Posted by
elly4475
17 yrs ago
II am sorry because this is going to be a long post and I really appreciate any help/ advice from parents with similar experience or tips.
My girl is now 5months. Since newborn she cat naps usually 20-40mins 1-2 times a day and at night usually she will sleep for a stretch of only 5-7 hours. Previously if I rocked her, she will fall asleep or she falls off to sleep after nursing.
When she was 3months old, I tried to establish some sleep training, eg put her in cot semi sleepy but she immediately become very active, kicking, and crying. I tried to let her CIO but she did not stop even after a full 30mins of hysterical crying till NO voice and no indication to stop at all.
That was the only one time, and she got a hoarse/croaky voice with cough the next day with all that crying, that night after the CIO she also woke up 2-3 times at night perhaps feeling insecure?
After that incident, I just continued to rock/hold her to sleep till now.
However, recently for the past 1-2 weeks, when I carry her in the sleeping position, she will immediately start crying/ yelling/ screaming. Hold her upright she stops immediately. Its like she does not want to sleep but she is actually very tired, yawning, rubbing eyes etc.
If I just put her down in her cot wide awake, she shows no sign of sleeping at all, just plays with her hands till bored then she will start to fuss and eventually cry.
I know I definitely need to do something with her sleep routine please do not ask me to go to sleep clinic due to budget constraint.
Should I buy the No cry sleep solution by Elizabeth? or any other good books to refer? I work full time but have taken a few weeks off to prepare to establish some sleep routine because I fear after 6 months it will be too late.
Her usual routine now is :
Naps 2 times a day each 1-2hours
At night: if her last feed is 10pm, gets up at 2am/3am for feed ( after feed- falls asleep easily here) then sleep till 6/7am
If last feed is 12am, able to sleep till 6/7am longest
I know some people advocate last feed at 7pm and not feed till 7am, my girl is exclusively BF so I am not sure it will work? Because she wakes up at night crying and I know she sounds genuinely hungry
I have a few problems too - I work full time so my in law care for her in the afternoon and I only return home with her at 9-10pm earliest since we have dinner over there, so I don’t know how to be able to put her to bed at 7pm as many people suggest?
Also for the naps how many times should she sleep and for how long? Since I am caring for now, I tired to make her sleep before she gets so tried, but she just struggles and kicks!!?
Before she finally sleeps for the long stretch at night, she will be woken up at any slightest sound and will cry very hard as if scared, and no one will be able to pacify her except me. Previously she does not mind my husband carrying and rocking to sleep but in the past 1-2 weeks, even if he carried her she just keep on crying and crying till I take over and she will stop! Is this “stranger anxiety’?? And she will wake up a few times and I need to be near and comfort her, sometimes just patting sometimes to carry then finally she goes off to sleep for that 6-7hours stretch.
Sorry for the long post, but the lack of sleep and struggle of putting her to sleep every day and the part that she only wants me is really taking its toll on me, mentally and physically!
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"However, recently for the past 1-2 weeks, when I carry her in the sleeping position, she will immediately start crying/ yelling/ screaming. Hold her upright she stops immediately. Its like she does not want to sleep but she is actually very tired, yawning, rubbing eyes etc.
If I just put her down in her cot wide awake, she shows no sign of sleeping at all, just plays with her hands till bored then she will start to fuss and eventually cry."
Sounds completely normal. Your child has discovered a neat way to keep you around.
We used "cry it out", that is let child get used to falling asleep on her own. Some people don't agree with this method but it does work. And yes, there are other methods.
- Make sure child is not too tired and not too awake. There's a window of opportunity if you will.
- Have a calm period 30-60 minutes before lights out. Subdued lighting, soft voices, nothing exciting. Perhaps a calm bath.
- When the time comes, put her down, say nite nite and leave the room.
- If she screams, wait 6-8 minutes (use a watch), then go back in, speaking softly and caressing her. Do not pick her up. Do not turn the lights on.
- After 30 seconds or so, go back out.
- If she screams, wait 6-8 minutes. Repeat as needed.
It may take 4-5 iterations or more the first time. And it may take a few days, but eventually she will understand.
The important thing is not to relent. If you start picking her up you are rewarding the crying. This leads to more crying. This is a very important point. Do not reward behavior that you want to eliminate.
"Before she finally sleeps for the long stretch at night, she will be woken up at any slightest sound and will cry very hard as if scared, and no one will be able to pacify her except me."
Also quite normal. She prefers mommy. It is very important for baby to learn to fall asleep by herself. By all means go in to her but do not pick her up. Soothe her, perhaps staying a little, then leave.
You need to get her a bit more used to sounds. Otherwise you'll have to live "in complete silence" for years around bedtime.
"Previously she does not mind my husband carrying and rocking to sleep but in the past 1-2 weeks, even if he carried her she just keep on crying and crying till I take over and she will stop! Is this “stranger anxiety’?"
This is not "stranger anxiety". That doesn't set in until 9 months at the earliest. And she will most probably not be anxious around daddy. She just seems to prefer you for some reason. ;) Perhaps you seem more patient (to her).
"Also for the naps how many times should she sleep and for how long"
That depends on your kid. I would say two naps at this age. Perhaps 60 minutes in the morning and 1½-2½ hours in the afternoon. But it is very variable. Don't be afraid to fiddle a bit with nap times and durations if needed. It has a big impact on bed time.
"At night: if her last feed is 10pm, gets up at 2am/3am for feed ( after feed- falls asleep easily here) then sleep till 6/7am
If last feed is 12am, able to sleep till 6/7am longest
I know some people advocate last feed at 7pm and not feed till 7am, my girl is exclusively BF so I am not sure it will work? Because she wakes up at night crying and I know she sounds genuinely hungry"
Some exclusively breastfed babies sip sip and only have a little each feed. My wife got tired of that and expressed milk. That way baby got a big bottle in the evening around 2030 and could sleep until 0530-0600. It's still breastmilk, just in a different format.
Baby should be able to have last feed at 2030 or so.
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" "Previously she does not mind my husband carrying and rocking to sleep but in the past 1-2 weeks, even if he carried her she just keep on crying and crying till I take over and she will stop! Is this “stranger anxiety’?"
This is not "stranger anxiety". That doesn't set in until 9 months at the earliest. And she will most probably not be anxious around daddy. She just seems to prefer you for some reason. ;) Perhaps you seem more patient (to her)."
I'm not sure if I agree with axptguy38 here on this point. My husband is definately the patient one with our baby, but baby still prefers that I comfort him in the middle of the night. It used to be that my husband can settle him no problem, but in the recent times, he's been showing his preference strongly. Perhaps it is because I stay at home with him... I hope things change, though. It was nice when I can lay back while my husband does the work somtimes... :(
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"I'm not sure if I agree with axptguy38 here on this point. My husband is definately the patient one with our baby, but baby still prefers that I comfort him in the middle of the night."
Well, it's not stranger anxiety. He's not anxious around daddy, he just prefers mommy.
Stranger anxiety would be if baby worries around a person, say, in the middle of the day. My guess is he doesn't do this with daddy.
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does your daughter have a security/ transition object? from about 3 months old, my son would magically fall asleep by himself when i started giving him a little muslin cloth to hold onto. he would rub it on his face and then not long zzzzzZZ. if we removed the cloth he would wake up. as long as he had the cloth, he would even let other people put him down.
as for getting home late from the in-laws, could you not take the dinner with you so that you can get home earlier? i always think baby comes first when it comes to bedtime.
as for bedtime routine, my son always had a bath followed by milk. he understood that it was night sleeping time when we zipped him into a grobag (we don't use it for naps) but only started sleeping through the night once we started him on solids at 6 months. prior to that he was BF.
CIO never worked for us either, i found that the more relaxed i was when carrying the baby (when he was a newborn) the more relaxed he would be. if i was tired and tense and wanted him to sleep early, he would just do the opposite. the more the adults fret, so will the baby.
good luck.
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Hi Elly,
Sorry to hear about your sleep problems. Is baby teething?
Regarding stranger anxiety: I've also heard that it sets in later, like 7 months onwards. As your baby is exclusively BF, she probably prefers a cuddle from you at night because she knows that her milk is nearby!
Your daughter's sleep schedule doesn't seem that bad. According to Gina Ford, babies can only stay awake for about a two-hour stretch before needing a nap from 10 minutes to 2 hours. Gina Ford's routine is usually as follows: (the times are just a guide and don't have to be exact...)
7-7:30am: baby wakes / feeds
8:30-9am - after baby has been playing, baby starts to get drowsy.
9-10am. Baby will have a short nap of 30-45 minutes.
11am - baby feeds.
12-2:30pm. Baby has a long nap - up to two hours.
3pm: baby feeds.
4-5pm: baby will have a short nap of 10-20mins.
Baby sleeps at 7pm. (yeah right!)
9:30pm - 10:30pm - wake baby for her "dream feed". If you can give her a big feed at this time, then you might be lucky that she'll sleep through until the morning.
I started the routine because my daughter would never go to sleep before midnight. After three months, we finally got her in bed between 8-9pm. I'm not strict with the routine, but usually she has a three naps during the day. The only daytime rule I follow is:
- daytime naps should total no more than 2-3 hours.
- as I want her to sleep by 8pm, I make sure she doesn't sleep for a long time during the afternoon nap (and try to wake her by 5pm).
My daughter is very excited at night time, which may be overtiredness etc. When she starts rubbing her eyes (which is her sign of tiredness), I take her to her room and turn the lights off (except for a night light). This really works for me - by reducing the visual stimuli, she eventually calms down. Then I lie next to her on the sofa in her room and she'll either nurse or fall asleep next to me.
At one stage, I started putting her in her cot because I knew I was creating a bad habit of nursing or sleeping next to her... and I could get her to sleep by patting her and giving her a dummy. Then I gave up on this because I enjoy nursing and she's so cuddly... so I will deal with those sleep demons later on (hehehe.)
I thought "The Baby Whisperer" by Tracy Hogg had a lot of good tips.
- "start as you mean to go". Like Axpatguy said, whatever you plan to do, you must stick with it. I don't like CIO, so Xpatguy's method of putting baby in cot and letting her cry for a short time and then picking up to comfort baby and put back in cot etc... is one recommended by Baby Whisperer.
- Tracy Hogg says: try to catch your daughter on her first yawn (or when she rubs her eyes, or whatever else she does when she's starting to get tired). This is to prevent your daughter getting overtired and more difficult to put to sleep.
After her FIRST yawn... take her to her room and calm her down (lights off, or reading, or music...). You can cuddle her until she's really drowsy - meaning that she'll be doing the dozing off then jerking herself awake thing for a few times. Just make sure that when you do put her in her cot, she's not fully asleep.
Lots of people say put baby in cot while they're awake and I also tried this. It was difficult, so I re-read my Gina Ford and Tracey Hogg books and it seemed that you can wait a bit longer before putting your daughter in her cot so that she's more sleepy, but not completely asleep. It sounds like an easier transition compared to just putting her in her cot while she's wide awake or over tired.
Perhaps your baby is having trouble staying awake until you both get home at 10pm so then she's really grumpy by the time you want her to sleep?
Regarding breastfeeding and sleeping through the night:
- my daughter has just turned 6 months. I believe that she's capable of sleeping through the night as she does so sometimes. For me to get her to sleep through the night, I must make sure that I really, really, wake her up at 10:30pm so that she takes enough milk at her "dream feed". The problem with my daughter though is that she snacks when I get home from work, so she's invariably feeding from 7pm until whenever she sleeps (8 or 9pm). And it's difficult to wake her at 10:30pm to drink enough. So for me, I don't mind waking once in the night to feed her. It only takes 15-20 minutes and she's back asleep again.
Once again, Xpatguy has the right solution. Express milk so that you can give your baby a full-bottle feed before you put her to bed! You can get your husband to feed her, and have an early night.
Also... Baby Whisperer book talks about how to distinguish between a baby who wakes at night and is hungry, or a baby who is waking at night because they want a cuddle/playtime. (it's simple really, does the baby drink a lot, or just have a light snack to help herself fall back to sleep)...
Good luck!
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"the more the adults fret, so will the baby. "
So very true. Whichever method you choose, try not to show that you are anxious, worried, sad, irritated or tired. Babies have a sixth sense for that kind of thing. Project confidence, reassurance and tenderness.
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Do you wrap your baby? I have found with both my children , they wanted to be wrapped for every sleep. My first baby wanted to be wrapped until nearly 12 month and my second who is nearly 8 months old now still prefers to be wrapped.
However, I always wrapped them with their arms up so they can move their arms but still feel swaddled. Go to www. karitane.com.au and look in parenting tips for how to wrap.
Your baby may be overtired as well. Many people make the mistake of thinking if they keep a baby awake more during the day, then they will sleep better or in a bigger block. If your baby is overtired, there is less chance of a solid, relaxed sleep. The minute your baby starts making jerky movements, starts being irritable or obviously yawning, then it's time for bed.
My baby also has a cuddle rug he uses to rub along his cheek which lulls him. I also have a cd of baby music.
As for the lying down and then screaming, could your baby have a bit of reflux? My first child had terrible reflux and as a result we had to put the mattress at an angle and also medicate. But that was quite extreme. Perhaps if things don't settle a visit to the gp or paed to rule it out.
As for exclusive breastfeeding, then I would still be getting your baby up at 10.30pm for another feed.
Good Luck, it's a trying time, particularly if you are working as well.
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thanks everyone for the tips and sharing!
Axptguy - I followed the keeping it calm at least 30min-1hr before her sleeping last night and intend to do this faithfully moving on. I admit usually me or hubby or grandparents will be playing with her, or loud TV/music on then suddenly after 5-15mins rest, we try to rock her to sleep, poor baby..of course it not going to work.
Also agree with the part baby "sense" our emotions, and yes especially when I am worried and in a rush, hoping she can quickly sleep, that's when she will definitely not sleep! Relax relax relax...
Slammy-
Your daughter and mine may be "good friends" they seem so similar in sleep pattern!
I am not sure if she's teething, how do you tell? she is salivating more, putting her hands in mouth often, but I don't see anything in her gums and she has no fever, good appetite etc.
I think my bb follows Gina Ford's schedule( well sort of) her sleep pattern is as per described in day, up to 7pm, where she does not sleep till we are back home at 10-11pm where I wll try to make her sleep. Partly to blame are the in laws who keeps playing/talking to her, and believes she will "sleep when she tired"!!! No amount of talking will make them understand bb needs to sleep because she is so alert, smiling etc to them! Plus there is no way to take dinner back because we are chinese and they (inlaws) believe we should eat together as a family. Help!
Anyway, usually I feed her last feed anytime from 10-12am depending on her previous last feed. Then she sleeps for long stretch 6-7hours but never more than 7 hours.
Question- is that the longest an exclusively BF bb can sleep before she gets hungry?
I know she drinks a LOT before this sleep already..my guess is 6oz or more? her usual day feed is 4.5-5.5 oz ( I can hear the glupping down sounds) and I have read somewhere BF bb can only last 6-8 hrs max before they need to feed as BM is so easily digested.
As for husband helping to give EBM via bottle, not possible as these days she refuse the bottle when I am around. It only makes her more agitated/ cry which is something I don't want near bedtimes
And she is really hungry when she wakes up in the middle of night mostly because she really drinks for full 15-20mins then falls right asleep again. Actually I think just waking up once at night at 3-4am to feed is acceptable, I am actually quite used to it..haha Of course if she could sleep through it will be perfect... My concern were more her violent protest before sleep and quick wakings up before the long sleep.
Neebib, yes I do warpped her up with arms/hands free and I realized she does fall asleep more easily like this though ironically she will protest violetly when I wrap her up... I guess at that point she is already upset with everything!
She does not have a toy to help her sleep, but she always need to make sucking action or suck her hands or part of my clothles before sleeping.
Music- does not seem to play a big effect, I played some days before and did not yesterday, she still slept "well" the different is yesterday I gave her more time to wind down and she actually did not cry so bad when I put her down!!
Everyone, I think talking on this Forum gives me a clearer pic what's wrong with her schedule. And is indeed very vey helpful for a busy first time mom like me...
So my contingency plan will be so forth:
1) need to give her more time to settle down, wind down before sleep - at least 30mins with some sort of regular quiet routine
2) Put her in cot semi asleep, not wide awake nor totally asleep
3) Feed her last 10:30 or latest possible
4) Feel relax, claming myself when putting her to her sleep
5) Make sure she has 2-3 naps daytime each 30mins?? ( a little beyond my control here as my inlaw look after her in the day..sigh)
6) Get her to sleep when she is tired not over... again a little challenging with the in laws
which brings me to the next question if I should be getting a domestic helper and a myraid of other qustions :P
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as explained earlier it is not possible not to "not go over" as this may even sour my relationship with hubby etc etc. don't need to add on more problems in this current situation.
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Hi Elly,
I think the key is the winding down time! I just figured this out myself recently too - as I mentioned to you, about taking my baby into her room and turning off the lights.
Something else you might like to try, if you're not already doing it: keep a feed/sleep diary.
I write down what time my daughter went to sleep at night, if she had a midnight feed, the time she woke up, and whether she had a big breakfast. My mum arrives at 8:30am and does the same for baby's nap times and feeding times - and then she will total it. So when I come home, I can see exactly how much baby drank and how long she slept during the day. If she didn't sleep that much, I can anticipate that maybe she'll go to bed earlier. For my mum, she can see that baby woke in the middle of the night and had a feed, and so at 7am wasn't that hungry. So she might want to offer the baby 1 or 2 oz before putting her down for her 9am nap. The "diary" really helps us to anticipate baby's needs.
If your in-laws keep a diary, then you can work out what your daughter's daytime sleep schedule is. Two naps a day of 1 -2 hours seems fine and I wouldn't wake her after 30 minutes, because babies apparently need at least one huge sleep during the day.
When you go to your in-laws house after work, does your baby show signs of tiredness during the night? (my daughter doesn't yawn when she's tired - she just rubs her eyes occasionally, while still appearing very excitable, alert and chatty - so it took us a while to realise she was tired at night).
If she's not tired, then she's probably okay at the in-laws house, and it's just that you need to give her some calm time when you get home before putting her to bed. If she is tired at your in-laws though, then you might have to help her have a little power nap whilst there (or just cuddle her in a dark room and see what happens?).
My baby doesn't have any teeth yet so I don't know anything about teething. She used to dribble A LOT, but now she's stopped. She does enjoy those teething rings, especially the rubber ones that you put in the fridge. You could try offering one of these to your daughter so she can chew on it to help her fall asleep.
"Question- is that the longest an exclusively BF bb can sleep before she gets hungry?"
Two nights ago, my daughter slept from 9pm until 7am. Then last night she woke at 2am, and then at 6am and didn't go back to sleep after that! I know that my daughter is capable of sleeping up to 8 hours a night because she's done it randomly. But like you, I have no problem getting up once in the night to feed my baby. However, once she's getting sustenance from solids, then I will make a concerted effort to phase out the night-time feeds, because I would think that at that stage - they only wake cos they want a warm cuddle...
Good luck with the in-laws! I would persist with using the in-laws and not a helper because you've made it this far already!
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I have crazy Chinese in-laws to who tell me, "she's not tired", and "why don't you give her water yet???" etc etc. But usually when I explain things to them, they can understand. I wonder... how have you explained to your in-laws about helping babies sleep?
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"how have you explained to your in-laws about helping babies sleep?"
My in-laws are never a problem. I let my wife talk to my mother. Ducking responsibility all the way. ;)
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axptguy- thats what MY hubby does, end up I have to go and talk to HIS parents!
Yeah I did the explaining with exclusive BF before why no water before 6 months and why no formula needed etc etc.
Guess its time for a 2nd round of "lecturing" this time about baby sleep...sigh
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Slammy-
(my daughter doesn't yawn when she's tired - she just rubs her eyes occasionally, while still appearing very excitable, alert and chatty - so it took us a while to realise she was tired at night).
Same as my girl, thats why I also did not realise she is actually overtired till recently I have been reading all these forums. Then I realised her tell tale signs, always rubbing eyes, scratching head and generally restless, but still very active alert, smily and chatty! If she starts to yawn, actually that is way over and when I tried to rock her to sleep, thats when the fighting and struggling starts. But usually my in laws only feel that she "needs to sleep" when they see the obvious yawn but thats actually TOO late, I think I will talk to them tonight...
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tonight she fell asleep in in laws place at 10pm, when we reached home around 1020pm she woke up, semi asleep state, put her in her cot which cried so picked her up did the quiet rountine of wiping her hands, changing clothes, dimming lights, talking in soft voice, then put her to cot again and off the lights.
She started to suck her fingers vigorously something she does before going to sleep, with somee noises but not crying and looks like she was going to sleep, but due to some noises, hubby bathing in next room, gradually she looks more alert, kicking and lifting legs, small cries which progress to loud cry!
Then it became cry of rage, since i am not ready to use CIO, so I picked her up and tried to pacify her- problem with my girl is once she is agitated, nothing stops her, carrying, rocking, talking - nothing works
end up i had to rock really quick and talk really loud (practically yell) to stop her.
so my girl is not that simple, when she starts to cry its really difficult to stop her, now she has finally fallen asleep but already woke up twice and I forsee its going to be a long night
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elly, i just thought of something - have you tried to give her a dummy, i know you said she sucks fingers, so it might not work - but worked for one of my kids.. depends on how strongy unti-dummy you feel of course. I was more anti- finger sucking, rather than anti-dummy (with dummy you can at least take it away at some stage).... just a thought...
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Hi Elly,
So it sounds like actually your daughter has no problem falling asleep. What you are describing is a baby who is over-tired and most of the sleep books give advice on how to avoid that stage! Any normal person would also feel grumpy if they've just fallen asleep and were woken up again.
Perhaps you need to gently mention to the in-laws that we should respect the baby and treat her like a normal human being - and when she's tired, she deserves to fall asleep in her own room at a time suitable for her. How would your in-laws feel if they had to stay at someone's house until 1 or 2am (way past their bedtime) before they could return home and go to bed? That is essentially what they are asking their beloved grand-daughter to do.
If you are not ready to approach the in-laws yet about possibly eating at your own house from Mon-Thurs (maybe Friday night dinners at theirs) so that baby can fall asleep at home and not be disturbed again... then I agree with Idsllvn about using a dummy, or a teething ring that she can also suck on to help calm her down.
I think, though, that you've taken this time off work to help your daughter develop good sleeping habits. So you could ask your in-laws for their help and understanding for the next few weeks while you try something new... and that "something new" could be returning home earlier to see if baby's sleep problem is related to her not being allowed to fall asleep at home in her own bed.
There's plenty of opportunity for family gatherings in the future - but right now your little baby needs respect and a little help from her doting parents and in-laws to have a good night's sleep!
Cheers!
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Hi Elly
Agreed with Slammy, you have a very overtired baby, who is so wound up that she sparks of any little noise.
I have a friend who is a midwife and works with mothers and babies (she was my godsend when my 2nd baby was born over here and was very unsettled and I had major feeding and routine issues) helping with routine, feedings, etc. If you would like me to follow it up I am more than happy to pm you with her details.
Agree on the in-laws, sometimes the possibility of offending someone is needed when it comes to the importance of your baby and you also. You cannot be any use to yourself or your baby if you are lacking in sleep and stressed. It's very important and you and the baby are the priority, your husband needs to understand this also and be the support when and if you speak to your in-laws.
Let me know if you want the details. Good Luck.
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is it possible to have the inlaws over to your house for dinner? that would make if possible to put baby to bed on time...try lying down with her in your bed too before you put her in the crib..we do that and our girl will relax and drift off with either me or my wife there...
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"So it sounds like actually your daughter has no problem falling asleep. What you are describing is a baby who is over-tired and most of the sleep books give advice on how to avoid that stage! Any normal person would also feel grumpy if they've just fallen asleep and were woken up again."
Quite.
About the in-laws, perhaps a trip down memory lane to how they their own parents were when they had their children might help. I know my own grandparents had much to criticize when I was a baby. My parents told them very politely that they were doing it their way and that was that.
"She started to suck her fingers vigorously something she does before going to sleep, with somee noises but not crying and looks like she was going to sleep, but due to some noises, hubby bathing in next room, gradually she looks more alert, kicking and lifting legs, small cries which progress to loud cry!"
I cannot tell you how many times my wife has been (rightly) mad at me for making noise at this time. I learned to plan my time very carefully, so that during the critical falling-asleep window I was reading a book or watching TV with headphones. In the end, it gave me more time with my wife so no complaints. I wouldn't dare have a shower then!
One way to "fix" extraneous noises is to play some soft music or "nature sounds" to drown out the "wrong" stuff.
"Then it became cry of rage, since i am not ready to use CIO, so I picked her up and tried to pacify her- problem with my girl is once she is agitated, nothing stops her, carrying, rocking, talking - nothing works
end up i had to rock really quick and talk really loud (practically yell) to stop her."
If you don't want to use CIO, I would still not pick her up. Get a high stool/chair and sit next to the cot. Stroke her gently without speaking (just make soothing noises) but don't leave. The problem with baby falling asleep in your arms is putting her down. I'm convinced babies have electronic pressure and tilt sensors. Once baby seems asleep, keep stroking and cooing for 5 minutes (big clock on the wall helps) and then tiptoe out. Proceed to quietly scold your husband for being noisy. ;)
Also, patience, I have sat on a stool for 30 minutes sometimes. My arm was ready to fall off. But in the end she gave up before me.
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cara- haha I already tried that, problem is baby just kept yelling at top her voice and in the end I still had to take over and she's lost her voice the next day because of that:(
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wow you have a handful, I marvel mummies with more than one! I know its ok if she lose her voice but just feel so bad when i hear her trying "talk" and its comes out as a croak!
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"not to worry if she loses her voice... it's not like she has to give a lecture the next day, right? "
In this vein, some babies will scream so hard they forget to breathe and faint. This is still considered "normal" behavior.
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axptguy38, how did you get so smart?!!!
I agree with whatever people have said about setting rules and sticking to them. Babies are master manipulators and parents (mothers especially I feel) are their biggest victims! Babies develop their insistent howl as a survival mechanism to get what they need in the beginning but later on modify it to get what they want!
You want to be sure that you're reasuring her that you are there but not rewarding her crying by picking her up. Soon enough she'll learn that skreeching has lost its power and will learn that it's more pleasant to sleep.
Good luck!
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"axptguy38, how did you get so smart?!!!"
:) I don't know about smart. I read a lot. But the most important thing, I think, is to draw conclusions from observation, prior experience and trusted sources, trying not to let pre-conceptions not based in fact cloud your judgment.
Babies do act rationally from their own point of view. We just don't see it a lot of the time. Applying a little logic is worth a hundred old wives tales. And there are few areas more fraught with myths than child rearing.
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Z
17 yrs ago
My daughter went through a very similar phase [one 5 hour stretch at night, the rest in 20 min increments randomly throughout the day] at about 6 mo. I bought ALL the books, and while you have gotten some really terrific advice here so far, let me add a couple of things--
1. The average 5-6mo baby sleeps 14-15 hours out of every 24, usually in 3 chunks: 1-2 hour morning nap; 2-3 hour afternoon nap and about 9 hours at night. There is a lot of variability, but at this stage, your baby probably needs at least 12 hours out of every 24.
2. The average baby wakes up at 7am, no matter what time they go to sleep.
3. Eye rubbing is actually a fairly late tiredness sign. If you are paying close attention about 10-20 mins before the eye rubbing is the zoned out stare. This is generally the easiest time to put the baby to sleep -- provided that you can get her into a relatively cool, quiet, dark place immediately. The problem [with in-laws, helpers, husbands -- anyone who can pass the overtired cranky baby off to the lady with the milky boobs at midnight and go off to sleep] is that at that point, people want to finish whatever they were doing, wipe the baby's face, change the baby's diaper and wet clothes, etc. etc. etc for 20-30 mins, at which point baby is in a red rage from frustration. This is actually particularly true of very good natured babies, as they try and try and try to please their beloved adults.
4. The 30 min catnap 1-2 hours before bedtime can do wonders for a chronically overtired baby.
5. The way that baby falls asleep for the night absolutely sets the stage for whether or not she can put herself back to sleep during the night. My son is also 5 mo, and is an extreme example of this. He gets into his grobag about 6pm, before I feed him; he eats for about 20 mins, and then I put him into his bed, hand him his cat, say goodnight and close the door. He then proceeds to sleep until somewhere between 6-8am, waking up once for a feed. However, if I am 10 mins late getting to him, he falls asleep while I am feeding him, and then wakes up every 2 hours all night long and screams until he gets to nurse -- but falls back asleep within 1 min of nursing.
Would it be possible for your inlaws to come over to your house in the afternoons to help out with the baby? This way, they can continue to do everything that they are doing, but the baby can go to sleep in her own bed at a decent hour. Plus, you will only need to babyproof one house when she gets mobile [you are doing them and their nice things a favor in the long run!]. It is so much easier for adults to travel at 10pm than it is for children.
Oh, and I concur about axptguy38 being so smart. If only he could raise my kids and send them back when they graduate from college...
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An update -
I have started to introduce a dummy and gave her at least 30mins wind down time. She still cry and protest a little just before closing her eyes when I rock her to sleep. A major improvement from the cries of rage before!
I then put her down to cot, usually she struggles a little, but no cry, I pat her chest and she sleeps.
But the above only works with me, with my hubby even with dummy and wind down time, she just crys and crys...
After she starts sleeping, she may wake up once or twice and if I go in and pat her, usually she fells back asleep, but it has to be me. Again if hubby pats her, she becomes fully awake and howls. I wonder why??
Question, for the past 2nights, she sleeps from 8pm+ so I wake her up for dream feed at 11pm+( she is asleep state ) and she drinks a lot( so I thought) but she still wakes up at 3am, and apparently is hungry as she also drank a lot for 15-20mins and after fell back asleep and wake up again at 7am+.
Is my dreamfeed time wrong? or should I fully wake her up to drink and make her sleep again? I am afraid if I rouse her fully its hard to make her sleep again or she may cry because she is disturbed from deep sleep.
Or should I just forget about the dream feed and let her wake up naturally?
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"After she starts sleeping, she may wake up once or twice and if I go in and pat her, usually she fells back asleep, but it has to be me. Again if hubby pats her, she becomes fully awake and howls. I wonder why??"
I don't know you and I don't know your husband so I can't tell. But my answer based on stereotypes is that husbands tend to be less patient with fussy babies. We see it as "how long do I have to do this before I can go back to sleep/watch TV/etc". Babies can sense this in the body language. Again, I don't know your husband so it could be something else.
"Question, for the past 2nights, she sleeps from 8pm+ so I wake her up for dream feed at 11pm+( she is asleep state ) and she drinks a lot( so I thought) but she still wakes up at 3am, and apparently is hungry as she also drank a lot for 15-20mins and after fell back asleep and wake up again at 7am+."
As I mentioned, pumping and giving her a good big feed was the only solution for us. That way we were sure she drank a lot.
Then again, there's nothing inherently wrong with a bit of a night time feed. Except of course that it interrupts everyone's sleep.
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Hi Elly,
My son was on Gina Ford routine and back then when he was around your daughter's age, he was able to sleep from 7-7, with a dream feed at around 1030. He was also exclusively breastfed. I agree with all the above postings about putting baby to bed early and before she gets overtired. And also to well time her day time naps to achieve a better quality, longer stretch of sleep at night.
You mentioned that you tried offering a dreamfeed at 11pm+ but she still woke up at 3 hungry for milk. Yes a bigger bottle of expressed milk for the last feed may help her last longer in the night. But for my son's case, he never drank more than 6oz per feed. It didn't seem to me he needs to drink more in the last feed in order to sleep longer either (of course every baby differs). So I'm thinking that may be sthg to do with whether your baby has obtained enough calories during the day time. I remember Gina Ford mentioned that every baby requires a certain number of calories for a day, and if her requirement is fulfilled by timing her meals at the right time during the day, she naturally sleeps through the night without needing a night time feed. I think that works for my boy.
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Elly - apparently all posts from yesterday disappeared not sure if you had a chance to read them.. mine was along the lines of Nicher's one. will sum it up just in case you did not get it - might be habit - ours did it. As long as your baby gets enough during the day - start breaking the habit - give her a bit of water at 3 am instead of milk - she will evenually work out that there is no point in waking up... Tooks us a month or so but we did get there in the end... Good luck
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Dear all -
Last night I woke her up at 12am for a dream feed, she's fully awake and drank a lot I am sure this time, but she promptly still wakes up at 4am for another feed!
And readily drank for full15-20mins before stopping. I wonder if she is on a growth spurt? she is 5mths 2 wks now and my in law also said she is drinking more in the day.
I am just thinking if I give her water at night, she is not going to feel full and continue crying and that also means no sleep for me.
Like usually in the 3-4am feed I am trying to feed less, but if she does not feed full enough she will cry and also refuse to sleep!
Any tips? give water and hope she feels full? or just rock her till she finally sleeps..?( may take 30mins or more is my guess...)
Thanks!
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Z
17 yrs ago
Maybe take a step backwards and ask yourself:
Is her nighttime sleep getting better or worse or staying the same? Babies change sooo quickly at this age that if things are getting better naturally [esp. once she is eating enough and getting enough rest during the day], just let her sort it out on her own if you are getting enough rest even with her 3-4am feed.
My daughter was one of those devil babies re sleep, but my son is one of those angel babies. He's also about the same age as your daughter, and I find that he's got such a strong biological clock that anything I do to manipulate him disrupts his normal happy life. So, even though he's 8.8kg, and really should be able to last more than 3 hours between daytime feeds, and really should be able to sleep longer than 45 mins during the day, I just leave him be. The tradeoff with him is that he goes to sleep by himself nearly every night and sleeps somewhere between 12-14 hours, generally waking up once to feed [and gulps it down in 15 mins, so it isn't all that disruptive to my own sleep].
Oh, and one last tip if you are going to push through with getting her to sleep through the night: it is much much more effective to have Daddy rock her back to sleep in the middle of the night, as Daddy doesn't smell like a dairy. Provided, of course, that Daddy can handle the fact that baby will cry for a bit, it should only take 3-4 nights to convince her that the dairy is closed at night.
Good luck!
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Hi Elly,
My post from yesterday has also disappeared!
OK, I try to repeat what I said from memory...
You asked about the dreamfeed time. This is entirely your choosing. Sometimes I do 9:30ish, because baby woke by herself so I fed her. Sometimes, I do 11pm because I happen to be staying up a bit later myself.
Nicher - you have a dream baby! My babe is also exclusively breastfed, but she only needs around 11 hours sleep a night and at 6 months old, is still occasionally waking in the night for a feed. I also loosely follow the Gina Ford routine.
Elly, one very important thing I read in the GF book about how to tell if the baby DOESN'T need the early morning feed... if the baby wakes at 7 am, or whenever they get up, and they are not interested in breakfast, then that means they don't need the night time feed.
This is what I can see with my baby. Since 5 months, she wakes anywhere from 1am to 5am (the time is always different) and feeds for up to 20 minutes. Sometimes she sleeps all the way through until morning. When she has a night time feed, she is not hungry when she wakes in the morning. So I know she is capable of sleeping through the night. Of course, even at six months of age and not yet on solids, she still sometimes wakes in the night and I still feed her.
So ask yourself - when your daughter wakes in the morning, is she very hungry for breakfast? If yes, then I would probably stick with the night time feed at the moment.
If she's not that hungry for breakfast then the nighttime waking is probably habit and not hunger. So... you could try shortening the night time feed if you can manage to pull her off your breast without fussing... and thereby shortening the time until eventually you phase out the feeding.
How many ounces does she drink when you're at work?
I wouldn't give her water - but that's just me. I think breast milk is best!
Hope things are improving!
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breast milk is best but that is not the purpose of giving water. you give water to get her to stop waking up at 3-4am - i believe it is quite a common technique, Slammy - and Gina Ford has it in her book as well... just to send a message to the baby that not much point waking up at 3-4 am as all she gets is water... it is a habit and needs to be broken or it will go for months and months and months. But having said that - as i mentioned before - ONLY if you are sure the baby is getting enough during the day..
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That's true. Gina Ford also suggests giving diluted juice in the afternoon and I would never follow that advice!
I'm a bit anti-anything except breast milk at the moment. I think when the time comes to wean baby off the night-time feeds, I might try making someone else go in at night time and offering teeny amounts of milk and phasing that out to a dummy... and then eventually nothing.
Incidently, one of our friends said they were tired of their son waking up at night time so they asked the helper to go in and feed him when he woke up. By the third night, he didn't wake up anymore - guess he didn't really like the helper. hahahah.
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"That's true. Gina Ford also suggests giving diluted juice in the afternoon and I would never follow that advice!"
I agree that is nuts. Water works fine if you need to give anything, but breast milk should do it.
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thats the whole point axptguy! no breast milk wont do it - the poor woman is trying to stop the 3 am waking up - so certainly no breast milk at that time! we are gettting side-tracked from the issue here - water or nothing to stop the baby from waking up!
as for dilluted juice - no, i would not do it either - my twins are 2.5 yrs old and I give them dilluted juice probably once a week - with 1 part juice to something like 2-3 parts water... but water is different story - how can it be bad!!!?
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"thats the whole point axptguy! no breast milk wont do it - the poor woman is trying to stop the 3 am waking up - so certainly no breast milk at that time! we are gettting side-tracked from the issue here - water or nothing to stop the baby from waking up!"
I disagree. The point is not breastmilk or not. The point is, I think, that baby is hungry in the middle of the night. The solution we used was to pump and give a bottle of breastmilk instead of the breast. That way baby was less cozy and warm when drinking and drank more instead of cuddling in. So she was nice and full longer.
Your results may of course vary. All children are different.
"but water is different story - how can it be bad!!!?"
I think that water is bad if it displaces breastmilk, which it might if given too early (before 5 months?). But I am not an expert.
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