Has anyone else been suffering stress from the traditional attitudes of HK guys? I am getting sick and tired of patronising remarks from men I do kickboxing and JiuJitsu with. For example: "I can't go too hard on you because you're a girl", "It's a shame there aren't more girls in the class for you to work with", "Pair up with someone of the same size... and gender", "Come on you bunch of ladies" (as a wind up to unfit guys). I also get a lot of c**p from guys on the pool table! If I let people know how much it ticks me off I end up feeling like a whining feminist, but the persistant sexism strikes me as very backwards. I don't look down on asian guys for being smaller and weaker than westerners, so why do they feel it's alright to do it to me? Or should I start?!
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jessdingding,
it seems you are one muscular testosterone filled woman and bit frustrated with asian guys.
Asian guy may be shorter in height than western guy..but definitely NOT weaker.
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788
19 yrs ago
Monicasydney... How can you tell whether JDD is muscular testosterone filled and not infact very sexy, curvacious woman from the above sports?
Jessdingding, its a shame that guys talk like that to you. They are insecure, I would say, to see you be able to compete with them and be able to interfere with their comfort zone of feeling physically superior.
Perhaps you should tell them that you have more brains than they do, to make up for difference in strength.
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Haha!
Correct, I am very frustrated with Asian guys (some western guys too who seem to have forgotten what century we live in) for the above reasons.
From my experience, Western guys ARE bigger and stronger but when you are training, no one worries about that and everyone treats each other the same... except women that is!
PS. I enjoyed the stereotype about girls who do sport as being "muscular testosterone filled women".
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jessdingding,
its pathetetic of you to say all asian guys are weak.im white and married to HK guy and my hubby is NOT definitely weak.
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I'm not pathetetic! All my boyfriends were Asian or Eurasian. My first boyfriend who was Chinese could bench press 80 kg and he's lighter than me. Definitely not weak! My current boyfriend is also a Hongkonger (he's pretty puny). Of course my statement is an unfair sweeping generalisation. The same kind of generalisation people always make about women in sports.
Ask your hubby if he thinks women are generally smaller and weaker than men.
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In general when you do combatative sports you should always be gentle and cautious not to injure ANYONE.
Of course guys (and girls) will always underrate women in sports whether they say so or not which is inevitable. That's not the problem. It's the patronising remarks that are offputting and upsetting me.
Anyway, what's with all the "testosterone" and "steroid" remarks?? Am I only allowed to post about "what colour eye make-up suits me best" for fear of being too butch? So what if I were strong and muscular?? As it is, I'm wobbly and womanly (so if you want some more accurate put-downs you should call me flabby or tell me all my manly pink dresses look rubbish on me)!
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Or perhaps they are just scared of getting their butts kicked, in front of their mates, by a "girl"...!
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jessdingsing,
in every species whether its dog,horse,elephant,lion or human..male is physically stronger and bigger.Nature has made it like that.
if you doubt my statement,go and ask any doctor or any biologist about it.
asian guys are taught to respect and be gentle with women,elderly and children.you either appreciate their culture or take it as chaunistic attitude.
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Like I said, there's a difference in physique between different races as well, but to generalise and discriminate is unfair because everyone has the right to be judged on their own individual merit. Or should I just smile and thank guys who talk to me like an inferior/imbicile and make sexist remarks???
Even on the pool table, men talk down to me. I've reached the point where I snap at every guy who passes the slightest innocent comment about my game!
NB. You should be respectful and gentle to everyone, not just to people you consider smaller or weaker than you?!
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"in every species whether its dog,horse,elephant,lion or human..male is physically stronger and bigger.Nature has made it like that."
You've never seen spiders, or wood frogs, or many caterpillers, or eagles, or dotterel plovers, or deep sea anglerfish, or spotted hyena, etc? Most insects, fish and birds show female-biased sexual size dimorphism. It's how nature intended...
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As I said before, I hope people are cautious not to hurt me if I am doing a combatative sport with them. Likewise I will hold back more if I am fighting someone smaller than me. That's not an issue. It's the prejudiced remarks: If for example someone in your workplace repeatedly made comments about white people not being as smart as asians or something like that, you would think it was unnacceptable, right?
I take my sports quite seriously. Sometimes though I've not wanted to train because the sexism is so annoying. For example I'll be forced to work with other girls who are unsuitable partners for me (different size/level etc) when there are more suitable men at hand for them to pair up with.
Could it possibly be all the sexist remarks that have given me an inferiority complex??? I know other girls who also feel annoyed about this issue. I think we need a better atmosphere/attitude where sportswomen can improve and succeed. It will happen eventually, it's just a matter of how long it takes. If you don't think that's important then go perm your eyelashes or something!
NB. I'm pretty mediocre held up against my male counterparts who do the same sports as me. I'm definitely not the worst/inferior though... or particularly small. Butch testosterone steroid woman me!
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Wow.
And I thought girls stuck together.
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This is really interesting. I found out that I am actually a bit sexist too subconsciously:
http://www.understandingprejudice.org/asi/
http://www.understandingprejudice.org/asi/faq.htm
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"As I said before, I hope people are cautious not to hurt me if I am doing a combatative sport with them. Likewise I will hold back more if I am fighting someone smaller than me. That's not an issue. It's the prejudiced remarks: If for example someone in your workplace repeatedly made comments about white people not being as smart as asians or something like that, you would think it was unnacceptable, right?"
Please read what I already said above. Thankyou.
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jessdingding,
you really have some problem there.
i would suggest you take vacation to some village in mainland china and take some Stephen chow's moovies cd/dvd and chill out there,may be your sanity will return.
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you go girl...
or is that not the right thing to say ???
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Gee you're right. Those guys have every right to talk down to me. I'm only a fragile, disadvantaged woman after all. What am I even thinking of doing martial arts?? I should stick to ladylike activities like cookery and ballroom dancing. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways!
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What a brilliant thought. If we apply it on a larger scale, we can tell all the filippinos in HK who are underpaid and discriminated against to put up with it or just go back home instead of speaking out.
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Jess> You must understand that the most fragile thing in the world, more fragile than a butterfly's wing or gossamer floating on the wind, is the male ego. Martial arts and pool tables are considered male domains - at least by males. You are intruding into their domains and the only way they can "fight back" is to put you down. But they are not really trying to put you down, just keep themselves up, the dears.
Don't get me wrong, I love men. But part of loving them is tiptoeing around their egos.
Next time the instructor balks at pairing you up with a male, just smile knowingly and say "yes, of course, we wouldn't want to embarrass anyone". And let it go...
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Indeed. Have you ever seen a Chris Rock video? I'm quite a fan. He has a big chip on his shoulder as well when it comes to being a black man. Come to think of it, Martin Luther King had a bit of a chip on his shoulder too. And Emmeline Pankhurst probably.
NB. I'm disappointed to hear so few constructive arguments (like Claire's) from the ladies on this forum, and so many offensive, flippant and personal comments. If that's the best we can manage then we probably DO deserve to be treated like inferiors. Do we want to live up to that "catty" and "bitchy" stereotype now?
PS. To Monica Sydney (who I think is a man): WHATEVER!
Hehehehehehhehe
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D-Man
19 yrs ago
This is one of the more interesting threads on the site in a while. I have enjoyed reading it even though i am not supposed to comment on it (sorry cant resist).
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Huh? I just ignored a whole string of personal remarks without retaliating, and when I finally respond I'm "jumping down people's throats"?? That's a bit harsh.
I did scroll through the comments before to see if anyone had written any interesting arguments against mine. Just4laughs was probably the only one who did, although she was a little bit personal, but okay fine. I am actually trying to have a discussion here not a slanging match. As such, if someone disagrees with me, I will then counter with my own argument again. Thus continues the whole debating process; that's not acting like a schoolgirl?? In fact, I am often happy to change my views when someone presents a good argument to me, so I'm still hoping for some thoughtful posts opposing my point of view not riddled with personal remarks. Perhaps people's own ideas or personal experiences?
NB. I'm just happy whenever I see women on the forum talking about something other than their appearance!
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jdd, if u ask me, i wouldn't take offense on "I can't go too hard on you because you're a girl", "It's a shame there aren't more girls in the class for you to work with", "Pair up with someone of the same size... and gender" .... i would see it as they want to pair with someone of the same "size/weight" which they could psychologically feel less cautious/tensed when they give out a punch. but then of course, it all depends on the tone, if he sounds like a jerk, i probably will tell him straight in his face in a polite way that i do not appreciate his comment.
"Come on you bunch of ladies".... if it bothers you so much, you should talk to the instructor(s) or the management of the club.
i don't know about you, but i think a lot of the times u can't rely on "evolution", "modern times" "feminist movement..." for how you want to be treated. i am not the type who thinks i need to be bitchy to be respected, and i have very macho male friends and work in a male-dominant environment.
it's up to you, how you respond to them, how you want to make yourself "feel" about the incidents/remarks. you do have control about the situation, in a cool and collect manner.
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Interesting post.
I get arsey about the whole "Pair up with someone of the same size... and gender" thing because I usually end up paired with a girl half my size (it's hilarious seeing me work with my friend in the gym who's 20kg lighter than me). Often there are other lighter guys in the class she could work with. I kind of understand guys' attitude even if I disagree, but I'm a bit shocked by how little they try to hide it. I usually try to hide my prejudices (funny little story about that below to lighten up the atmosphere).
I've gone out of my way a bit to avoid some of the small girls in my class so that noone expects me to work with them, but I must come across to them as being a really anti-social b****. Bit of a shame.
My friend's mum is from UK and married to a black Carribean dude. My friend likes to tell the story about how her mum met her step-dad in jail. Usually people say "what did he do" because he's black, and then she delivers the punch line that they were both prison officers. My initial reaction though was "wow what did your mum do?" which my friend thought was hilarious! Well, I really wondered!
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I think you sound like a strong, confident woman who knows very well how to express herself. So why aren't you saying these things in class and putting an end to this?
I think you should start picking out your next “victim/partner” in your kickboxing and JiuJitsu class and tell the fella (post-pummeling) that he hits like a girl..
Bravo too for your great responses.
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Hello Jessdingding... I agree with Claire and think for your own peace of mind just ignore them and let it go.
You've said that your martial arts is very important to you, so why let others ruin it for you? It's their own egos and insecurities that are marring your experience.
I trained in wushu for a few years with some of the world's best wushu athelets (and I mean 8-time world champions). I have a very small build (where the guys could circle my entire waist with their hands) and am a total girly-girl. While I was good at what I did, I had to accept that I could never be one of the boys. Because of my light weight, and that I wear matching pink training gear (think Gabrielle Solice in Desperate Housewives), the men that I trained with (and the professional women as well as some amateur women in the club) have all said things to me that could very well have been taken to be 'discriminatory' or 'put-downish'. I had to fight to be taught certain routines because the coach didn't believe that I would be able to take it. The boys were very gentle whenever they trained with me for fear of 'breaking my limbs like twigs'.
However, I don't think they meant for their comments or actions to be offensive or sexist. Rather, I suspect that they didn't know how to react to a very feminine thing in an otherwise masculine domain. People don't know how to deal with things different to them. I love being a woman and I love my pink diamontes, but at the same time I also love my martial arts - so I do it my way and let everything else slide.
And if you really can't stand it anymore, you should just 'give him one' next time a man doubts your abilities. Show him that you're just as good as him in the game and 'accidentally' whack him where it hurts... :-)
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jessdingding,
if i dont agree with you,then i become a MAN for you..so much for your IQ.
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Yes I am low IQ, testosterone-filled, pathetic, insane woman. Thank you for noticing.
I enjoyed Helinski's story, thanks for sharing it. You can really relate to my feelings, although it's even harder for a tiny woman. My friend who used to do Wushu and now does JiuJitsu is a bit similar- very tiny but deadly!
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Give them a good punch. That will make them think straight and keep them quiet and away from making stupid comments. Joking, only half though. Oops, maybe that's a bit of a hard stand.
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I don't think that applies only to Asian men, in my experience! But at the end of the day surely what other people say about you only tells you about their thinking, not about yours...you know what you think about you. So their remarks may be culturally inappropriate to you but it reflects their thinking, not yours so just get on with enjoying what you enjoy and remember it's about them, not you, it's unlikely getting upset will do much to change them.
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When I beat a (white) guy at pool the other day he went back to his friends and said "Oh man, I just got beaten by a girl".
So what? It's not like I was arm wrestling him!
Then when I played another guy, he said "wow, you played really well" and I snapped back "for a girl"! Poor guy was just trying to be nice! As you say though, getting upset doesn't solve anything.
I've got to say, my Chinese ex did have a really strange attitude towards women (eg. all his girlfriends had to be virgins but he was allowed to try it on with whoever he wanted before and DURING our relationship). I really hope that's not the typical Asian man?!
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I learnt a while ago that the things people say and do only tell you something about THEMSELVES, not about you, however the flip side is that it's your reaction that tells you about your own thinking. Maybe your feelings of being 'got at' need some attention, you are unlikely and actually not entitled to try and change others thoughts and beliefs, only your own so now may be a good time to work on that self-esteem! :)
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HK1,I ALREADY SAID MY REACTION WAS A BIT OTT; but your post makes it sound like I punched someone in the face for looking at me in the wrong tone of voice?! Thanks for the online pyscho-analysis though, I really appreciate it.
Usually I grin and bear such remarks, but surely occasional sarcasm or a vent on a forum is a healthy, normal way to channel your feelings?!
Or should I opt for the roaring rampage of revenge next time?
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Thanks HKBlue, I work in a male-dominated area so had to learn to deal with the "little lady" comments many moons ago, if you're smart you can poke fun at a lot of guys without them realising, you just need to keep your sense of humour, which JDD definitely has, gal your comments are great you're obviously pretty smart so I'm sure you can quietly tease them a bit without anyone losing face, or their cool!
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Taps
19 yrs ago
Jessdingding, just continue what you like to do.
And I shall continue reading about "forum on beauty".
Good luck.
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I made a big old breakthrough yesterday actually.
I was talking to one of the guys who teaches at my gym, and I said that I had experienced a bit of sexism which was upsetting me. At first he kept responding defensively "you must be a feminist", and wouldn't let me explain myself. Eventually once I got him to listen to my argument he and his friends realised that I had a point. I was promised therefore that there would be more effort to encourage a positive training environment for myself and the other girls who wanted to practise Jiujitsu seriously.
Everyone agreed with me that some people had a disrespectful attitude towards girls in my gym (eg. shouting "let's throw some jello over them" while girls are wrestling is not original or clever)! However, there's nothing you can do but rise above it... and call them a w***er behind their back.
Anyway, I'm really happy, I hope this means progress. Hooray!
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One thing baffles me actually: If I were accidentally caught making a prejudiced comment (eg. that's so gay!), especially in front of someone it offended, I would feel quite sheepish and try to backtrack.
However, whenever someone is chided for making a sexist remark etc, instead of being embarrassed, they often give a list of reasons why sexism is fine and start berating those "uptight feminists"! I find this very weird.
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Totty
19 yrs ago
I think it is, unfortunately, something you have to live with.
Men have always been brought up and told that they are the 'great ones' and it's hartd for some of them as they don't like to 'lose face' in front of their mates and they don't want to look 'soft', so Jessdingding i'd learn to live with it, shut off from it and not waste anymore energy on it and let your arms, legs, whetever do the talking and if they wanna be mre gentle on you then let them, you just give them your full force.
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Hi jessding - I laughed reading this.
I was just commenting today about how pathetic some asian girls I know are and how they totally play into the whole women are the weaker sex and can't break a nail and must always make men look big and strong like their heros!
So you know there are definate roles being played out in this culture and I don't think you can change centuries of thinking just by being an exception to the rule when most women here are physically weak in my experience of them so far.
I have a slight build but can lift a lot and men just stare when they saw me today carrying an obviously heavy load as I was moving house.
I find the males here way too feminine on average although I have seen lots of exceptions to the rule.
Men cannot change as a culture unless women actually forced them to, and not with anger but with quiet determination to show just how strong we are while maintaining the feminine side of us.
I love men......I am in no way a feminist I love the differences we have and celebrate the different sides of us. But I also know I can pretty much do anything I put my mind to physically unless it's really extreme.
Men when they get into groups at gyms and the testosterone is pumping become quite pathetic really about a women, there's this whole pack mentality that reverts them into teenage boys again and the need to be alpha male and win attention comes over them.
And for goodness sake when the women in their twenties are still wearing mickey mouse and playing with Hello Kitty they make us all look like a bunch of silly little things. ( again plenty of exceptions I'm just exagerrating to make a point.)
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men are men and women are women...irrespective of racial background.
stop bashing asian guys..if you dont like asia ,you are free to move out.
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So sexism is okay but racism is bad?
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V. interesting thread! Do you think Mumof2boys was making racist generalizations, or do you think she may well be Chinese/Asian herself, hence the,"..they al make us look like a bunch of silly little things."? I hope, for her sake, it's the latter, as otherwise that's a whole new can of worms being opened on cultural gender issues!!!
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Mumof2boys' post must have gotten quite a few little smiling nods of agreement, but certainly touched on some very delicate cultural gender issues which I am going to leave well alone. I'll not slander Hello Kitty.
My own Hong Konger boyfriend is incredibly scathing about the local population to a degree which even I find offensive. I'm white and if I were to do the same I certainly wouldn't get away with it.
I'd like to explain that on my part, I had no intention of bashing Asian men, so I apologise if it came across that way. In fact I was trying to demonstrate how unfair stereotyping is by comparing the obviously unfair "weak Asian male" stereotype to the equally unjust "weak woman" equivalent.
Manica Sydney, would you be able to explain more what you mean when you say "women are women and men are men"?
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QUote " Has anyone else been suffering stress from the traditional attitudes of HK guys? "
This is not bashing Asian men, this is spitting on HK guys when you got upset from your experience with some HK men in the gym......
Hey girl, sexism and traditional attitudes of HK guys are two different issues.
No doubt in HK there are sexists. But no need to take things so negatively all the time. Moreover, English is not HK guys' mother tongue, some speak simple english that might not sound so proper or pleasant to your ears. "I can't go too hard on you because you're a girl"; "It's a shame there aren't more girls in the class for you to work with", "Pair up with someone of the same size and gender" If they didnt say it in an intentionally bad sense, just based on the words and past experience, I might interpret these as being normally considerate,
I have made an experiment, a strong foreign man shook hand with foreign/asian men + women with the same strength - almost all women reacted immediately " ouch, it hurts" and only a few men say " hey man, you got strong handshake". This strong guy adjusted his handshake from then on and he said no women complaint anymore.
Let's say you make generalisation based on your experience. Guys can also make generalisation based on their experience. Most asian girls are not strong built as men and so guys probably are used to adjust themselves for that. I dont play weak but I appreciate guys who try to adjust themselves according to the partner.
And I heard guys do this to avoid women complaining about them being insensitive to her needs. But in you case, they got slapped left and right...
Monica Sydney, I totally understand what you said "women are women and men are men".
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Very valid points. Yes you are right, I shouldn't single out just HK guys to pick on. I should say "some guys in Hong Kong" simply because because that's where I live, so that's where my experiences happen.
I also appreciate guys (and girls) who try to adjust themselves according to their training partner, but as I said before 2 or 3 times now:
"As I said before, I hope people are cautious not to hurt me if I am doing a combatative sport with them. Likewise I will hold back more if I am fighting someone smaller than me. That's not an issue. It's the prejudiced remarks..."
I can also believe men will make generalisations based on their experience, and that you are correct to say
"Most asian girls are not strong built as men and so guys probably are used to adjust themselves for that."
But I've gotta say you wouldn't look at me and think "tiny weakling"!
Your "experiment" sounds feasable too. Also, as you said, it must be confusing for guys who fear women complaining about insensitivity to their needs, and who then come across a whingeing gweimui that expects to be treated as an equal.
It may be that, as mumof2 controversially asserted, women in HK are very fond of their traditional gender roles and love being treated like "ladies" (a quality which many men say they find endearing about Asian girls). Until this changes, freaks like me may have to accept being tarred with the same brush. However, we are entitled to get irate about it! It's like a less extreme scenario comparable with an African American not being able to get a cab in New York! Or tailors assaulting me all the way around TST because they think I'm a frikkin' tourist!
However "men are men and women are women" still seems to me to be a part-truth which (excepting the most obvious anatomical differences) is a result of conditioning rather than nature.
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I dont think hong kong guys are responsible for some african-americans not getting cab in New York.
jessdingding,GET A LIFE!
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You may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.
Good argument you put forward there though, I'm going to have trouble thinking up a comeback for that one.
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