Harvard Class of 2010 - Want to work in Hong Kong...

Good evening. I am a student at Harvard University set to graduate in the Spring of 2010. I have registered at this website and created this thread in search of advice...


In short, I would like to work in Hong Kong (specifically in finance) after I graduate. Would this be possible for me to do WITHOUT having any sort of Chinese language ability


A little bit about me:


-As mentioned earlier, Class of 2010 (I will be a 3rd year student this upcoming semester)

-I am currently a Economics concentrater at Harvard.

-I am a decent student with a GPA (grade point average) of 3.7


Language abilities


-Japanese (I am a Japanese national and it is my native language)

-English (fluency is near-native)

-French (conversational fluency, not quite at a Business-level)


What I hope to do is work at a bulge bracket American investment bank (GS, MS, or perhaps ML) in the regional office of Hong Kong.

Most of my peers wish to start their careers in New York first, but for personal reasons I would like to get my feet wet in Asia (specifically Hong Kong)


Is this possible for me to do without Chinese language ability?


As a side-note, I have studied Mandarin Chinese for 2 semesters at Harvard and intend to continue until I graduate (which will have me at 6 semesters of Chinese study) However, I do not think this will be enough to be able to adequately function in the language at a high (Read: Business) level... Perhaps I can take a year off to study Chinese after graduating and then apply for a job...


Any thoughts or insights into this issue will be greatly appreciated.


Thank you very much for your time and consideration.

You might consider to submit your CV here as a starting point http://jobs.asiaxpat.com/

Hi V0420, Ed's post is already an opportunity, have you done it already?

Apart from his post, this is my info.


-I know that the banks u mentioned send summer interns to HK and they make you really get used to the banking ambience. Have you tried that?

-Also, if you are really desperate to get in the industry, first priority is to get your foot in here.

you can start working in NY and then get a transfer. You can start working in a smaller bank and then move on to a bigger bank.( I have done both smaller and bigger and personally, I think the smaller ones gives you more access to different experience)

- if you are looking for a marketing/sales, then Cantonese/mandarin is essential, HK operates to different countries so you can use your English and also Japanese!! but I must say that it only comes after you prove yourself, the easiest and the most opportunity is speaking the location language and not just speaking, understanding how it functions, do you discuss with your Cantonese/Mandarin friends about everything?

-Also, may I suggest something as an x banker, the most difficult part of banking is surviving with balance. Have you spoken with lots of bankers and ask them for guidance, or ask them about what they miss or their dreams or what motivates them to keep on going? I think it will help you.

-If you are a harvey, when it is the job hunt season, all the banks you mentioned will come on campus, my friend actually went to recruit. never miss it and even it is not the time for you, go to them.


I know it is a tough time but, if you want it bad, keep hope!!

Good luck!!

I dont think you have been given good advice. Sorry I don't mean to offend, people seem to suggest it is more difficult then it is. For a start if you have a Harvard degree to begin with, you move to the top percentile in any recruitment drive and it is actually more competitive to get a job in the US than in Asia, because the number of people applying from elite schools in America is higher.


If you go to any of the bulge bracket websites there are recruitment micro sites for the Asia Pacific region for all of them as well as tier two banks, and if you speak ANY Asian language it makes you more qualified though it is not a total pre requisite. Some languages are more valued than others. current x factor is Mandarin, 20 years ago it was Japanese. Japanese will always be in demand. The only issue with this is you might get be offered a position but it may be in Tokyo, something like that can be negotiated though, if a bank has made a decsion after an exhaustive recruitment process asking to be posted in a different office is not a complete deal breaker.


Do not under any circumstance put down a language on your CV that you are not fluent in, especially Mandarin when you are applying for a position, they will send in someone to interview you and that person will start using the language to test you, and if you cannot speak it, you're chances are as good as over.


The reason I say the advice you have been given so far is not great is because I know quite a few that have done it, come over from Ivy league schools in the US and obtained positions, its still tough don't expect a free ride, but it is not any more difficult then it would be were you living in New York. I have a friend who works for Goldmans and had just two interviews before she was hired, compared to some of the horror stories you hear in New York that is a walk in the park. Don't worry about visa either, if you make it through their recruitment program, that will be sorted, Banks hire graduates from all across Asia from various schools and that is always sorted.

Hi V0420, I am here once again to agree with Digital Blonde, do not write a language you cannot command business and know the culture in. Though, i think your idea of coming to a university in China would be make it eligible to write it down on the CV. I worked for an American bank in Tokyo and the people who got to be considered as useful where the ones who came to school in Japan.

Also, yes, it is really easy to get a job in HK or Tokyo, compared to NY. I have seen a lot of people do it that way. And if you concentrate on getting into finance in HK, i agree with Digital Blonde.

But please also keep in mind, recruitment in the finance is heavily dependent on the market situation and how the bank is doing. in my post earlier on, I wanted to high light that if you have a goal that is to be in the finance industry and challenge the tough profession, limiting to HK is limiting your opportunity.

I do understand that you would like to use the language and challenge understanding the culture but, I also think that the finance industry has become boarderless that you may get to use your Chinese knowledge elsewhere. Did you know that a lot of people in the derivatives sector are French and they are all over the world? It is almost as if you get better info on derivatives if you you are one of them!!! So you see, you will have opportunities all around. But, i also do understand that you would like to challenge so, I really wish that all works out for the best for you. if you need some factual info., my husband works for one of the names you mentioned so I will ask him so please PM me.

Most of the large multinational banks hire undergraduates through a global recruiting program. Between late Sept and early December, many (most) of the big banks will hold information nights on campus. Go to the Harvard Career Placement office and get those campus visit schedules. Go to all of them, and submit resume for next year (2009) internship. The internships will most likely be in the US, but it will get you in the door. Next year, do the same thing, but state in your cover letter that you prefer an HK assignment. Harvard placement office and Alumni associations are very strong, and you can get very specific advise from them.

Most of the banks do not do HK specific hire for undergraduate entry level (front office) positions. We tend to get them through a pool of new hires in the global program.

Hello everyone, I appreciate all the answers thus far, though admittedly, it is as much as I expected.


I am fully-aware that Chinese language skills will be absolutely essentially for any front-office positions that deal heavily with clients (Sales, Investment Banking, Investment Management, Equity Research, etc.)


I guess the only jobs that would not require Chinese language skills would be things like Trading, Structuring, and then Back-Office and Middle-Office positions...


If it means anything, I would say that I am interested in Sales and Trading. I hear that more and more Equity trading is being done my computers instead of actual traders, and Fixed Income Traders are being recruited among the ranks of heavily quantitative Ph.D's?


I already have internship experience. I did 10 weeks at Goldman Sachs in the Tokyo Office during this summer (2008). Though it doesn't mean anything, I was told by one of the associates at my exit interview that I would have been given a job offer if I was senior graduating in the following year (2009)...


But I digress.... thank you once again for all the replies. Best wishes for the rest of 2008!

Hi V0420,

I think it is about time you be more clear on what you want to prioritize what you are looking for in your career. You know the famous proverb in Japanese about chasing two many rabbits. Is it to get into these banks? Is it to use your language, is it successfully survive in the sales/trading sector? Is it the glamorous status that these people project? be firm on one core ambition and then, rebuild your strategy.

I really think you should gather more information about what is important in finance, especially if you are looking to get into Front Office. it is the surviving that is really difficult, and I do not think companies now-a days are generous enough to hire someone who is unlikely to survive, even with the best academic background.

Now to practical answers to your questions and I am going to only give you insight from derivatives/Structured products as it is my speciality.

Yes, if you want to be a derivatives trader, scientific background will be crucial. Most of them come from at least top schools all over the world with a degree, PhD in the science field, but, that said, it is not impossible for a economics major undergrad, it is just harder because these people are already trained at school on the way of thinking. I think one of the banks you want to get in almost requires a science background in Structuring as well as you need to not only build but, discuss with the traders if it is a technically possible scheme.

- About trading, it is a true fact that equity trading has less people but, I think you are talking about one desk. Last I confirmed( yesterday) there are still people on the desks and for Equity derivatives you need people to decided from the data the computer calculates back and only experience can tell. You also need people to play the stock exchange etc.

- About language. It's not about fluency, it is about communication skills. Yes Sales, you need it. More important as i repeat is, that you understand how it works, even if you are fluent, if you do not understand the business culture, you will have a very difficult time getting your client's trust. But, i have seen so many people in other fields who do not speak the language and still get recognition and succeed because they were really good communicators, they can understand what information what the person wants and that is why you have the help of translator, local professionals will be there to help you.


To take a thought or not is your choice but, I do hope that you will find what you are looking for.

-

sadly in this world, ding dong, degrees from Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge and the like do put you on a special pedestal - that's a fact of life and there is nothing one can do about it. Speaking of which, I personally, would love my kids to get into Oxford or Cambridge, it does give them that little push up the career ladder above others - I know, I have done graduate recruitement for my company in London for a couple of years - trust me, makes huge difference what University you are from to get you through the first hurdle...

I've stepped in and deleted quite a few comments here... and there's been one ban.


When people come to these forums they are looking for help - not insults or to be judged.


If you would like to make a serious comment or opinion about the US school system please use the THINK! forum


Thanks

Ed i notice i got deleted as well -why? i made a mildly offensive to some not very humurous comment about a "bitch -slap"


surely the original poster is not girly enough to be offended-he is going to be a banker for .... sake ,if he is offended he needs to harden up


On my list of sites to visit this site ranks low due to boring and low numbers of posts and your editorial policy is not helping


i thought it was an interesting and funny exchange and ding dong was obviously under the influence but i may not visit again if you keep it up -but i guess you got plenty of viewers already- right?


in short there are prob not too many kids on this site and i sure dont like being treated like one so only step in when you really need to and get a sense of humour

As we saw with this thread the moment we let things go beyond the scope of advice and answers we end up with insults - and if we let that go we end up with profanity and all sorts of other utter rubbish - and ultimately you end up like this site http://www.icered.com/ (for those who dont know what this, it's motto was freedom of speech - anything goes...)


We have run the forums as a 'chat room' in the past - and we decided that was a mistake.


We are what we are - Advice Forums. People come here for serious answers to serious questions - they are not here to be called wankers or made fun of or to be judged. And the moment we see activity of that nature it gets deleted.


The rules are clearly stated, and like traffic laws, if they are broken there are consequences.


Thanks for keeping our Advice Forums useful and relevant

Oski, I have to respectfully disagree a little with some of what you said. All of it is sound advice, and I would recommend that the poster do everything you say. Though Investment Banks do having global hiring recruitment programs but, they are broken down on a regional basis for most of them (Not all, Goldmans for example do not at first appearance but I will get to that.)


That is to say if you are in an elite Asian school you can apply to work in Asia but there is no guarantee of which office you will be assigned to (this though is as you say part of the global hiring program) but with Hong Kong and and Tokyo being the largest two regional offices usually, it is safe to assume if they do accept you it will be at one of those two, though conceivably it could be anywhere If you are studying in the US you are not precluded from applying to Asia either. Just have a look at the recruitment websites for UBS, Merril, CS, Citi Deutsch all of them do Asia Specific hiring and in fact for some of them you can specify which business group you wish to work for and in which office.


The Truth of the matter is there are quite a few ways to apply to an Investment bank in Hong Kong as a fresh graduate. I came back after graduating in 94 LSE and applied directly to the individual banks, and was given a job I don't speak either Cantonese or Mandarin (but that was in the pre handover heyday). That was almost 15 years ago and things are a lot more sophisticated today. But they still do it. Banks hire in various ways and use a number of methods that are not confined to their global recruitment programs. Two juniors I know, friends of the family so I actually know their story, got their jobs in the last 3 years by simply coming to Hong Kong and applying directly. One got a front office job with citi and had a few months to begin so was attending jobs fairs in Hong Kong where goldmans where exhibiting and he went and saw them and when he told them he already had an offer with citi, they made him an offer on the spot. Another friend of mine didn't care in the slightest for investment banking, saw a head hunter on the advice of her mother and because she spoke fluent Mandarin she was pushed to apply to goldmans and she was accepted and her University is not even a top tier one, she got her position mainly for language ability.


So what is the point you ask, well the best way to apply to a bank is obviously through the global recruitment program, apply through the Asia Pac micro site and all of a sudden you have higher chances of working in Hong Kong. If you feel like taking a risk and are confident then coming out to Hong Kong and going through the process here, well that could also land results, if it does land a result you get your desired city. This strategy is riskier though


http://www.db.com/careers/en/2305.html


that is what Deutsch do for example for their Hong Kong recruitment. You should check what all the other banks are doing. And Don't worry to much about the lack of Ability in Mandarin, its not a deal breaker

@ Digital Blonde


Reassuring comments such as yours are nice to hear. I appreciate it very much.

Digital Blonde, I don't see what you are disagreeing with me. I advised Veritas one way, the most common way of getting into the industry from a top US university. I know that path very well because I participated in US recruiting drives with 2 different employers for 8 years. (interviewed close to 200 candidates and hired about 8, they went on to all corners of the earth.) I did not say a fresh undergrad cannot get a job directly in HK, but I would say it is not common. By far the easiest way for a fresh undergrad to enter the industry (in HK especially) is through the recruiting programs. If you want to take issue with this point, let me give you some rough statistics based on my own experience. The year I started, which also happen to be '94, I started with about 120 people in the global hiring program. In my entire career, I have only worked with one person who was independently hired directly out of university in an entry level position by the front office. (there were a number of people hired by middle and back office then transfered to front office, however.) After I came to HK, 6 years ago, I took on 4 direct reports from global new hire pools, and zero independent trainee level hires. If I needed a new trainee, there is absolutely no restriction on me to hire direct, however, I have never felt it was worth the trouble. (there is a lot of paperwork to do to request a headcount, but the process is a lot simpler if you take a pool hire.) The young people out of the global pools are very high quality and many are eager to come to HK. In conclusion, it is much easier to take advantage of the university based recruiting program than trying it alone. It is true some banks do regional hiring rather than global, and they change from time to time, but as far as I know, no major players run recruiting programs just for HK. The best place to find this out is from the campus road shows I mentioned in my first reply.

In anycase, Veritas seems to have done plenty of preparation, and already know the path I recommended.

Oski I didn't say you were wrong mate, not in the slightest, I said I was "disagreeing a little with some of what you said" there is a big difference. You have worked at two different banks and have experience with their hiring programs as have I which is fair enough and I think the advice you have given is good and If I were the poster I would follow it to the letter. Two things though, both of us suggesting he/she go through the global recruitment program which is what we have both done is not going to be new information to someone who is graduating Harvard in two years time and is already thinking about exactly which office they wish to work in. So I offered an alternative coming to Hong Kong and applying direct which is risky but I have done it and I know 2 others that have as well that is all I was saying.


Deutsch CL Calyon, and a few others offer Hong Kong specific recruitment programs but that is part of their larger global programs and you must have studied here to apply that way.

ok Ed your point is a fair one -no point letting things get too ugly