Posted by
forsure7
17 yrs ago
I moved to HK from the UK a few months ago attracted by a well paid job and a chance to experience a new culture. I have lived in other parts of the world since childhood and and came here with a very positive and open attitude. This has slowly diminished and been replaced with a sense of isolation, frustration, over sensitivity, anger and at times deep despair. I am sure with time things will get better. However I simply don't feel I have the energy to even get through the day. While I've met a few nice people I find it super superficial here and difficult to meet like minded people. This can't be an uncommon experience. I would rather not deal with my situation by downing bottles and doing the LKF nightly worship which will just make things worse. In my 20s I suffered from pretty bad depression and the same patterns have emerged which really frightens me. I would appreciate any positive, practical help and suggestions
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test
17 yrs ago
Hong Kong is very superficial and the expats are often superficial utilitarians who like it here because "the infrastructure is great" or because taxes are low.
HK isn't for everyone and I will be glad to leave next year. It's just too crowded, too noisy and lacking in charm and culture (of the everyday kind).
I have to say that you sound depressed, though. Is it seasonal?
Maybe you should just get yourself to somewhere less vapid.
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Thank you for your reply
I don't think it's seasonal, the penny just dropped in terms of the reality of this place and hope that I can find a little depth somewhere.
It's has only been 2 1/2 months so I think I should give a while longer before running off. Long term it isn't for me but if at all possible would like to do at least a year. I underestimated leaving all my friends (support network etc) behind.
I need to remember to breathe and try to look at it as a temporary thing.
Thanks again.
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My benchmark has always been that the first six weeks or so in HKG are full of excitement for newbies, then slowly the realities of life - the less appealing aspects of the place (and sometimes, your job) - start to hit you. However, if you can get through the first six months or so, you will find that things start to get better.
It is not unknown for people to arrive in a new place, be totally overwhelmed by the sheer foreignness of it all, and decide almost immediately to return home. So you are doing well, at least you are still in HKG!
Stick it out for a few more months, look around for some opportunities to join up in recreational or even church activities, and count your blessings. You are probably better off economically in HKG than in your home country, and if you save money, and avoid the temptation to spend too much, you will end up better off financially. You will also be a far more rounded and capable human being after a few years in a place like HKG.
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Thank you for all kind replies and your suggestions.
I agree that a practice in giving gratitude is definitely important at a time when some people are losing their jobs. My team at work consists of 100% locals, many of whom have been with the company for over 15 years; that and lack of real support network here are the two toughest things. I'm an exercise freak so keeping fit comes naturally and is one of the things that helping to keep me sane (just about).
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190k
17 yrs ago
Join one of the Hash House Harriers just do a google search. wanchai Hash runs on Sunday afternoon and is very friendly and full of non-superficial people
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If you are the only westerner in the workplace you definitely need to hook up with a buddy or two, people with whom you can talk about office type problems. You cannot, ever, talk openly with your subordinates about anything important, unless you are telling them what to do.
Who is your boss? Somebody based in HKG, or do you report back to your home country? If you are totally on your own in the workplace you definitely need to find a network - somewhere, somehow.
Easier said, than done, unfortunately, in a place like Hong Kong. If you have any slight interest in church, you might find some like-minded people at, say, Union Church in Kennedy Road. Otherwise, try contacting some of the charities, like the Red Cross, and explore volunteer opportunities. Maybe St James Settlement, or China Coast Community, for example. Or St Stephens Society.
In fact, read something about the life and history of Jackie Pullinger (who founded the St Stephens Society). If her story does not inspire you to find ways of getting outside your current problems, nothing will!
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HK is one of the few places I've been where most people remember what it was like when they first arrived and are quite happy to help out a new person. I work in a 100% local office too and it is fine, not people I socialise with outside of work, but are nice enough in the work place. If you want to enjoy life then I'm sorry but you have to make a bit of an effort. I'm personally not a church goer so the above suggestions wouldn't help me, not sure about you. I'm an avid sports person (not very good mind you, but in HK most sport is social rather than too competitive) so why not try joing a sports club which offers a sport you play... or one you don't and just do it as a networking event with some sports thrown in there. A cheap club to join and the obvious one for newbies is Valley. www.valleyrfc.com . They do rugby hockey and netball. Woud be worth a shot. Otherwise go to some networking events, the chambers of commerce do some good ones (not sure about the british chamber, but I know auscham and intercham do some good mixers). Or find a hiking group or whatever you are into... in HK you need to meet the right 3 people, they are people who think along the same lines as you as to what is fun, and they know a lot of people who also do. So go out and try going to things which might have those 3 people at them. But try and be a little bit more postive, ever heard like attracts like. Personally I don't want to hang out with someone who has been in HK 3 months and hates it, someone who has been in hk 3 months and a bit lonely but out there mixing it up and making a real effort, now that is someone I'd have the time of day for. Good luck, if you want to make it work and enjoy the wide variety of things on offer in HK you will. Have a good 2009!
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Ed
17 yrs ago
http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/directory/expat-fitness-leisure/
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Thank you all for your suggestions and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
I will be hitting the town tonight with my dancing shoes on.
It's good to have a little feedback from people who've also been there!
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To be honest, in Hong Kong you don't make very many real friends, its a transient city, always has been. In the run up to 97 everyone knew it was being handed back to the Chinese, and every one was planning for what to do after China took over, since then very few people come out here with the expectation that they are going to be here for the rest of their lives.
In short for an expat it is a fair weather friend town, and ultimately I have been in Hong Kong for 35 years and keep in touch with 3 people who I grew up with. I haven't really read much of the advice that has been given, I know a couple who have given advice are old china hands, this particular OCH has seen them come and seen them go, sometimes I choose to make friends sometimes I don't, If you really want to combat isolation get a girlfriend or boyfriend or get a dog, but don't expect to make much more than fair weather friends in this town, its just not built for much more than that.
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cd
17 yrs ago
Disagree with DB, i've been here 11 1/2 years and virtually all our friends have been here at least 9 years, most many more.
The suggestion of joining a Hash is a good one. My husband joined one the first 2 years we were here, it was men onlky, but on oublic holidays they always did family runs, with bbq's in the country parks. We met lots of people from all different walks of life.
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Try 35 years mate, my parents 40 and try having gone to primary secondary school losing my virginity going to college coming back then getting a job etc etc, You imagine just how many people in this city whose lives have touched mine and how many I have touched.
I am sure you have wonderful friends a great husband nice social life and all, I have had many wonderful friends too, and the vast majority turn out to be fair weather because unlike London or Small town America or even big town USA people do not retire in Hong Kong or look at it as anything more than temporary and its something you only really figure out when they leave or so do you.
I appreciate you have been here for a little over a decade, but that is a newbie as far as I am concerned. So you know where everything is now, and where to get your groceries and do your furniture shopping. You let me know when either your friends leave or you do ten years later how many you actually stay in touch with.
Like I say I go through phases, sometimes I choose to make friends sometimes I don't bother, I can count on one hand and on less than three fingers how many of even my best friends I have stayed in contact with properly, and that's part of Hong Kong I'm afraid, everyone is ultimately going somewhere else, but I wouldn't mistake current closeness with depth. I can tell you that right now as someone who has been here 3 times as long as you.
It is possible to make enduring relationships in Hong Kong, I have done it and plenty of other people do, but compared to anywhere else in the world, the success rate is abysmal and that is a fact of life and my loss because I choose to live here and something you only really figure out when you have been here this long seen them come and go look back at everything and ask yourself whether there is anything strange going on.
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DB,
Just as a matter of interest, where do you plan to retire, eventually? Presumably not in Hong Kong, although two of my former British work colleagues have done so, one because he really had no choice, and the other as a matter of preference. But it will probably be just as difficult for you to adjust to life elsewhere as it is, or was, for most of us to adjust to life in Hong Kong.
My first stint in HKG was in the late seventies, early eighties, then I came back again 10 years later for another 8 or so years. A few people I knew the first time around were still there, and a couple of them, and also a few from my second stint, are life-long friends. We need each other, to regurgitate the stories, stories which only ex-Hongkongers can share.
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I have not decided, I have at least 10 years to think about that. I have money which means options are open, It will not be Hong Kong, for a number of reasons, mainly apart from Sir David Akers Jones, its not really a place for retired expats.
I know you been here a while actually from what I understand a lot longer than I have, what I can tell you is my parents generation seem to have made much stronger bonds with their peers than my generation did, a lot of that has to do with what it was like pre handover in the 70's to early 90's, if you were around then as an adult, then a lot of went down that could only ever really be understood by the people who were there because it was a crazy heady time.
Hong Kong is not a James Clavell novel anymore like it really did used to be, and that romance, well its long gone now.
My generation who went to school in that time frame, all went off to college somewhere else, and I have said this before on here, if you take my year, the year above me and the year below me at secondary school, that is 360 students in all, to my knowledge I would say the number that have stayed in Hong Kong is less than 10.
Compare that ratio to any other city in the world and there is can be very little debate about the concept I speak of.
The ones that did not come back have seemed to remarkably have no sentiment for the place either, In fact I have met a number of them, and some have told me they are more American than they are a Hong Konger, given my life long affinity for the place I found that shocking.
I digress, I think yours was a time of different values. I feel a lot of sentiment, and the reason I say the things I do is trying to stay in touch with people is something that I go out of my way to do, when its not reciprocated, well what can you do except shrug your shoulders and move on.
The way the city is structured its been a temporary posting for the vast majority and that's the way they see the friends they have made during their time here, regardless of whether you talk about the colonial era or after. Some people have been here a long time and I am not saying its impossible to make enduring friendships, I am just pretty sure the success ratio is a lot lower here than other cities.
There may be exceptions to the rule, but in general in my experience with other people and listening to the tales of all my contemporaries, if you want an enduring friendship in this town, really, get a dog.
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DB,
Actually, I now live in Australia, at the Gold Coast. And, talking of Hong Kong people, I just had the most amazing encounter with a lady in our building. We have been here for less than a year, my wife and I had seen this lady around a few times, she is Chinese. We got to chatting today in the gym (she was just walking through), and it turns out that we know quite a few people from Hong Kong, Her husband worked for the Jockey Club for a while, in the fifties , as a vet, and then in Government.
She is on her own now, she is probably quite a bit younger than her late husband, and she seems to like it here.
As she said, it is a small world. No particular point to this story, other than, there are lots of stories. And it is a small world.
Happy New Year.
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Mate
those years are like scars for a lot of people and the city is an immediate bond when you meet someone who has lived here in a another country regardless of when you lived here. I know a ton of people from those days that made a lot of money, but marriages went down the toilet, alcoholism was forged, and some of the stuff that just went down, well what can I say.
Its always great when you go somewhere else and meet someone you are connected too. I love going to London and going to a Chinese restaurant and saying I come from here, the waiters get such a kick out of it, the last time I did that, I found out that I worked with the daughter of the people that owned the restaurant.
Its a great city, it defines who I am and I think the way I do because of it. I hold a British passport speak with a British accent, went to college in London and am not ethnically Chinese, but whenever someone asks me where abouts in the UK I am from, because they cant quite pin it down, no question, no hesitation, I am from Hong Kong.
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cd
17 yrs ago
DB,
I was born and brought up in the UK, but can count in single figures the amount of people I would call close friends and really try and catch up with when we're back, so how is that different to here. I am much closer to the friends I've made here in the last 11 years than I am with the ones from 'home'. And of those friends we've made that have left here, there's actually a lot that we are still in contact with. I really believe you can make as good a friends here as anywhere.
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I don't really think its too wise comparing Hong Kong and its transient nature to that of the UK which has a lot of permanency about it.
Of course you are closer to your friends here then you are to your friends in the UK, that is perfectly natural you get to see them regularly, that doesnt mean for a second those relationships are going to transcend for all of time which is the point I am making. Most Hong Kong relationships do not end up as enduring ones. some do but the vast majority do not, and if you look at my high school statistics its as telling as anything else I could possibly say.
I have to say, your UK experience was very different from my experience though all my contemporaries who went to college with one another which is a gang of about 30 from halls of residence in the UK remarkably still see each other regularly in London, are at weddings christenings down the pub for dinner etc etc, this is 15 years on, and most know that they will probably be lifelong friends by virtue of the city they live in which does not happen for Hong Kong expats.
Perhaps you are the exception, but the rule is no one generally comes to Hong Kong with their eye on settling down here they know they are going to be a while and most dont even think beyond that. It is a transient city for expats, and in the end that is what defines the relationships that one makes here in general.
If we talk specifically, if you happen to make a good friend along the way that turns into an enduring relationship in Hong Kong, good for you it is not an absolute rule and there are exceptions.
Anyone can make friends in Hong Kong, its one of the easiest things to do, how many of them end up being enduring substantial friendships rather than fair weather friends who you spend time with largely because they are your contemporaries and when that no longer continues to be the case, my measurement is how many remain your friends.
If I were you I would run your hypothesis though when its all said, and if you still say the same thing when you look back at it all, that the people who became close to you way back when are still in touch and the relationship enduring, well then you are a lucky person and good for you.
Its not that kind of place for most of us though mate I assure you that much, but that don't mean I love it any less. and if it is that kind of place for you, then you are a lucky person.
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I grew up here too DB and not sure when/where you went to school but HK is crawling in expat brats who have come back to work, I know a lot from when I was at school and since made friends with others who I didn't know back then... there are quite a lot of us around, not sure how you missed us all...
Also on your point just beacuse people are friends for a long time doesn't make them good friends. I know lots of people from uni who are still friends who to be honest just never made new ones and so are still stuck with the uni friends. You can be great friends with people and it last for years, and you can be average friends and it still lasts for years just because none of you ever left. Length of time is really a useless measure of how good a friendship is.
HK is transient, that's evident, but hey there are more and more expats who are buying flats in HK and here for the medium to long term. And my parents retired here, so did quite a lot of their friends - and many who left and retired elsewhere still wish they never left. It's not the norm, but its possible and people do do it.
HK is by no means perfect, but show me somewhere that is.
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Most of the problems raised, alas, stem from the realities of the cosmopolitan restlessness of our age. It has little to do with HK per se.
Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but the family is the age-old cure. Go back to yours if HK (or any other place) gets too much, or start your own in HK.
Travelling (and living in another culture) often reveals more about ourselves than where we are. It does seem like you would have preferred staying in the UK to moving out, but hey, if you hadn't moved here, you would have been stuck in old blighty wondering what HK life would have been like.
I have found the transience to be exciting. Meeting new people, laughing at them and myself, learning Cantonese. There's no opportunity to be bored. But I'll only feel this way for now, I'm sure. Perhaps someday it's time to settle down either back with family or start a new one. it seems that nomadic life has stopped being attractive to you sooner than for me, that's all.
More immediately, join a pottery class - the warm clay can be very soothing, and the quiet hum of the wheel contrasts with the chaos of HK life. You can also make non-drinking friends. Or take a hike (literally) in Aberdeen, or go sailing. Just get away from the office, streets and shops for a while every month, and you will feel better!
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HKhereIcome,
Not sure that I agree that the problems of living a happy life in HK have "little to do with HK per se". I do not know how long you have lived in HK, but I think most of us have found the heat and humidity of the long summery months a bit trying, as well as the dog-eat-dog working environment, and the crowds, and the experience of being a bit of an oddity amongst the Chineseness of it all.
I spent by far the most stressful years of my life working in HK, just because the place was so tough and demanding. Amusingly enough, in retrospect, the toughest times were handling staff pay performance reviews, trying to balance out the budgetary demands with the high, even unreasonable, staff ideas about their worth, and how much they really deserved ( a lot, lot, more than I could pay them).
Plus, when people leave the place it is often quite precipitately - my next door neighbours, a nice French couple with a couple of kids that I had become quite close to, suddenly found themselves out of work, and, by extension, out of a place to live, with a matter of a couple of weeks notice. Okay, he took legal action against his employer, but the stress involved in the whole business was huge - much worse than it would have been in their hometown, where they at least would have had their own house, friends, and family to support them.
I hope things continue to work out for you. But, I would caution you, there will be far bigger lows in HK than in most other places. Fortunately, the highs can be pretty good, too!!
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Enduring friendships blobby,
they transcend time, and distance, and have nothing to do with how long you have known someone but rather how you feel about your friends. The simple fact of the matter the point I make, is most people are in Hong Kong well they aren't here for ever, and the unfortunate drawback about that, is when you move somewhere else, or your friends do, what happens is you slowly start losing touch, until it gets to a point where you are no longer in touch, and that occurs usually because both people are busy with their own life's.
Ultimately I would say two things in response to your post, Hong Kong's transience is just one of its characteristics, there are many, and as far as I am concerned it is perfect, its what I want from a place to live and that is why I live here, secondly, I would have to beg to differ with the proportion of international school or ESF kids as I was that came back, perhaps at the margin one or two year groups have come back in abundance due to economic conditions which occurred here about 4 years ago, beyond that its a pittance and we are just going to have disagree on that point.
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woods99 - just started my 2nd tour of duty here.
I've lived in NYC, London, Singapore, Detroit (don't ask - big mistake) before, and I can say that I've met people with the same complaints as the poster. Mostly youngish, attractive, unattached singles, I might add. Hence my view that HK isn't the problem - the problem lies with the nomadic culture of well-paid jetset expat labor.
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