Posted by
Anonymous
17 yrs ago
Friends come and go in Hong Kong so I am often meeting people who at least initially appear to be progressive, interesting and worth investing some time in.
But on occasion, these new "friends" overtly or subtly expose themselves as being intolerant racists. And this is usually not a one off comment with these people, it crops up time and time again so that there can be no ambiguity in their position.
My question is if you encounter this what do you do?
Do you ignore the comments, try to avoid controversial discussions and latch onto the more positive aspects of the persons character?
Do you risk confrontation and try to educate them that their opinions on racism are abhorrent, unacceptable and wrong?
Or do you write them off as friends in disgust and move on?
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quite agree with johnnie. a lot of people tend to say things about chinese people or asian people in general, without allowing for the fact that not everybody is the same within one country/race/city. "Chinese people are like this" "Chinese people do that" "the Chinese" "They" "These people", nanana. China is HUGE, do they realise? Northen Chinese, Southern Chinese, Muslim CHinese, they're all different!
Also - and I have experienced this many times- people may come to a foreign country without any hostility but then start criticising the way things are done here because they can't yet see that different doesnt mean worse. I have soooo many times been annoyed by people (from my country or another) saying things like: back home, we do this, back home, doctors will do it like that, back home, working habits are like this, back home, we wouldn't accept this or that, back home, this would be illegal... Always implying that "back home" is better.
This is simply a superiority complex, and quite often, I find out that they have never left their country before, so they can't really be tolerant about differences, they've never had a comparison for they way things are "back home". This is no excuse of course, but it explains their judgmental attitude.
Eventually, they learn to appreciate that different doesn't mean wrong, and even admit that some aspects of asia are "better", or they get used to it and stop comparing, or indeed they become so critical that I tend to think "go home, then!", and yes, I stop seeing them coz i cant stand that attitude anymore.
The good thing is they eventually do go back home.
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JJALD
17 yrs ago
It depends in what context it was said, and often if you do not know a person very well things can be misinterpreted.
I said something at a gathering over the weekend which I can see was possibly slightly offensive, but it was a quick comment, made without thinking. I knew some of the people there extremely well, but some of the guests were people I had not met before. My good friends who know me will have known that I did not mean it, am not racist and moved on, however this post made me think...
But equally the people who I did not know so well would have no idea that I have many friends of different colours / religions / sexual orientation, have a Muslim sister-in-law etc.
So, I think sometimes take initial impressions with a pinch of salt. If they repeatedly offend you then time to move on of course, but you may just find they are worth investing time in :-)
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I agree that there tends to be more racism from people who are new to Asia, but the people I am referring to are more often than not people who have lived in Hong Kong for over 5 years, many of them over 10 years. Most of them are highly educated people including lawyers and finance people who you would think have no excuses for such behaviour.
One lawyer recently confided in me that "of course racism cannot be tolerated in the working classes because they'd be at the throats of minorities, but we elites can openly discuss the fact that certain races are inferior because we are above thuggish racist attacks".
My response was that I do not think that any race is inferior, I do think individuals are inferior or superior to other individuals, and that I believe that racism is more dangerous when embraced by elites because it filters through an entire society creating intolerance and an environment that spawns scum like Adolph Hitler.
He didn't have much to say in rebuttal, but I am sure he still maintains his racist views.
This is an extreme example of what I have experienced but I think only because this person was willing to be more honest about their opinions. Most others would never say this but often they let slip which is a good indication of where they stand.
My question again, what do you do about these people?
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No it did not occur to me because this is not the first time I have picked up on "white supremist" inclinations from this person. And even they hadnt, anyone who thinks it is amusing to bait someone with such comments is pathetic and undeserving of friendship.
But I dont want to focus on this one incident because its only one of so many, my question is what do you do when you encounter these attitudes?
Do you ignore the comments, try to avoid controversial discussions and latch onto the more positive aspects of the persons character?
Do you risk confrontation and try to educate them that their opinions on racism are abhorrent, unacceptable and wrong?
Or do you write them off as friends in disgust and move on?
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I am from a country where many people hold racist views. It's quite disgusting to me to see it, and one of the few things that will cause me to confront someone. I will actually take the time out of my day to make someone feel particularly small, if I find they are racist.
If I find that a new acquaintance is racist, then I'll give them a hard time, and tell them where to go. But I've also had to work along side racist ****s for up to 12 hours at a time. I deal with them in exactly the same way, even if it makes for an uncomfortable working environment.
One thing to think about, is whether you differentiate between observation/venting and racism. Where do you draw the line?
The Chinese words for other ethnic groups translate to terms like White Ghost and Black Devil. I personally find these terms disgusting and offensive, but most of the time, the terms aren't used with any malice. "It's just what they are." Who decides what's offensive here?
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"My question again, what do you do about these people?"
Tell them that you don't agree. If they lay off and don't say or do anything more, do nothing. If they keep talking, perhaps not go to the next gathering with them.
The other strategy (which I enjoy) is to hit them with a nice broadside of screwups that the West has managed in the area under discussion, and watch them try to wriggle out of it. Be careful because this can backfire. Either they are more erudite/well-educated/smarter than you or they can walk off in a huff.
There are differences, certainly. All people are not equal. I think it is all right to say things like "locals in general think a like this compared to Westerners", so long as the intent is not to simply pass the locals off as inferior. I am quite happy to diss my own home country and my compatriots btw! What is not all right is to imply that local people and culture are inferior from some sort of philosophical viewpoint.
Any place has it's pros and cons. If you are really unhappy living somewhere you should move or shut the heck up.
"One lawyer recently confided in me that "of course racism cannot be tolerated in the working classes because they'd be at the throats of minorities, but we elites can openly discuss the fact that certain races are inferior because we are above thuggish racist attacks"."
What sanctimonious bullc***. Time to remove the stick out of that guy's behind. But it may well be lodged too firmly.
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"One lawyer recently confided in me that "of course racism cannot be tolerated in the working classes because they'd be at the throats of minorities, but we elites can openly discuss the fact that certain races are inferior because we are above thuggish racist attacks"...
I would have been interested to hear his thinking behind this and asked for an expansion... as in why he felt certain races were inferior and what was his opinion in what should be done... He might have responded with a 'keep them in their place/they will never amount to anything' or 'well part time I am working as a human rights lawyer in order to help educate said working classes...'
I think a knee jerk reaction in a way proves his point... Racism should and needs to be discussed ihomo... as only through awareness will it be eradicated...
Amerika proves how attitudes can change in a relatively short time... and in a way your mentioning Hilter as a response in a way could be construed as legitimizing his point.
However I do think he sounded like a stuck up tosser but as axptguy stated it is quite amusing to play with these folks...
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No offense flashback but sweeping possibly offensive comments under the proverbial rug will not help...
Gay is a lovely word that I love to use in its original sense in a modern day environment... thus if someone referred to someone as a meatball or cigarette butt I would question why... are light happy folk meatballs?...
Again as axpat said if you can play the game... I am horribly un-PC for a reason and that reason is awareness... call someone from Australia a convict etc etc... sooner or later folks will get it but sometimes not if you scream 'nazi' at them...
Just my opinion...
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For me, I will not tolerate stupidity of any race! So does this make me a racist? I would expect the same from people I surround myself with!
I think you need to understand where the perceived 'racist' comment originates from?
My advice, as I have seen the same in HK is step back, remember the content of the discussion as you might find the comment lies in the stupidity, lack of common sense and not the race!
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Grizabella, I have tried to use a similar tact but it usually doesn't work. As you can see from the comments about how its ok for elites to discuss racism, his position is well thought through and unlikely to be changed by pointing out the irrationality of his beliefs
And I have noticed the same thing as you, that most people like this stick to their "own kind". The person described above has much contact with different races but doesnt differentiate in his disdain for his others ie. he generally thinks people who are not white, even if they are of another race but born and educated in his or some other western country are generally not up to snuff. At least that is what gather from inferences.
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Other than the unacceptable comments of your lawyer friend can you give other examples of racism you've come across? Are you confusing racism with people simply complaining about popular culture in Hong Kong (which is human nature)?
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I posted a quotation from the latest SPIKE column on Asiaxpat. However it has been deleted by the Ed. The purpose was to illistrate the comments above from other posts above with respect to elitist views.
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Ed
17 yrs ago
The fact that the Spike column pokes fun at the HK Games is in no way racist. You are missing the point of the column - HK, Macau, Guam etc... are not exactly sporting hot beds and I challenge anyone to name one athlete participating in the games (without googling...).
The Lamest Sporting Show on Earth http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/articles/signature-columns/slower-lower-weaker:-the-lamest-sporting-show-on-earth/
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The article implies that only those nations of sporting elites should bother holding games. What if the people of Guam take offense at all being labelled "crap" at sport and then decide to ban Spike from entering? Similar to the what the Phillipines did in response to a certain Chinese columnist's satirical column.
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Ed
17 yrs ago
I disagree.
There is an ice hockey league in Hong Kong that I played in for years. Relative to the NHL it is absolutely crap - actually I will go further - compared to the NHL it is a joke.
Is that racist?
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The Hockey League statement is not racist as it is not targetted and does not identify a specific race of peoples. The local hockey league could be a multi-cultural collection of people (or not) it is irrelevant. I'm sure most people would agree that the quality of the local football scene in HK is crap compared to UEFA etc. However if one were to say "the Chinese are crap at football" then that is racist and the Chinese would be up in arms. There are excellent Chinese players in the UK premier league. Therefore SPIKE saying Guam... is crap and implying that there should be no games is racist and elitist.
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I don't think this is racism, this is culturalism
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Ed
17 yrs ago
The Games in HK and the article is not targeting a specific country or race (The event brings together athletes you've never heard of from places that are as crap at sport as Guam, Macau, and, of course, hosts Hong Kong)
The Games are attended by athletes from many countries and most if not all of them are not world class.
Likewise the HK hockey league participants are from many countries most of whom are not world class.
There is no mention of race in either circumstance and in fact the athletes in both are of no specific race or country.
The one thing they share is that they are not world class - call them crap, call them amateur, call them terrible - that does not infer racism - they are simply not world class athletes - nothing less nothing more.
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Brian - both statement 1 and 2 are fine. They do not have any word which could cause the subjects to take offence being deemed negative etc.
Ed - "places that are crap at sport as..." that tars everyone with the same brush with the negative connotations of "crap".
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regarding the OP: when i read this, I thought you were talking about Chinese friends ! I encounter far more racism from the Chinese than i do from Westerners here ! One Chinese "friend" let it slip one day that I am now "dirty" because i married a woman from South East Asia !! Anyway, my answer is just cut off people like this because you will never educate them or change their opinion.
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Or you can just have fun with race: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8lEbiTJoMM&feature=related
Side question: I wonder if a white comedian could get away with that routine?
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Demby
17 yrs ago
Do "white people" as you describe them worry about racism ?
I never thought about it until reading this thread, and really feel sorry for those that are so semantically sensitive..
In Hong Kong, of all the years that I have lived here, the most racist people I have found, are those that use the race card most of all, when it suits them....I won't mention who, as it might incite another pointless protest.
Racism is a state of mind, and it's up to you how you choose to interpret the many slants of the languages that we all speak, and being mindful culturally, that we all have variations in how we use context. Americans and Commonwealth English speakers suffer this communication problem a lot, especially when the use of slang vernacular, you can see the tension on their face, as if one was saying something untoward about them, when in actual fact, it was not the case... The joys of being a foreigner, working and socializing with the UN of race relations lol.
I am quiet sure if majority of you could understand Cantonese, like I can, then I can understand why you might be angry and screaming RACIST lol because it is rife among the HK Chinese, with their local descriptive terms for every creed under the sun...That's how Chinese are, a spade is a spade to them, they describe honestly what they see, and if you think we all look the same, then boy, you need to look in the mirror... If you have a very large nose, HK Chinese will nick name you Big Nose add surname here........ That's just how they are
My suggestion, is to grow a back bone, and be productive people, and PROVE you are part of the HK community, instead of being a separatist group, and i am sorry to say, we might all be members of varying minority races, I wouldn't say that we all mesh in a perfect world of multi-cultural harmony either. I get along fine with the local HK Chinese. I live in a local Chinese area of HK not located on a HK Island enclave, speak the local tongue, and married into a HK Chinese family.. Never suffered any racism in the decade that I have lived here. Why not ? I don't think about it, as a problem, I also respect other peoples opinion, rightfully or wrongly, you won't change traditional cultural values or barriers, and the people who shout racist, I have their own cultural discrimination's, which is rather ironic.
Anyway, life is about what you bring to the table, don't worry about what people say, be happy, work harder, learn how to be satisfied, make some cash, travel as often as you can and enjoy life as a result.
Anything more than that you're just being demanding lol
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Sometimes the point of being racist to some is just a state of mind as mentioned above. Some may not find what they say offensive but others may take offense in the context.
For me, I've had numerous encounters, especially being mixed race. An awkward situation was this time I was at a party and this group of girls was disparaging a group of people who were a different race, not thinking that I am mixed. They thought I was the same race as them (Them being the ones who were making rude remarks - reason why I'm not mentioning ethnicity is I don't want the backlash)
Long story short, I think racism exists everywhere and everyone is subject to it at some point. Sad to say some more than others. I remember i used to balk everytime I saw that commercial on TV that portrays HK as a "world city". In reality, it's not. It may be culturally diverse but it doesn't necessarily mean that discrimination is not abundant.
So, back to what I was saying -
I've had many encounters as such and I like to believe in the old saying that "birds of the same feather flock together". There are things that I can let go of, and there are some things that I have strong opinions of. I would steer clear of people who are narrow minded and critical. I don't want to associate myself with such types of individuals.
I can be nice, but I would not really socialize with them unless it is a work engagement in which there obviously isn't much choice there.
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