Posted by
Blaney
19 yrs ago
WE pay our helper $4000 now . This is her second contract with us. Most of my friends who live at B.A. pay the minimum. B.A. is no different .
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gwern
19 yrs ago
I don't understand why the helpers would feel it would be any different because they lived somewhere fancy....I don't think I would employ someone if they demanded a higher salary because they live somewhere 'posh' As in any job I pay someone for merit, loyalty and good service.
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gwern
19 yrs ago
I have been employing helpers for over 15 years. As with any employees there are great ones and there are some that are not so great. I think...and hope...that I have been a fair and good employer. I have thoroughly appreciated and loved having the full time help always made sure I have thanked them...just like I like to be when I do something to impress my boss, the gesture makes all the difference. My philosophy is that I would never ask my helper to do something that I would not be prepared to do myself. I do not want them to be sitting at my dinner table or pushing my baby's pram on a shopping trip. That doesn't mean I don't value them. I just think we all need privacy. I am appalled at the attitude towards helpers that I have witnessed out and about HK...
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domestic helper's pay scale is not dependent on where you live but rather on their experience and abilities
if the person you're interviewing for househelp thinks it's beneath them to get a salary not comensurate to where they will live or to what other helpers living in the area are getting.... then i believe this is not the right person for you
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A helper's point of view:
1. Posh place = posh people MIGHT = posh pay.
But there is a posh way, too to ask and seek the self entitlement that was implied without showing an attitude. And a more posh way to to send some of us, on our way than huffing and puffing on line " Thank you for your time, but I DO NOT think you could work for me" and move on to the next interviewee .
Yes, HK pays more than other countries that is why us, maids pay a whole lot more to get here. Trust me, if they do not expect to maximize their earnings, they would have gone to Singapore, Taiwan, Middle East and etc. It would have been easier, and has always been an option.
As for the what an 8K helper could deliver :
1. Being an in house techie
2. Give a 2-4 course party for 2-100 where the employer only has to chose dishes to be served from the suggested menu. And add finishing touches to the tables, if she wants to.
3. When I asked " How are you; did you sleep well last night ; are you feeling better , can I get you anything-- I am not being polite.. I truly care.
4. A sense of loyalty than a 10k plus 15 months offer could not sway.
Reading through the posts here, especially under domestic helpers made me realize that even with a minimum wage, I would still work with my employer.
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souffleQueen: Love your post! Thumbs up for that one!
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Quoting MangoTango " once interviewed a helper who demanded not only a salary in the high end but two days off a week instead of one (and oh she didn't like certain chores like cleaning windows either) would it be unfair for me to guess she got that attitude from her previous expat employers? "
Yes, that's unfair of you if I may say so. Since I am not sure if she indeed DEMANDED instead of asked, I could not say that she has an attitude, I could only say for a fact that the more experienced helpers do negotiate, especially with an expat perhaps for the ( false ?) mentality that expats in general are more generous, understanding and even " not strict" ( reads more compassionate and are less likely to disrespect them as a person ). So yes, in a way you were right about the sense of entitlement that some of us expect from our would be employers. And many DO deserve them. Obviously, that did not sit well on you, but there is another way of looking at it-- she was confident enough to ask for such because she consider herself capable above and beyond an average helper.
Some employers seek/need that confidence from their helper. It's just that sometimes, the problem is that there is a very fine line between confidence and arrogance and not many, ( be it helper or CEO's) are tactful enough to know whether or not they've toed the line.
SF
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???? Please do not worry that you will look bad if you pay less than what is the "normal" rate in B.A. If your ( would be ) helper will not find it acceptable, despite of the fact that it is within the minimum wage requirement, then she could just go and look for another employer. For everyone who would refuse, there will be a dozen who would take it.
I work in a place where 8k is good, but not great and remember when I started 8 years ago on 4.5 K plus 1k food allowance ( for dishes as everything else is free )and my duty is to cook for a family of one ( though we have lots of lady lunches and garden parties). I was urged by the other helpers ( especially by the one who was here for 25 years ) to go and talk to our Boss and ask for at least 1k more. I must admit that for a minute, I was "dazzled" by the ongoing rate but glad that I did not do as I was told. Five days later, all of us, helpers were called and informed that I will be in charge.
I share this, knowing that there are helpers like me who reads on this forum and hope that they could learn a thing or two.
~~~
Wupper, thanks.
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Not sure I would call Bel Air Posh! but anyway. ??? I would suggest that you present your helper with a one way ticket home as it would be herendous for some other unspecting person to hire her and look for another one. There are so many good helpers out there, you really do not have to put up with such nonsense. Wish her Bon Voage!
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What does HKD$1000 mean to you? And what does it mean to your helper?
If you can afford it, and she deserves it, why not make a family in a much poorer part of the world much happier?
From a more selfish point of view, you wouldn't want her to leave you because she could get more elsewhere - if she is good that is!
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I treat my maid with respect and pay her above the minimum. But neither do I afford her the benefits that some are being allowed, or so it appears - ie she works 6 days as is normal, she does all household chores and not just the ones she wants, she does not have fixed hours but generally once the dinner dishes are done, she is on private time, from Mon-Sat she is not allowed to go out on personal time, and on Sunday she is expected to be back at a reasonable time. If she does not feel that is satisfactory, then I will have to re-evaluate the employment contract when that becomes due. It's a free market, I can hire whom I want and she can choose to work for whomever she wants.
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think of it in the same way as you would in a normal office setting.
would you give your staff stuff that is not work related.... like an lcd tv just because they deem they are worth an lcd tv?
better get another helper... she is apparently in control of your household rather than the other way around.
besides you are not going to die or your world will not turn upside down if she leaves.
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Philly Cheese, I wonder if you have trouble sleeping at night. There was a free market in the days of slavery too. Would you like those conditions?
Why shouldn't she be allowed out during personal time? For her own safety? I can't think of a logical reasons! And what kind of grown adult has a curfew. I have lived in HK all my life, with a maid, and am truly disgusted.
These are human beings - don't try and get out of your guilt by saying how you are helping a poor family in another country - what would HK, and many other countries, do without these ladies, who in their home countries, are understandably referred to as "Heroes".
Wiz Bang - this is not a normal office setting. This is someone who lives with you, and as Philly Cheese has pointed out, you can have serious control over. They deserve much more than salary. They deserve freedom and a life!
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HKScot - She knows the conditions ahead of time and she is free to choose them or not. I do not force her to work for me therefore your slavery comment is highly irrelvant and unnecessarily insulting. When is paying an honest salary for honest work slavery.
She lives in my house and she lives by my rules. I do not allow my kids out at night so why should I allow her. She is my responsibility after all. If she has a special trip she has to make (eg like seeing a sick friend or delivering something home) then there is always some flexibility. But I consider it a priviledge rather than a right.
That is clearly stated when she was hired and which she has accepted.
"I have lived in HK all my life, with a maid and am truly disgusted." Are you disgusted living in HK all your life, or are you disgusted that you lived with a maid, or both, or are you plain disgusted? Sorry, you weren't clear and I couldn't resist :)
"These are human beings." - I hope you mean "these" should be followed with the word "people" otherwise it sure sounds like you are objectifying them. Since when did I say I treated them inhumanely? I give them a home, I provide food, I pay them for a service and I treat them with respect. If they can find better, then so be it.
BTW I sleep very well at night, thank you.
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Philly Cheese,
When has having FREEDOM and a social life, outside working hours, ever been a priviledge not a right? THAT is the difference between work and slavery - when the works lose their rights.
Your kids are your children. They belong to you. How they turn out in 10/20 years time, is a direct result of your parenting. Your maid is NOT your responsibility.
I am disgusted not with anything I have done, but that there are expats coming to HK who behave like you do, and make jokes about it.
Don't try and be smart by trying to pick holes in what I'm saying. You know that your maids life would be a lot better if she was given the basic freedom to go out outside her working hours. Even kids at boarding school are allowed to go out at certain times.
Rather than focusing on the fact that she has agreed to this, why don't you tell us why she shouldn't be allowed out?
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On to staying out at night - this is a slipperly slope that once you start providing these benefits it only gets worse, never better. Even if my kids were 21 and are legally adults, I sure as heck would take issue with them going out at night without my permission.
You also bring the law into this - well by law I am responsible for them while they work for me over the two year contract. This is unlike an office job where you can go home and do your own thing as it is your own time. Tell me, where I have broken any laws (or for that matter anything outside the norm).
I am sure that if you take a poll and ask how many helpers are allowed to leave their employers' homes at night and have the freedom to come and go as they please, you would get a very small number. Plus if all their friends are also helpers who live at their employers' homes, where would your helper go?
The difference between work and slavery is one has a choice. These are my rules when I hired her and she agreed to abide by them. If she chooses not to then she can always find an employer like you who would allow her to do that. Or she can stay in her home country and do a regular job. It's her choice.
Heck, if you want to bring up slavery then I can argue I am more endentured than my maid as I have to carry a blackberry 24/7 and am always on call. But that is the nature of my job which I willingly accepted when I was hired, so there is no point for me to whine about it.
A point was raised about making your maid's life better by letting her have free time away from the home. It is her responsibility to make her life better, and that is why she is in HK working for me. It is not my place to make her life better. I am a mere employer, not a charity and not her sig other, nor her family/friend.
Make jokes? - I may be an expat but where did I joke about treatment of helpers in HK? Island Dweller - you noticed it was a witty statement, why thank you? back to you.
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Saikunga - If you're going to post something three times, make sure it's correct. Different boarding schoool have different rules - where I went, girls would frequently go out alone.
Philly Cheese,
I'd like to welcome you to both the 21st century, and also that place outside of America, called the Rest of the World.
1) The legal age for becoming and adult in most countries, including HK, is 18.
2) While almost everyone in HK chooses to be here, many are in a more fortunate position than those around them, and employers have a responsibility to make sure that their domestic employers are not treated badly, regardless of the fact that the contract (which they had no real choice in signing) says.
2) When your "kids" become legally adults (whether than be 18 or 21), guess what - their not kids anymore, they are adults!
3) I have brought the law into this, and the law surely doesn't say that you are responsible for what your workers do outside working hours. I'm pretty damned sure it's also illegal to place employees, esentially, under house arrest, whether they agree to it or not.
4) You are not alone, and many employers treat their maids much worse. That doesn't justify anything, and I'm sure during the era of the slave trade, many employers used the same irrational thinking.
5) "Heck, if you want to bring up slavery then I can argue I am more endentured than my maid as I have to carry a blackberry 24/7 and am always on call. But that is the nature of my job which I willingly accepted when I was hired, so there is no point for me to whine about it."
If your lifes so tough and hers so easy, why don't you become a maid? I'd gladly employ you and enforce the same conditions on you that you have forced other vulnerable people to abide by for I don't know how long. I'm pretty sure that your maid, if given the option, would trade places with you, and make all those "sacrifices" you make.
6) "It is not my place to make her life better. I am a mere employer". Indeed, which means a) You should give her the option to have a life and b) You are not "responsible" for her - you are a mere employer!
Island Dweller - I think this may come down to different parenting, and while I feel very sorry for her kids, I think many Americans who go abroad are equally protective. I won't say over-protective, as that is just my opinion. I remember growing up in HK, and I would never meet any American kids out at night. I think this is rather sad that they obviously weren't allowed out, whilst the anti-drinking establishment probably think it's a good thing.
From previous posts, I think it is clear that Philly Cheese thinks and treats her maid as if she is one of her children. For all I know, maybe the maid appreciates this "warm touch"?
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To Isl Dweller - that is the difference - you were 21 and supporting yourself and not living with mommy and daddy. But if my 21 yr was living at home, they have to abide by the rules of the home. You're right of course, I was unclear and did not state that assumption of my adult kids (wow, I got an oxymoron in there along with the other moronic statements on this thread - how ironic) living under my roof. Discipline is good for kids, you should try it sometimes, but then again you're not a parent are you?
Tell me, why were you working abroad at such a young age?
Me as a maid - definitely don't have the requisite skilset nor temperment for that job so you would never hire me. Plus by enforcing the same conditions on me as those you've asserted that I have put on others would make you what? - a hypocrite?? As for exchanging roles, well, if she had the same schooling, same experience, and same skilsets and worked cheaper, I am sure my boss would be interested.
HKScot - no need to worry or feel sorry for my kid(s) as they are well taken care of by the helper that I employ. Your comments show that you are highly judgemental - drawing conclusions about the abuse I place on my helper, the state of my children's psyche by not being allowed to go out after dark, and my so-called American pre-disposition to being very-protective (that is the first I've heard such an accusation by the way so thanks for accusing me of something that I have never been accused of). You're wrong on all three accounts by the way.
Apologies to the OP, I never did answer your question - there should be no impact on your maid's salary based on where you live.
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If you have read my posts I have not made absolute statements like they are not allowed out after dark. I said they must ask for permission and if they need to go then they can. Why are you all jumping to these conclusions even after I have written so many paragraphs. Is reading comprehension that difficult or do you just choose to read one thing and ignore all others. To be clear they are not allowed to come and go as they please. They must ask for permission before leaving the house at night. This applies to my "hypothetical" kids over 21 as well as my helper. What is so bad about wanting your kids to say "Mom/Dad, I'm going out to ___ and will be back by ___. OK?" This is just common courtesy, and has nothing to do with being totally controlling of one's life. If someone is living under my roof, I would expect that ... and if I went out for a bit I would also let someone know. This is much different than if someone just walks out without a word assuming it is fine and dandy.
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To ??? - in an earlier post you said "... she always wants to leave early on Sat night...". I took this to mean you disapproved of it as you mentioned that she whines about this and that. But then above you mentioned that it is fine with you that you have some time without a helper in the house. So which is it as these two things seem to conflict with one another?
To ID - its good that you wanted to pick up additional skills at such a young age. BTW I did not associate age with independence, it was you that did. All I am saying is that if you're 21 and still living at home, then you are not really independent. Conversely, if you are 15 and living on the streets, then you are independent.
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Philly Cheese,
I've thought a lot about this, and realised that my sentiments are pretty extreme, when you consider the context of the situation you were in when you made the decisions you made:
- She is living in your house
- She is working for you
- She does have a better life hear
- She gets treated better than many of her counterparts working/living in other households
- She probably doesn't even WANT to go out at night
- She may get pregnant and that would be a real pain (for you)
All those reasons (and more) help you to form the decisions you make, but you have to realise that despite all of them, every individual should have the option to go out at night, as long as their not causing trouble, such as coming home late drunk, bringing back guys, and basically behaving in a way that is both disrespectul and a bad example to your children. However, if they want to go and visit a friend who lives nearby, go to the cinema - do whatever - I still think every human should be allowed to do this.
On the subject of kids and 21, thanks for clarifying what you mean. If their still leaving with you, and the chances are they will be, they should have common courteousy to tell you what their doing, but at the same time the freedom for that to be whatever they choose.
21 isn't that young to and work abroad. It's about the mindset more than anything else. A small piece of advice is that the higher you raise the bar (in terms of becoming an adult/independant), the longer it takes for the teenager to reach that stage.
Regarding the hypothetical situation of you trading careers with your maid, I was not implying that you would not be qualified, nor I was implying that your company would not employ your maid. I was just saying that I bet you she would be delighted to have the job and lifestyle you have, despite the negative elements that you have outlined, and I bet you wouldn't become a maid living away from your family in a foreign country if your livelyhood depended on it. Don't get me wrong, neither would I.
I have no doubts that you keep good care of your kids. Their no doubt healthy, well educated and are part of a loving family. My accusation that you are over-protective is based on what I know about you, and that is purely on what you've said, before clarifying yourself. It is a stereotype, but one which I stand by, is that Americans overseas do tend to be more protective than their other Western counterparts - for example opting to live in areas with much better security. I don't think this is always a bad thing, but like all character traits, it does have it's disadvantages.
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??? - Do you have kids? If not, I don't see why she should wait for you to come home before she can go out.
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To HKScot and others - though we disagree on some things I think our perspectives are more similar than not. It was nice to have a mature discussion that did not degenerate into name calling etc.
To ???, if you have an understanding with your helper that she can go out after her duties are done, then I don't think she should have to wait for your return. Just tell her to leave you a note that she has gone, so you don't have to worry that something untoward happened to her whilst you were away from home. Unless she was babysitting and she should never leave young ones alone, for any reason.
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my friend always keeps a diary and list down things and tasks to do. it also advises everyone what is happening on a certain day and things relating to that activity.
makes everything clear for everyone and no one can say i didn't know.
yes you should look for another helper specially if you're helper is trying to be a prima donna.
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