Posted by
Kate71
18 yrs ago
Hi there
My 8 day old daughter will not sleep in her basket - the minute she's put down, she starts to cry... we've tried leaving her for a few minutes before reassuring her, but she just won't settle unless she's in someone's arms.
I don't mind too much - obviously I would prefer her to sleep in her cot but I think she's too young to take to a routine... and I'm unhappy leaving her to cry for more than a few minutes... My husband however feels that we should be establishing a routine now otherwise we'll suffer later. What's normal for newborn? does anyone have any tips for getting her to sleep alone?
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First of all, she's only 8 days. So "the routine" will take a while to develop. Don't worry yet. This is quite normal. I am a proponent of "cry it out" but at 8 days holding and rocking is just fine. "The routine" will not start working well until 3-6 weeks.
I agree with your husband. Teach her early and things will be easier later.
To teach her to sleep alone, you'll have to put up with much more crying than that. 8 minutes, then go in and comfort without picking up, then 8 minutes, etc. It's not rocket science, it's just pretty grating on the nerves. But as I said there's no huge hurry at this point. Take it easy the first few weeks.
A good option for children under 3 months is a moses basket. That way she can sleep in the basket but still be in the same room as you. We put the basket on our big dining table for both our daughters and apart from night sleep and walks they would spend much of the day there. Life would go on around them, and they would sleep or look around or whatever. We'd have dinner with them lying in the basket on the table. Works great. They like company.
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8 days old is way too early to establish any routine. Your baby is only concerned with three things, food, food and food, oh a a clean nappy.
Your baby has been snuggled in the womb for 9 mnths and now she is in an open space in her cot, that would be scary for her. I have two suggestions which work very well for my two. If you don't want to fork out for the moses bakset, could I suggest:
1. If you don't swaddle/wrap your baby, then it works a treat, helps with the startle reflex. I don't wrap so the arms are completely stuck down the side, I use a muslin wrap so the arms are still covered and but free for them to move a little (if you are aussie and know Karitane or Tresilian, then you will definitely know what i'm talking about). Let me know if you want the directions and I'll pm you with the details/directions.
2. The other thing I did for my first child when she was a baby and we moved her to the cot at 5 weeks, we bought a snuggle bed, i'm sure they have something similar over here. It was basically a sheet bottom with soft padded sides so it gave her that feeling of being coccooned.
Finally, make sure that she is getting enough to drink. If her weight gain is good, then all is well.
They only eat and sleep at the moment, wait until she is a little older, around 6-8 weeks before trying to slowly establish a routine. Good Luck.
axptguy38, 8 minutes is very long for a newborn or even a couple of month old baby to be crying it out. Surely you are talking about an older baby. The general rule back home for controlled crying was 1-3 minute max and that was for older babies.
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Sorry, it goes without saying that cuddling and bonding is right up there with the food and clean nappy!
You cannot spoil or turn them into a clingy child at this age. Just be there for her when she cries and reassure her.
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good grief, i am TOTALLY shocked that anyone would recommend leaving an 8 day old to cry for 8 minutes before going to comfort the child.
Even ferber, the monster himself, doesnt recommend his barbaric methods be used on babies less than 6 months old!!!!
My baby hated the Moses basket. Mine used to be very comfortable on our sofa, or in his baby cot.
I think swaddling is a good idea.
8 days is sooo young, tell your husband at this age they need cuddles and warmth, not some strange disciplinary ideas.
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well cara, can't help but take it as my personal duty to convince parents not to inflict such trauma on their babies, specially newborns... :)
why is it i wonder, that we will go to great lengths to buy all the stupid consumer goods that are available on the market for the sake of our child's wellbeing, but deny it nice oldfashioned maternal or paternal warmth? It's like oh my god!!! worst drug possible, DONT get your baby used to such things....
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what can i say, lucky babies!
well mine like your number 2 is now 18 months and is learning how to throw tantrums, during which time i emphasise that a No is a no.
but if he's tired, i tend to relent..
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"good grief, i am TOTALLY shocked that anyone would recommend leaving an 8 day old to cry for 8 minutes before going to comfort the child."
I never said that.
"axptguy38, 8 minutes is very long for a newborn or even a couple of month old baby to be crying it out. Surely you are talking about an older baby. The general rule back home for controlled crying was 1-3 minute max and that was for older babies."
Sorry I was unclear. If by older you mean 3-4 months, then yes. That's when we started letting our daughters cry it out. And no, they don't hate us. And no, they are not emotionally stunted.
Not everyone wants to use "cry it out". That's fine. But it does work. And if you stick to some good principles, kids can handle it. Our children are very well behaved for their age. They know that if they behave well, life is much more fun. They're hardly robots, they just know that some lines can't be crossed.
"why is it i wonder, that we will go to great lengths to buy all the stupid consumer goods that are available on the market for the sake of our child's wellbeing, but deny it nice oldfashioned maternal or paternal warmth? It's like oh my god!!! worst drug possible, DONT get your baby used to such things...."
Haha. So true. And it's funny how many ppl thing that "cry it out" means being cold towards your child. That is so not true.
Our kids get so much love, cuddling and affection. We spend most of our free time with them. We play with them, we go to the beach and the pool. We don't sit on the sidelines and let them play by themselves. We bake with them. However they know that when it's time for bed it's time for bed and if they argue about it it will just end in (their) tears. Give them freedom to play as they like, but make them understand that some things are non-negotiable.
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axptguy38, it's okay, i did give you the benefit of the doubt and didn't think you would let a newborn cry it out.
it's such a personal thing and it really is hard to hear your child cry, so at the end of the day, you do what works best for you and baby and of course, your nerves!
Our baby did a new type of scream the other night which i started worrying about, so i took him out of the cot, took him out of his swaddle, checked everywhere. Once I was satisfied there everything was okay, I rewrapped him, but him back to bed knowing he was crying out of tiredness. So i stuck it out with the resettling, I did however, get him up and give him lots of cuddles and was never far away if he started up again.
I think affection and telling your family you love them all the time is the best. I tell my husband and my children I love them constantly and my 5 yr old even comes into the room and says "i love you" and walks out again. Makes the heart warm and gives your baby/child the confidence to know it's okay to show emotion. I reckon start that from an early age and things are good.
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"axptguy38, it's okay, i did give you the benefit of the doubt and didn't think you would let a newborn cry it out."
If nothing else my wife would kill me. ;)
"it's such a personal thing and it really is hard to hear your child cry, so at the end of the day, you do what works best for you and baby and of course, your nerves!"
Indeed. Nothing has ever made my wife and I fight as badly as crying babies. Glad those days are over. It's very tough. However it does teach lessons for the future. Of course our 2½ year old is much more nuanced than "poop, pee, eat, sleep", but the basic principles are still in there, deep down. Teaching kids to be self reliant while setting boundaries needs to start early and continue until, well, until you run them out of the house I guess.
"my 3yr old suffers from nightmares every once and a while. he also sleep talks etc. the biggest problem is that it is very difficult to know if he's awake or asleep. as he will answer questions but is still asleep sometimes....last night, he cried and squealed in his sleep for almost 3 hours!!! nothing i did helped."
There's a tough one. We have some of the same issues with our 2½ year old. She can answer questions as well. Typically I just hold her upright while hugging her. Even if she doesn't wake up, she is subconsciously comforted. If she wakes up, it will not be so sudden. At this age, kids are prone to nightmares. He'll grow out of it.
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I either read somewhere or saw something on TV saying that when these "night terrors" as they put them happened, the best thing to do is to just sit with your child and comfort them. Don't try to wake them up or move them, but be there for them if they need you.
My daughter went through a stage (blessedly not long at all) where she was having nightmares, roughly the same age as yours I think and it was so upsetting to see her so distressed. I just sat with her, even when I tried to hold her to comfort her it often made it worse. It didn't happen every night, thank goodness, and then one day it just stopped.
It is very common at this age, I often think it's the child going through a new change and the brain devleoping and trying to cope with everything. Probably wrong, but it's how I see it.
Now my daughter just chats away in her sleep. She is a chatterbox during day and even at night i can't keep her quiet!!
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cd
18 yrs ago
My son went through a stage of night terrors, especially if he was over tired. Really eerie to watch, he sit up in bed crying and sometimes screaming, but with his eyes open , so he looked awake but wasn't really, sometimes he'd even answer questions, but definately wasn't aware of you. It used to spook me out because it was like he was looking at you, but right through you, it often seemed like he could see something I couldn't. We'd just cuddle him, talk quietly, lay him down and stoke him till he calmed down. He would never remember it in the morning. He hasn't had one for a long time, between the ages of 5 and 6 seemed to be the worse time.
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"I either read somewhere or saw something on TV saying that when these "night terrors" as they put them happened, the best thing to do is to just sit with your child and comfort them. Don't try to wake them up or move them, but be there for them if they need you."
Night terrors and nightmares are related, but not quite the same. But I would agree with the not waking them. Just make sure they don't hurt themselves.
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Robyn
18 yrs ago
eat, activity, sleep your time.... read the baby whisper.
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Robyn
18 yrs ago
oh and the no cry sleep solution... both ex books for mums and dads.
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Hi Kate71,
My daughter is three weeks old and she's so adorable that my husband and I just want to cuddle her all the time. Of course it's true that if you want to teach good sleep habits, it's best to start early. But I've decided to forget about routines for the time being so we can enjoy cuddling her while she's still small.
She sleeps in our bed, inbetween us, because when we returned from the hospital, we were worried about a damp patch that had appeared in the baby's new room.
So at six weeks of age, I will start to put her in her own room, but I plan to sleep with her until she gets used to it (there's a sofabed in there).
The only routine I follow at the moment is waking her for daytime feeds and ensuring she doesn't sleep too long during the day, so that she'll hopefully sleep well at night time.
Also, The Baby Whisperer book says when you put a baby down to sleep and they start crying, you pick them up or just pat them etc to calm them, and once they are calm you put them back down again. You may have to do this more than 100 times on the first night, but apparently it takes only three days to "train" a baby, and by the third night - hopefully they will be able to send themselves to sleep.
I guess I will find out in a few weeks time when I start my "routine" and start to put her in her own room - yikes!
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"So at six weeks of age, I will start to put her in her own room, but I plan to sleep with her until she gets used to it (there's a sofabed in there)."
Excellent plan. That way she gets the comfort of your presence but you don't make her used to sleeping in your room.
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Thank you everyone who took the time to reply - there's some really useful advice here
our little one hates her Moses basket so we're using the cot part of her pram so she doesn't feel so enclosed. We tried the Baby Whisperer technique but it seemed to distress her more - but a combination of cuddles, the pram & a dummy is working well...
More than anything though it was so nice to get feedback telling me that I wasn't crazy for not wanting to instigate a routine straight away... big thank yous all round...
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"our little one hates her Moses basket so we're using the cot part of her pram so she doesn't feel so enclosed. We tried the Baby Whisperer technique but it seemed to distress her more - but a combination of cuddles, the pram & a dummy is working well..."
Great! All babies are different. The trick is figuring out what makes them tick. It is also important to keep re-evaluating things. Babies evolve and change and you need to be responsive.
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See, it's just a a matter of positioning some times!.
Mine went into his own room at 8 weeks. I didnt even have to sleep in the same room to get him used to it. I think he slept better without us opening and closing the bathroom door, wardrobe etc.
Also we had and indian style baby hammock that he used to sleep in for naps. Three hours in the mroning and three hours in the afternoon... till he was 8 months old. No sore shoulders!
i got hold of the baby whisperer when baby was actually 10 months old and had sleep issues (ferber abd weisbluth just caused trauma and not restful nights) and it really worked with mine. just three to four days and all was ok. You have plenty of time to get there though. they do say to put your baby down awake, and not when he/she's asleep already. Maybe you can also try putting her in the cot with a nice mobile that plays soothing music. so she can listen to it and fall asleep on her own.
in response to axpatguys comments
Not everyone wants to use "cry it out". That's fine. But it does work. And if you stick to some good principles, kids can handle it. Our children are very well behaved for their age. They know that if they behave well, life is much more fun. They're hardly robots, they just know that some lines can't be crossed.
Are you implying that the children of parents who dont follow the CIO method are less wellbehaved?
And it's funny how many ppl thing that "cry it out" means being cold towards your child. That is so not true.
Our kids get so much love, cuddling and affection. We spend most of our free time with them. We play with them, we go to the beach and the pool. We don't sit on the sidelines and let them play by themselves. We bake with them. However they know that when it's time for bed it's time for bed and if they argue about it it will just end in (their) tears. Give them freedom to play as they like, but make them understand that some things are non-negotiable.
Bed time in my house is non negotiable as well. baby gets put to bed, when we decide htat he must go to bed.
but i remain unconvinced that babies can understand the difference in a parents attitude during day and night. It's like playing Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde on them. Warm and loving and affectionate during the day and oops come night time distant and absent for 8 minutes (while i'm crying in distress).
unless someone comes out with categorical proof that allwoing your child to scream and cry by itself, does not lead to depression, alcohol/drug abuse, lack of emotional sensitivity etc, i will continue to say to all parents: PLEASE dont subject your child to these methods.
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"but i remain unconvinced that babies can understand the difference in a parents attitude during day and night. It's like playing Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde on them. Warm and loving and affectionate during the day and oops come night time distant and absent for 8 minutes (while i'm crying in distress)."
Our attitude is exactly the same, day or night. It's just that the routine during the day does not call for lying down in bed apart from nap time. We are still just as firm with table manners (as appropriate for the age) and so forth. There is no transformation in our behavior.
Children like boundaries. In the long run, it makes them more secure since they can be sure that certain things are immutable.
"unless someone comes out with categorical proof that allwoing your child to scream and cry by itself, does not lead to depression, alcohol/drug abuse, lack of emotional sensitivity etc, i will continue to say to all parents: PLEASE dont subject your child to these methods. "
"Subject"? It's not torture you know.
I would counter that I would like to see proof that crying it out actually leads to increased issues later in life. I don't think there's any evidence either way.
In any case I think that over the course of her childhood, other things will affect my kids more than if we used CIO on occasion as a "teaching tool". In my opinion, all the problems you mention can more easily be attributed to unloving families, abusive parents, witnessing parents being unemotional, uncontrolled bullying in school, abusive boyfriends/girlfriends.
"Are you implying that the children of parents who dont follow the CIO method are less wellbehaved? "
Hardly. But I can see how it can be construed that way. Having said that I have noticed that parents who do not set boundaries (or set very slack ones) have less well behaved kids, regardless of CIO or not.
I am just pointing out that CIO worked fine for our kids and that I think it can work fine for most, perhaps all kids. I am not saying it makes them more well behaved than other kids. Simply that CIO is part of what makes our kids well behaved. CIO is only a small part of it though. A solid routine and a responsiveness to the needs, fears and wants of the children are more important than the particular discipline method used.
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My son was exactly the same - have you tried letting her fall asleep in a sling/wrap? Then when she's properly asleep you can put her in her bed. Don't worry about bad habits, at this stage you just do what you can to survive. She just wants to be close to you, and not alone in a basket. A sling means that you can get on with things, or at least not worry about dropping her when you fall asleep yourself.
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Ours all prefered to sleep in my arms/on my chest/by my side. In the end I bought an Arm's Reach Co-Sleeper, which is like a 3 sided cot that tied onto my side of the bed (effectively extending the bed by a couple of feet). They got eased into sleeping 'alone' and it was just a small extra to wean them onto sleeping in their own cots. The co-sleeper converts into a playpen afterwards.
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Our son slept with us until he was about eleven months, at which point we put him into a crib. He's now 2.9 years and sleeps well in his own bed in his own room. I'd highly recommend it. My wife could breastfeed him at night and barely had to wake up; no lost sleep at all!
It also helped with the potty training. We could tell at night when he was getting ready to pee, and hold him over the potty.
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cd
18 yrs ago
We've always bed shared with ours, loved it. The youngest 2 still like to sleep with me when their dad is away,
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agree with dadda - having baby sleep with you (esp as late as 11 months) seriously bad habbit and absolutely unnecesaary as well as unsafe! And on top of that - not really a proper deep sleep for you or your husband. Baby whisperer indeed is a very good technique - we used it as well - tho it did take us a few wks i think...
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cd
18 yrs ago
Disagree, we've always slept better knowing the kids are in with us, and I certainly didn't mind my 3 year old snuggling up with me. It actually makes for a very happy, secure child. My 9 year old, and 6 year old still think its a real treat to sleep with me. Its not a problem, I know they can sleep in their own beds, but sometimes choose not too. Its nice to have that closeness.
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didy
18 yrs ago
My first child always slept in his own crib. I more or less followed a routine for him and by the time he was six months, he was sleeping through the night (7pm to roughly 6 or 630 am). Being a first time parent, I was very keen on "training" him to sleep through the night. I let him 'cry it out' for a couple nights (when he was five months?) - needless to say it was a heart wrenching experience for us.
My second baby is now six months old. Since his birth I've been sleeping with him for the most part. I have been frankly too exhausted most of the nights to nurse him, get myself up, and then lift him back into his crib. As a result, he's stayed in my bed despite of my doubts regarding co-sleeping. At the beginning breastfeeding in bed took a bit of effort. I did have to wake myself up and position him and myself so he could latch on correctly, which happens quite a few times throughout the night. But as he grew older and became more mobile, he has become quite good with latching himself on so I don't really wake up much any more, nor him. I have grown quite comfortable with co-sleeping. As a working mother, I am quite happy to nurse him more at night by co-sleeping, and both of us actually do get more sleep this way. I do not regret sleep training my first child, but I do also enjoy co-sleeping with the little one.
Do what works for you and your family. Relax and enjoy your daughter's babyhood. If something (like following routines etc) makes you feel stressed, it's worthwhile to take a step back and think about alternatives. Best luck.
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Well said Didy! Horses for courses; I hate reading things like 'NEVER let the baby sleep with you in your bed.' What works for one child/family may not for another. As cd says, it works perfectly for many. What's more; the cot death advice is to spend the first 6 months with the baby in your room. I could not have moved any of the children into their own rooms before then, but I have friends who had their babies in their own rooms from day 1 and it worked for both parent and child. The co-sleeper was our perfect compromise; co-sleeping without the fear of rolling onto the baby etc. That said, the first 2 slept between us without any problems, but the extra couple of feet on the bed were hugely appreciated last time!
Our children often sleep in our room when my husband is travelling and I haveno problem whatsoever with it, in fact it's really sweet. They also love the comfort of sleeping with me when they are ill and I sleep better knowing that i bthere to repond if they need me. I know that it does not work for every family, but they are only young once and I do not regret a second of 'giving in' to co-sleeping.
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Hi,
Im not sure if your baby is sleeping better yet, but I do hope so.
I am a registered nurse who works in maternity, so I have a bit of experience with newborns!
Below are a few tips that "might" help you.
DO swaddle your baby (swaddling helps them feel protected, like they are still in the womb - you can usually swaddle for the first couple of months before they fight to get their hands out)
DO put a hankerchief or small rag/shirt with your smell on it inside the basket. This gives the baby your smell and reassures them you are nearby. ***Make sure the rag/shirt is well away from their face so there is no chance of suffocation -you can put it at their feet area and they will still be able to smell it.
DO start to get baby into some sort of routine. They are not too young at 8 weeks - we start from day 1 (with changes as they get older)
DO ensure baby is dry, fully fed AND BURPED before putting down. If baby only cries when laying fully down, I recommend tilting the basket slightly at the head (only a few centimetres). Your baby might be feeling discomfort while lying down (especially with a full tummy). Tilting can help relieve pressure from stomach.
DO let you baby cry for 1-2 minutes before picking them up. If it is a little wimper you can wait longer. If a full-on blood-curtling scream, pick them up straight away as they should not be left to cry like that.
DO make sure the room your baby is sleeping in is not too hot or cold, is away from drafts (ie open window) and is quiet. Turn off any phones in room so baby is not startled awake. Room should have some light during day naps and quite dark during night (with exception of night light if needed)
DO NOT let baby sleep in bed with you. I cannot tell you how many horror stories I have heard over my years - some fatal. You have plenty of bonding time outside your sleeping hours..... your child also needs to learn how to sleep alone and eventually gain their own independence.
DO NOT force a dummy/pacifier into the babies mouth. If they do not want it, there is a reason for it.
Im sure there is plenty more I could come up with, but cant think of them right now.
You and your baby WILL get the hang of it - it just takes a little patience on both sides.
I hope some of my points have helped.
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Y02
18 yrs ago
In more years of paediatric nursing than I care to remember, I have never seen a case of harm to a baby because of sharing a bed with parents (although I can imagine how drunken parents may be a danger). I have had plenty of parents admit apologetically that their babies would not sleep alone. They have all been given a hard time by well meaning friends and advisors. There is a wealth of data showing that co-sleeping, baby-wearing and various other methods of showing affection result in more confident and independent children. I have yet to meet a child who never learned to comfort his/herself after being cuddled etc as required. It's just down to what the parent is prepared to do.
I have read about the Arm's Reach Co-sleeper mentioned above though and it does seem like a perfect first cot, especially for parents who have had the fear of God put in them about sleeping with their child. No doubt it leads to better sleep all around.
Some parents prefer rigidity and routine. Others go with the flow. There is no formula.
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"Some parents prefer rigidity and routine. Others go with the flow. There is no formula."
I'll agree with that. However parents need to understand that they reap what they sow. Not saying that co-sleeping is bad. Just that this leads to a certain dynamic. If the parents all of sudden want go off on a romantic weekend alone this will not be as easy as if the baby sleeps in a separate room. On the other hand with co-sleeping you may feel more closeness. Everything is compromise.
Also, and this is crucial: co-sleeping done for the right reasons, such as closeness and affection, is great. Co-sleeping done because the parents cannot set boundaries is bad. Even if you adopt co-sleeping, the child needs boundaries or it will not thrive.
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i have 3 kids and babies who are a few days old can't be spoiled. studies show kids who are held a lot develop feelings of security. you can let them cry it out when they're about 8-12 months old. at that age, they can eat enough to sleep through the night; they can see better and they will learn that you will come back when you leave. when they're first born, they don't know that you'll return. they're too frightened, hungry, cold, etc. Also, babies are used to being in a tight place inside your body. They like being wrapped tightly or they will cry. The tightness reminds them of being inside your body. It'll take some time for them to get used to their limbs as being separate them themselves.
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Hi,
YO2, I am so glad you have never had to experience any fatalities with babies in their parents bed, but I, unfortunately have. This is such a controversial topic which has been played around with for years. I totally understand the need for bonding, but SAFETY comes first. I agree with YO2 that if you MUST have your baby with you in your bed, then the only was is to use a co-sleeper. I did a google search on the topic and have endless articles of infants that have perished due to being smothered. Its tragic. Please see attached article from The New York Times.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=940DE4DA153EF933A0575AC0A96F958260
YO2 is very lucky not to have experienced any tragedies like this, I hope you never do.
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I'm sorry, I have to disagree with AussieGirl...to each his own, but I would definitely recommend sleeping with a newborn over putting them in a separate crib. I very much doubt that, over thousands of years of human evolution, sticking a newborn on his own to sleep immediately after birth was ever a normal practice.
In a quick search, I haven't found any truly reliable, scientific study that shows an increased risk from co-sleeping, in fact, just the opposite, as many of the following links will show. The study mentioned in the article posted by AussieGirl was highly flawed - the authors effectively admit that they did not have enough information to know the actual sleeping arrangements and conditions - and also, I believe, was paid for by the lobby group for the crib industry in the States.
More careful studies have found enormous benefits to co-sleeping. In most countries and cultures where it's practiced as routine, especially Asia, rates of infant death in bed at night are very much lower than in the west.
For more information:
http://www.bfmed.org/ace-files/protocol/cosleeping.pdf
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jped/v84n2/en_v84n2a01.pdf
http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/tami_breazeale.html
http://www.babyreference.com/Cosleeping&SIDSFactSheet.htm
http://ecochildsplay.com/2007/07/19/media-misrepresentation-cosleeping-blamed-for-infants-death/
http://www.hpakids.org/holistic-health/articles/38/1/Co-sleeping-Benefits
http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/sleep/kimmel.html
http://www.babycenter.com.au/baby/sleep/cosleepingpros&cons/
http://www.marchofdimes.com/pnhec/298_29656.asp
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Nicely put Hualaan.
axptguy38, clearly routines work for your family, that's great. However, it is not fair to insist that everyone should do it your way. Most of my friends who are Gona Ford/Ferber etc parents tend to imply that those of us who have chosen not to go down that route are somehow failing our children. It is possible to have discipline and boundaries without doing things your way. I don't think anyone is implying that children should never have their own rooms, but as you know, the SIDS research strongy recommends that babies share their parents' room for at least 6 months. If we never moved them into their own rooms we would have 5 of us sharing 4 walls! I never had a problm moving our children into their own rooms, when THEY were ready.
Again, not all of us want to escape for romantic weekends while we have tiny children. I wouldn't dream of it. Does not make me a bad parent or wife. My husband and I take the view that our children are only going to be really interested in us for about 10 years of their lives (if we're lucky), so we want to be there for that time. We have plenty of couple time while the children sleep. We have plenty of romantic weekends without escaping from our children. I have no issues with people who feel that they have to but I hate prescriptive parenting.
So to the OP, please do not stress. If you are happy for your baby to sleep with you, great. If not, try the various methods suggested above (swaddling etc) until she is ready. I have yet to hear of a child who does not want to sleep in their own room no matter how much their parents have pandered.
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"axptguy38, clearly routines work for your family, that's great. However, it is not fair to insist that everyone should do it your way. Most of my friends who are Gona Ford/Ferber etc parents tend to imply that those of us who have chosen not to go down that route are somehow failing our children. It is possible to have discipline and boundaries without doing things your way."
I never said that. You are misconstruing what I said. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
I said that boundaries and discipline are important regardless of co-sleeping or non. If you have boundaries and discipline certain routines do follow.
I never said that people who want to do co-sleeping are bad parents. I never said that "my way" was the best. Simply that co-sleeping will bring about its own set of consequences. Just like putting baby in another room brings about another set of consequences. Take your pick and live with your choice. Either way.
Heck, if parents don't want to set any boundaries that's their choice too. They will probably regret that choice later but it's their choice.
I have noticed that some parents "choose" co-sleeping even if they want to put baby/toddler in another room because they don't manage to set the boundaries that are needed. I find this wrong because the child will not have the necessary boundaries to thrive if the parents give in. This is completely different from choosing to co-sleep.
"Again, not all of us want to escape for romantic weekends while we have tiny children. I wouldn't dream of it. "
Again, you are misconstruing what I said. I said that you may have to give this up. If you're fine with that, I don't see the problem.
"My husband and I take the view that our children are only going to be really interested in us for about 10 years of their lives (if we're lucky), so we want to be there for that time. We have plenty of couple time while the children sleep. We have plenty of romantic weekends without escaping from our children. I have no issues with people who feel that they have to but I hate prescriptive parenting."
What do you mean by prescriptive in this context?
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'I'll agree with that. However parents need to understand that they reap what they sow. Not saying that co-sleeping is bad. Just that this leads to a certain dynamic.'
Really now, how VERY dire!!! what kind of terrbile dynamic is that i wonder????????
'Also, and this is crucial: co-sleeping done for the right reasons, such as closeness and affection, is great. Co-sleeping done because the parents cannot set boundaries is bad. Even if you adopt co-sleeping, the child needs boundaries or it will not thrive.'
People in India i think always cosleep, so far never heard of one baby being sqashed to death by parents (in india anyways) and that's just the way they do it. Nobody obsesses about boundaries or 'the right reasons' , and it seems to me that most grow up fine.
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Let me try to get my point across again: Some parents are "forced" into co-sleeping when they don't want it because they have not set the proper boundaries. That way the kids are calling the shots. These parents are typically not happy with the situation. Totally different from embracing co-sleeping.
"'I'll agree with that. However parents need to understand that they reap what they sow. Not saying that co-sleeping is bad. Just that this leads to a certain dynamic.'
Really now, how VERY dire!!! what kind of terrbile dynamic is that i wonder????????"
Please don't put words in my mouth. Read what you quoted again. Did I say it was terrible? Nope. I said different. I didn't say it was bad, just different.
"axptguy38, clearly routines work for your family, that's great. However, it is not fair to insist that everyone should do it your way."
I think you don't understand what I mean by routines. I mean things like meals eaten at the same time every day or little bedtime rituals like reading a book. Surely you have this sort of thing. These things make the child feel secure in the knowledge since they know that some events are immutable.
"Nobody obsesses about boundaries or 'the right reasons' , and it seems to me that most grow up fine. "
I would hope no one obsesses about it but children do need boundaries. If you don't set boundaries children aren't happy and thriving. I didn't invent this notion either. Ask any pediatrician, kindergarten teacher, school teacher or child psychologist. Heck, read pretty much any child care book.
I get the impression that you see me as some sort of dictatorial disciplinarian. But nothing could be further from the truth. You seem to have an odd idea of what I term "boundaries". Here are some examples: Basic rules/boundaries like "don't bite" and "don't hit" and "no whining" and "saying please and thank you" or "tidy up your toys before going out or going to bed", "help out with the laundry, cooking and cleaning". These hardly make the place some sort of gulag. They're just simple rules that make the kids conscientious of other people, and make them proud of their contribution. They tell the children that there are some boundaries they cannot cross. We then ensure that we follow through and that the children comply with these rules. If you set boundaries but don't enforce them they are worse than useless.
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oh dear, would people please back off the poor axptguy? I happen to agree with him - each to their own - that is all he is saying! I personally would not sleep with a baby due to the fear or rolling over them and this (in the few times we did end up sleeping with our kids) stresses me out so much that I CAN NOT SLEEP - not at all with the baby in our bed! Total lack of sleep does not make a very efficient mother! Ours have always slept in their cots and we are very close and have enough cuddles outside the bedtimes, I really do not think that sleeping together makes parents and children closer...
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Note: the below has NOTHING to do with the validity co-sleeping or such things. As I said before, co-sleeping or not is a decision that doesn't have a correct answer. The below is an exposition on why in my opinion, and that of pretty much any professional in the field, boundaries are important.
I think people become extremely defensive about their ”way”. A better approach is to listen and evaluate before dismissing (or adopting) ideas.
I have also found that many have an innate suspicion of any parenting method that smacks of “strictness”. They want their child to be free to be creative but they don’t understand the difference between “creative” and “out of control”.
This is of course an age old debate. The venerable Dr. Spock was accused of being permissive way back in the 60s when he was nothing of the sort. While not a disciplinarian, he simply advocated boundaries while ensuring that parents were responsive to the children as individuals.
In my experience parents who do not control their children end up with the headaches, the lack of sleep (or I guess more of it) and the complaints about how their own kids are “difficult”. Their children are often bullies because the parents don’t stop the behavior in time, or refuse to see it. My wife calls this kind of parenting “lack of follow-through”. That’s when the parents threaten punishment but never seem to get around to enacting it, or enact it way too late. Typically boundaries in such families are unclear and the children often mask insecure behavior by acting out. After all, with unclear boundaries they might be punished (or not) for anything, so there is no natural path and incentive towards the correct behavior pattern. And yes, there is a correct behavior pattern. Ensuring a child does not bite and hit does not inhibit that child's spirit or creativity.
Sensible boundaries and routines are not cruel towards children. They are the opposite, giving children security and freedom to act in an environment where they can reasonably predict consequences. They're kids. They're not ready for the chaos of the adult world.
What really bugs me is how some people look at our kids and say that they are “easy” and how “lucky” we are that they are so well behaved. I try to point out that this doesn’t happen magically. The road to those well behaved children is paved with tantrums, anger and sleepless nights. And the road ahead is still very long. And that by the way, with boundaries your kids can we "easy" too, without being robots.
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mrsl
18 yrs ago
I try to avoid these threads because of the level of emotion that they trigger. I also feel that they put undue pressure on new parents who do not fit into the mould of posters who draft more strongly worded opinions. People seem to be labelled 'cruel' versus 'weak' parents when neither extreme is really accurate.
Hopefully Kate71 has been able to pick and choose the snippets that work for her here without getting lost in the madness. I think the problems arise when people post a do/do not list rather than just stating what has worked for them. Children do not come in a box with a 'one size fits all' set of operating instructions. My 3 could not be more different from one another so they have each had a slightly different upbringing. I still find myself justifying why I do things my way to some friends. Somehow, I have found parents in HK more judgemental, which may be down to the different levels of involvement of helpers (a whole other can of worms). This is such a shame as most of us need more support here given that we are further from our families.
Axptguy, I can relate to how frustrated you are by the comments about your 'easy' children. I agree that children learn much of their behaviour and appropriate responses and get irritated by people who hide behind excuses like they have 'high spirited' children rather than demanding appropriate behaviour from them. This is not a dig, but our approach to raising our children is much more akin to that of Dora, cd and Kali. My point is simply that, there is more than one way to skin a cat; it is not only the children who have had to cry it out or those who have more rigourous routines who display good behaviour (although people might think they are so 'easy' if they saw how they behave at home at times!). There are other ways to discipline children and to set expectations.
Back on topic; I am surprised that the Arm's Reach Co-sleeper is so popular. I had to get ours from Singapore, but it is available in HK now (sometimes on the classifieds here, if you are lucky). I also recommend it if you decide to go the co-sleeping route.
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Hi OP,
21 days down the road, I hope things have improved.
I am a mother of 2, a big fan of routines and independent sleeping.
But at 8 days old or even at 29 days, it's all about SURVIVAL. For the parents, it's surviving the tiring days and the even longer nights and for the baby as he learns to feed well and adapt to this big, big world. By all means and I encourage this, try to introduce a set times for bath, nap, bedtime (be it 7pm or midnight, whatever works for your family, it's a good idea to have one). It probably won't work very well at this stage and by all means don't stress yourself about it. Do what works for you now. But it will work out eventually if you keep trying. Swaddling helped both my kids sleep better. And putting them down before they got hysterically tired also helped. Enjoying your baby is really important at this stage because before you know it, you'll be feeling this wave of sadness when you see their first tooth and suddenly realise that the baby days are almost over as they enter toddlerhood.
As for the storm that's been going on for the rest of the thread, I just wonder why we can't agree to disagree. On personal experience, my parenting methods are probably more of xpatguy's. But at the same time, I have learnt to stop judging because every family, every baby is different. My kids sleep through the night independently from a very young age and are generally star eaters....I think they are everything a sleep deprived parent can dream of. they actually enjoy mealtimes and bedtimes. but at the same time, I face the same issues that every parent does - cheekiness, crankiness, potty-training, school anxiety, etc. I think we all pick our battles. I don't think routines make my children angelic, they are sooooooo far from that. But they are not brats either, they are just KIDS. But it's what works for us and we take it from there. I think this discussion will open many, many cans of worms because before you know it, it'll be maids vs no maids, stay home vs working mums, let's not go there and just be the best parent you can be for your kids and try to put our feet up when you can and enjoy it all.....
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I agree with axptguy...I think one point he's been trying to make is referred to as "reactive" co-sleeping versus "non-reactive" co-sleeping. Reactive means that the parents do not really choose co-sleeping, but are just reacting to the fact that they can't get their child to sleep alone. Non-reactive means they have consciously chosen this route.
My wife, from Thailand, considered co-sleeping to be natural, but didn't bring it up because she thought I, from the west, would disapprove. Quite the opposite, though: I actually suggested it. We had our son in bed with us from birth (swaddled in the early days, as per instructions from the hospital), on the mattress between us. I was never worried about smothering, since I sleep on my back and never move (that freaks my wife out a bit; I could be dead and she'd never know it 'til morning).
Our son, now 2.9, sleeps well (sometimes too well?) in his own bed in his own room.
One of the nice things about it was that we never had to experience the extreme fatigue that we read about from other parents. Compared to later stages, the early days and weeks were actually quite easy. Also quite inexpensive: we didn't buy a crib or any baby furniture, used a sling instead of a pram (that made it much easier to go out for dinner or wherever, as well, especially in the -30C temperatures where and when our son was born) and pretty much did without any of the expensive accoutrements that are available, though unnecessary, these days.
We also believe in setting boundaries and enforcing them. I also believe that good boundaries must have good reasons and I have always explained the reasons to our son. Of course, when he was an infant or just entering toddlerhood he couldn't possibly have understood what I was talking about. Nevertheless, he was obviously listening, to the tone if not the words. Surprisingly, I found that his compliance with the rules was *much* better if I did take the time to explain the reasons, even if he didn't understand.
I explained to him why he shouldn't stick his fingers into the electrical sockets. Not only did he comply, as soon as he could talk he started telling us not to stick our fingers into the sockets!
Our son is very affectionate, generally well-behaved, eats everything we give him (and we give him everything we eat, except for the hot chillies), very talkative and intelligent. I like to think that he was born with the potential for all that, but that our parenting can take a fair bit of the credit for his reaching that potential. By the same standard, I think I turned out to be a pretty decent person due in no small part to the efforts of my own parents.
Each family has to find the route they are most comfortable with. Millions of babies have been put to bed in a crib and still turned out alright and billions have slept with their parents and still turned out all right. As mrsl said, the do/do not lists, especially when based on distortions and misinformation.
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"I explained to him why he shouldn't stick his fingers into the electrical sockets. Not only did he comply, as soon as he could talk he started telling us not to stick our fingers into the sockets!"
Kids are so funny that way. They are so enthusiastic about that sort of thing. Our #1 is very diligent about making sure #2 gets the message as well. She goes up to her and stands over her and waggles her finger and says "don't do that! It is dangerous!"
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My two bob's worth after going through it twice, do what you feel is right, if it does not work, seek qualified advice, grandma's remedies, or possibly forums like this are no help, they will cause you more worry than good. Every child is different. You can learn pretty much anything out of a textbook however, NO ONE can teach you how to be a parent, says a man with with two totally healthy though somewhat twisted, in a good way, now teenage delightful children.....enjoy parenthood, theres nothing that compares...
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cd
18 yrs ago
Yes Cara, the only threads I can access are the ones on the home page, since yesterday.
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yep, only works if you click on the specific thread, can't access main forums.
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cd
18 yrs ago
Yeh, same, but it wouldn't even let me reply to the specific thread on the homepage, so couldn't let you know I was having problems too. But all back to normal.
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Without getting into the parenting styles debate; I would like to endorse the Co-Sleeper too. I posted here months ago about my lack of sleep because of a fear of rolling onto our baby. On the advice of some wonderful posters we bought an Arm's Reach Co-sleeper (I think it was about $3500 from B2B and was worth every penny). I now sleep like a baby; and our baby does too. For anyone who wants one, keep an eye out on the TradingPost here you might get one for a fraction of the new price if you are very lucky.
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I haven't read the whole thread and I know t's an old one now, but has anyone mentioned the fact that we are mammals and that no other mammal expects it's offspring to sleep anywhere other than 'the nest'? Our son slept in bed with us, between the pillows for 8 months until we bought a crib as he was starting to crawl and it was no longer safe for him to nap alone on the bed. He was breastfed on demand and cried remarcably little. He's now a well adjusted, extremely social, positive and cuddly 18 month old and I have no doubt that the secure and 'cosey' first months played a more than minor roll in his disposition.
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if people are still reading this thread... i'd like to ask for advice;
my 3 mo falls asleep on the breast at night and sleeps very well between my husband and myself in our bed, waking up a couple of times for feeding, which I don't mind at all.
My question is.. what about for naps? he needs to be rocked to sleep (I reserve sleeping on the breast thing to his night time sleep), and when I try putting him down in his cot, he wakes right up. Sometimes, i manage to put him down on the bouncer or the sofa, where he naps for about 20 minutes each time. Sometimes, when I sleep side by side with him, he is able to nap for about 40 minutes to an hour.
I might look into putting him in his cot for night time sleep in a couple of months' time, but at the meantime, what do I do with his nap situation? Where should he be napping? On our bed, since he sleeps well there at nights? Or should I start training him to nap in his cot, so that it may be easier to move him to the cot for night time sleep?
I am fine with him being very attached to us, but I am concerned that he may not be getting enough sleep during the day. At nights, he sleeps for about 10 hours from 9pm. His total nap time ranges from an hour to about 2.5 hours. So, in total, he gets around 11 to 12.5 hours of sleep each day, which seems very little... from what I read anyways. Perhaps he is OK with less sleep, since he is quite a happy baby.
Any input would be great!
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"I might look into putting him in his cot for night time sleep in a couple of months' time, but at the meantime, what do I do with his nap situation? Where should he be napping? On our bed, since he sleeps well there at nights? Or should I start training him to nap in his cot, so that it may be easier to move him to the cot for night time sleep?"
You have to wean him off the rocking. A very important skill for babies to learn is to fall asleep by themselves, and to fall back asleep by themselves.
It will be a bit traumatic, mostly for you, but in my opinion well worth it.
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how do i go about weaning off the rocking? just put him down when awake and hope he'll fall asleep? how long does it take for it to work? does this mean he won't get much sleep until it starts working?
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"how do i go about weaning off the rocking? just put him down when awake and hope he'll fall asleep? how long does it take for it to work? does this mean he won't get much sleep until it starts working?"
Well, at three months old rocking is not a problem. In fact until 5-6 months you should perhaps accept that you will be doing this often. However around 4-5 months you can gently start to put baby down so that he gets used to sleeping alone.
For actual weaning, at 5-6 months, there are several methods. I am a fan of "cry it out". Many are not. Crying it out works but it may be a bit traumatic, especially for the parents. I doubt babies remember it at all.
- Before nap or bedtime, make sure baby is tired and that the last 20-30 minutes are not too exciting. Make sure nappy is empty and baby is not hungry.
- Put in crib and say "good night" with a kiss etc... Then leave the room. Do not linger.
- If baby starts crying, which is likely, wait 6-8 minutes. These will the longest 6-8 minutes of your life. Use a watch since you will think an hour has gone by after 30 seconds.
- After 6-8 minutes, go back in and make soothing noises, perhaps caressing baby. Do not pick baby up. Do not linger. Do not look distressed. Say good night again and leave the room. Also check that he hasn't pooped.
- Repeat until baby falls asleep.
- The first few times it may take 20-60 minutes, but if you are firm and consistent that will taper off very rapidly. Baby will learn that you always come back but that he cannot demand your presence.
I know it sounds a bit harsh but as baby grows older you will constantly have to set boundaries. If you don't you will raise a brat. This is just the first boundary. It is not cruel. It is fostering independence.
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you can get hold of tracy hogg's book the baby whisperer. It really works and is less traumatic for all involved. but read up, pick one method and stick with it, whichevery it maybe. Otherwise, baby will just be awfully confused.
I am as firm an opponent of the CIO method as axpatguy is a fan of it.
boundaries are a must. CIO in my opnion is not.
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gwern
17 yrs ago
I've been reading this thread with interest.
My'babies' are now young adults. There is always some new method on the market to help make babies sleep.! If you know your child is not hurting, hungry or uncomfortable BUT just plain tired then you have to decide what your tolerance level is.
I had my first child in bed with me from day one, there were loads of books on the market that encouraged '3 in a bed' I too could breast feed on a whim (yes my husband encouraged this too...no broken nights for him!) I felt bonded and 'Mother Earth' BUT when you do want your life back it's a battle. Your child is used to being in your bed/room and doesn't take too kindly to being moved out. Sleeping on her own was impossible and even up until she was 16 years old found it hard to put herself back to sleep when she woke up, coming in to tell me. When my second child was born I decided to be firmer...lots of love, cuddles and attention but better ground rules. A whole different life. I didn't need to do control crying as he went down to sleep as that was the expectation.
You do need to do what feels right....but you may find that on reflection hindsight is a wonderfully useless thing!
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Gwern, my hubby was brought up with the CIO since he was a baby and he has ALWAYS had problems with insomnia. I grew up on the family bed, and i dont have and have never had problems falling back to sleep.
don let your little girl tell u that it's your fault.
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i started the baby whisperer's method today with my 3 month old. i am doing naps first, before moving onto night sleep (the latter involves feeding issue as well, so will conquer one by one).
my back and arms are very sore from picking baby up from his crib time and time again to get him to sleep alone. there were 4 naps, and at each time, baby cried on and off 10-40 minutes while being picked up and put back down in his crib. not easy and feels like he's crying too much. with all this crying, he only slept 10-40 minutes each time.
does this sound normal? will things improve soon? i.e. take shorter time getting him to sleep, and sleep longer periods at a time..
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Some reading around when the biological nap times are most likely to occur can really help lessen crying when starting to teach a baby (4-5 months) to fall asleep on their own (I like Weissbluth's Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child for the solid research). That combined with a consistent routine prior to naps starts to work fairly quickly. You will still end up rocking when it doesn't always .... but once you see that it CAN happen, it will release you from the burden of having to rock, pace, push etc And your baby is learning a very valuable skill. Not to be distressed at the prospect of sleeping alone, but to feel secure and comforted that mummy/daddy has cuddled them and put them down at the appropriate time, when they are suitably tired and ready to sleep.
With my 3, it was all about survival in the early days. At about 4-5 months they were capable of learning to go off to sleep themselves, and at 6-7 months were able to learn to sleep through the night without needing a b/f at night (nutrition or comfort).
I outline this information because i think it can help avoid unnecessary crying - an idea of what is realistically achievable (offered with the understanding that every baby and parent is different).
It is definitely a learned skill ... persevere and be consistent as best you can. And don't worry when it doesn't work .... Rome wasn't built in a day!
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The question you need to ask yourself is "How can the most amount of people in the family get the most amount of sleep?" Safe co-sleeping is one method which works for so many families.
Nursing your baby to sleep is fine until he/she outgrows the need. And he/she will. An unhurried child is a joy to behold. Crying is not necessary before your child moves to the next phase. Enjoy this stage...soon enough your baby will be a toddler and before you know it, a teen!
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Sibelius,
Thank you for sharing your experience. Having started this 'regime' now for a few days, I understand more about my baby's sleep pattern and when it is the best time to put him down in his crib. Things are going quite well now. I am hoping we will all get the hang of this by the end of the week.
Ruth in Canada,
We actually share our bed with our baby at nights, and nurse him to sleep for his night sleep. We are very happy with this arrangement at this time. The reason I am trying to train my baby to sleep on his own is so that he can nap better during the day when I cannot sleep with him all the time. I also do not believe he can nap well being held or in the bjorn.
I am treasuring each moment with my baby, as like you say, he will soon be a toddler and a teen! THinking about this, I already miss him! :)
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