Posted by
ny1
18 yrs ago
I am looking for some frank opinions on life in Hong Kong in general for westerners. Is it really a decent and enjoyable place to live in? Does anyone dislike living there and want out? I am really also interested in hearing from people who are having problems and do not like Hong Kong and the reasons for their issues.
Just looking for genuine thoughts. Thank you all.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Salem,
Thanks for your response. I pretty much lived my whole life in NYC, so I am to some degree used to urban life and the goods and bads associated with it. Are the things you hate (other than politics) comparable to, or that much worse than, NYC or other big cities? I know this is a subjective question, but I was curious to know how people viewed life there, even if subjective. I would like to get a personal view of HK from as many people who've experienced life there as possible. I definitely don't mind urban life, but do enjoy getting away as well and don't like feeling claustrophobic. Thanks.
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I agree with the other posters...it really will depend a lot on your personality(ies) and how adaptable and open you are to moving in general and a new and different culture. There is usually some severe culture shock when you first arrive, but after some time (this could be a month or it could be a year!) you will probably come to appreciate all that HK has to offer. For Americans who of course must still pay US taxes (plus HK taxes) it is important to have a good expat package so that you can have a nice apartment. Since you do not have children, you may want to live in Central, in Mid-levels to be near the center of everything. Another huge advantage to living in HK is the travel opportunities in Asia, in a matter of a few hours, you can be in Bali or Phuket or KL.
Hong Kong (probably similar to NYC-but you've been there way too long!!!) is a very exciting and dynamic city and very efficient and safe compared to many US cities. It is usually easy to make friends especially among the large expat population. On the downside, in our personal experience, it can be difficult to to become close with locals. And the work environment can be stressful and tense-but that depends what sort of profession you're in. Work hours are universally long however. Pollution is definitely the biggest negative for most expats-it is far worse than US/European cities, maybe comparable to Mexico City? The weather can be both good and bad: too humid and not most of the time which breeds lots of mold and awful smells. Of course you can easily have full-time household help (Domestic helper) for around 600USD/month. Does this help??
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Thank you for all your responses. I found them to be extremely helpful and informative. It seems that one consistent theme is pollution. Could you expound a little on this aspect? For example, does exposure to this level of pollution have any long-term effect on you physically? How does the pollution manifest itself generally (ie, hard to breathe, can't do anything outdoors, etc.)? Also, if I work for a large reputable US-based company, will the work life still be as stressful as you say it is for work typically in HK, and will the hours also be as long? What are the work hours typically for US-based companies in HK? I like the idea of making new expat friends easily, as I will know no one there going in. Financially speaking, do you think that, if I were to earn the same amount of money as I would have earned in NYC, I would be able to save more or less than I would have in NYC, considering the higher housing costs and differences in cost of living? I must admit that I have grown very used to driving to a lot of places and enjoying outdoor activities like hiking and BBQing, so it would be good if someone could tell me about life in HK without a car and the possibilities of enjoying the outdoors and the possible limitations on such a lifestyle due to pollution, congestion and simply small space. (I have to say that I would not like any place, HK or not, where I feel confined to my apartment all hours of the day, even assuming that I have enough to afford a pretty nice place.) Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thank you all.
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The question about Pollution is a controversial one because we don't really have accurate comparable measurements here in HK. I think there just a NY Times article on this subject? I did as much reasearch on the subject as I could, and much of what I read did indeed say that living here full-time is the equivalent of being a smoker. But then you have my husband who points out that locals live longer than Americans! And I have friends who believe that the lower crime rate offsets the worse pollution here. As everyone says, it's about trade-offs and nothing is perfect!
You can still BBQ here and you can have a car and drive but as Expat222 says,that may not be very practical if you live right in Central. I have a friend who moved with her family from Manhattan and found the transition very easy. They have a car here which they enjoy for driving around the Island, while they did not in New York. You can hike on the South side of the Island (so maybe you'd rather live there?) or in the New Territories or on the other Islands.
If you want a beautiful apartment with a view, plan on 10,000USD/month and up. You can certainly live much much cheaper, but it won't be a luxury place.
I agree with Expat222 that you should come to HK just for the great cultural and lifechanging experience. But it is true that you need to figure out exactly how it will affect your career, both financially and in terms of your future. In some cases, going abroad is fantastic for your career, but sometimes you can be forgotten, and I have known people who returned to the US only to be laid off shortly afterward. It also depends on how long you plan to come.
Let me just say that intitially I was so homesick that I thought I wanted to return to the US, but after a year, I realized I preferred our HK lifestyle by far.
Since you are young and don't have children yet, you and your spouse have a whole world of adventures ahead of you in Asia. Hope it works out for you.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Thank you everyone for all your insight. I find that your thoughts are such a wealth of information, I'd like to keep the thread going for as long as possible and will be back shortly with more questions. In the meantime, if anyone is open to doing an IM chat session some time to further this discussion in real time, please let me know. I'd love to chat with anyone. Cheers.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Thank you all for your responses. Please keep them coming, as they are extremely helpful. Let me tell you more about my current situation leading up to this potential move to HK. I expect to have an opportunity to work for the HK office of one of the most renowned and largest investment banks in the world. I am the type of person who equally values professional development and ambitions and personal life. To that end, I can say with much confidence that the professional fulfillment I may achieve through the move may very well outweigh that which I may achieve here in NYC (as just another lawyer among thousands of lawyers). However, I am extremely hesitant about the move due to many personal concerns and my doubts about the level of personal fulfillment I may achieve in HK. Many of your responses and other information I have been able to gather independently have indicated to me some really disturbing points that may not sit well with me, based on my personal preferences and values. For example, having grown up in NYC and spent so much time there, I never knew an environment that was pristine or spotless, but the level of pollution in HK just seems ludicrously over the top to the point of perhaps justifying a decision to stay in NYC based on that premise alone! I think someone in this thread mentioned that she developed asthma! It just seems so elevated in everyone's list of topics for discussion and, to that end, is highly disturbing, especially when considering the possibility of living in such a place for an indefinite period and even having children at some point. Also, the cost of living in HK just sounds downright outrageous. Even though I expect to be well compensated, I will still have outstanding financial ties and obligations in the US, such as loans, insurance premiums, family obligations, etc., and will be in no position to take any sort of financial “hit” on a net basis. I could never have imagined a place where you would be required to live in a place that is more expensive, but smaller, than the places in NYC! In any event, I really wish not to spend more than $2000USD per month. Is this even feasible (and I mean feasible in the sense that I will be living in a place that is at least around 800 sq feet)? I guess I can try to get used to the notion of not having a car, but I think it will still take some time, if even possible, to get used to just the geographical limitation of HK. I have always been one to enjoy the limitless boundaries outside of NYC and the thought of driving to Boston or Washington DC for the weekend and the like. Again, I cannot emphasize enough the importance of being able to enjoy outdoor life in helping me cope with this aspect of HK. If the pollution is such as to confine me to my apartment or other indoor areas constantly, there is no way that I will ever be able to make up for the smaller geography of HK. On that note, I also heard that the weather is often hot and humid in HK. This is expected, but how bad does it get, as I do not enjoy prolonged periods of humidity whatsoever? I also would like to ask about food in HK. I am so used to the abundance of food in quantity and variety in the US that I am really afraid about the level of restriction I may need to accept in HK. I need lots of Western-style vegetables, fruit and MEAT and am wondering if this is possible, and if so, at what cost.
I guess, to summarize, it definitely seems like HK holds much promise in terms of professional fulfillment but really lacks some of the things that I may otherwise look for in achieving personal satisfaction. I would really like your opinion on what the best decision may be for me. Currently, my instinct is instructing me to stay here, despite the missed professional opportunity. I have also given much thought to moving to HK and giving it a try, keeping open the possibility of returning to NYC if things don’t turn out well. The problem with this approach is that I have heard mixed thoughts about the road back, especially given my years of professional dedication to the Asian region as opposed to one that is closer to NYC. Someone in this thread even mentioned he/she knew people who returned only to be laid off. Does anyone have an opinion about the possibility of coming back to the US following a few years in HK, and has anyone heard of any stories of people doing this, whether successfully or unsuccessfully? Does it make a difference that I will be working for a very prominent investment bank, which has influence in many different regions in the world?
I would really appreciate your continued thoughts on all of the above. Your advice is invaluable, as this will undoubtedly be one of the most important decisions I make in my life. Despite some of the issues I describe above, I am sure many of you have had legitimate and sounds reasons for having stayed in HK for as long as you have, and I would be so interested to hear more about your reasoning and feelings in remaining there.
If anyone is open to having some sustained discourse with me on this topic, I would love to trade emails privately or even use instant messaging service. Please let me know.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
JoeandChris,
I agree with your advice. A trip out there would be great. Unfortunately, I am constrained by my current job and so will have difficulty taking such a trip within the time I am given to make a decision. My potential employer is actually planning to fly me out, provided we are all committed (unofficially) to the move, but I suppose it would be pretty much too late by then.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
A housing allowance would certainly help me in terms of matching some of my current living situation in HK. I don't consider myself a high-end guy, and I certainly don't live in Trump Towers, so I wouldn't expect more than a 900 to 1000 sq ft apartment that is clean, modern and decently located.
I agree with you, kse4, that the rivers in NYC certainly are not exemplary of cleanliness, but I certainly am squeamish about any place that is claimed to have pollution that far exceeds anything found in the worst areas of the US, including those rivers you mention. I guess what I am saying is that I didn't know it could be any worse, but it seems people are saying it is. I understand your general comment about unregulated businesses running rampant in Asia as being part of the pollution problem, but I tend to see my potential opportunity as more of a positive force than negative in bringing Asia and foreign investors together and attribute the pollution problem more to the unwillingness of regulators to address the problem out of their own self-serving interests to sustain exhorbitance and excessive wealth.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Cara,
You make a good point of course about the potential to explore so many new and different countries and regions that would not otherwise be possible from the US, at least as readily. I agree that this is definitely one of the strong points of living in HK. At this point, I'm more concerned with the other consistently prominent points about HK -- pollution and high cost of living. Regarding the latter, can someone give me an idea of how much the total living expenses could potentially be monthly? Total of 70,000HK per month?
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ny1
18 yrs ago
I guess 70,000HKD per month is pretty much double what I spend monthly in NYC. That would probably mean, I'd need to make a lot more than what I make here, adjusted for tax differences.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
tangerine too,
i have a wife. she does not have a job currently but attends school. she's open to thinking about different options if we move to HK.
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also -
talk to an accountant. THere is a SLIGHT tax advantage in working abroad. The first $80,000 you make is tax exempt in the US - you just pay the straight HK tax on it - 17% on it. they have changed recently the tax exemption on housing however, and so that may play into how your tax structures work out.
The accountant who does our taxes for us is at US Asia tax. Very knowledgeable. Perhaps you can consult with them and find out some more.
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I always get a bit worried to say how exactly I feel about Hong Kong because I do choose to live here, but at times I just hate this place.Other times I love it. On the positive I love having a helper at home my family had to pay a cleaning lady 20 can an hour to come in 3 times a week. Here you can have full time for under 4000hk a month. I love the night life . I love going to LHF with friends and my hubby and dancing, or getting dressed up for an event or ball.I find back home iot's harder to get people out and there are just not as many events to attend. Most cases you can make more money. I know people who have just a bachelor degree or none making over 100k a month. It is also easier to meet people and you can meet some of the most fantastic people, I have made some wondeful friends here, sadly most of them left but it doesn't take long before you meet more amazing vibrant people. Cara , I must say I am so impressed you seem to live a great life style and you did it on a lot less than some. I am embarassed of this but I think 70k is not enough. If you are working at a high level and you want to live a high lifestyle you would be surprised how easy you can spend over 70 k a month so if you want to save as well ask for over 100k. Some apartments rent is over 70k a month. Now on the negative.I honestly never see stars at night. Sounds like a small thing but if I look out my window, nothing. Yes, it is a fantastic city view and that is pretty specail but no stars. The pollution is dreadful and I try not to think of what it will do to me physically. I often feel that locals in Hong KOng have small magnets in their shoes that makes them always walk in the direction you are trying to turn or walk. The stopping in the middle of the road and blocking people in MTR's and the street is annoying. Whats funny is the odd time there is no one in the lift people still stand in front or too close, even when given the opportunity to have space. Honesty can be an issue I have had to deal with, whether it is at work, in a store, someone your hire, a taxi. Sometimes it feels like being cheated for money, time ,is just what you should expect and I am sorry to offend this is just some of my experiences in 9 years here. I also think there is this unspoken racism that exisit and no one mentions it because we don't want to offend but it's true. My best mate married a afican american and they could tell you some stories that are no to pretty. There is also the assumtion that if you are an expact then it is normal you should pay more than a local. There are also fustrations at work that can be so unbeleievable at times I am amazed Hong KOng is as successful as it is, people work long hours but not always productive and you may have to explain things a lot more than you'd like to get simple things done.
Honestly you have to come here and see it and experience for yourself and decide. It can be a great place for a middle age men if he is looking for a little action as it seems quite easy for men in that aspect. There are lots of great reasons for living here. I hope I wasn't too negative I do love a lot about Hong Kong I also met my husband here and he happens to be from Asia. Best of luck!
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humidity - very humid. Like NYC summers - but for about 9-10 months of the year. It was lovely weather for me from about late october to middle of March. AFter that I always felt wet. That said, it's great for the skin and it provides a lush tropical green landscape for your eyes.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Everyone,
Thanks so much for your continued advice and wonderful support. I agree with everyone that perhaps a trip out to HK would be invaluable to my decision on whether to move there or not. Unfortunately, I do not expect to have the time to visit HK on my own time, as I must save my remaining vacation days for the week in which my company plans to fly me out to visit their office and to attend some seminars, by which time I will probably have to have committed to some degree to moving there. I wish I had more time to work with, in which case I would surely plan a trip of my own with no strings attached.
Cara and everyone, I really appreciate the different opinions you shared with me and others about your lives in HK. I truly believe that your insights contain many consistencies as well as themes unique to yourselves, both of which are tremendously helpful to me since it gives me quite a good range of ways in which people seem to live and enjoy (or hate) HK. In that regard, I treasure your honesty and find your frank input really helpful. I don't doubt that 70,000HK per month should hold me over, but since HK is still a mysterious place for me I was really throwing that number out there as an example for people to give me an idea about what could be the possibilities in HK on such a budget from a hypothetical perspective. Frankly, I could never get comfortable spending that much per month, especially since I spend half that much per month in NYC and I feel so strongly now that such an amount is really really exhorbitant for my taste. I'd like to spend far less if possible, but I find it difficult in NYC to do that, and my lifestyle is far from extravagant (trust me). For example, I would say that on a typical weekend I rarely go out to nice restaurants but rather consume a lot of fast food (ie, pizza, sandwiches, etc.) and occasionally do a little bit of shopping ($100USD at TJ Maxx or the local mall?). Again, the reviews seem very mixed; whereas some folks like Cara seem to be (and should be applauded for) doing well on half of 70,000HK, others seem to feel that even this large sum may not feel like enough in HK. On this note, I took some time to do some research on housing in HK, and it really seems like the choice of housing at levels below $2500USD is indeed very limited and spotty. How do people feel about housing options there in this regard? Can people give me an idea about what decent housing options may be available for such an amount? Also, do rents rise often in HK?
Kse4, I am not too concerned with the tax differentials between HK and the US, as I believe the net effect should not be all that great from what I understand. Thanks for your recommendations re a tax accountant, however, as I will consider consulting such a professional. It is true that I emphasized (perhaps overemphasized) MEAT in my discussions. Perhaps this is an unfair stereotype, but I always had this thought inside my head, based on hearsay from people from Asia, that quality meat may be limited in supply and very costly, which is quite understandable since we’re not exactly dealing with the vast expanses of a places like Texas, where cows are all over the place.
Tangerine too, you are correct in your assessment that I am merely trying to get an idea of what it would take to maintain a comparable lifestyle (it doesn’t even have to be equal) to that which I enjoy now. I’m curious to hear about others’ experiences with living expenses and to further considering my prospects.
Marykay, thanks so much for your balanced insight. Don’t feel bad at all about sharing some of the negative features of HK, as no place is expected to be perfect. In fact, I find information on the negative aspects to be far more helpful, because there are always plenty of sources that laud HK’s positive aspects.
HKchoichoi, humidity, and lots of it. Wow, that would give me some pause, since it is for such a long period of time in the year. Is the humidity equivalent to that found in the Caribbean islands, or perhaps Korea during the monsoon season?
Everyone, please keep the advice coming. Is anyone itching to leave HK soon, and if so, could you let me know some of your reasons? How is it in HK in terms of dealing with natives there and the foreign culture? Do you feel forced to stay within areas frequented mostly by expats, unless you are the real adventurous type?
Does anyone absolutely and, without reserveation, love HK, and if so, why?
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Everyone, one other critical bit of information about myself I forgot to include in my previous post is that I am not really at a stage in my life where transition comes very easily or without much reflection or question. That is, the opportunity really surfaced at a time when I felt that I was well on my way to settling into a lifestyle that could call "my own" for the foreseeable future. I bought a nice condo a 3 years ago, a nice car just last year, took out a solid life insurance policy, etc., all of which are the first big steps and purchases I have been able to consummate independent of my parents or anyone else. My wife also recently started school again to pursue a career in nursing, something that I would be very proud to stand by and watch. As you can see, my days of living in uncertainty and under someone else's roof have become distant memories, and I guess the thought of reacquainting myself, albeit to a more limited extent, with some of those old issues has been a load to bear in itself when it comes to thinking about uprooting myself and moving to HK. I know that my posts may have emanated a sense of excessive caution and worry on my end in the eyes of many, but hopefully you will understand that this sense is in part due to such factors. How do you all feel about someone in my shoes making the drastic move at this point in his/her life?
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cd
18 yrs ago
To NY1.
I have lived in HK for just over 9 years, arrived in 1997 3 weeks before the handover, with 3 kids, have since had 2 more born here. We all love HK and to us its home, although there are days when you hate it, and certain things about it, but thats probably true of anywhere. Yes. its expensive here, but to be honest many things are comparable to UK prices, like petrol, running a car etc. I buy lots of local produce like chicken and veg,(8 chicken breasts from china cost about $50, from USA about $200)day to day on many things like that makes a big difference, we drink long life milk as opposed to fresh as its cheaper, but we have lots of fresh fruit and veg which is very reasonable here. As to the weather, we love the fact that 10 months of the year you can go out in t-shirts, I've never worn a coat in HK, although in the winter you do need a warm fleece. We find the humidity doesn't really affect us or stop us doing things, (although Mar is particularly bad for things going mouldy). The kids play a lot of outdoor sport, rugby from sep to apr, football from sep to may, plus social football in the summer. Most weekends in the summer are spent around the pool or on the beach or junk trips etc. The hiking in HK is brilliant - apparently, haven't actually done any. There are so many beautiful places to fly to within a short flight. For a couple $70k is plenty especially if you get housing on top. Also if you and your wife are planning on having kids then make sure you get a schooling allowance as schooling is very expensive here. We live on less than $70K a month (although we do get housing and the majority of schooling on top) for a family of 7 plus a helper. We aren't extravagant but we don;t have a bad lifestyle, we belong to a club, so have the pool and somewhere to eat out at reduced rates, but once a week or so we'll eat out somewhere else. Eating out is reasonable here, there are some great restaurants were a main meal is around $120, but drinks are expensive and will double most restaurant bills.
Agree with Cara, live out of town for cheaper accommondation and a better lifestyle. We live out towards Sai Kung. You could get a 1400sf duplex with roof for less than $20k, either with a green view or sea view. Pollution is less out of town. It is easier with a car but a small car is really not that expensive to run, a Mazda 121 for expamle would cost about $3-4k a month to run if you add up tax, insurance, petrol etc.depending on how far you drive, but it means you can go all over HK and see the beautiful sides that a lot of people on HK island don't see. Most houses have at least 1 free parking space, you can get free parking with you shopping.
The first time we were looking to move abroad we were undecided, but i said to my husband, whats the worse that can happen - we don't like it and have to move back, but if you don't do it you will spend the rest of life wondering what if...and regretting not going for it.
Once you've lived in Asia, its quite hard to go back to the 'Western' world. We can't see us ever moving back to the UK, although I don't think we'll stay in HK for ever either.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
cara and cd, thank you for your replies.
has anyone ever regretted making the move to HK or wonder what it would have been like if he/she stayed behind?
in terms of food, what kind of cooking do you think is most suitable for the type of materials that are readily available in HK (ie, not prohibitively expensive or not simply unavailable)? is the quality of local produce amenable to what westerners are accustomed to, considering that many of us outsiders are used to stringent quality standards in their native countries? how often do you visit your country of origin and do you incorporate that into your budget? what is the predominant type of food in most areas of HK outside of specialty restaurants which obviously provide a wide variety of menus -- cantonese or mandarine cuisine? do you have your usual array of western fast ood chains in HK? do you need to join a club more or less to exercise regularly or participate in some good activities (like tennis) for middle-aged sports enthusiasts?
thanks again for your info...
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air quality the past few days has made me re-think what i want.
the only thing stopping me, and i guess alot of others is the $$$$.
i guess i'll work one more year maybe 2 and go back to my native country where the air is much better and i have my big space.
thats the only thing i don't like too much about hk at present, but there are so many great things about the place as mentioned above.
just do it, you can always go back.
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We moved to HK almost 4 years ago but I was in the UK for a bit of that time as arrived during SARS and difficult for a non-chinese speaking lawyer to get a job here. I am enjoying being in HK but there are (as listed above) bad points to the place but also good points. I miss things about home but am also enjoying the varied lifestyle here. Every night there is something on and every night in Lan Kwai Fong and Soho is as busy as a Fri or Sat night at home. If you are coming over with your existing bank employer then you should have no trouble slotting back in to the NY office if it does not turn out to your liking. In terms of opportunities when you head home, the downside for me in private practice is that the firms back home may not value your Asian experience the same as if you had stayed there. Also in terms of partnership options I may have been better to stay there. If you are in-house then these should not be of concern to you. The work here is interesting and very diverse with lots of different jurisdictions involved on the transactions. The hours are long in private practice but comparable to UK pp. In-house hours here are definately shorter than private practice but there is a culture of staying late here in both sectors. The big recruitment firms should be able to help you in terms of expected market salaries and lifestyle/hours. There are also guides on living in HK and the expenses/rental side of things. Try garfield robbins and taylor root. We have housing allowance as part of my hubby's work package and I would definately recommend that you try and negotiate that into your deal. When we first moved here we had $24K ish a month and got an amazing 2 story place 1800 sq ft in Gold Coast, NT for that with a garden. Rents do rise a lot in HK (generally unless a SARS type event). By way of example, a friend was paying $41K a month for 2 years and when his lease came up for renewal it went up to $55K a month which was not feasible for him. We do not have a car and have not needed one. The only thing that they are good for is to have some freedom to go further afield without the public transport timeframes etc (going to Stanley in a car is so much nicer than on the bus). Taxis are so cheap here that for most shorter distances I use those or buses once you know the routes. Sports etc - you can join clubs like the football club or cricket club which are great if you want to have a gym, pool, access to sports teams and good reasonable restaurants but not cheap to join. I am on a local package (no housing) but my firm gave me an allowance when I first started to join a club if I wanted but I ended up using it to pay for 2 years in advance at a nice gym as football club and cricket club were not convenient for my work or home to make it worthwhile as a gym option (which is primarily what I wanted it for). I play sport for valley rfc which does not have a clubhouse and hence the fees are cheap for a season - less than HK$2000. Our building has a pool but I use it much less than I thought I would. We shop at local supermarkets most of the time but sometimes for some things, at the fancy expat ones. When people come up from home we have requests for home food which is nice. There is an NZ shop in Causeway Bay for the must have LP soft drink and toffee pops. Good quality red meat is expensive here but chicken etc is ok. Eating out is reasonable too for both chinese and western food depending on what you choose. Around Soho - lots of options and the 2 for 1 deals on Monday are great. On the whole - we are here for work rather than by choice. It is a lot different from home but a good life experience for a few years. Agree with the post above that for "what if" reasons alone - I am pleased that we came here.
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PS our rental allowance has since increased and we are now in midlevels. The commuting to and from work between Gold Coast, NT and central became too much to bear. 40 mins on a bus each way - often standing all the way. You should bear the public transport into central in mind when you are considering living further afield.
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The pollution doesn't bother me in the slightest, I have to say, but then I do live out on an island. I also live on a fraction of this $70K figure that's being bandied about. Yes, nice red meat costs more. So, I adapt. I eat more chicken - I can't say that this affects my quality of life in the slightest.
The only thing that really bothers me is the huge difference between the attitudes of HKers and of say, the British (I'm English and so don't want to be speaking for other nationalities). People beat their wives/children/dogs, but no one gets involved as it's a family matter. Workers allow themselves to be bullied by their employers to work late every night, as they are afraid of losing their jobs. People blindly knock back antibiotics like candy, without the slightest concern for future problems. Children kill themselves because they have not got straight As at primary school. These are the things I have issues with, but after 12 years here I can honestly say that my quality of life is different than it would be in the UK, but in no way worse.
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And that's one of the main reasons I stay...
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NY1,
Maybe Cara is right and this is not the right time in your life for a big change like this...We came because we were in our 40s with children and felt that this would be our once in a lifetime chance to live in Hong Kong. We too, of course gave up a lovely home, cars and lifestyle, pastoral life near a beautiful clean city with fantastic schools, wonderful friends. We chose to come to HK although we knew it was NOT financially more lucrative (due to higher cost of living in HK) We have an excellent expat package but our rent has now gone up to over 200K HKD! We love and hate Hong Kong but we hope to be able to stay because we find life more exciting and challenging here for us and our children. It is true that one big drawback is pollution; it is more like L.A. in the 70's when I lived there as child.
Let me give you some advice that expat friends gave me when I was in your position: You need to have a very strong relationship with your wife; because this experience will stress both of you and you will need to stick together. If you are not both "on board" about coming to Hong Kong and with positive attitudes, you will be miserable. I do have friends whose marriages fell apart or they moved back because they hated it so much and could not adapt to the differences. If for instance, you or your wife are extremely sensitve to smells or mold, you could be unhappy here. Also, if you always need to be in control of things, you will probably be unhappy and frustrated both at work and in your life here.
You could go round and round about this but as Salem says, it will come down to your own gut feelings. You really need to nail down the financial aspects and then figure out your pros and cons, such as your condo, and your wife's schooling, etc.
Good luck!
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Babette, Cara, geiboyi, nzlawyergirl, cityslicker, salem, conordec, oldhand, thanks a lot for your continued replies. I must admit that you are all correct to a certain degree that I tend to be overly cautious about these kinds of decisions (which unfortunately I attribute to all these years of practicing law and being paid to think about potential problems that need to be prevented). Unlike the spirit of these posts, however, there was a time in my life when I was the type to literally drop out of school to go and experience life in Korea for a couple of years without any prearrangements such as a job or established place to stay. Believe it or not, I stayed for a few years and enjoyed my experience fully. So, I am really capable of doing such a thing again and have it well within me to take another such leap of faith. I guess the reason for all my posts and the excessive pontification is that life is a bit different for me now and that different responsibilities have arisen. My wife, whom I met during my time in Korea, has only recently begun to really get on her feet here, after so much emotional and spiritual investment, and even if she is supportive of my decision to go, I must make sure that such a move is the right one on both of our parts from an objective stance. I am especially surprised and encouraged by the fact that no one in this thread seems to hold any regrets about moving to HK in the end and that everyone seems to agree that it was worth their while. Is this really true, or am I misinterpreting some people's thoughts? I think you are all right that I should perhaps just follow my instincts. I must say that my first instinctive reaction to a possible move when first approached with the opportunity was an unfettered "No", but after subsequent discussions on the job detail and learning more about the experiences of other expats, I have to say that I was moving past the "Maybe" and closer to the "Yes" end of the spectrum. As many have already stated, I feel that HK may be quite an exciting reprieve from the life that I now know and praise you for having the guts to go there to enjoy it and really, truly, want to find every reason to go and like the place. No place in the world is perfect, and there are many bads that go with the good about a certain place. But, I have been having much difficulty getting over those bad points about HK that seem to resonate especially loudly for me since they are all points that I consider really important to my ability to enjoy HK or any other place: level of pollution, cost of living, cost of education, opportunities for wife, etc. You have all been there for many, many years, and should be lauded for having done so in following your ambitions and dreams, but I am not sure that I could ever get comfortable with the possibility of living in HK indefinitely. I was told that your horizon for returning to the US with a seamless professional transition is about 2 to 3 years. It seems that if I am not amenable to the idea of living in HK forever, perhaps it's not even worth leaving for the 2 or 3 year window since, not matter how long I end up staying, I will always have a return trip in mind at some point. I am curious how people feel about this logic (although I know that one person at least has noted that logic should be thrown out the door). Also, what were your mindsets when you decided finally to push the button on HK? Thanks again.
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I completely agree with Salem when he speaks about the spouse who comes along-that is EXACTLY what happened to me, and then my husband was too stressed at his new job to help me and be supportive or even empathisize. In over 20 years together, that was the most difficult time of our relationship. I was the most depressed I'd ever been and my husband the most stressed I'd ever seen him. Fortunately, we did work through that time, and it did of course make us stronger. (And now I do have a life and I would hate to give up having a helper because it gives me time to enjoy my family and not be cleaning all day long as I am when we're in the US.)
NY1 does bring up a good point too about the transience of the expat assignment...You do feel temporary, and you never know (even if you do have a 2 or 3 year contract) how long you're here for. Most expats don't think about really decorating or painting their flats, because they could be moving in a year or two, either to a new flat when their rent is raised, or to a new country! I always feel that everytime a make a major purchase or sign up for 12 months of Cable that I could be jinxing our stay! I do get tired of not having a place to call our own, but then it is also nice that we are not the ones who have to call the plumber or electrician when something goes wrong. In our case, there is already talk of moving us back to the states or elsewhere after only a couple years in HK, and we just don't know where we want to go either. The other thing to keep in mind is that, if you do stay long-term, after a certain number of years (5 or 7?) most companies will want to roll you off the expat package and go local, meaning you would pay your own rent, etc. If your salary has increased enough to compensate for that, as with some of the Investment bankers who make millions per year, then no problem, but for most, that is a huge burden especially considering HK rents are on the increase.
On whether or not to buy a car, that will be up to you! We didn't get one right away but I was so much happier once we did get one, and also once we joined the American Club ( club membership is something else to ask for in your expat package). Those were things I apparently needed to help ease my transition. We still find driving in HK stressful but depending on where you live, sometimes it is much more relaxing waiting for a taxi.
For your wife's schooling, is it possible to oontinue here? I don't think that would be as expensive as in the US actually. That would be somthing you could look into if you could come on a visit...Even if you just came to HK for a 4 day weekend, it would at least give you a sense of what you'd be in for. I realize that it would be exhausting and that you would only get a glimpse of what your life will be, but it would be better than trying to make this decision from afar. It does help tremendously that you have previously lived in Asia. Is your wife from Korea? If so, I'm not sure if this will make HK easier to adapt to or not...maybe someone else could answer that. Another thought: do you plan to have children, and if so, when? Somthing else to consider while you're at it!
You've gotten lots of great advice and opinions...I hope this helps you make your decision. I'll bet there are people you could talk to in your area who've lived in Hk too and that will help.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Salem and Babette, thanks for your wonderful opinions and advice. I agree with all that you said regarding the differences relating to the move between the husband and wife (or vice versa, depending who's working). You both provided some tremendous insight into what it may be like, as a practical matter, for the non-working spouse in terms of adjusting to the new life without any prior connections. Babette says that it was the most trying period in her life, and you both claim it will be very difficult, but I imagine everyone who has stayed as long as they did eventually worked through these issues. I am curious to know some more details from you and others about just how, in fact, you all were able to cope with the new surroundings and what some of the things are that got you all through your issues (eg, frequent flights home, having children, dogs, language lessons, etc.). At first glance, one may always imagine the obvious novelty of the whole situation and say that that aspect alone should help the non-working partner to get through some of the boredom or dullness, but I guess what I am hearing is that at some point (maybe sooner than imagined) the novelty dissipates and such partner is left with the reality that he/she is left alone most of the time to find ways to keep him/herself occupied and interested in the new environment. Yes, my wife is from Korea, but I cannot say for sure that that alone would make all these issues go away, since HK is still not Korea although the closer proximity may lend some comfort. I can tell you from personal experience that the first few years she spent in the US were the most trying in our relationship to the point where I doubted at times that we could last. If am to dedicate much of my time to work, which I know I will (frequent business trips, etc.), I just do not know if I will be able to provide the emotional support necessary to work through another episode like the one previously described. Curious again: Do you hear of many couples breaking up due to the stresses that you describe? What are some of the horror stories/success stories? Part of the reason I consider my wife's situation so critical to the success of any move is that I am so proud of the effort she put in just to adapt to US life, and that I am so hesitant to only now (just when she has become fully accustomed to life here and is reaping the benefits of her efforts) "throw it away" in a sense and make her start anew. Let me know what you all think. Thanks.
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I would say that it is pretty easy for your wife to hook up with some native Koreans. VERY easy. Pretty vibrant community in fact. I only know more of the married with children types myself, but I know that there are plenty of married no children ladies also. Korea is only a 3.5 hour trip away. And HK lends itself very well to easy meetings (everything is pretty close) frequent trips to the mall, eating out and whatnot - so once she got hooked in it wouldn't be a problem
i too had a really hard time adjusting the first few months - knowing no one, just newly married, freaked out about being in a country that I didn't understand. However, since your wife did it once in the US, I bet a transition to Hk wouldn't be as difficult - seeing as she has already adjusted one time already and has experience with it. My first move to HK was really difficult, and I had to do a second move to Seoul which I went KICKING AND SCREAMING. I basically stopped speaking to my husband for 2 weeks because we were going, but in the end, it was fine as well. I found myself adjusting very quickly since I had already had experience adjusting one time already.
And on another note, not to generalize, but from my experience, most Korean women LOVE being in HK. The initial adjustment period is hard, but afterwards they adapt really quickly and the community is really tight. How does your wife feel about all of this at this point? Is she with you or more hesitant?
the hardest time in our marriage was not our move out here, but when my husband was laid off and I was supporting him, working, taking care of the house and for a whole year was stressed out. That put a huge strain - but we survived it. It's those struggles that strengthen relationships I believe.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
hkchoichoi, thanks for sharing your personal experiences with me. I could understand how the first few months could be the most trying and how it will likely level off after that. Were you really bitter at first about moving to Seoul, even though you are Korean, because of having to transition yet again so soon after making the transition in HK? In the end, do you think it all worked out for the better and that your experiences surpass any that could have been possible had you stayed in the US? When you say Korean women LOVE being HK, could you give me some practical pointers about the possible reasons for them liking it that much -- is it the shopping, dining out, quasi-Seoul-style urban culture? How does one go about making new acquaintance there -- do you need to join social clubs or is it as easy as knocking on your neighbor's door? Is it difficult to meet people your age (early thirties)? Any specific examples would be wonderful. At this point, my wife has been supporting the move only from my career fulfillment standpoint but admitted that she was a bit hesitant personally because she felt fully integrated here and that there may be more opportunities here for her to pursue, such as the nursing degree she is purusing now. This is not to say that she couldn't adapt to life in HK, but I think she's gotten very comfortable with the lifestyle here.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Salem and all, thanks for making this such a quality thread. This is such a wealth of information and insight from those who know best, not only for me but for everyone else who is curious about HK. I feel alot better about the adjustment my wife may need to make, based on all your reassuring experiences. It certainly seems interesting to be able to speak to and befriend so many others who are in the same "boat" but come from such diverse situations. It must be such a good feeling to have others with whom to discover the wonders of HK and share the goods and bads about life there. Could someone describe a day in his/her life in HK? I'd like to hear more from non-workers since their lives I am sure involve much more variation in time and activity. What do you all do on a typical day; how do you spend time from the moment you wake up to bedtime? Also, has anyone birthed children while in HK? If so, what is that like, and are the services as good or better than those in the West? I imagine helpers come in real handy during the post-birth months. Given that my wife and I have no children yet, we are obviously excited about the prospect of having our first, but are equally nervous being that it is our first which may only be exacerbated by the fact that it may happen in a foreign country.
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I think it would be hard to describe a typical day here; it varies with the individual just as much as anywhere else. One person may spend their day volunteering at a school, while another may shop all day! One aspect we may not have mentioned is that HK is an extremely materialistic city-to a degree of showiness and tackiness (at least to Western eyes). I am generalizing, but designers and brands are like gods here, and not just for the locals-it is contagious! Shopping is a vocation for many, and not just women.
I really know mostly families so our typical day would be very different from yours! Friends who had babies whilst living here have been very happy, though I do know some who insisted on returning to the US to give birth.
Also, I wanted to clarify that in those first few months after arrival, it is not boredom that sets in as you mentioned, but Culture shock, and homesickness and feeling isolated and disconnected. There are many excellent books and articles you can read on this subject though I'm sure that you experienced something like that when you were in Korea and your wife when she came to the US. Nothing fully prepares you for this. But as another poster said, your wife has been through this before so she will know what to expect and therefore it will probably not be as painful for her.
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But when you think about a typical day in HK, don't forget that you would certainly not need to worry about housework, laundry, ironing, or cooking which frees the non-working spouse to do big projects like studying or writing or whatever. It is good to have a plan so you don't feel lost.
PS: Just curious, for those of you who have lived in Seoul-what was that like? (One of the places my husband could go!)
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Had my first baby in HK, public system - which means no frills, very basic, and all under the price of $1000 HKD. (no joke.) I had a great and wonderful experience. i don't speak Cantonese, but it was not a problem and I had a beautiful healthy girl. I had another birth experience in Seoul which was HORRIBLE in contrast to my HK experience. My father is an Ob.Gyn and he told me that my experience in both situations were up to par although I thought my HK experience far better.
When I first got to HK, newly married, no job, I spent a lot of my time in our apartment intially. I spent a lot of time on the internet, chatting with friends, trying to articulate the difficulty I was experiencing with my move and the hard time I was having overall.
It took about three months, but I got my own routine which made me happy. It included working out in our clubhouse (a nice benefit to living in a building with decent facilities) working part time, (dependent's visa situation has changed since I was working so you may have to ask for further details on this) meeting people for lunch and keeping our house for my husband. (We did not have a helper for the first two years of living in HK.)
I made a lot of effort and developed one really close friendship. With this friend, I would go on long hikes all over HK island while our husbands slaved away in an office. It was awesome. We would pick up sandwiches, a drink, and explore all the green areas of HK, while getting some exercise. We hiked together about 4 days a week.
In the evening, some yoga, preparation of dinner, and waiting for my husband to come home. I am a very quiet person by nature, so it was a happy existence for me. On Sundays my husband and I would go to church together, and there I also developed some friendships.
The nice thing about HK, in stark contrast to Seoul, is that companies ENCOURAGE meeting of spouses and whatnot. Company parties include spouses, and friends will invite you over with your spouse. (this is NOT the case in Seoul which constantly frustrates me. I have YET to meet a single one of my husband's coworkers as all the holiday parties are done with the workers only.) So it would be very easy for your wife to meet spouses of your coworkers. (two of my close friends I met this way.)
As to why Korean women like HK so much - the pace is similar to Seoul, although it feels possibly more chaotic due to the congestion and density of people. The status of women here is also different from that of Seoul. I still feel a bit of a second class citizen in Seoul (being a woman) yet in HK, I didn't feel that degradation. But frankly, I think a lot of Korean women like HK because the tendency is to develop rather "separate" lives from their husbands, which may not be such a great thing. It is the same in Seoul - there is a circle for the husbands, and a circle for the wives, and scarcely do the circles meet. Women can have a very nice independent life in HK - husbands provide the income, work long hours, lending itself well for women to be able to pursue their passions and interests with little interference from their husbands and their husband's needs. sorry - that may be a bit cynical, but that is often the way the Korean culture is in HK. Of course you can be different - as I was, as I didn't want to be so separated from my husband. (still don't.)
shopping, as mentioned by those above, is VERY easily done here, especially catering to smaller Asian bodies. (I am NOT one of those so I had a bit of a struggle.) If one designer store doesn't have something, there is always another one waiting. THe sales are also excellent and really fun.
On another note, you were asking about how much money people spent a month - my husband and I, excluding rent, spent less than $20000 HKD a month. Our credit card hovered around $10000 and then cash and bills was the rest. THis was a very nice lifestyle for us - no pinching on the electricity, eating out, occasional movies, having lots of meat at home (my husband is also a meat eater) and inviting people over to our house for meals. It doesn't include shopping, as I didn't do much of it and if we did do any shopping, my husband and I always waited for the sales.
If it is helpful, when your wife comes, I have still quite a few good friends in HK - I'd be happy to have them meet your wife.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
hkchoichoi, babette, god, thanks for your posts. It certainly feels like my wife will have her own share of activities and acquaintances to keep her plenty busy and interested in HK life. The possibility of having a baby in HK also seems more tangible, based on your experiences. I am getting the impression that the expact community in HK is a pretty close-knit one in that everyone is sharing similar experiences and faced with similar issues and challenges. In that sense, it seems alot easier to create quality and meaningful relationships with others than if the environment was one that was really familiar and comfortable to everyone from the outset. Couple of followup questions for you all: I get the general impression that non-working spouses have more time to spend on their own, for better or for worse, because of the nature of the working environment there, which is conducive to longer hours than typically seen elsewhere. I didn't realize that people work so hard out there, although I am familiar with the general East Asian culture of devoting your life to your employer. Are the hours really long out there, even for firms or companies that are US- or other Western country-based, and how do your working partners deal with this different work culture? Also, do your working partners put in a lot of time attending company social functions like after-work drinks, dinners, parties, etc., and is that one of the attributes of work life there that causes the longer periods of vacancy from home? As far as the move is concerned from the standpoint of your future plans in general, which include family future, career future, etc., what has been the general mindset among you when moving out there? More specifically, did you all move out there with the intention or plan to move back to your countries of origin after a few years or whenever eventually, or were you mostly thinking that the life in your countries of origin would be a permanent past memory and fully committed to living in HK or Asia for the rest of your lives? How has the move to HK worked out in terms of keeping your future plans or visions intact? For instance, did any of you have to deviate from your plans to move back because it became practically impossible for whatever reason (social concerns or work concerns), or did anyone have to deviate from your plans to remain in Asia permanently because it did not turn out quite as expected for whatever reason? Did any of you deviate from your initial plan to move back and just stayed there longer than you expected because the experience far exceeded your expectations? Does anyone have any worries or concerns attached to the notion of maybe remaining in Asia or HK for the better part of their lives?
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HKChoi,
Does your husband work for an expat company/firm? Because my husband works with locals even though it is an International company, and I have had the complete and total opposite experience from you: Spouses are specifically excluded form all functions, although secretaries are invited and I have not met any spouses of my husbands coworkers, except for a few expat wives or husbands. In these several years, there has not been one party or function that I was invited to! I just thought I should provide this information since it is so opposite to your more positve experience. However, NY1 is absolutely correct that the expat community is close-knit and open to making new friends. You will easily meet fascinating and intelligent people.
NY1, As far as the work schedule goes, if you want to work as the locals do, yes, you will work long hours, and depending on your job, you may travel quite a bit. Your hours will just depend on what your coworkers do, so you would have to ask them! Most of my friends' husbands do work and travel long hours, but those who work for American companies do work less than those who work at Interntaional companies. Typical hours at local companies appear to be from around 8 or 9am (later than in the US) to 8 or 9 or even later at night. When my husband leaves work at 7 or 8pm, there are always still people there working, especially those who are single or don't have children. I don't know how this compares to Manhattan-maybe it's similar?
One thing that is different, as someone else pointed out, is that many HK workers tend to stay at work to socialize and take care of personal things like paying bills, because there apartments are small. Often they will work until 8 or 9, then go to dinner(or karaoke!) then go back to work until midnight, then come to work at 9am the next morning. But these are usually the younger single people.
To answer your question about staying longer than expected in HK: Yes, this often happens, and often you are transferred to another Asian country or somewhere else. This is something that is a common topic amongst expats: where will we be next year-and some people don't know until just a few weeks before. You will find that people can disappear in a matter of days!
But honestly, NY1, I think your extremely analytical mind is in overdrive! You really MUST make a trip here and see for yourself. You will always have more burning questions no matter what and it will go on and on. There can never be enough information and it is always a learning experience-which is what we all love about it!
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Hi babette -
hubby worked for a US firm while in HK, then for a Korean firm where they adopted a more "Korean" approach and I never met any of the coworkers there either. Now he is at a US firm in Seoul, and again I've been excluded. The very same US firm in HK still invites spouses and girlfriends and families so i'm not sure. Maybe it's the more local community?
I have to agree with Babette - Ny1 - nothing anyone else can say can replace good old fashioned visit. I have to say though, while I was engaged and my husband already in HK, I took a trip out to visit and I pretty much hated it. I was stuck in the apartment all day, and I would venture out to go to the supermarket but didnt' really do much exploring until my husband came home in the evening. I pretty much thought I was moving to the middle of nowhere and was pretty devastated most of the time.
It wasn't until I was actually living there that I tried to adjust and make it work for me. Depending on your wife's personality - it could be a short duration or a long time before she adjusts. I've discovered that I'm pretty adaptable from all my international moves and so I try to make the most of my situation rather quickly - the optimist in me helps. If your wife is an optimist and generally a positive person, she'll make it work here.
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PS: Part of the reason people work so much here is that (in my opinion) many people worship money to an extreme. Money is the religion in Hong Kong. Of course there is much more to it than that, but it is very tied into the culture. For example many people will only drive brand new luxury cars so 2 year old cars are relatively inexpensive here.
You may find that despite the longer hours, the work output is the same as in the US because of this tendency to basically "live" at work. (This has been our experience anyway.) Therefore, if your company is flexible or has a "western" work-ethic, they may not require you to put in longer hours as long as you get your work done.
There are many professional expats who prefer working abroad because they find that they actually have more freedom and independence, especially if they are far from the "main" offices. It can even be difficult for them to move back because they are not accustomed to having an actual "boss" or supervisor breathing down their neck. And some of my expat friends (and this is starting to happen to us!) are now addicted to living abroad. You might just love it, NY1!
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PPS: Buy the book "Culture Shock Hong Kong" (available on Amazon)-that will also answer some of your questions. There are many other books that could provide better insights than I can. Have you read "Gweilo?" I'm sure there are others I can't think of right now...
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amd
18 yrs ago
ny1 sounds like a 'maven' - if you read Malcolm Gladwell's book 'Tipping Point.' tends to get all the information as much as he can and know every detail before making a decision. not that it's bad. what i'm saying is you cannot possibly cram and get all your answers in this forum in a couple of days. sometimes you have to take a leap of faith! too much information could sometimes kill you, i.e. information overload. as you can see from the forum different people have varied experiences. it could go from one of the spectrum to the other end. for us it's about choices. it's up to you how to make the most out of your experiences. you could make HK your little NY in your own way though all the posts above said, it could never be replicated. you could be as involved as you want in the activities here. you can interact with the locals or don't make an effort and live parallel expatriates lives. it's all about choices. from what i could see, working for one of the largest investment banks in the world, you would definitely have a lifestyle that only local or average HK people could dream about - club memberships, huge flats (whereas the HK average is only 400 sq ft!), international schools (where annual fees can top US$ 20,000), private hospitals (i'm sure your bank sends the wives to Matilda Hospital or the like to give birth costing at least US$10,000 while locals normally go to government hospitals paying next to nothing).
i think from the financial side, it has to make sense. you need to crunch the numbers. professionally, is this a common practice in your firm? what about those who have gone through the same path? where are they now? does your company have support programs? i know that some companies even pay for the wives to attend language or culture immersion courses. once you have established the basics and comfortable with it then the next moves will be up to you and your wife...you just plan and make your choices as you go.
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ny1-So what did you decide??!! You've dropped out?
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Babette, thanks for your continued interest. I am still mulling this over based on the wealth of info included in this post. I figured I have enough info to at least decide whether I want to continue down this path. Will give you a verdict when ready. Thanks again.
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We love HK, awesome experience, great jobs, good coin, low tax, heaps of opportunity - have invested in other business ventures relatively easily, great travel, wonderful culture and vibrancy, make great friends, awesome social life - just doesn't happen at home (Oz)with two young kids, a true luxury with our wonderful helper...... but all of that we are chucking due to the sh*tty air quality. Just can't compromise the health of our kids.
We are bummed as really would prefer to stay up here, but it effects people in different ways, some people don't even notice it, but for us, we miss waking up with the birds singing, the sun on our faces, with a 'clear throat' and 'fresh' eyes!! Of course we knew before we came up here, that we wouldn't be sucking in the clean air of Sydneys northern beaches, but truly are suprised at how bad it really is.
All that said, would never have missed the opportunity to have come up here, just leaving prematurely.
Good luck with your decision
Wish we could have spent our time up here 5 years back, as has significantly worsened over the past 3 years
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ny1
18 yrs ago
popsicle, i appreciate your brutal honesty regarding the bad air conditions in HK. i truly believe you when it comes to all the positive points about living there, as have been made clear to me by many bloggers above. but, in the end, it is pretty resounding in my view to see people who truly would otherwise enjoy life there and derive so much pleasure from the positives that HK has had to offer be or "feel" forced to leave on the count of the air situation. given all the positives, i fear that eventually i may face the same decision when it comes to the welfare of me and my family, and if that is the case, i often wonder why a move would make sense in the first place since it would mean uprooting life as i know it here only to desire to return at some point. i guess perhaps that is the biggest struggle i have been experiencing with this decision.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
irisw, i am a bit surprised by your query, although it is understandable if you have seen something in a local publication that closely follows some of the posts. you can be assured that my intentions behind this thread have been solely information-gathering for my own personal decision on whether to move to HK or not. i have been seriously considering a move there, and there were not ulterior motives for the posts whatsoever, and i am certainly not a journalist or affiliated to any publications. it is possible that some publications may have found some of the material posted in this thread to be useful in their articles for whatever reason, given the quality of posts provided in this thread, which is quite rare and can very well serve as a great resource for many unfamiliar with (or familiar with, for that matter) life in HK or perspectives on HK.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
ovo, i had a hard time following the blogs in your link or tracking discussions that would be relevant to me. perhaps you can tell me about some of things that might have been missed in this thread. of course, as you say, the most helpful information at any time is information that is representative of typical life in HK with no embellishment or neatening up whatsover. thanks.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Posted by Babette (2 hrs ago)
[ Report Abuse ]
In case you never got these questions answered:
1. Yes, it really is that humid for most of the year, but winter is not. The humidity compares to Houston or Southern Florida, I'm told.
2.It is not at all laid back in Hong Kong but it is definitely urban and of course shopping, entertainment, and dining choices are very good, though maybe not as varied and as healthful as in some cities. But yes, there is plenty of meat, greasy or otherwise-you will have smaller portions of course!
3. Plenty of second-hand smoke around,(and rude smokers, some of whom are tourists) though some establishments (such as the American Club) are starting to limit smoking.
4. Hong Kong can be dirty but it can also be hyper-clean with hand sanitizers everywhere you look! It is probably the cleanest Asian city, if I'm not mistaken? It is difficult to keep mold away due to the humidity so buildings often look bad on the outside; you get used to it!
As posters have suggested in your other thread, you could always choose to live a bit outside of the city in the New Territories (for example, Sai Kung) or South HK Island (for example Stanley) or Discovery Bay (requires a ferry ride to the city) to have a sense of being more away from it all. If you live in Manhattan, these areas will seem pastoral to you!
In my opionion, HK requires some money to be happy here (especially living here with children) because you need to be able to afford a nice apartment and trips away to get out of the city from time to time. If you can afford that, you will be thrilled. You may want to go "home" in the summer when the weather is nastiest for a break from that too.
I know you are facing a dilemma and I think that many of us think about these same things.
Good luck to you...
(I am based in Hong Kong)
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ny1
18 yrs ago
Thanks Babette for your continuous support and contribution. One more important thing I forgot to ask: How is the water is HK? Is it safe to drink tap water, or do you need a filter? Showers and baths ok? How about swimming at the beaches there; is it safe to throw yourself in the seawater there?
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I know many people who drink boiled tap water here. I was not one of them = not for health but I didn't like the taste. Quite a few use the brita filter system -which is pretty common in HK. Some people do say that older buildings have possible lead in them, so perhaps drinking that is not always great. I just drank bottled water as it was more convenient.
Shower and baths fine. I remember when I first moved there- I noticed a more chlorine smell stronger than what I had experienced, but nothing significant. My baby bathed in the water just fine, and it wasn't until we actually moved to Seoul that she developed skin rashes and stuff (possible due to the water in Seoul.)
People swim in the beaches all the time, although the water is not clean like Hawaii or other beach communities. Lots of people during the summer take a "junk" boat out into more open waters and swim around in the deep blue.
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ny1
18 yrs ago
cara, i did not mean to imply anything by my question. wouldn't you think that my question is perfectly legitimate and NOT overkill, especially considering all this talk about pollution and questionable environmental practices in HK? of course, people everywhere bathe, but my question was more pointed toward finding out how people feel after a bath, as no one can deny that the "feeling" sometimes differs from place to place. i do not believe that my questions emanate from worry as much as it does from a curiosity in general about a great many things, considering that HK is not a place that was even remotely on the radar. so long as i have the time and energy to ask legitimate questions, there is not a moment that i feel has been wasted if it helps in educating me about things i could not possible know.
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are you any closer to a decision?
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ny1
18 yrs ago
i am getting there and promise to share with all once i am ready. sorry to keep you all in suspense, but i didn't want to give any hints without being certain in case any interested parties are "watching" us. i can tell it's a friday night over there, since everyone seems still to be up and active at such a late hour! glad to provide the entertainment.
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