Posted by
notyou
18 yrs ago
I saw an article in SCMP which said that NET teachers often feel unwelcome in the local schools. Why is that?I heard there is a NET teacher's association.Can anyone tell me about it? Thank you.
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aemom
18 yrs ago
The term NET in this case means teachers who are hired under the Native-speaking English Teachers Scheme through the Education and Manpower Bureau.
The current NET scheme started in 1998 when the government tried to pacify parents who were upset that most secondary schools were returning to "mother tongue" teaching by placing one native speaker in each secondary school. After a few years, bigger schools had the option to hire an additional NET. A NET scheme in primary schools was started about 5 (?) years ago, but there was a shortage of PNETs so most of them had to teach in two schools. So, most NETs are the only foreigners in their schools. Sometimes local colleagues are resentful of the 'special allowance' or lower amount of committee work, etc etc etc. Or maybe the NET has come into the school and told everyone how they should be teaching....
The association - NESTA - has about 200+ members of about 800 NETs currently employed under the scheme.
You can read all about it at:
http://www.emb.gov.hk/index.aspx?langno=1&nodeID=262
http://www.nesta.com.hk/
http://www.west-web.net/pnet/
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewforum.php?f=40
I know you posted elsewhere about part-time work. I've never heard of a part-time job in this scheme.
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Thanks Saikunga and aemom. No wonder the article I read said about 25% of the NET teachers were not renewing their contracts. It said some had disagreements with the staff or principals but the pollution and the inability to get their schools into schools was also a problem.
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Do you mean that the teachers are unfriendly to the children?Thanks so much.
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I know someone who is a NET teacher. They have been signed on a 2 year contract but are leaving after a year because there is no job satisfaction and it is very boring. The local teachers never bother to tell them what is going on in the school and the teaching methods the local staff use are very very old fashioned. They are not interested in quality teaching and don't seem to care about the kids.
I have heard from many people that being a NET teacher is rubbish.
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Judging from your other post, the PNET / NET scheme is not for you. It is a F/T job with its ups and downs working in a local environment with very different expectations from International and Western schools. Some primary schools have a budget to hire a NET as opposed to an EMB NET and this could be a P/T position. Take your time and you may just find something.
I would go for International Schools or ESF but I have no real experience of this area. There is also voluntary work with really poor kids available through some of the charities.
Alternatively you could look at adult ESL teaching with the British Council?
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Thanks everyone. Fennel, I appreciate your views. It's really too bad, especially for the kids. Lambada, thanks! Hm, I'm not familiar with the British Council and wonder if it'd be during the day or in the evenings as most adult ESL jobs are unless you have a Master's degree, which I don't. I have a half completed one though. I like to be creative, so it sounds like the NET jobs wouldn't allow for that. I wonder if there are any daytime jobs for teaching ESL which pay decently.
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Thanks everyone! This thread reminded me of when I told a vet that I wanted to become a vet and he told me to become a lawyer instead because you get more respect and more pay. So, instead of becoming a NET teacher, I'm afraid I will leave that to those who don't know better. I thought people in HK were more Westernized than it appears.
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Does anyone know how it works with the EMB giving schools the budget for hiring teachers?
My husband is being directly hired by a school (after 6 months of working through an agency) and I was wondering what he should ask for/expect i.e. salary, housing allowance etc
Thanks!
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xox
18 yrs ago
Well said Miss P! I am a NET under the EMB and feel exactly the same. So many NETs are in the same situation.
Daddy Long Legs- I'd like to see how you'd cope as a Westerner in this environment!
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I agree. I am also a NET hired by the EMB to work in a local Chinese school. All I can say is that it takes thick skin to do this job. You can't imagine how often you are insulted, ingnored, gossiped about, etc unless you have been in the same type of situation.
I worked at an international school for a number of years before joining the NET scheme and I have regretted it tremendously. Simply put: the working environment can be terrible.
As soon as you say anything back or take any offense you are blacklisted. So picture everyday you go to work and somebody always has something to say (most times in Chinese and then nobody fills you in) about: what you are wearing, eating for lunch, etc. It starts to wear thin after awhile. What is it with locals in HK. I think they like to give it, but can't take it or deal with the confrontation they started by saying something offensive in the first place. There is definite resentment from local teachers to the point of acting like children. At the end of the day, we (NETs) are here to provide a service that cannot be done by a local..simple as that! The local teachers (Lets) complain all the time about the special allowance received by Nets, not having to attend countless meetings conducted in Chinese, not working on Saturdays, and feel that Nets have money to burn they make so much!! If the EMB did not provide any incentives why would anyone in their right mind do this job? You can earn as much working at a good kindergarden as with the Net scheme. It's definitely not at the high end of salary squale for teachers in HK. So before you call other people arrogant, take a look at yourself! Easy to sit back and pass judgement on something you know nothing about.
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xox
18 yrs ago
Daddy Longs Legs: You really have no clue!
We're here because we're trying to help the poor kids! They are a pleasure to teach! I feel sorry for them sitting in rows in a class of 38-40, listeninig to the endless teacher talk and drilling by the local teachers on a microphone. It's absolutely awful!
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DLL,
I cope as well! However I find it hard to hold my tongue when I see people defending such unprofessional and childish behavious often displayed by local teachers towards Nets (Especially coming from a Net if you are in fact one??).
I do provide a great learning environment for my students. I am a professional. I go to work everyday and do my best, regardless of how I feel.
Unlike the local teachers who just won't show up for the lesson if they are angry with me, I leave my feelings outside the classroom and focus on the job at hand.
I don't b*tch about anything at work, I do my job to the best of my abilities and try to fly under the radar as best as possible, to avoid possible confict. So according to your logic, Nets should take all sorts of childish abuse and treatment with a big stupid perma-smile?? All because we are being given benefits entitled to us, and don't act like something we're not...ie a local teacher (sleeping at my desk, staying until all hours just to be scene leaving late, etc. )
I think it's you who is doing Net teachers a diservice by defending this type of treatment going on all over HK. The Net scheme is a lottery. Some hit the jackpot and have great schools, most however find themselves in situations were many have come and gone before them and they will soon figure out why!
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Miss P, Do you mean the locals don't care if their English is incorrect?
Daddy Long Legs, are you married to a local or were you born in HK and moved away? Please tell us how you have more insights or was it just because of a book you read?
Even if people resent us, why in the world would they talk about other people's clothes, etc.? I do find the local people here are a bit odd that way as the SCMP will mention how fat someone is, etc. when that has no effect or relevance to the story. I've been here nearly 4 years and am often surprised by the insensitive digs that I sometimes read in the paper. Sometimes it almost feels like people like to laugh at others if they aren't perfect.I find it difficult to accept that adults could do this, but I guess some do. It seems so cruel and insensitive. I'd like to think that Westerners go out of our way to welcome newcomers to HK.
As for teaching, it's apparent that HK students aren't so great in critical thinking or imagination, but unless the teachers are forced to change, it sounds like they will simply resent the Westerners and think they are lunatics for valuing these things. Odd. I often can't figure out if people here like Westerners or if they are laughing at us....still not sure.
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Ed
18 yrs ago
Not quite - those who use abusive language are banned from the forums... as Ms P has just found out.
Please follow the rules.
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All the NETs that perceive rightly or wrongly that they are being spoken about in Cantonese by their fellow teachers, should think on this. When you were at school learning a foreign language ie. not English, whether it was French, Spanish, German whatever - the majority of the times the teacher was native to that particular country. Yet their English was normally pretty good (from what I remember it was quite a time ago!). So in the staff room they would never have felt so isolated as some of the NETs here clearly do. Whilst this is about more than just the language barrier, how about making the effort to learn some Cantonese? It would not only enable you to converse with your colleagues but would probably earn their respect at the same time. Just an idea.......
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There are some interesting ideas presented here. I don't think that gweilo is a naughty word, is it? kellieja, it's very difficult to learn Cantonese. I tried but failed.. I couldn't differentiate between the sounds. I know 2 extra languages and I learned them because I could! The only people I know who know any Cantonese to speak of go to HKU for a year and study their butts off. Its not easy.
Daddy Long Legs, many westerners won't teach in the NET or they quit. I know you say people should leave their jobs if they don't like them, but it's easier said than done.I think they like the jobs but not the mockery and criticisms.
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i do believed that learning Cantonese is the way out of criticism. and communicating with the local colleagues. my friend teaches at a local school but she is happy and her colleagues get along well with her. she speaks little Cantonese after teaching 2 years in Hong Kong. Learning Cantonese is definitely a good way getting yourself a better life.
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I'm not a NET teacher but do know a couple of people who are.You can get a wide range of opinions from this these links.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewforum.php?f=40
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=52161
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=50901
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=49890&sid=3512a0189f3fa3aa4a450d1f5cca2058
Opinions seem to be divided on this one.
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How ignorant to suggest it would be a waste of time to learn Cantonese (regardless of who has said that) and how arrogant we native English speakers are that we travel round the world expecting everyone to communicate with us in English! I met a middle aged English guy last week who spoke fluent Cantonese. Its not impossible - may be harder than Spanish but hey we choose to live here. Mandarin has its uses more in the business world but for day to day living in HK then why not learn at least some Cantonese? If you're working as a NET in a school you've got heaps of colleagues to help you too.
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Hong Kong is billed as a bilingual city, but some people do not feel that is the case, which I think is where some of the problems come in. If you move to certain cities or countries like rural China, Japan, etc. you would expect to have to learn the local language. English is considered an international language and most people coming here were told that it was widely spoken, which appealed to many people and helped them when they were making the decision to move here. Some people for example, find that it's perhaps more difficult to move to countries where a second language is required and therefore, they may either choose to learn the language before they go, or go to another country in favor of the one where the local people can't converse in English. Some people feel disappointed that the local HK people don't speak more English because they were told that they would. The number 3 languages in the world are English, Mandarin and Spanish. I don't know where Cantonese fits in, but if you are travelling worldwide, Cantonese does not seem to be widely used in other countries. However, most of us think it would be fairly valuable and interesting to learn, but it's unbelievably difficult to actually pronounce the sounds. Most local people will tell you Cantonese is too difficult and that you should learn Mandarin, which is simpler. I'm told you need to memorize sentences in Mandarin in order to be understood.I tried and tried, but I simply couldn't hear the subtleties in the Mandarin language, so I feel intimidated by the thought of learning Cantonese, which I've also tried. I know people who've learned Cantonese, but they are few and far between. My friend has lived with her Cantonese in-laws for a decade and she still says she can't speak Cantonese very well. It's not easy. Yet, most of us could master Spanish to a decent degree in a year of immersion, so the time committment and the frustration are very high, especially when most of us were told learning Cantonese was not necessary. Of course it'd be great to do, but my friends and I have found it's very hard to be understood in Cantonese or Mandarin.The article In my initial post, the article I referred to was about why NET teachers are leaving HK. It said they can't find places in international schools for their kids and they feel unwelcome as teachers. HK is recruiting people to come to teach English, so it would seem that other people should make them feel welcome regardless of whether or not they speak Cantonese (although eventually, some language acquisition may be possible. Of course if you are from the states or England, you would generally have no knowledge of the Chinese languages or any reason to use them. Spanish and French would be the more obvious choices.) If NET teachers are brought here and then resented for not speaking Cantonese, one might wonder if that is perhaps a bit unfair? Generally, regardless of one's background or feelings about a new person, it is simply good manners to try to include newcomers and to make them feel welcome, right? I read about Chris Venerable in the paper. He was a former British NET teacher who got ill, went to China to get treatment and came back with a cane. He had a lot of trouble finding work he said because he was now using a cane. He claimed local people didn't want to hire anyone with a cane and he ended up sleeping on the streets. I found this unusual too. After the article ran, he found some work and the new article mentioned how he could be eventually hired as a teaching assistant in a local school for $7,000 per month!! THat is very low pay. ESF pays quite a bit more but he wants to help the local children who are from less privledged backgrounds. While it's admirable, it made me think about the allegations that expats are being overpaid. THat doesn't seem to be accurate. Instead, I'd see him as almost a missionary who's willing to work for next to nothing in order to help out, so one would think he should be welcomed.Any comments?
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A bit long winded perhaps and just a little out of kilter. First The Chris Venabals case. He grew up in HK and went to school here. So thats a little different to whats being said here.
Secondly there are a surprising amount of western Canto speakers here, and quite a number that have been here less than 10 years! Never seen them? Well a lot are in New Territories areas. So a lot of what you have mentioned is not really relevant.
I have worked with the schooling system for the last few years and have visited around 200 schools in the territory and have seen an equal amount of good and bad schools and good and bad NET teachers. It's not a one way street despite what many people will say..
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My point about Chris V was that he was getting paid a pittance, which would make anyone feel disgruntled! As for Westerners, there certainly are more who don't speak it than who do so I don't really understand your point. My point is that it is very difficult to learn it and it takes a great deal of time and commitment to learn.I don't think I have the ability to withstand the amount of frustration involved because I really could NOT differentiate between the sounds. My teacher had 4 of us and only 1 could duplicate the sounds she was hearing. The other 3 of us found it quite impossible.
I'm sure there are good and bad schools and teachers. The article I read quoted a principal who said NET teachers are made to feel unwelcome which was the main problem. Some people quit in the middle of contracts because they felt so unwelcome, so there is some sort of communication problem or problem in expectations. I read that some NET teachers are to work on Saturdays and to stay late and sit in on meetings which were held in Cantonese!!! I'm sure that would cause negative feelings so perhaps those are some of the problematic areas.
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All of these posts make very interesting reading. I too am a NET under the EMB system and unlike some have enormous respect for the local teachers who DO work very very hard. My frustration with the system here is this. If the local teachers are working 80 hours a week and local children are putting in up to 60 hours a week, WHERE are the results? When I arrived here I was told that children have 10 hours of English lessons per week. I then found out that most also attended extra tutorial lessons as well. My first encounter with students happened to be a group of P6 students, I said “Good morning, what is your name?” to which I got blank embarrassed giggles and not one of them was able to answer me. This is after 10 hours a week for five and a half years. What is wrong with this picture? The end result of all of this effort from both students and teachers has not delivered the desired outcome.
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I will be travelling across Europe/Russia/China between early July and August, so it will be difficult for the EMB to contact me and (hopefully, finally) offer me a school placement...
Do I have to send over my passport to sort the work visa out, or can they just send me a sticker? (The latter is what happened in 2005, when I was working for a charity).
Cheers!
T
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aemom
18 yrs ago
When the employment visa is issued, your school can pick it up and courier it to you. Make sure they have a reliable address for you.
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But do I need to supply my passport, i.e. send it to Hong Kong, in order to have a visa processed and issued?
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Daddy Long Legs, I know you are very supportive of the local school teachers and system and you work in it and I don't, so I'm not as involved as you are. I'm sure there are many well-meaning local teachers, but if what I'm hearing is correct, most expats would be upset by what they hear about in the local schools. I was taught under such a system and there weren't many good things about it. I just read an interesting post under Moms and Dads about it. It's under a posting about debentures. Please check out Woody's views. Do you agree with her? :http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/momsdads/threads/104742.asp
Also, if NET teachers are expected to actually enjoy working in HK, then it must be understood that they are not going to want to sit and waste time in ways that they're not used to doing and often which they weren't informed that they'd have to do. Why would they want to also be subjected to boring meetings in another language? No one would. Having a translator would reduce the problem, but NET teachers will not expect to work on Saturdays, sit through reallly boring meetings (with some exceptions of course) so perhaps the administrative style should be changed for everyone. Could the principal write notes and post them perhaps? Could a meeting be held after school during the week so that it doesn't interfere with the weekend, etc? How could you NOT expect to be relieved of attending meetings in another language when speaking Cantonese is NOT a job requirement? That doesn't make sense to me. HK is billed as a bilingual city, but that's debatable. If, as a NET, you are expected to know what is going on, someone would presumably translate the notes since you are the English speaker or you do you think the NET should have to learn Cantonese or pay for someone to translate it for him/her? If they want you at their school, they will need to either require you to learn Cantonese before hiring you, or make sure someone can communicate with you. That would make sense to me.
As for local students not learning English, perhaps the style of teaching is rote learning rather than conversational??
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aemom
18 yrs ago
mod_83:
The employment visa application form is at:
http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/id(e)936.htm
There are several parts to the visa application: some you fill out, some the school fills out. Plus you have to include copies of documents: passport, degrees, transcripts, letters of employment and one of you must provide a copy of the contract.
With all the paperwork, it's sort of like applying to the NET scheme all over again.
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dvr
18 yrs ago
Wow... I have read some very interesting and strong debates in this particular string. I'm a newbie to this, as in I will be making a decision to work as a NET through EDB (not EMB, last updated July 1/07). So, for those people who have worked in HK for over two years, what brough your hear? (I have about 5 more days to decide on going there)How many of you have come from Australia? or have taught in the NSW system? Is it really that bad that some teachers are feeling talked at behind their backs? What happened to developing 'thick skins'? Is there an 'inferiority complex' there? So what am i to expect when I get to the school I'm at in the new territories? What are some of the practical ways that I could do to help myself and my family then? What about finding accommodation? What happened to passion? It seems like too many people there have lost passion of why they are teaching, but I like the ones who talk of respect and tryig to adapt by even attempting to speak Cantonese. If this is the view of some Nets there... man, it looks like I have my work cut cut out for me.
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aemom
18 yrs ago
dvr:
As with all of life, the NET scheme offers difference experiences for different people. Your experience as a NET will be a reflection of your personality combined with the culture of the school at which you work. Some schools have a great support system for the NET and others treat the NET like a local teacher expected to attend endless meetings in Cantonese and do mountains of mindless marking.
You could prepare for teaching in HK by doing lots of research. In addition to the asiaxpat Practical and Moms & Dads forums, there are many websites which have accounts of teaching in the NET scheme.
You mentioned your family. Do you have school-aged children? I hope you are aware that there is no education allowance in the NET scheme and ESF and international schools are quite expensive. If your children do not speak Cantonese and write Chinese, they cannot get into a local school.
If you do accept the job and come to HK, I hope that you will re-read your post in six months and see how judgmental you sound of teachers and a situation you know nothing about.
Good luck in your decision-making!
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A Net teacher using Cantonese is often frowned upon by local teachers, school admin and parents as you are the "English teacher" and are there to teach: "... English not distorted Cantonese!@!"
I know this from my own experiences as a Net teacher in Hong Kong.
New teachers to the Net scheme passing judgement on others who have been doing this job for a significant amount of time, will get a dose of reality in due time. You are in for a surprise. Good luck with that and let us know how it works out for you and how think your skin is by Christmas of the next academic year.
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