In the workplace, when your Hong Kong colleagues start to talk in Cantonese to each other about work, how do you feel?
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Jams
16 yrs ago
I feel offeneded .
They only do it so you dont undearstynd what they are saying or if they wantto bitch about you.
Jams
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Jams - "They only do it so you dont undearstand what they are saying or if they want to bitch about you." That's very presumptutious, not to mention big headed of you to think that you are so interesting that ppl want to talk about you all the time.
sleeplessinhk - It really depends on the circumstances and your post doesn't give much context. I'm fluent in both Cantonese and English, however, I'm actually more comfortable speaking in English, so I think your colleagues are probably talking in Cantonese because it's their mother tongue and they're more comfortable speaking in that language. Unless you were part of the conversation and they suddenly change channels so that you don't understand, there's no need to feel offended. And if you are offended or would like to be included, simply ask them to repeat what they said in English.
I wouldn't do this if you were not part of the conversation to begin with, that would be butting in, regardless of language.
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Sounds like a bout of culture shock to me!
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Or you can take some Cantonese lessons!
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You know I always hear this arguement: why don't you try to learn some Cantonese yourself? Although it will certainly help with the language barrier in the long run, wouldn't it be an easier solution for professionally trained English speakers to speak in English in a professional environment than expecting a poor foreigner to learn a whole new language? That being said, one of my local coworkers did reveal to me once that when they switch to Cantonese, they indeed want to talk about people/things that they don't want the expats to know.
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cara, no offense, but I work in a multinational US owned bank. My office is the Hong Kong branch. A lot of foreigners here and most people speak English. Therefore, the official language is English. Isn't the offcial lanuage of Hong Kong - ENGLISH???
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Most of my co-workers are not saying anything that I would find all that interesting. It is kind of nice to get away from small-talk chatter. That said, I am also learning Cantonese.
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sas
16 yrs ago
Is this your first overseas posting? Perhaps a word with more experienced colleagues might help you to assimilate to working in another country.
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Have worked in the US, where I was a foreigner, but never found people this rude in a professional setting. I think some people are missing the point here. I am talking about a professional environment, in which people are expected to respect each other.
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"Respect" in a Chinese country, is allowing, and expecting, people to speak Chinese.
If you cannot handle this, you are maybe not suited to working in Hong Kong.
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Personally, I think its fine if two people who speak the same language want to discuss something in that language at work. I have grown up in Hong Kong it has always been that way regardless of whether it was at work.
When it becomes rude is when they start insulting you in Cantonese because they are under the assumption you do not understand that you are being slagged off. I know when I am being cussed in Cantonese, I would have to be a fool not to know by now.
Having said that, the only people that have ever really done it are support staff when I have come in and asked for things to be done differently or been dissatisfied and not my colleagues or contemporaries, and in the end, it did not bode them well.
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JJALD
16 yrs ago
They speak it as it is their first language! You wouldn't be offended if you went travelling in Chile and you couldn't understand what they were saying would you?!
It is totally ignorant to expect the Chinese to speak full-time in English just because it suits us!
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Indeed
The notion that people in their own country should speak a second language to suit an expat worker is a little ridiculous and naive.
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asr
16 yrs ago
It has little or nothing to do with Hong Kong or Cantonese (I have seen the same in other countries I've lived in). If you are in a group situation and you choose to use a language that some do not understand (even if not smoothly), then it is simply rude and arrogant.
The issue is not the language itself - it is that some people are choosing to exclude part of the group from the discussion. I have seen the situation in reverse - where a group of English speakers do not make allowances for colleagues who are not fluent. This is just as unreasonable/unprofessional.
At the same time, we must recognise that we are the foreigners (it's not our country) and make an effort to learn the language, the culture, and the norms.
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"It has little or nothing to do with Hong Kong or Cantonese (I have seen the same in other countries I've lived in). If you are in a group situation and you choose to use a language that some do not understand (even if not smoothly), then it is simply rude and arrogant."
Well if you have seen it occur everywhere how can you say it is rude if the behaviour transcends both culture and language.
Whether it is rude is largely dependant on your culture. I can see it being rude, but ultimately I do not view it that way, you happen to see it that way and for you it may be impolite.
The number of times I have gone out to say a work dim sum lunch, where all of a sudden the conversation turns into a Cantonese one because I am the only foreigner is no longer finite. It's not because they deliberately want to exclude me, its because someone prefers using Cantonese because that is their stronger language and that is how the conversation ends up playing out, even with people being polite and trying to explain parts of it to me. That is just natural.
They do not believe it is offensive they are not trying to offend, they are just doing what comes naturally.
If you honestly believe it is rude, well I think you need to ask how many languages you speak and how often you have been in a situation where you have had to be polite.
If anything it is a little arrogant to expect everyone in a group to discard what comes naturally merely to cater to an individual or a very small minority. Lets assume it's not even a minority, why should it be considered rude for two people to converse in their first language as long as they aren't slagging you off or discussing relevant to you.
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I think the context is important. In social settings like cara's, it won't be rude. But if it were a roundtable discussion at work, to speak in a language not understood by all (or if some understand it imperfectly) would be to hinder the work of those not equally in the know. It's just poor team attitude.
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It would be a complete no no.
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Hypothetically, if a bunch of colleagues switched to Cantonese during a group meeting, they are probably just repeating to each other what was discussed in English, so they're all on the same page, rather than slagging anyone off. As I've said, I'm fluent in both languages and have been in meetings with locals and expats. Usually during the meeting or at the end of it, the ones who are not fluent in English may ask what was just discussed and want to have it repeated in Cantonese, just so they know they're on the same page.
I went to school in Australia where there are a lot of Asian students. Sometimes my friends and I would converse in Cantonese and we would be talking about TV or music or whatever, but you always get the ignorant ppl who assume you are slagging them off, just because they don't understand what you're saying. They would start calling us names and imitate us speaking Cantonese and making stupid "chink" noises. Therefore, I find it quite immature and childish for anyone, in a social or professional setting, to automatically assume ppl are talking about them when they don't understand the language spoken.
And if your colleagues are talking about you, it's probably because of your poor attitude towards their use of their own language in their own country!
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I lived in Hong Kong my whole life, If I didn't know enough Cantonese by now to know when i am being cussed or abused I would have to be a fool.
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My whole team in HK are local people most of which speak very little English however in my presence when I am addressing my management teams (who all speak English) all communication is done in English. Given the language barrier, and the cultural business hierarchy in Asia as a whole, I only need say what I need to my top managers and repeated quickly with feedback if they are in fact in the room.
For me, simple gestures of speaking Cantonese if I see my people in the office is just fine for me and them. The same can be said when I address my factory workers who speak Mandarin.
The last language I would learn to speak is Cantonese, the first Mandarin anyhow!
You see evidence of the Cantonese language slipping away everyday as my top managers can speak Mardarin, even my Gen Y's think it to be the trend.
I think if your colleagues really wanted to involve you they would respect that English is your language and speak it in front of you. If it on the other hand is hindering your ability to get your work done effectively I would bring it up with your superior so they could make the call.
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i agree that it is a matter of context.
Many years ago I was at a work lunch as the only non-Cantonese speaker. The client had been referred to me personally but the partner I worked for wanted my colleague to do the work in question. Throughout the lunch she repeatedly initiated conversations in Cantonese - making the not very subtle point that i didn't understand the language although it didn't necessarily follow that I was less able to do the work. I was relatively new to HK at that time and was extremely offended at the obviously rude behaviour but put up with it instead of cutting it off at the start.
My colleague (and friend) also told me that it is considered rude to reply in English if you've been addressed in Cantonese. So, in your case, if it is usually the same person in your work situation who switches to Cantonese, it may well be a (rude) power play as in my situation.
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I don't think we expats are so thin-skinned and self-absorbed to assume that every conversation in Cantonese is necessarily about us.
In a meeting or group discussion at work (and I do emphasize "at work", which is what sleepless asked about), it is not good for a few attendees keep holding a private conversation in Cantonese.
If indeed they are trying to understand the discussion, it looks as if they haven't been able to keep up in English. Come promotion or review time, they will be disadvantaged. If they have understood the discussion, but are just keeping some things private, they look like poor team members trying to exclude the non-Cantonese. Either way, they don't look too good, whether or not the gweilo is offended.
Outside meetings, e.g. at watercoolers or pantries, Cantonese should be expected to rule, and if we demand otherwise we would be arrogant.
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I am amazed at some of the opinions expressed here. Surely it is axiomatic that virtually all Hong Kong Chinese - no matter how proficient in English - are going to prefer to communicate in their own language?
And, of course, lots and lots of very proficient and well-qualified people are not all that proficient in English, through no particular fault of their own, and this puts them at a perceived disadvantaged if English is the boss's language.
There are some advantages in being in Hong Kong, one of the disadvantages is that, unless you can learn to speak Cantonese (and Mandarin as well, preferably), you are gradually going to be left behind in all but a few, exalted, work environments.
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Its not totally axiomatic. I know a couple of locally educated Chinese guys that are either Anglophiles or so proud of their ability to speak perfect English that their entire social group is based on the language. Not that they are spending time with westerners, their friends are locally educated people who also choose to use Cantonese as their first language.
They are how ever the exception to the rule you suggest.
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Actually its very simple i am a gwailo who speaks Cantonese and use it at work (professional environment) with my local colleagues but when i meet another gwailo i always speak in english no matter they may also speak Cantonese
your colleagues are not leaving you out or talking about you at all they are just more comfortable in their local dialect
you will get used to it eventually just relax and never let them know this is an issue for you unless you want resentment all round
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I used to work for a french boss and he once asked me to join a dim sum lunch with him and his bosses from Paris so that somebody could order them right food. They spoke French throughout the lunch and I didn't ask them to speak English. I worked in Shanghai for a year and went out with my junior Shanghaiese colleagues for lunch. They spoke perfect Mandarin and my Mandarin was reasonably good, but they conversed in Shanghaiese all the time. I didn't insist they spoke Mandarin. People just naturally feel more comfortable speaking their mother tongue. I don't see why some English speakers make it a big issue.
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If your french boss and Shanghaiese colleagues were talking about a project with which you were involved, I'd be concerned if I were in your shoes. Again, work is the key context.
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Personally I think it is rude for a foreigner invite a subordinate to lunch in a Chinese city so they can do the ordering and then deliberately not include him in the conversation when there is a common language.
It just does not seem quite the same as two Chinese people in Hong Kong falling into conversation using their mother tongue. Sounds like the boss is a bit of p*ck if you ask me
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"I've lived in HK my whole life. If I didn't know enough Cantonese by now to know when I am being cussed or abused I'd be a fool"
Er...having lived in HK your entire life, I'd've thought you'd be fluent in Cantonese. Ok, being fluent isn't necessary to get by, but having lived here for years one would've thought you'd have a lot more understanding of the language rather than merely knowing if you're being cussed or not. No?
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"having lived in HK your entire life, I'd've thought you'd be fluent in Cantonese. Ok, being fluent isn't necessary to get by, but having lived here for years one would've thought you'd have a lot more understanding of the language rather than merely knowing if you're being cussed or not. No?"
Of course I do, but I am hardly fluent, I can get by. The point I was making was I know when I am being cussed, I don't just assume it.
If you are a product of the colonial system do you really expect that back in the 70's and 80's and early 90's the British Government and its proxy schooling system the ESF would have implemented a system of localisation? One which taught school kids to integrate?
In those days the thinking was replicate the homeland and leave not integrate locally and stay.
You would be mistaken if you think it would have been anyway else. We had 40 minutes a week in year 7 called Chinese Studies and that was it. Beyond that, I have never really needed to use Cantonese more than my level requires, I can get by in Hong Kong get what I need and engage in the most basic bit of banter and have never needed to be completely fluent.
Is it a crime that I didn't bother to become fluent, yes it is, and ironically where I most miss it is when I go away and meet Chinese people in European or American cities, rather than Hong Kong itself. When I say I am from Hong Kong they are usually thrilled (the older generation) and I would like to back it up with fluent Cantonese conversation because they do get such a kick out of a gwailo from Hong Kong, rather than broken and the most basic Cantonese which is the level of my ability.
In my defence as a language its not the easiest to pick up (otherwise I probably would have picked up more than I did naturally), but that's not a very good defence really, nothing worth doing is supposed to be easy.
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matt hackett - "Over the years I have noticed a peculiarity: overseas Chinese who insist on talking English to each other, within earshot of strangers."
That's because again, they're just more comfortable speaking in English, regardless of whether strangers are around. And I wouldn't say we "insist" on it. When I'm with my Asian friends, all of whom are overseas Chinese, we naturally converse in English, occasionally switching to Cantonese when there is something we can't express in English, like a local phrase or whatever. Even when I talk to my parents, who are both Chinese and while their English is good, are not native speakers, I will find myself switching from Cantonese to only English and then catch myself and switch back.
And I don't really think it's a "peculiarity" only for overseas Chinese ppl. I've seen Chinese kids in HK who have been educated in international schools talk exclusively in English, even tho they can all speak and understand Cantonese.
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Let me guess.... and knows someone who has been recently deceased with US$5 million in the bank and needs your help extracting the cash from the country.
Sorry cara I could not resist that one!!
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