Posted by
andyGeek
18 yrs ago
Hi all
I have a had a good read around this forum and it seems really useful so I thought I would say hi and hopefully get some people to point us in the right direction for our families potential needs...
We are 2 adults and a 1 year old child currently renting in UK, living well with me self employed, working from home and having the ability to work anywhere in the world as long as I have a decent internet connection. After visiting Hong Kong for a week a couple of years ago the city left a really good impression on us and seemed to be the perfect mix of East and West.
We love Asia and we would really like to live in HK for 6 months or so a year but our accomodation budget would be about $15,000 HK a month all in (management fee etc) for somewhere that would ideally have 3 bedrooms and be furnished but could make do with 2 bedrooms at a push. Is this budget realistic for a small family appartment?
In terms of location of this appartment we stayed over Kowloon way last time and like it but we have no preference for where to live other than there should be easy access to the city, ideally some child friendly parks nearby and not some walled / expat only community where we don't get to mix with native Honk Kongese (Chinese)!
Any recommendations?
Thanks again in advance
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If you don't mind where you live then 15k is easily doable for a two bedroom if not 3, Sai Kung, Lantau spring to mind immediately if you want a larger sized flats and greenery. I actually don't know what the rents are out in those areas but there are plenty of posters on here that live out over there who would be able to help. You might even be able to pick up a two bedroom in South Horizons for that kind of money which is on the island and very well connected, but it would be cramped as would anywhere on the Island which is centrally located. Not sure about Kowloon never looked. If you don't mind living in an old building then there will be options but you will need to have a good old hunt around, there are deals to be had.
I think the issue you might have is lease, If you find a good deal a landlord might not be so keen on having to find a new tenant after just six months.
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Thanks for the quick reply :)
If we go for it we would probably stay at the Ibis or a short term managed accomodation for a couple of weeks (max 4) whilst we get our bearings and view many properties ourself but it's good to know the budget would be doable!
Can I also ask these appatments that have gyms etc are these facilities usually included with the rent?
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Another major issue (and I realize this is outside of what the OP asked, so s/he might have figured this out already) would be your visa situation and being allowed to work in Hong Kong.
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I am a UK citizen so get 180 days to stay automatically right?
As for work I would not need to work in Hong Kong as all my work is internet based (UK) so I would effectively be working in the UK, being paid in the UK, paying taxes in UK and only spending my UK earnt money in Hong Kong and not receiving any monies in Hong Kong. We have lived in several places under this arrangement before and not had any issues.
Lantau and Sai Kung both look nice but Lantau maybe 'seems' a little further from the city using the maps I can see here on the web?
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South Horizons which is on the south side of the island or Laguna City which is over in Kowloon are huge apartment complexes built by cartel property developers. They come with AWESOME swimming pools, during the weekends they tend to get crowded but there is more that just one swimming pool at those complexes and during the week its quiet and when I used to get most of my sunning done. Gyms they do come with, but do not expect a lot for the kind of rent you are looking at, its cheap to join a private one anyway. Also if you end up living at one of the mid income apartment complexes I mentioned, it will be cramped even if you just got a two bedroom for the kind of rent you are talking about, and be sure that the landlord enables you to use the facilities before signing any contract, quite often they sign a lease and don't bother sorting you out, when you try to get a membership card the management say talk to your landlord and it becomes a drama.
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I am thinking more for my wife and child in terms of facilities so inclusive use of swimming pools would be good if we are a loooong way away from a paying swimming pool but 20 / 30 mins on bus / MTR is not a big deal. Looking so far I think the ideal location would be near to a MTR station within an older traditional feeling area rather than modern / swish appartment blocks with parks nearby. Sai Kung looks nice from what I have seen so far but no MTR although bus links look ok.
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try taikooshing, quarry bay area even as far as chai wan.
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andyGeek:
You should not have a problem getting the 180 visa free period.
However, this does not permit you to work or take up employment in Hong Kong. I hear what you are saying about the work being Internet-based, but if you are physically in Hong Kong while performing it this might considered as working here.
In practice, the probability of getting caught (assuming it is considered working, which would be illegal) might not be particularly high. However, depending on your risk appetite and desire to do things properly, you might want to consult an immigration lawyer.
Also, if you were considered to be working in Hong Kong for more than 60 days in a tax year, you would be liable for salaries tax.
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Hi again beachball.
As far as I am aware as I am not paid or registered in Hong Kong as working then I shouldn't pay tax in Hong Kong as logging into a server in the UK / checking UK email etc from a rented appartment in Hong Kong wont make me classed as working in Hong Kong by the normal UK definitions but I will look into this a little more now that you think there might be some risk with what I am proposing.
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"As far as I am aware as I am not paid or registered in Hong Kong as working then I shouldn't pay tax in Hong Kong"
AFAIK you would not be paying income tax in HK as long as UK tax is higher. You would be paying tax in the UK. Which is much higher by the way.
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If you're looking for that size and budget with nice facilities that's connected to the MTR station & the mall, try Tung Chung. Just walk in any property agency from around there and take a good look. But it would take you around 40 mins. by mtr going to Central or the HK side. Good luck!
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190k
18 yrs ago
Fairview park in Yuen Long you can get a house with three B'rooms and a small garden. Very good public transport to the city 25 minutes to central and kowloon.
However you visa would not let you work no matter that the connection is UK. Work of any kind is not permitted. For example a visitor who helps out his brothers restruant by serving food and is not paid in any way is considered to be working. both brothers are liable for heavy fines and jail
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the issue is not whether you are working or not, it is that you are residing in Hong Kong. if you plan to stay here for 180 day chunks and then do a visa run, eventually you will get caught, and that will be the end of that....for example, you can't do volunteer work here on a visitor visa as well...you really should ask these questions to someone more qualified (Immigration dept) than us yahoos here, lol. http://www.immd.gov.hk/
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you can check out park island (www.parkisland.com.hk) as it seems to fulfil most of your requirements. it is relatively close to central (25 minutes by ferry), you can probably get a decent sized apartment for hkd15k, it has a good mix of expats and locals, and has excellent clubhouses (3 in fact). one thing you would have to note though is that taxis are only permitted on the island between the hours of 12am and 6am. at all other times you would have to rely on the ferry services and shuttle bus services.
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Hi AndyGeek!
I guess if u like Kowloon, I could suggest u NEW WORLD HOTEL(Monthly hotel suite) right facing the Harbour view(seaside). Stay in touch with the sea beauty morn, eve. Yes the hotel has gym and other facilities u r lookin for. U could use the KCR station subway for the MTR(Super convenient). Lot of expats do not prefer such places, but to what u require it think this is just the right place. Its the heart of Kowloon, with all facilities most convenient such as Ferry Pier, Bus, MTR, Mini Bus, Park.Pubs, Bars,YMCA is just 5 mins away for ur kids activities.It's got everything u want(including native Hongkongese).
Monthly budget starts from 8k a month, and sure u would get fix in ur budget.
May i also suggest you the Harbour View Horizon(also a hotel suite) for monthly accomodation also facing the harbour view,and with all convenience around. Need more help, feel free to ask.
I currently stay in TST and i just feel it is so perfect for u.!
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Wow just woke up in grey, recession hit UK and have all these great, friendly replies :)
Work:
As far as I am concerned and other countries where I have 'worked' I consider my 6 month stay as an extended business trip or holiday. I will not be taking anything out of Hong Kong, only putting into the economy. Business travellers don't pay taxes if they log into their emails / computers back home from where they are visiting which is literally all I will be doing? Places that have double taxation agreements with the UK mean you shoudln't ever be taxed twice if you live abroad and seeing as I will pay UK taxes I should be fine.
Where to live:
Tung Chung sounds ok - 30/40 mins isn't too bad to go into the city if we need. I will have a look into this...
Fairview park in Yuen Long - this looks further out on Google Maps but quicker to get into the city and the appeal of a larger house for the little man to play in would be a major +
Park Island - This looks very impressive but a little scary in terms of the completeness of it all. Would we need to do anything??? Also do native Hong Kongese live in such developments?
NEW WORLD HOTEL - Is this the same as the "New World Renaissance Hotel" ? This looks very expensive but an absolutely amazing location. Could we get two bedrooms in a room in the hotel like an appartment or would it literally just be a hotel room as that would be too restrictive for 3 of us for 6 months?
Harbour View Horizon - Again this looks great but we wouldn't want to live as a family from a hotel room for 6 months. We would need some kitchen facilities and 2 seperate bedrooms.
Thanks again and I await further feeback :)
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Hong Kongers will live anywhere their wallets allow them to and feel is good value for their money or provide a good environment to live in. There are a few places in Hong Kong which are predominantly expat, but there is also always a substantial local population as well.
I don't think work visa is going to be an issue personally from what the sounds of what you are doing, I am sure you could probably get some kind of business visa anyway which would allow you to do what you want to do legally, you should check with the immigration and see what is on offer, but don't sweat it if there isn't. You would however be consuming Hong Kong public goods and services whilst living here and earning. That being said I think the law is similar to the UK, you are not compelled to pay taxes if you live outside of the SAR for more than 180 days. If you renewed your visa and stayed a year whilst receiving an income, technically that would be free loading. I don't think that is to much of an issue, its not like thousands of people are coming over every year (actually there are quite a few over stayers and serial visa extenders, but their ability to generate income is limited by lack of work visa or ID card, so it is unlikely the vast majority would earn a taxable income anyway, even if you include the hooker population of Wan Chai in that number). I think the SAR government can turn a blind eye occasionally to someone who has extended their visa by six months and makes their living over the internet. You would actually be better of paying Hong Kong taxes rather than UK, and for the year you are away, I am guessing there would be no taxes, though there are people who live and work here and get paid over there and are required to pay UK taxes. Thinking about it, I am not sure why that is.
You should check with immigration though on the types of visa they offer, coming over for a year or six months legitimately if you can is better than doing it surreptitiously under the auspices of a tourist visa. If that is the only option fair enough.
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Just cos you pay UK taxes doesn't mean you don't pay HK taxes. HK taxes money from employment arising within HK, ie those who physically work here. You will be liable for HK taxes. The good news is that you can claim what you pay in HK taxes against your UK tax bill, so all you pay in the UK is the difference. IOW, you will end up paying part of your UK taxes to HK govt.
My advice is that you plan on leaving the UK for the whole UK tax year of 2009-2010. That way, you won't pay UK taxes. You can always seek a HK visa for that one year - since you won't be relying on public funds, I believe HK will be very open to having you.
Some caveats: (1) your current clients need to know, for their tax purposes, that you are a HK resident.
(2) UK tax rules may change in 2009-10. Given the current Labour govt's woes, I won't be surprised if they raise taxes to fund public sector wage increases and govt borrowing, or crack down on mobile folks like you.
Good luck!
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Yes but there are some people that work here get paid in the UK and have taxes deducted at source and don't pay anything in Hong Kong ( I have no idea how this is, what they have said on here). They are technically on secondment to their company in Hong Kong, they have moaned about having to pay UK taxes rather than Hong Kong taxes, on here before which is understandable, because it is effectively double for top income earners in the UK. Though the people that did complain did said they got a housing allowance which allowed them to afford housing they would never be able to.
To be honest I don't really understand how you can live in Hong Kong and not pay taxes, what kind of visa would the individual be on and surely the HK government would not give out a work visa and not expect there to be tax revenue. The other thing I am confused about, is if that is the case, as I understand it for both Hong Kong and the UK if you live outside for over 180 days then you are not liable to pay any income tax. So even if you are on secondment to the Hong Kong office and this is in fact permanent and is done so for accounting purposes and payroll. Even if you are taxed at source as is the case in the UK, would you not be able to claim that back by virtue of having lived outside of the country for over 180 days??
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Hey,
I'd recommend that you actually plan a trip here for the purpose of looking at each of the accom options. I moved here some months ago, and I did a lot of house hunting through the net, and what you see there and what you actually get is very different.
I personally think Tung Chung is quite a far way out, and there is not too much there, if you are wanting some of the more lively activity of Kowloon or Hong Kong Island. South Lantau Island is even more remote, and you are likely to need a car there. Sai Kung is a lovely spot, but again a car, or a lot of transfers on public transport will be required.
You can easily organise with real estate agents to take you on a tour of available properties - this is the best way to see what you can get for your money. To be honest, I doubt $15K will get you very much, unless you want to live far out.
Other thing to consider - you are likely to require a HK ID card, in order to rent a property - definately research this, I don't know if it is correct or not - but I think you need to have more than a visitor's visa to obtain one.
HK is a great place to live, and I really enjoy the culture - but I'd definately put in the research in person before moving your family here.
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cd
18 yrs ago
You probably woudn't be able to get a lease on a house or apartment for 6months, most leases are 2 years. Your best bet would be a serviced apartment.
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ID card for property rental is a very good point. Most landlords will require it. I am not sure if it is law, if it is not you will be able to negotiate it, but for some landlords not having one will be a deal breaker, they may feel if things go wrong they might not have the same legal recourse as they would with a HK ID card holder. I have no idea how true that is in reality but the perception will most certainly exist
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"To be honest I don't really understand how you can live in Hong Kong and not pay taxes, what kind of visa would the individual be on and surely the HK government would not give out a work visa and not expect there to be tax revenue."
If you get paid in another country, I think that the taxes go over there.
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Hi all
Thanks so much for the replies.
Since my last post we have decided we are going to come to Hong Kong in April / May 2009 :) There is no logical reason why we can't / shouldn't so we are going to do it!
The plan is to stay somewhere for 4 weeks or so (serviced appartment / hotel etc) and pound the streets of Hong Kong looking at all the various options. Once we get a real feel for the various areas we will try and get somewhere for 6 months initially. Worst case is we stay in some sort of long stay hotel but I have seen 6 month agreements / serviced appartments that look nice (on internet!) which will give us a home from home and we wont be forced into anything we don't like 100%. After the 6 months who knows...
My wife has been also been active on various forums talking to mothers and finding out about facilities etc which will be one of the most important factors for our decision (alongside reliable internet in the place!) and again we are not stupid so will make sure we get things sorted before committting.
As for working...
The 180 days out of the country doesn't make any difference as far as we are aware from previous adventures abroad as ALL my income is from UK business and all business is registered in UK. With me literally sitting in a appartment for 6 hours a day mon-fri, making UK money, paying everything in UK then I think we will be ok but you have given me enough pointers to research this fully which we will also do.
I will post back on here when we have made some more progess and might even get some of you friendly people a beer when we arrive next May!
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I pay all my National insurance / Tax so hopefully my wonderful state pension will be as full as possible if/when I/we get to that age :)
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By this IslandHopper you mean I am in a somewhat unique position or I am just stupid? From previous experience there is no tax advantages available to me by being our of the UK for more than 180 days due to the way my business interests are but I am going to look into this more in the coming days as I would hate to be missing a trick!
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Ok IslandHopper I will do - thanks. Where can I find the tax rates? Sure I will manage via Google myself.
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andyGeek, you can probably start here: http://www.ird.gov.hk/eng/welcome.htm
BTW are you working in the "geek" arena?
"My wife has been also been active on various forums talking to mothers and finding out about facilities etc which will be one of the most important factors for our decision (alongside reliable internet in the place!) and again we are not stupid so will make sure we get things sorted before committting."
As you have probably figured out right now HK is a wonderful place to raise kids if you make a decent salary.
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I think you would most definitely be missing a trick. I would look at your structure really really carefully and perhaps talk to a professional.
"If you get paid in another country, I think that the taxes go over there"
I appreciate that may be the case, but I very much doubt the SAR government is going to keep quiet for very long if they issue you with a Hong Kong work visa, know you are consuming public goods and services and are paying nothing in tax. I cannot see any government accepting that, nor should they. It is tantamount to tax evasion. They may tolerate it for some period but not indefinitely Perhaps there is some loophole, I don't know. As far as UK citizens go it is not ideal either, if you are in the top tax bracket then you would be paying double what you would pay in Hong Kong.
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> If you get paid in another country, I think that the taxes go over there
That is not consistent with my understanding. Taxes might _also_ go there, but AFAIK if you are based in Hong Kong and work here, then you are liable for tax here. In fact, many expat packages (used to) involve payments abroad and these are/were subject to HKG salaries tax if they related to work done here (again, my understanding).
In fact, this goes back to my previous posting about the work permit - I have always been under the impression that being based and working in Hong Kong meant that one i) required a work permit, and ii) would be liable for taxation. Hence, my above advice to the OP to seek some official and/or expert guidance on this (rather than relying on a message board).
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I am working in the Geek arena yeah axptguy38 - why you ask?. I own / run / manage a few web sites and am up to speed with most programming languages as well as SQL / Windows Servers. There might even be potential to expand one of the web sites into China but we will have to see about that but I would have to speak to some Chinese friends about that :) Feel free to PM if you are in a similar postion.
Will take a look at the Inland Revenue ASAP which will be fun I am sure - thanks for the link though!
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Every place I have rented in the past has come with electricity and water switched on already, and if you do manage to get a place without an ID card and the place needs these utilities turned on then such an understanding landlord will probably do the needful for you. Mobile phone and internet can be done pay as you go, though both are pain in the behinds. Local bank account might be a problem, but I think you could probably open one with just a passport, though I am more than prepared to stand corrected on that one.. HSBC premier would probably do it for you anyway. Otherwise being charged for every withdrawal you made from an ATM for over a year would end up costing a small fortune.
It seems that the poster is going to get a serviced place, I have had one in the past, and I don't remember signing any agreement or having to provide my ID card for that, they are designed for people who don't have one anyway.
My view is it is probably better to come here legitimately if you can. I am certain there will be some kind of tax saving to be had if you do not reside in the UK for 180 days, you may need to structure it, but there will be one.
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Just a quick tip about ATMs - if you are with the Nationwide in the UK you do not get charged for ATM Withdrawls Worldwide which has saved me £100s over the years. As for a mobile I think I will get a UK 3 PAYG sim card and top it up over the web as Hong Kong is classed as one of their At Home places meaning I could make calls AND / OR use data whilst in HK as if I am in the UK and people coudl ring me and I wouldn't be charged for receiving calls!
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About ATM - Nationwide might not charge for overseas w/ds but their exchange rate is one of the worst around.
The pound is sliding and will slide some more. You are better off opening a HK bank account and convert your pounds now.
The above puzzlement about tax is right - essentially Andy wants to be a tourist for 6 months, thus avoiding HK income tax. Just a friendly warning: if you are caught working, or wiring in money frequently, you may be in serious trouble.
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Hi - I will check their exchange rates and take you point on board regarding moving money into a Hong Kong account.
As for the employment / visa issues we have done some more research and we are investigating what it would take to get a working visa but depending on your take on the various clauses etc my particular position seems to fall in the middle!
However I do not want to jeopardise future business opportunities in HK and China by cutitng corners so rest assured I have taken on board your advice and comments.
On a side note - do you lot think Lamma Island would be suitable for a larger home for our budget as we will not need to be doirectly in the city seeign as I am working from home?
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"On a side note - do you lot think Lamma Island would be suitable for a larger home for our budget as we will not need to be doirectly in the city seeign as I am working from home?"
Lamma does have its charms but it seems like a love it or hate it place. The thing with HK is that if you are on an outlying island all deliveries, which are quite important in HK, become much less convenient and more expensive. Also, while Lamma is hardly isolated, it's a bit trickier to just run out to get something or out to dinner with a ferry ride in they way.
If I personally wanted a larger home I would go for some place in NT before Lamma.
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Will look into NT too. Lamma seems to have lots of smaller shops / restaurants and a nice community feel (over the web!) but will see when we arrive. Just an update on the visa situation... We have had advice from a company who deal with this every day and they have said:
"While your stay in Hong Kong, if
1) you have got no clients in Hong Kong.
2) you’re not delivering any of your services to any clients in Hong Kong.
3) you do not have a Hong Kong registered business.
4) you are not working for anyone in Hong Kong.
Then, you can enter Hong Kong on the 180 days visa as a visitor. You can manage your business remotely in U.K."
So sounds like we are ok
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If it is an outlying island then I would rather look at Lantau then Lamma, Lamma has never had a good connotation for me and much prefer Lantau
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