting/tending the fires and refusing your reasonable and polite requests to put them out. If you have any contact with the neighbors, mgmt company, police, or fire dept regarding this problem, keep records (including audio recordings of phone calls, sending any correspondence via registered mail, etc.). Take all of this to a lawyer and ask them what you can do to hold your neighbor's feet to the proverbial fire and to encourage the management company and the responsible government departments to fulfill their responsibilities.
Whatever you do, do not touch (or even stand too close to) your neighbors or their property, regardless of whatever provocation they may provide.
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Just ring the fire brigade everytime - I do not think this is abusing the service as this burning of the hell notes practice will / could lead to a fire and loss of life.
Tell them the corridor is full of smoke and you are extremely worried that the apartment next door might be on fire. You can see the smoke and smell the smoke - it must be a fire.
See how that works.
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Years ago, when I first arrived in HK, I experienced this. My building was not typically 'local', it was 50/50 expats/locals. Having never experienced anything like this before (burning anything in the stairwells of buidlings in the UK would absloutely be against any regulations, for obvious reasons!), I was horrified when I smelt smoke from beneath my front door. I could'nt quite work out where it was coming from so naturally assumed there was a fire in someone's apartment. I grabbed my 2 kids and the dog and got downstairs as quickly as possilbe, whereupon the management office found it rather amusing that I was worried and proceeded to explain to me what it was!! Culture or not, this has totally got to be against fire department regulations, surely?! I no longer live in the same apartments, but if it were to happen again I would have not qualms about calling out the fire services until something was done about it. One day, it may be too late and a whole block could go up in flames!!
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inkpot - With respect you have your facts a little incorrect here. Yes the tenant should report the incident to the landlord and the landlord should get on to Management Co. etc. and refuse to pay management fees etc. however, the landlord is not in breach. The tenant could find that they are in breach by terminating mid contract.
My advice would be that every time a fire is lit call the police & fire services, the management will soon act. I do feel that this should not be necessary but it is totally unaceptable behaviour by your neighbour no matter what her race, age or religion.
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Get a smoke alarm fixed just behind your front door inside your flat, It will 'go off' as soon as they light their fire, nice and loud, it will drive them mad, and may go on for hours while you are at work and give the superstitious old dears a headache, that may put them off, and make management do something to stop it.
If the alarm goes off while you are at home, just call the fire brigade, each time, and ambulance to treat you for smoke inhalation, and get outside for some fresh air, while you wait for them.
Finally if none of this works, try moving,
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HKM3
14 yrs ago
Hi,
We are in the same situation, and it was especially bad over the CNY holiday. Trying to find the source of the fire I went running down the back stairwell and discovered that two! of our neighbors were burning "papers" in that rear stairwell. One of the fires was in some metal bucket, the other was in a Weber style barbecue grill - both of which seem to have been there for some time.
We complained to the management company and it hasn't been smoky since, but I suspect it will happen again. (It has happened regularly since before CNY, but never so extreme.)
We are locked into a lease and I wonder if there is any way to legally break this lease because of this behavior? It's frightening to me to think about what could go wrong.
Thanks.
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Shade
14 yrs ago
Thanks everyone for your comments.
I would just like to update everyone on what the outcome was.
I spoke to the other neighbour burning the money, she was crouched down and just said sorry, but continued burning more paper. So, I told her I was going to call the Police.
I phone the police and the operator asked what service I required. I told her Police as there is a lot of smoke in the main corridor of my building. She auutomatically called the Fire Service and withing 10 minutes I heard the sirens wailing and the neighbour took the burner into her flat and slammed her door shut.
Before the door closed I saw and heard her telling her daughter that I had complained to her and had called the Police (she has a daughter and a son but no husband).
However, when the Fire Office turned up, she leapt out of her flat door shouting "ok la" bai sun, bai saun ok la".
The Fire officer just smirked and they trued to tell me "it's a Chinese custom la" Then I said I was having trouble breathing and he immediately summoned an ambulance and sat me down and gave me oxygen to breath.
After receiving all the attention I told them I had recovered but they insited that the Ambulance come and take me to hospital. The ambulance arrived and checked my blood pressure and oxygen saturation.
I told them I did not want to go to hospital, as I had recovered after breathing oxygen and there was no more burning.
The air was still thick and smelly with stale burnt smoke. After this the policemand just asked me for my ID card and as they could not understand much English, they left after speaking to the woman living next to me.
After this, I sent a letter to the Management company explaing that this was the second time this burning was being done outsie my flat door. I also said in my email that I was considering seeking legal action and claiming on the building managment insurance for loss of earning as a result of being taken to hospital.
Then I received a message back from the Management company telling me that they will put notices up in the bbuilding that no burning OR joss sticks are to take place. I don't expect much from this, as most people in Hong Kong jsut ignore notices unless it is of advantage to themselves.
I like the idea of having a loud smoke alarm and have considred this and the idea of videoing had crossed my mind. At the moment there is a truce. But this tends to take place according too the Chinese Calendar and is something that people who worship Buddah do.
When people say it is a Chinese custom this is not strictly true, as not all Chinese worship Budda, so that is a meanless thing to say.
Teh new building supervisor said it is probably because they are 'undeducated' and that is why they do it.
So it's true. maybe you can't teach old dogs new tricks!
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Maybe management can compromise, put the notices up all over, and supply the old ladies with a cauldron outside the building to burn their papers in.
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tell her to burn it in the stairwell thats what they do here.
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Shade,
I would not go the smoke alarm route because, in doing so, you would be potentially causing a disturbance yourself and your neighbors could complain to the police or the mgmt about the noise from the alarm.
Also, not to cause you undue alarm, but I would be wary of the police at this point. They may have made a point of urging you to go to the hospital so that they could get you on record as refusing medical treatment / examination beyond what the ambulance guys gave you. As crazy as it sounds, they might conceivably be laying the groundwork for some sort of charge (against you) of wasting police/ambulance manpower or of being a nuisance yourself -- or at least the threat of such a charge.
I doubt that, deep down, the police care very deeply that your neighbors are turning your hallway into a miniature Wong Tai Sin. Their immediate problem is that they have to respond to your calls. If they can get you to leave them alone, then, from their perspective, the problem will be solved.
Tread very carefully. If moving is not an option, I would strongly recommend recording everything and trying to find a good lawyer.
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lucas.ogara you have a really good point
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Shade
14 yrs ago
I do actually have asthma, and this is why I guess I couldn't breathe well that day after I told the fire officer I felt like my chest was tight.
I am a very tolerant person, and I don't usually get worried or agrieved by something easliy, unless it it is a life threatening. In actual fact, the 'tradition of burning hell notes" and burning joss sticks is a something that only Chinese people who worship buddah do.
Not all CHinese worship buddah, some are Taoist, Muslim, CAtholic and Atheist.
On my floor there is a fire hydrant and a hose reel all painted in bright red with notices what to do in the event of a fire inside the building.
I cannot understand why the building management just turn a blind eye to the practice.
They even have to have an insurance policy for the Common Area of the building, but this act of burning would seem to invalidate or contradict the purpose of the insurance.
Oh, well lets see if it happens again. Usually, those Chinese who worship buddah do the burning on the 1st and 15th day of the Lunar Calendar.
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Milty
14 yrs ago
Shade, I also live in a chinese building and have noticed that a lot of my neighbours actually go outside to carry out this practice.
Your neighbour will probably not change her ways so I would keep calling the police everytime this happens. I doubt you will get in to trouble for this. You are just as much a tenant in that building as your neighbour and you have the right to live in a safe environment.
If anything, it will be the building management who will get in to trouble as it is their job to look after the building. If you want to take- it to the next step contact the home affairs - building management department. Contact them and they may be able to guide you on what to do next. They may contact the building management and ensure they take action.
I found this on their website relating to common areas.
http://www.legislation.gov.hk/blis_ind.nsf/CurAllEngDoc/83B09C885BE18237C8256483002901E1?OpenDocument
http://www.buildingmgt.gov.hk/en/legislation/3_1.htm
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Milty
14 yrs ago
if nothing else works, I agree with madtown. Get your own metal bucket, fill it with water and put that fire out. You should not be put in dangers in your own home. What can the old lady complain about??? Nothing. She might just rant and rave for a while but hopefully she'll get the message.
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Shade
14 yrs ago
Thanks Milty, out of all the replies posted to date, yours is the most useful.
Actually, for the first firt fire that took place I attempted to put it out with a small hand held spray, but the flames were too high and I rushed back into my flat and got half a jug of water and doused it out. It's strange, as I write this message i heard a broadcast of an RTHK3 public service announcement about fire safety in building.
Also, when I checked the Government website out I cam across a document that says
If an owner/occupier fails to comply with a Fire Safety Direction:
(a) the enforcement authority may apply to a Magistrate for a Fire Safety
Compliance Order.
(b) The enforcement authority may apply to the District Court for a Prohibition
Order to prohibit occupation of the relevant building or part thereof.
I will see what happens after the 15th day of the Chinese calaendar this month or if anyone else burns "hell's notes" in the common area.
I wonder if I should tell our managment compnay that I will write to the SCMP about the issue if this will have any impact?
Shade
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I used to live in an old Chinese building that had retail businesses on the first and second floor. One was a nail shop. They used to burn paper regularly. One night I couldn't breath so I put a towel across the door and called the fire department.
When they arrived, I expressed my concern about open flames outside a business that used so many chemicals. I also mentioned that many off the tenants had garbage outside their flats and that I could never be sure that is was joss paper and not garbage burning.
I told them that I was not prepared to investigate where the fire was coming from and would contact the fire department anytime I suspected a fire.
I pointed out the burn marks that went four feet up the walls, indicating the size of the fire.
The fire department came back several days later and put notices on the doors about the rubbish, had others clear their shoe racks and rubbish bins. They apparently had a talk with the fire starter too, because that stopped.
Through the whole thing, I didn't blame anyone or talk directly to the neighbor, I just stressed the safety issue. The fireman did say that it was "just Chinese way".
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Milty
14 yrs ago
No problem Shade. Glad I could be of help. I know what it's like as I also live in an old chinese building. Those who say you should just move to a newer building are missing the point. We pay rent or mortgages, we have a right to live in a safe environment. If you have to be treated for smoke inhalation then something is wrong (with or without asthma).
Trying ringing the building department. If they can't help you they will direct you to the right department. My tenant (also in a very old chinese building) complained about some sudden major cracks, they were concerned about the structure. The building department responded straight away. Even though my tenant was a little too paranoid I still had it check out, a building inspector came and declared the building ok.
Good luck for the 15th!
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Get the name of the fireman who spoke contrary to policy and phone as directed below.
Enquiry and Complaint Hotline
For all enquiries or complaints of any fire hazards, please dial our 24 hours telephone
hotline No. 2723 8787.
FIRE SERVICES DEPARTMENT HONG KONG
In a a previous building I did just as suggested and doused the fire every time, using a bucket or the fire hose. and then suggested they go outside where nearly all buildings have a designated burning area.
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Hello, the lawyer who helps cases for The Community Advice Bureau has sent the following advice: - sorry it's rather long!
The client can obtain a copy of the deed of mutual covenant ("DMC) from the Land Registry http://www.landreg.gov.hk/en/nss/nss.htm. If he is the owner of the flat, a copy of the DMC should be with the title deeds.
Also, the client can write to the manager requesting inspection or copy of the DMC subject to agreeing to pay reasonable copying charges.
Normally, only owners of an apartment can enforce the DMC against the Incorporated Owners or managers. Alternatively, a tenant may have a claim against the landlord if there is a provision of quiet enjoyment or duty to enforce the DMC provided in the tenancy agreement
Section 18 of the Building Management Ordinance ("BMO") (see below) imposes a duty on the IO to keep the common parts in a good clean and serviceable repair and condition. Failing to prevent owners from setting fires in the common parts may be a breach of such section.
Further, the DMC may provide that the owners must not cause a nuisance or obstruction of common areas or doing anything hazardous in common parts. In addition, owners and occupiers have Common law duties not to commit a nuisance.
Additionally,. owners and occupiers have statutory duties under the Occupiers Liability Ordinance (see below)
If an owner, the manger o IO are in breach of the DMC or BMO can lead to claims being made in the Lands Tribunal http://www.judiciary.gov.hk/en/crt_services/pphlt/html/lands.htm#2. Such claims are normally issued by the building manager or IO
if there is a nuisance or occupiers liability Ordinance, a claim may be made for damages in the Small Claims Tribunal (in the case of claims under HK$50,000)
At the first instance, I recommend that the client formally request a copy of the DMC (assuming he is an owner) and agree to pay the copying costs.
He should also make a formal complaint about the burning in common parts to both the IO and manager. He should also make a formal demand against the neighbour to cease and desist or do the burning inside her flat.
He may continue to call the Police if there is a hazard though they may treat this as a civil matter
If the owner or manager or IO fail to take action, he may consider pursuing any claims for damages in the small claims tribunal http://www.judiciary.gov.hk/en/crt_services/pphlt/html/sc.htmbut only if there is proof of actual loss and damage. If injunctive relief is being sought, then he may need to start proceedings in the District Court .http://www.judiciary.gov.hk/en/crt_services/pphlt/html/dc.htm
However, before doing so, he should seek legal advice fvrom a solicitor sd such a claim may be quite complicated (e.g if there is a personal injury claim, there may need to be a medical report prepared att the outset, though I am not a personal injury specialist and am not familiar with eh personal injury litigation protocols which apply to the District/High Courts http://legalref.judiciary.gov.hk/lrs/common/pd/pdcontent.jsp?pdn=PD18.1.htm&lang=EN) and the client needs to show loss/damage in excess of HK$50,000 or good reason for granting of an injunction and the legal costs (which could be substantial) may outweigh the benefit.
Some law firms may provide free limited advice on the above issues: see http://www.choosehklawyer.org/en/search_fl_practice_areas_result.asp
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Shade
14 yrs ago
Dear Community Advice,
Thank you for providing information.
It certainly helps to put things into perspective now and your information will also be useful to other people in the same or simlar situation.
Shade.
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&&&
14 yrs ago
Hi Shade,
1/ Be sure to KEEP the Paperwork such as hospitalization record and the Police Report (or any paperwork from that call you made) to Police and Fire Dept.
2/ Buy a small portable fire hydrant and just use it on the burning.
3/ Many Chinese do the burning of offerings on the streets. So, should she.
Your right as a resident should be respected by your neighbours. If I were you i would investigate the steps to file a small claims suit to her as an adversarial warning for the loss of income. The steps are relatively easy to do, I was told by friends who have done it.
You might get a kind judge who understands the dilemma of your being caught in the raw end of a dying cultural practice. The hospitalization record, police and fireman visits are helpful evidences on your side.
Make sure you send her a registered letter of stern complaint - as legal evidence later.
Old Chinese woman abhors the sound of Court, of Legal matters. That will be a deterrant.
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Shade
14 yrs ago
Hi &&&,
Thanks also for your advice.
I did send another email to the building managment company, telling them that I had not seen any action on their behalf to deter the practice of burning paper inside the common areas of the building.
Since I last called the fire service and police the burning has stopped outside my flat entrance and notices have been placed inside the lifts and at the noticeboards in the main lobby. Although, I have a feeling that this will not deter the practice for long, let's see.
I have made a point of recoriding the police officers numbers and then I send an email to the Management Company. I explained the law to them also.
It is difficult to to suddenly expect everyone in the building to cease this dangerous and unhealth practice. I don't have the energy or right to take on the whole building, as my concern is for my own safety.
Unfortunately, in Hong Kong, Chinese people are worried about losing face all the time and so they usually 'tolerate' things, even if it is at the expense of their own safety and health and those people who try to stand up for themsleves are then labelled as 'trouble makers' or people say things like, "if you don't like it, leave Hong Kong, it is a Chinese custom."
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Shade
14 yrs ago
I thought it would be useful to add this new information to this thread, to help other people who might be in a similar situation. Also, I will be interested to hear what the outcome is.
Woman seeks damages for incense burning
Lai Ying-kit
4:38pm, May 23, 2011
A woman is seeking HK$100,000 in damages after her neighbours burnt incense she claims harmed the health of her baby, a court heard on Monday.
Hu Wei-hsin also wants the District Court her neighbours on the 8/F at Lai Chi Kok Bay Garden in Mei Foo to cease burning incense.
Hu, who moved to Hong Kong from the United States last year, told the court her baby weighed only 1.8 kilograms when born two weeks premature in March. She claimed the early birth was caused by incense smoke she inhaled while pregnant.
The court heard the incense was placed in two canisters, one next to the neighbour’s door and the other near the ceiling, in the corridor.
Hu said her baby was now experiencing breathing difficulties because of the smoke and overseas medical research had linked incense smoke to health problems in infants.
Hu’s husband told the court that a camera he had installed in the corridor showed their neighbours brushing “white dust” towards their door and, on one occasion, swearing at the camera.
The neighbours are a family of three. Wife Hui Sim-mei, rejected Hu’s claim.
She told the court there was no evidence her incense burning was responsible for the respiratory problems of Hu’s baby
.
Hui also said she had been burning incense for 40 years. She said she had asked other neighbours if her incense caused any problems. None had ever said it did
.
She told the court she hoped to continue burning incense because she believed it offered blessings to her family
.
The hearing before Judge David Lok Kai-hong continues.
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When I heard about this case, I thought of this thread.
Incidentally, Shade, how are things going with your neighbor?
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I too hope Hu wins her case. Burning of any sort should not be allowed in any residential building for obvious reasons!
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Really? They burn hell money twice a month and you call the Police, Fire and an ambulance?
I hate to break this to you, but you're in a foreign country and it sounds like you are majorly overreacting. You probably also tied up valuable city resources that could have been spent saving the life of someone who actually needed it.
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You're right. This traditional custom was always meant to be conducted in cramped built up environments with the possibility of physical danger and as close as possible to other people who may or my not want to be involved. This woman is not only successfully using and satisfying her knowledge of this ancient right...but she is also using her most advanced powers of common sense, empathy, decency and awareness of modern structural do's and don't's. She's well aware that there is not a time and more importantly, a place for this custom. The time and place is anytime, anywhere...because she is from Hong Kong and she can do what she wants. If you don't like it...that's your problem.
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I hate to break this to you everything_everywhere, but I am not in a foreign country, this is my country and guess what burning of any sort inside a residential building is not acceptable especially in an area that affects others. Wonder why she doesn't do it in her own apartment. It is a health concern and a huge safety hazzard. Not an over reaction as far as I am concerned.
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Shade
14 yrs ago
INCENSED WOMAN RECEIVES HK$75,000 PAYOUT
South China Morning Post
Austin Chiu
Jun 04, 2011
A family who burned pungent incense in the corridor outside their high-rise flat has been ordered to pay HK$75,000 in compensation to a neighbour who took them to court.
The family was also told it must only burn environmentally friendly joss sticks in future, and they should be just 11centimetres long.
The unprecedented order was handed down by District Court Judge David Lok Kai-hong as he granted an injunction to Hu Wei-hsin after she filed a nuisance claim against Ma Hung-wing, complaining that the burning of the incense led to the premature birth of her baby and caused discomfort, including respiratory problems, stress, headache and sleepless nights.
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Shade
14 yrs ago
INCENSE BURNING CAN BE HARMFUL SAYS SCIENTSIS
Amy Nip
South China Morning Post
June 3, 2011
Inhaling fumes from burning incense may cause lung problems, a scientist has said.
Dr Joseph Yung Ka-fu, from Polytechnic University's department of applied biology and chemical technology, says that incense-burning produces dangerous suspended particles which may accumulate in the lungs and affect their functioning.
A Taiwanese study in 2006 showed that the amount of cancer-causing substances and suspended particles in a packed temple could be five times as high as in a room in which someone is smoking a cigarette.
The harmful material could cause coughing, nasal inflammation, asthma and rashes.
In comparison, "environmentally-friendly" sticks produce less smoke and a better smell, according to sellers. They are generally shorter than their traditional counterparts. However, some burn out in half an hour, one shopkeeper said.
Their effects on health have yet to be studied: chemicals or herbs - the effects of burning which have not been established - are used as a substitute for sandalwood.
Temples and tourist attractions on the mainland started promoting smokeless incense last year, with authorities at Mount Heng, in Hunan province, setting guidelines on the chemical composition of incense. Incense that fails the criteria is banned from temples on the mountain.
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Excellent result! A step in the right direction.
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agreed, excellent result! as someone said above, burn that sh*t inside your own doors if you want to.
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i too agree, great outcome! This practice of incense burning is a public hygiene, safety and health nuisance. It has nothing to do with one's religion. People who burn it are totally selfish. Smoking is banned in public places but one can still smoke in their own home so I suggest the same with incense burning.
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