How to cut out 5am feed?

My daughter of 18 mths does not sleep through the night. She takes her last milk feed at 8.30pm, sleep at 9pm, and sometime between 4am-6am, she would wake without fail for a milk feed before sleeping immediately again till 8am. She naps once from 12.30 to 2pm.


I have successfully cut out her 11am and 2am feeds previously but this 5am feed seems like it is here to stay. I have tried for last 6 months to not go to her when she wakes and granted, she returns to sleep without her milk but would wake every 10 minutes or so to cry until she eventually wakes up fully to begin her day at 6am! I have also tried feeding her biscuits after dinner and do cluster feeds ie milk at 7.30pm then before bed so she takes total of 9oz milk before sleep to fill her up for the night. I was told she is waking out of habit not hunger but some nights I can literally hear her tummy growling and she would wolf down 5oz of milk in record time. I tried giving her 2-3oz diluted milk at 5am and this only creates more headache for me as she would wake at 7am for a second feed before sleeping till 8.30am.


I should also add that she still sometimes wakes twice to feed but thank God, those are rare nowadays.


Should I just resign myself to the fact that she is different from other babies who sleep through? I am just at a loss what else to try. I would dearly like to hear especially from mummies whose kid(s) have difficulties sleeping through and can I hope that my child will eventually cut out night feeds all by herself as she gets older?

My first question -


how does your daughter fall asleep? Does she fall asleep on the bottle? (meaning she drops off to sleep with the bottle in her mouth?)


how does she fall asleep for her naps? On her own or with help from a bottle?


Her nap may need to be moved forward a bit - let's say from 1-3 instead of 12:30-2.


at 18 months for sure her caloric needs should be met during the day - and she should be sleeping through the night. If any of us woke up at 5 AM, we would be hungry - but generally we are in deep enough sleep that we don't catch it - so it's not hunger that is WAKING her up, although she may be hungry WHEN she wakes up. (therefore the habit not hunger comment.)


Is anything going on at 5:00 AM? Sunrise? Someone getting ready for work? SOmeone in another apartment getting ready for work?


IT would be wonderful for you to sleep through until 7 or 8. If you give me some more details I may be able to provide some additional advice.

hkchoichoi, oh yes please do provide the light- at-the-end-of-the-tunnel for me as I am in desperate need to sleep through myself.


Alright, she sleeps / naps without dummy or bottle. After I give her her milk feed, she would hand me the bottle fully awake, get up and play with me for max of 30 minutes until she does her third yawn and rubs eyes. I would then tell her she needs to get down onto her mattress to "close eyes and sleep" (she sleeps on the mattress next to our queen bed). She is good at that and most nights would fall asleep herself after some major tossing and turning to find a comfy position. Same for naps - helper would give her milk, play a bit with her, shut her own eyes at onset of sleepy look and my daughter would follow suit.


What is the reasoning for moving her naptime later, may I ask? It is just that if she sleeps later at 1pm, she would wake 2.30-3pm which means she would be hard to settle for bed at night. Took me a long long time to bring her bedtime forward from 10-ish to 8.30-9pm and I would like to keep to this early bedtime if possible 'cos I was told not to overtire her before bed.



As to what is going on at 5am, I don;t think there are any noise from upstairs and hubby is still in dreamland (only get up at 8am). Further, we use blackout curtains so no light would come through. No traffic noise either since we moved home.


Someone suggested I give water or juice when she wakes. I did try water before but she chokes so badly. In the end I give her very watered down milk but this doesn't solve the problem as she would wake me a second time at 6-7ish for a drink before sleeping till 8am.


HELP!!

hello mummybee1,


if you observe that she is seriously hungry when she gets up for this feed, perhaps you want to review her daytime diet? is she drinking and eating enough? i'm no expert but at this stage, anything is worth a try!

hmmmm...

it's just that if she is sleeping until 8 - and then going to bed at 8:30 - generally you want to put the big nap right in the middle of it. You're putting the big nap closer the wakeup time instead of the bedtime. It's just a thought. you may have to play around with it a bit. you may want to experiment to see what happens?


I definitely do think it was good for you to bring her bedtime forward to 8:30, as a bub her age does need lots of sleep and rest - and you want them to get close to an 11 hour stretch.


She is sleeping in the room with you which makes it a bit trickier in terms of setting limits and teaching her to sleep on her own with out assistance. (meaning it's noisier for husband and you and some typical methods can't really apply.)


I think we should address the hunger issue first since you seem to think she may be seriously hungry. How much milk does she drink a day? AT 18 months, it should be around 400 mls - if she is drinking more than that, it may be putting her off of solids, which should be making up a bigger part of the diet at this point. (a major part.) How much milk? Does she have a solid protein meal? When?


Biscuits before bed would possibly cause a sugar drop actually making her HUNGRIER when she woke up instead of less hungry. (do you ever notice that when you eat late in the night you wake up hungrier the next day?) I would say to cut all foods and milk after 7:30 PM. Don't try and overfeed her before her bedtime as it may actually be causing her to be hungrier.


WE're going to have to play around with this one a bit - hear what other people have to say.

Hi hkchoichoi and Wheelymate,


just to let you know that my daughter has slept through. Since she has done this for a continuous 9 days, I reckon I can pop the champagne and OFFICIALLY declare this LOL.


I sorta follow your advice, hkchoichoi, and stop giving her the pear biscuits. Although it contains no added sugar (I baked myself), the natural sugar of the pear might very well make her hungrier. I did however give her sugarless allergy-free rice sticks or boiled rice at about 8pm which she would wolf down quickly. I decided to give her 'cos I think she is genuinely hungry. There is likely not enough protein in her diet. If you know me in past threads you will know she is allergic to many foods so her diet is not ideal; neither is her milk 'normal' as she is drinking a specialised milk that is like BM ie easily digestable. Then before bed, I coax her to finish 9oz milk.


The first night, she cried very loudly and for very long but I was so tired and I just told her to go back to sleep - she eventually did sleep on her own. Surprisingly, the next night, she woke up started to cry but promptly slept again when I told her there is no milk and it is still night. After two nights, that was it! She still wakes at 5-ish but only to stir and slept again till 8am.


Didn't change her naptime. It is funny how my daughter needs her nap closer to wakeup time. I was baffled by this myself but she actually brings her bolster into room saying "sleep, sleep" precisely 4.5 hours after she wakes every day. After her precise 40+40min nap, she will stay up for precisely 7hrs before bedtime. She is such a routine baby since birth that hubby and I decide she is our clock in the home.


thanks again for your advice and suggestions...

HEY CONGRATS Mummybee!


that's awesome. Just be consistent - and if it does occur again, state that there is no milk, and she will go to sleep.


I know about your crazy allergy problems - are there not good protein sources for her? I know her list of allergies is really long - but legumes and brown rice is a great source of complete protein - and would fill her up. I'm trying to think of a good protein based snack before bed - but I can't remember all the things your daughter is allergic to - I know dairy and soy were some of them...


Every baby is different - if she needs the nap closer to wakeup, and she asks for it, give it to her. She knows her body best! I hope you are getting some good sleep and rest.

Day 10 still sleeping through - hurray! This is despite the fact that my husband mistakenly turned on the heater full blast last night and nearly fried all of us up - silly daddy.



What is she NOT allergic to? I am having a headache just thinking of it. She is not allergic to chicken and turkey, so these become her protein staple. I am hoping all poultry is ok so will try duck,pigeon,quail soon. She can take lamb but gosh, the amt of saturated fat it has despite thorough cleaning! incidentally, I heard lamb has no nutritional value - is this correct and as it is so high in trasn fat it is not suitable for children. Correct?


She canNOT take pork, beef and fish (we tried salmon against allergist's advice and big big mistake as she has flareup after flareup).


We haven't tried legumes as per allergist's caution as they are high in the list of allergenic foods. For vegs, she can only take asparagus, pok choy (great in calcium i heard), carrot, zucchini. She can't take spinach, cauliflower/broccoli, kale.


For carbs, I give her plain white rice (not big fan of brown) and pumpkin - this is also good to fill her up right? She takes millet and quinoa. She cannot take potato/sweet potato.


For fruits, she can eat pear, plum,... that is it! she cannot take apple, banana, berries, kiwis, grapes, the list is growing. Thank God she still poo-poo every day.


She is allergic to the normal foods like eggs, gluten (wheat and oatmeal thus far tried), soya, cow/goat milk.


Since her birth, I NEVER take food for granted, and I always look in envy at other kids eating off their parent's plate, eating ice-creams and yummy biscuits....that is why I delay having baby no 2 cos of this fear that it will happen all over again.


Today I got up at 8am with her and gosh I have never felt so good with 10 hrs uninterrupted sleep - my first in 19 months, I daresay!!

Just curious -


are YOU not the fan of brown, or your daughter? Because brown rice, if you can give it to her, will be more nutritious and more filling than the white. White simply breaks down to simple sugar and doesn't really have the staying power of brown. NO barley? Can she take barley? It will also have more staying power and more nutrition. Give the extensive maddening list above, everything that she CAN eat, she should eat with the idea of getting as much nutrition as possible.

I know a lot of people don't love the texture of brown, BUT it can be a acquired taste. It also requires a pressure cooker to be made well - but I would say that in your case it would probably be a good investment. There is a way to get your daughter acclimated to the taste of brown -if you are open minded to trying brown, I will explain it to you.


Is salmon the only fish you tried? Not that you want to risk it - I'm sure. But I'm thinking perhaps a white flakier fish might be better? Cod? Haddock? Rock Cod? Halibut?


She definitely can't have tofu with the soya milk allergy - I've never heard that legumes were high on the list of allergic foods - WOW! You're really stuck. Since she can take it, I would probably up her intake of proteins to help her in the evening - and try and avoid her low sugar rush in the early morning. BUt it sounds like you are getting TONS of sleep and you must feel so fabulously well rested. GREAT WORK!

Both really, hkchoichoi. I don't fancy giving brown to her as it is my personal opinion that granted, brown has more nutrition and lots of fibre and whilst it is great for adults, there may be a tad too much fibre for baby's young intestine to handle. I do mix a few grains with her white rice.


Have bought barley grains, in fact, and will boil for her to drink cos I have heard barley is cooling and thus gd for eczema? but not hopeful cos she did react to (2 teasps) oatmeal quite badly and given barley and oatmeal share gluten, the primary allergen source, I am crossing my fingers.


With fish, burnt once twice shy esp since allergist has warned not to give any form of fish to her. Apparently, fish allergy doesn't occur until 3 (like peanut allergy) and giving fish to under 3 who doesn't have fish allergy may very well MAKE him/her allergic to fish! How scary is that?? In any case, allergist said to wait till 2 so that is not long to go.


There are so many things to try but I always have to adhere to the 3 day (we modify to 5) and wait-till-rash-is-completely-gone-before-trying-next-food rules so it is a long and careful process of food introduction and elimination.


BTW, sleepthrough day 11 and she didn't even stir at 5-ish...or was it me the deadlog?

good for you and the baby. AS long as she's sleeping -what more could you want? Once sleep gets better settled - then perhaps health wise she will also get better - or at least you will have even more patience to deal with her very complicated health issues.


I'm a huge fan of brown rice -the fiber may be good for her since she can't take that many fruits and veggies. But it sounds like you're mixing a few grains in - that's good. The main problem with white is that it just goes straight into sugar - so it doesn't have that extra edge of nutrition. My daughters only eat brown - and the younger one was in NICU at birth - but she loves it and would rather eat that. Koreans have a "Sweet brown rice" (hyun mi chapsahl) which is supposedly very very good nutrtion. (My grandfather was one of the foremost natural nutritionists in Seoul before passing away.) SO I try and follow his lessons for food - he passed away at a VERY old age, considering that genetically he was predisposed to diabetes and whatnot. He never developed it...


Flaxseed oil is supposedly amazing for eczema. I have a girlfriend whose daughter is allergic to RICE and GRASS - and she's had some decent luck with it. Have you tried? Or has your daughter had a reaction to that as well?


I can't imagine being in your position - and my heart goes out to you. But keep trying - we only do our best. OFtentimes babies outgrow these allergies - we can only hope right?