Posted by
Darin15
16 yrs ago
I was in Wanchai a few weeks back and was attacked by 2 guys getting into a cab - I defended myself and now I am being charged.. I need advise and what to do or what happens in this case - New to Hong Kong... Please give feedback..
Thanks -
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That case has been appealed but the assailant has left HKG. Someone I know got charged with assaulting a police offficer and got 3 months in jail, which was suspended. My advice is to go and see a lawyer immediately. This is a very serious matter.
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Just curious, was it an all out brawl or just some pushing and shoving? Who got the worse of it? If it were just a fight between two "drunk" westerner (even if no one was drunk at the time) the police may just let it go and not pursue the matter. If a local was involved with a westerner, then tey may do more.
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I thought he'd said that he's being charged, so it does not appear as if the police want to let it go.
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The police say the charge is assault - I have not given my statement yet - I do that next week. I do not know why they did not take it then - It was all westerners - One guy went to the hospital - They wanted to take me as well, but I refused. I am thinking I will wait to talk to a lawyer until after I give my statement and see what they have to say. I don't know if they charged the both of them or not - Again -I was the victim and I am starting to think the reason they charged me is because I refused to go to the hospital... It is the weirdest thing - In my short time here -I have seen way worse in Wanchai and no one goes to jail..
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Most you will get is a fine if common assault. Happens all the time in Wanchai, particularly if first offence. You may want to see a lawyer BEFORE giving a statement since you are not obliged to give one - right to remain silent.
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gunk
16 yrs ago
I suspect that they have bailed you out for a cool-off period. When you return they will ask both parties if they want to pursue - if you say no then nothing else will happen. If the police charged everyone involved in a bit of pushing and shoving the courts would be inundated with cases.
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a young female friend of mine was assaulted by a guy in Lan Kwai Fong on New Years Eve. Her nose was broken, her friend followed the guy and alerted the police who were standing close by. The police officers spoke in poor english, but my friend was clear about the fact the guy had hit her on purpose and then tried as fast as possible to get away through the crowds.
When it came to court he had a QC and a very different story to what happened on the night. The police officer claimed my friend had said it 'might' be an accident, which was blatantly wrong and they said so there and then, but the guy was aquitted.
There are several lessons here. One with the right QC you can get off anything. Two whatever you say to the police you can change at a later date. If any of the parties speack cantonese they have a distinct advantage.
In many other instances that I know of "witnesses" have been produced from nowhere. So its not as straight forward as you think and good legal advice is called for, if only to show the Police that you are taking this seriously and willing to throw money at it to defend yourself.
Generally and sadly with the Police, it seems to be the line of least resistance that gets the blame.
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If you are a westerner, in addition to finding a lawyer, I would also contact your Consulate General. Speak with an officer in their consular section for advice.
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My advice: stay out of Wanchai. It's full of trouble, from spiked drinks to aggressive individuals and diseased hookers.
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Demolay, that may be good advice for the future, and I certainly agree with you, but for the time being it's not much help telling him to stay out of Wan Chai
Chatterbox, whilst I agree with some of the things you said, it's definitely not right that whatever you say to the police you can change later. You cannot.
It's very different being a defendant in court charged with something to, say, someone who is the so-called victim.
I suggest that Darin goes to see a lawyer asap. Forget the consulate general. At the end of the day they have no jurisdiction and can't countermand the police. Go straight to a lawyer and have him come with you when you make your statement. He will advise you on which questions you can answer and which questions you can refuse to answer.
If you then do get charges, your lawyer can perhaps write to the Department of Justice on your behalf and see if they are willing not to proceed or maybe do a plea bargain.
Don't forget, if you are found guilty of assault, even if you're not imprisoned but are just fined, you will have a criminal conviction and it may not be that easy for you to get your visa renewed here in HKG. It willalso be hard for you when you travel to certain countries (including the US) as you will have to declare whether you have any criminal conviction on the visa forms. It's just a hassle that you don't need.
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My experience with dealing with cops in HK is that when you are western and they are locals, its like being in a comedy sketch. They are pretty useless most of the time. I recall a time at Mes Amis when a Colombian guy was being aggresive at closing time and refused to leave, while being escorted out he picked up a fork off one of the tables that was being setup for the lunch trade and threatened people with it and tried to stab one of the doorman. The police were called and informed of the scenario because the guy was waiting outside for everyone, they sent one weedy little policeman who could not handle it and just let the guy go, he then came at people again and the police sent a wagon for him this time but upon realising they could not communicate with him let him go again and he came back looking to continue fighting.
I really don't know how they would handle a really difficult situation, based on hearing stories about the big fight in wan chai between the rugby players it took an hour to bring it under control.
On another note I was attacked in Wan Chai one night whilst watching a football match and I hit the bloke that grabbed me, he then picked up a chair and hit my friend with it instead of me, resulting in a wounding with intent charge, he was locked up for 3 days and then deported because he was on a visitor visa. Despite the fact I told the police that I had hit the guy first, they proceeded to arrest my friend who was hit with the chair, he ended up spending the night in the police station with him and only got out in the morning when the agressor told the police he was not the one that hit him. When I was later interviewed the police already had a statement ready for me and just told me to read and sign it, it never mentioned me hitting him at all, so I was not going to admit then that I threw the first punch and open up a can of worms. I have been here 11 years and that was the first and only time I have needed to defend myself from someone
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Thank you for the comments - Can anyone suggest a good lawyer for this matter - I asked the police if I needed one there and they said no, but if it is to my best interest, I would like one. I guess I am still nervous, because I have heard so many different responses. I am being transferred soon to most likely mainland China or back to the states - I do not want this to affect anything.. Thanks
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Darin, I've sent you an email.
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Darin, get a lawyer, get some evidence...get some witnesses..it will be your word against theirs...and if 1 guy went to hospital that night, there wld be evidence in HIS favour to say he was injured..of cors u didnt do to hospital or sought treatment...so the circumstantial evidence which they will be pointing to is that you started the fight..and only THEY were hurt...not you...
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It depends how much you want to spend. Top end would be Haldanes at 4K per hour.... local firm much much cheaper... but you pay for what you get.
You def. need a lawyer, unfortunetly the police here a fairly useless on low end cases and completely untrust worthy. Plenty of horror stories over the years. I have seen a police officer assult an Indian guy (came up behind the guy and stuck his foot out, while another police pushed him backwards so he fell to the floor) in Wanchai, not knowing I was watching, and then arrrested the Indian guy for assalt. When I complained to his superior, he told me to go away or I would be arrested....
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mdap
16 yrs ago
get Kevin Steel from Robertsons to defend you ....
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everyone fighting in public is charged with assault. When you go to court, tell the judge your story and it'll likely get dropped. same thing happened to my friend at new years. drunk local hit him with a beer bottle over the head. he fought back, spent the night in jail and eventually went to court where all charges were dropped.
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Alright Darin,
Now you can tell us all the real story. (We've heard the bullshit one.) I've lived in Wanchai for years. Dude, Gweilo's don't get attacked in Wanchai. What really happened? Were you talking when you should have been listening?
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Best would have been if you had gone to hospital and documented your injuries or whatever.
A lot of the time it seems that the person that ends up most injured gets the advantage; no matter who started it.
Hopefully if no big or serious injuries on the other guys you'll be ok.
If any bottles or chairs etc involved it can mean big problems; trust only fighting, fists and kicking etc.
Let us know how it went in end...
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it is normal procedure for both parties to be charged with assault. dont worry the charges will be dropped against you. plus it was 2 of them and only you. tell that to the police and they will eventually drop all charges and fine the other parties...if incase this matter goes to the courts you will only get a warning and have to sign a $1000 bond for about a year and pay 350$ in court fee. same has happend to me before too.
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Well a lot said but I was charged for assault and the case went like this. One Sunday in Wanchai I got frustrated with a guy for his ignorance and I threw my hands up in the air - nothing more. I was 9 feet away from him. The police came and I was charged for assault.
I was taken to Wanchai police station and held in a cell for about six hours - I had about 4 bottles of beer was very cooperative and was certainly not drunk. But the other guy was a non drinking god fearer. I gave a statement that said exactly as I have written here.
The victim said the same thing too but he said I had frightened him as I may hit him next time - the police proceeded.
I had a lawyer and council.
First hearting the judge wanted the case to be withdrawn as the charge sheet for the court said "made a gesture of throwing a punch from a distance" the prosecutors denied and were given the chance to amend their charge sheet this time it said "threw a punch" no mention of distance or contact. I pleaded not guilty to assault or to throwing a punch.
The day in court - victim and only one witness both say the same I threw my arms in the air (not one but both arms) and that it happened from 9 feet away but victim pressed that he was scared.
I was fined HK$5,000 and have a three years order to keep the peace and a criminal record and I never even touched anyone. By the way victim and I are both gweillos and he has a record as long as your arm.
Justice in Hong Kong is a joke - Hong Kong has I am told on of the worlds highest conviction rate in that if you go to court you will be found guilty - my advice get a lawyer and get him to try to stop the matter with the DoJ - however he can tell you all you like to hear but in the end of the day it depends on the guy wearing the wig and how he feels on that day - not what he hears or sees - and the need to uphold the very high conviction rate.
GOOD LUCK
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I have quite an experience to share of my own: A few years back, I got upset at a taxi driver over stupidity on a traffic related matter and wound up TOUCHING, not hitting, but touching my head against his. I wanted to hit him badly but held back since I didn't want the legal hassles to follow. Anyway, by the touching I previously mentioned, I already might as well had hit him I found out later. He gladly went to the hospital and they took me to the station. I gave a statement and was released a couple hours later, never went to the tank.
Everyone I asked before the court date said don't worry, it's a fine, just plead guilty because if not, I'll need to go back to court, miss more work, etc. Plead guilty, pay a small fine, move on with life.
So, I did what I thought was best and easiest. At Kwun Tong court in front of judge Tallentire (or whatever his name was), a white guy, which I was quite happy to get, I pleaded guilty. Ready to receive my HKD 1,000.00 or so fine, I was surprised to say the least, when he said what I did was a very serious offence and this is a serious matter. He IMMEDIATELY remanded me into CUSTODY and I went to JAIL in Lai Chi Kok for 14 DAYS!!! No bail, no amount of money to get me out. During that time, I had an assessment of my sycological history and a bunch of other rubbish that this judge required. 14 days later, back to court, get slapped with a few thousand dollar fine and 150 hours community service.
I lost my job because of my immediate and extended absence by the way which is kind of ironic considering that was the main reason I wanted to just plead guilty in the first place so I didn't miss any more work on account of it.
That totally changed my life here and it took a long time to get back on track. GET COUNSIL !!! That was another mistake I made. I got counsil after I was already sent to jail, and he said I should have never pleaded guilty!
I don't want to scare you as what happened to me was way over the top and don't expect that this type of thing happens often. I just happened to be in a really unlucky situation is all.
I do wish you luck and remember that the next time you find yourself in a similar situation, avoid any touching what-so-ever or hit and prepare to get the hell out of there before the police get there and make sure you can't be traced.
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So hear is the latest - I went to give what I thought was going to be my statement with my council and they charge me with one count of wounding and one count of common assault - I could not believe it - I never gave my statement -- My council is trying to get the matter bound over. We will see how that goes... I have never seen, heard or been a part of something so insane.. No idea what is going to happen now...
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Hey Huggy, Darin15 and anyone else who reads..
This is a great post and I wish I had done the same thing when I was in this situation! It gives readers who may have this happen to them (God forbid) at least some wisdom about what to do if it does.
2 more things to ponder - If this happens to a foreigner in HK and you don't have many ties here and don't really like it that much anyway, you CAN go on a 'trip' back home and not return. On some crappy little charge like this, they won't take your passport and they won't come looking for you. That is one sure way to forget it and move on with life. I know it's not best to run from your problems, but I've been there and know, sometimes you need to weigh, just how important is it?
Another thing, if you're going to stay and fight it, you need to focus very hard to keep this out of your mind as much as possible except for the times you're speaking with your counsel or dealing in some way with the problem directly. It's really really hard to do this but it's like a living hell to be consumed with this 24/7. What happened, happened and what's going to happen will and letting your thoughts run wild with it won't change anything but just make life extremely miserable.
Anyone in this situation may want to try some meditation classes or some other form of simple mind control/clensing as our mind can be like a naughty child left unattended! Nothing feeds this more than being caught on the wrong side of a faulty legal system.
Judging by the number of posts on this topic, this is more of a disgusting issue here than we like to think.
Keep us informed on how it pans out.
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gunk
16 yrs ago
You need council badly- charged with wounding - at least a laceration - did not need your statement - obviously have independent witnesses (cab driver?) who put you in the frame - you have been 'sparse' with the truth - no wonder your council wants to go for a 'binding over' order. Convictions for 'wounding' can result in serious jail time. Personally think your version is bullshit like postings above.
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Something does not add up here. I know the local constables are different from back home, but this place has always been based on UK laws, so I have confidence they do not run rough shod over one's rights. My guess is Darin is not telling us everything - previous record, professional fighter, army special forces etc could be factors in how one guy defending himself could put two other guys in the hospital. May be excessive force was used in defending oneself. Sorry for speculating - hope you get the justice you seek.
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Wounding does put a spanner into the works, so to speak. As advised early, if it was simple common assault the most you would looking at is a fine. Wounding (agree with gunk above) is a custodial offence. To be honest, my experience with Bind overs do not involve Wounding because the Prosecution simply will not accept it because of its seriousness... so hopefully your counsel is on top of it. I think the best case scenario is that there are a number of eyewitnesses and, because of alcohol, noone can remember the same version! If there is a brawl, it is quite hard for a court to find that one particular person is responsible. good luck.
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Darin forget all this chat just go and see a solicitor and he will be able to advise you.
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I went to court today - My council was able to get the police and "Victims" to agree to bind the case over.. I sat there for roughly 5 hours and went before the judge and she bound it over... I am not happy about how they were the victim, but very happy this is behind me with no record... Huge monkey off my back!!!
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D-Man
16 yrs ago
You know this is so very common in HK. it just show how inconsistant the law really is here. Partley its the police and partley the legal system. I have know many people over my years in HK go through very similar situations and the outcomes are always miles appart.
It just strengthens the fact that the HK legal system is a mess and there is no one interested in doing a damn thing about it.
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I would disagree that the HK legal system is a mess... compare HK to the rest of the world and you can see that it is the best in Asia certainly and probably better than most countries in the world. We have a very strong anti-corruption organisation (ICAC) and even though there are times officers overreach, there is an instilled belief that if you commit a corrupt act in HK, YOU WILL GET CAUGHT... not so most countries in the world where corruption is simply a way of life and hinders social and political development. At least in HK one does not get beaten silly by the police to get a confession - many safeguards are in place. Yes, coercion does exist, but I would much rather get arrested in HK than anywhere in Africa, Thailand, Indonesia, India etc...at least the rule of law exists here and one should know one's rights (you would be ignorant if you did not make enquiries of your rights in any given situation)
As to people interested in doing something about the current system, there are many who keep trying to improve. CAPO is in place to bring complaints against police. You have a right to a lawyer in a police station before giving any statement -if you insist on a lawyer instead of waiving your right then there can be no complaint. Yes, Darin here was victimised, but luckily he got off with a B/O.... and one needs to learn how to play the system sometimes, like going to the hospital in this case.
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D-Man
16 yrs ago
Well i think the issue of corruption is a completely different issue and we would not en need an ICAC or CAPO if the legal system was efective. There are many situations where officers and political persons are involved in bad dealings and so much of it is not even let out to the public. Yes the system may appear on the surface to be better than other Asia regions but if that is the only comparison then its not a very high standard.
I am refering to the constnat inconsitancies in the legal system. Having know many people over the years involved in it as well as a few personal experiences I can tell you it is a mess.
You are correct on the point that people shouold know their rights and individuals should do thier research but then the so callled rights are open to interpretaion in a court of law so where does that leave the 'rule of law'? Its all just very inconsistant.
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does "bound over" mean not guilty and no conviction?
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while generally good, the problem with icac is that it refuses to touch the big shots for political reasons. until a tycoon has been jailed, icac will remain a threat to small people only
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does anyone know that if one if bailed in such circumstances (for an extended period) if the US will allow that person to enter if they are visiting on a visa?
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There are two distinct agencies involved in such an investigation. 1. Police 2.Court.
1. It is not the function of the Police to decide the innocence or guilt of persons. That is the function of the Court. Usually, following an assault, or related incident, there will be claim of assault, battery, and of course counter claim. In this situation the Police will move to preserve the peace and then collate the accounts of those involved, and/or witnesses who come forward and so gather evidence for/against those involved. The initial poster claimed self defence, alas, the alleged assailants counter claimed assault ( as is often the situation). Either way no doubt assault did occur. The poster in claiming self defence may well have been justified to fight back in self defence, but the amount of force he used would have to be adjusted and restrained regarding to the level of assault/force used against him/her. Herein arises the situation where he ends up charged. There is evidence of him assaulting in self defence (probably by his own admission while making initial complaint) and so the Police charge him and leave it up to the Court to decide if he was justified in using force in his defence. This is normal procedure in many countries.
In Court, you do not get Justice, you get law. The laws of evidence, the balance of weight of evidence provided, the number of/ quality of and how compelling witnesses are. Medical evidence will be strong in proving the level of force used and one persons evidence backing up another, should they appear honest is strong too. It is important at the scene of such an incident to draw the attention of the Police to possible witnesses, or other matters of evidential value. In the absence of independant witnesses I can see how the poster would be in......court looking at the victims.
Thugs are just that, if they will kick your head in on the street, they will Lie to the Police and the Judge, they will even be capable of self inflicting some interesting injuries prior to examination by a doctor if the Police are involved. Further, you cannot beat the daylights out of Thugs because they push, slap, thump you etc, the level of force you use in return in the name of self defence must be adjusted and restrained.
Easy thing to do.......walk away.......get another Taxi.........there is enough of them. If you really genuinely have to defend yourself, try make sure that any witnesses stay to give the true account to the Police.
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my 8 years old son was shouted at with profanity with no reason in Shatinwai on the way to school. when i tried to protect my son the, assailant went with furyand raised a metal rod and swore to crack my skull, threatening us. i just tried to keep out of trouble and walked away. few days later, we met the same guy, the assailant on the same spot before, this time he threatened to kill us, with a lot of pedestrian and taxi stand around. again i walked away from trouble and kept quiet. last thursday, we met the crazy guy again , feeling threatened for the life and safety of my child son and mine, i called the police. the guy tried to run and threatening to get his gun with eight bullets to teach me a lesson, that he killed man before. the oolice came, the guy was nowhere to be found. there were a lot of people saw and heard what happened but none was willing to talk to the police. the police told me since you have no witness, they cannot do anything, my son was not considered a credible witness. i am sure we are going to meet the assailant in the future, i do not know what to do, can someone help this single parent.!!!!!
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thank you dearest marlboro, the law seems to protect the rich and powerful, not ordinary law abiding citizens, appreciate for your sugguestions.
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94RS
14 yrs ago
Mike,
the officer you dealt with is talking nonsense. The police will and should follow up on you report, but whether they have sufficient evidence at the end of the day to charge this looney to court, is another matter. By seeking to put, and in fact putting you in fear for your safety, there is evidence of criminal intimidation and this is something the police take very seriously.
I suggest you keep a record of the past incidents, dates, times and words spoken / threats made, keep a look out for this individual and if you see him again call the police before going anywhere near him. Quote the past incidents when you report the sighting and the police will follow up. Also if you have a camera phone, I suggest you discreetly activate this (so not to provoke him) if you come into contact with the guy again, and then you will have your evidence.
HK is a very safe city! Hope you're situation gets sorted soon.
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lalib
14 yrs ago
next time your in that area, try to have someone with you wife/friend/helper on the other side of the road so that they are deemed a credible witness and can take a photo.
Furthermore, there must be some CCTV camera's in the area or public transport that you could ask the police to review.
As 94 RS said, keep a record and maybe get some advise from a criminal lawyer.
Best of luck
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Mike71:
First, get yourself a small video camera or a phone with a camera that can take video. If you already have one, then use it. Begin recording video from the moment that you step out of your front door with your son and don't stop until you are either back home or at your office or in some other place far away from the person you're encountering (i.e. CP / crazy person).
Next, change the route that you take to accompany your son to school in such a way as to not run into CP.
If you do (despite your best efforts) run into CP, try to get his physical and verbal threats on record _while_ you are making haste away from him. If you can ask him his name and where he lives and he's stupid enough to answer and you can get it on video/audio as well, even better.
The reason that your first step should be to genuinely do everything possible to avoid this guy is that, if you run into him again and you exchange blows with him, even in self defense or in the defense of your son, you could easily end up in trouble yourself. It would be difficult to explain how, despite your belief that the guy was dangerous and was sincere in the threats that he was making, you kept to the same route every day. Someone (not me) might argue that, after the first encounter or couple of encounters, you were seeking an altercation with that guy.
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dearest lucas.ogara, thank you very much indeed for your advice, i could feel the world is full of love and frustration. the spot where we met the CP is about twenty yards from my son's school. there is no other route to school.i am a single dad a loner . i don't go to church any more. i have complained to the headmaster and social worker. i feel really helpless. i had got into trouble once before into an incident exactly the case as your last described, i defended my son and i got charged with assault, i learnt my lesson and always turn my other cheek. the CPs are all in their sixties. when in the area of Shatinwai and Shakok estate, please be aware.besides, when i told the police about the CP's iron rod and threat to go home and get a gun with eight bullets to blow my head off, the police officer then accused me instead of carrying a stick myself, which i need in order to walk properly. what can i do, dear lord.God bless you. thank you again lugas.ogara and all the people who read my message
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the crazy person threatened me again this morning, threatening to crack my head with his iron rod. i called the police. the assailant was gone before the police arrived. nothing is done.
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I'm not suer how all these people get themselves into trouble here. Have lived here forty years and have never been threatened or threatened anyone else. You can critisize any legal system (UK - going 'soft' on rape and not giving jail time when because jails are full) but HK is a very safe place because of the legal system. Read any UK or US newspaper and the stories about assaults and killing are horrendous and plentiful, by and against all races, age groups, genders and socio economic backgrounds. Women, children and the elderly are safe on the streets and in their homes in HK, with very few crimes committed, especially against complete strangers. If you find yourself in a difficult situation, control your temper and walk away, its not worth the repurcussions, in HK it is highly unlikely they will chase you down and attack you as in other countries.
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I tend to agree with ann cranston. While I have no doubt that there is violence, if you compare with Europe or the US the crime level is extremely low.
Heck, there were 3 burglaries two weekends ago South Side and the district councilman sent out an email about it, talking about precautions and so forth. "Big" news. In the US three burglaries in this large an area would hardly have earned a mention.
"If you find yourself in a difficult situation, control your temper and walk away"
Good advice in any country actually.
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