It's not a secret that many of us expats are leaving Hong Kong in droves due redundancies in the financial sector. Many are waiting for their kids to finish school next month and are already packing. Sad isn't it! Are there any good employment prospects for some of us who want to stay?
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so are you one of the many already hit by the crises?
if can work outside the finance sector, seriously how much do you think you'll need earn in order to get by? getting by i mean your basic necessities such as housing, school fees and a monthly salary?
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That's what I wanna know ... what sort of adjustments is needed for a family of four to get my? Any insightful hints are welcome
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"what sort of adjustments is needed for a family of four?"
If you are going to work outside the financial sector, or in a less demanding finance job, you could consider moving to the New Territories / DB / one of the outlying islands - not only will you save a lot on your rent / mortgage, but you will probably improve your family's standard of living as well.
If your kids are in expensive private schools, can they change to ESF?
Can you get rid of your car? And your helper?
Can you cut your annual trip to the UK / US down to once per 18-24 months?
If the answers to the above are favourable, I think you can manage on $70,000 -$80,000 per month. But whether you can find another job right now is another question. They certainly are few and far between. That said, there are SOME jobs available out there, some one's going to get them, why not you?
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MJ1
17 yrs ago
Many local HK families live on monthly incomes between 20,000 - 30,000. Obviously, it all depends on whether you can accept a lifestyle without all the perks you previously enjoyed (i.e. big apartment close to Central, car, eating out at expensive restaurants, expensive schooling etc).
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cd
17 yrs ago
Yes, you can live somewhere smaller, further out, not have a helper etc, but the schoolings a different matter. Even for ESF you're still looking at around $8k per child, plus school buses.
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Love the comment 'I think you can manage on $70, 80K a month' would love to have an income that high, most of us manage on less than half of that!!!
I imagine it's not so much a question of what you can 'live' on it's more about adjusting to a very different lifestyle....
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seems a lot of people really don't know how much some of the financiers are on....they get more than $80K just in housing!
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"manage on a mere 70 or 80k per month??? Good lord, how much do you finance people make? Sorry I have little sympathy for the "dilemma" of such people. Good luck but maybe its a job that has to die."
Of course investment bankers "manage". That is never in question or as skippy 123 eloquently puts is: "it's more about adjusting to a very different lifestyle."
As for the job dying, I doubt it. There will always be people making a lot of money because some jobs cannot be done by everyone. Investment banking, if we ignore for a moment the silliness of the past few years, requires dedication, intelligence and most importantly extremely hard work. Not everyone wants to or can do it, which means high salaries. Just like doctors or lawyers.
"Good lord, how much do you finance people make?"
Much more than that. A take home salary of 80k a month is in the junior end of things for front office. And then there are bonuses, if they ever return.
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...some jobs cannot be done by everyone.....requires dedication, intelligence and most importantly extremely hard work. Not everyone wants to or can do it, which means high salaries....
for a minute there I thought you were talking about teachers....then you mentioned high salaries....lol
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"seems a lot of people really don't know how much some of the financiers are on....they get more than $80K just in housing!"
Yes.. a lot of people really don't know.. Not many get more than 80k just in housing.
"Good luck but maybe its a job that has to die."
As axptguy38 says, finance will never die.. It will probably change in the next few years, but as long as you need banking (for daily needs + investing) and insurance (to stay financialy safe from any future problem), finance will exist uncer many forms and activities.
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Some people indeed do not know how much investment bankers make (or made). But there are even more investment bankers (as a percentage) that have no idea what most people in the "real economy" make.
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"for a minute there I thought you were talking about teachers....then you mentioned high salaries....lol"
Hehe. Well. I certainly think teaching requires dedication and I think teachers should have decent salaries. But then you get into the whole private/state school debate and there is no simple and elegant solution. Having said that, there is no way teachers work as hard as most investment bankers. The hours alone are simply not comparable.
"yeah I should be more specific-- its not finance that needs to die out, but the salaries maybe?
i know i am asking capitalism to not be capitalism ;-) and maybe i am a bit jealous! but the salaries are absurd to me. I mean I thought i was over-privileged making a univ salary."
As I mentioned the salaries will not die as long as the pool of people willing and able to do the job is small compared to demand. It's just supply and demand. Nothing absurd about it.
"Anyone" can do it. If a person works VERY hard that person can make lot of money, as an investment banker or otherwise. But the sacrifices this entails in terms of (lack of) personal life are not something most people are willing to make. The investment bankers I know tend to put in 60-70 hours on a "normal" week, not to mention being available at awkward times when there is a crisis. They see their children not very much. They attend conference calls at 10pm once or twice a week. One guy I know routinely gets to work at 5am. Most others don't get home until at least 9pm. Banks have to pay high salaries simply to attract enough people.
Current economy aside, many people CAN be investment bankers. Most people wouldn't WANT to given the lifestyle choices involved. Sure, the money is nice, but it only comes with years and years of dedication.
My point is that these people have made big sacrifices. They deserve to be paid the big bucks. The last few years were an aberration of weirdness. Sure, there were "bad guys", but 99.9% of investment bankers just did their jobs, working very hard as ever. Let's not forget that.
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cara, that's you. I can certainly believe in you being dedicated. I just can't believe in the average teacher being that dedicated. Some do, certainly, but I don't think most teachers work anywhere near that hard. If nothing else the poor pay is a poor incentive.
As for teachers deserving high pay, I certainly agree.
"The bankers' pay or job doesn't have anything to do with SACRIFICE and in HK 60 hours week is not anything special, lots of people with low pay are working that much; there's still 6 day working week here."
I'll grant you the point about hours. But I will repeat that investment bankers don't get to the big bucks without sacrifice. Of course there are rewards, but as a rule they are hard working people. If nothing else the crisis has weeded out the slackers.
Also, hours alone are not everything. Working in a, say, shop 60 hours a week, with lots of rather calm time every day, is not the same as being a lawyer, or a doctor, or a banker 60 hours a week, where almost every minute is full on.
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im a teacher too cara, so i'm with you ....axpt, walk a mile before you make that judgement...i guarantee a week in a typical grade 2 classroom and you'll be screaming for your 60 hr bankers job...
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".axpt, walk a mile before you make that judgement...i guarantee a week in a typical grade 2 classroom and you'll be screaming for your 60 hr bankers job..."
I'm sorry but I'm still not buying. Those kids are off for the whole summer! ;) And you get lunch breaks and all that. My wife has taken maybe five 1 hour lunches in the past 18 months. Otherwise it's 10 minutes at her desk while doing emails.
I'm not saying that some teachers don't work hard. I'm just saying that most investment bankers work harder than most people imagine possible.
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Not all can be bankers and not all can be teachers. Definitely many bankers won't choose to become english teachers in Hong Kong.
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axpt...for very many teachers, those summer 'holidays' are spent taking courses, not sipping margaritas on a beach somewhere...i have had exactly ZERO 1 hour lunches in the past 3 years, rather 15 mins to gobble down food, then to the playground for supervision to make sure kids that are not my own aren't hurting themselves or others, or if I'm REALLY lucky, i get to supervise the actual lunch itself, with 100 screaming kids wo would rather do ANYTHING but eat, but if they don't eat, will we falling asleep in the afternoon...
you might want to visit your kid's school sometime, and talk to your kid's teacher to find out how difficult their job really is...and please mention the points you did here, you might get your eyes opened a bit
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I will grant the fact that I don't know that much about teacher jobs. Point taken. However I will counter that most of you don't know a lot about investment banking jobs. There are advantages, of course. But investment bankers work hard for the money. The banks would love to pay the a quarter of their current salaries, but then the work wouldn't get done.
As I said before, I have no problems with teachers having high salaries. The reason they don't have them is because there are enough teachers to go around. Investment banks are always looking for good candidates, and they are hard to find, even in a recession.
"My investment Banker mates do slave at home in front of usually 2 PCs, a laptop (or two) and a couple of TVs (is it Bloomberg and some other channel?) going 24:7 but they still nip down to Starbucks for a coffee, join the lads for a pint in the evening, and they work at HOME."
Now you sound just like I did when I gave my impression of teacher jobs. ;) Incomplete information on both sides.
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"If you can shop at wet markets, live in housing estates in one room apartments, give up both the cars, forget holidays, eat mainland pork, give up the maids and eat lunch boxes instead of restaurants you will have no problem, but only if you can also find work of course."
Getting a bit carried away here.. Some non investment bankers have perfectly decent lives, and don't need to go to such extremes. (for extremes Im not talking of the getting rid of the maids and cars part.. but living in the one bedroom apartment and eating from lunch boxes??)
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bougainville - it's not that black and white in HK! You can live a pretty frugal lifestyle here no problem at all without localising IF you want to of course. But first you need to know HK and to be honest this is where many who spend their entire time on the island fall down.
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I have always thought that investment bankers get their big bucks simply because they are smart enough to position themselves nearer to the source of wealth. To hear one defending their entitlement to their much bigger slice of the cake on the basis of long hours, stress, dedication, sacrifice etc. as compared with other professions made me wonder: can one be smart and naive at the same time?
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gracehasle, long hours, stress and sacrifice mean fewer people can and/or want to do it. Hence higher wages. Investment banks would hardly pay the big bucks if they could avoid it. Now, there are other professions that require long hours, stress and sacrifice, but there seem to be enough people going into those professions to ensure wages are lower. If more people studied finance and tried to get into investment banking, wages would be lower.
"I have always thought that investment bankers get their big bucks simply because they are smart enough to position themselves nearer to the source of wealth."
Which begs two questions:
- Why don't other people figure this out?
- Why would being "nearer the source of wealth" bring about more money? Does a maid for a real estate tycoon necessarily make more than a maid for a school teacher? Isn't she nearer the "source of wealth"?
As I said before, investment banking is a tough job and not a lot of people can and/or want to do it. Hence there are few candidates, and even fewer good ones. Hence high salaries.
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Alot of people think they could easily do the job.. question is, why dont they??
I have many friends who tried and didn't last more than 2 years.. They thought it was ok to work hard and long hours at the beginning, but quickly had enough of it being every day,.. every week.
We are talking long hours, often with no breaks (maybe 10 mins to grab a quick lunch and take it back to work). I don't doubt that some teachers work hard.. but when they say they work until midnight. Is that non stop? Or is it leaving school at 4PM, having a quick rest, a nice dinner, then back to work from 8 until midnight? Or is it going to the office at 7AM and leaving work at midnight?
maybe you still work during holidays.. But you are still on holidays for several weeks, meaning there are several consecutive weeks where you won't be working or only working a few hours per day..
Most investment bankers don't take more than a week off.. which is hardly a break as they need a few days to totally forget about work, and by then the holiday is over.
Everyone seems to think Investment bankers get all the cash with a job does doesn't require anything more than any other job, yet not many want to do it... weird.
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mayo
17 yrs ago
"long hours, stress and sacrifice mean fewer people can and/or want to do it"
I have to disagree. I think a lot of people want to get into investment banking on high salaries but those same high salaries mean less jobs made available and more competition for them. My husbands job provides us with a very generous salary package and although i think he's smart, more than capable, dedicated and willing to suffer stress and long hours I don't think we can really justify getting THAT much more that joe-down-the-road. Some of it I have to put down to being just damn lucky.
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I don't think that people are saying that investment bankers don't work hard or that anyone can do their jobs but rather that the financial rewards have been disproportionally large over the last 10 years at least - far exceeding those salaries of doctors, lawyers and engineers - the professions banking is commonly compared to.
When Robert Kissel was murdered a tthe age of 38 he left 18 million US in assets - unlikley your average doctor or lawyer would have similar wealth at that age.
i'd compare it to the tech bubble of the early 90s where people working with software and other computer technology made huge sums of money. Banking has recently gone though a similar bubble and, i'd expect, the next generation of bankers won't make the big bucks quite so quickly or easily.
I also think that the word "sacrifice" with its connotations of altruism is perhaps not the right one to use in this context. Investment banking is no more (and, some might say, a lot less!) altruistic than other professions such as teaching. To give up family time for greater financial reward is a career and lifestyle CHOICE - not a sacrifice.
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one thing to add to axptguy38's post is that, apart from the long hours and stress of market changes every second during the trading hours (maybe 14+ hrs if you monitor multiple locations...), some have to face being swored at constantly for bad trades done, being yelled at by clients for market downturn. Just understand when investors loose money, first party to point finger to is the banker, so I would say part of the pay covers for these mental abuses as well. As for long hours, I know ppl who literally live in the office together for weeks during IPOs, brush teeth in the office bathroom, nap for only 2-3 hrs in order to meet the deadline. During 2007, remember how many IPOs had happened...? physically, I don't think many can be in such a job for more than 3 year's time, one year in the job you almost age by 10 years... So taking that these ppl have high education, most would rather make less and have a steady, healthy life. Hence causing the very few candidates as mentioned.
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smallfry, I agree with you except for the Robert Kissel part. The problem is nowadays, the media tend to constantly report the high pay outs of top executives and people tend to think that these pay outs concern the whole industry. Most investment bankers aren't anywhere near USD 18Mios at the age of 38.
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I live on a salary of 30K per month and support three people (two children (one at ESF school) and a helper) plus myself and a fussy cat... it is possible but its not a walk in the park ... usually I come out but if there's a crisis there is no soft place to fall
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"Getting a bit carried away here.. Some non investment bankers have perfectly decent lives, and don't need to go to such extremes. (for extremes Im not talking of the getting rid of the maids and cars part.. but living in the one bedroom apartment and eating from lunch boxes??)"
There's nothing wrong with bringing your own lunch to work - seems to me to be the best way to save on unecessary expenses
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Going back to this thread...., there seems to be not a lot of expats made redundant! At least in AX.
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On the contrary, there are plenty of expats who have been made redundant. There are also many who still have their jobs but their company will no longer maintain them in HK.
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Fair points Islandhopper. But I still say that thinking investment bankers make more because they are "closer to the source of wealth" is a fallacy.
"Same story with schools, no matter what kind of star teacher you are and how much you work, government or parents are not able to pay you investment banker's salary & bonus...."
Quite. But teachers know that going in. And yet there are plenty of candidates. Supply and demand.
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Does the government maintain the number of expats made redundant? Is it part of the 5.3 unemployment rate released recently?
In Today's SCMP it mentioned that Credit Suisse and Fortis have fired some people this week, in addition, headhunters tell of thousands of resumes but finding only 2 jobs ...
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Banks are going back to traditional businesses. Raising financing for clients has always been a core business. But now Banks must have their own balance sheet to support these deals whereas in the past they took a lot of risks and were highly leveraged. The traditional IBanks are now becoming more like commercial banks.
Risk management products are becoming less complicated and less structured. Obama is even suggesting more regulations of derivatives. There will always be a need for vanilla bankers, so I would say the redundancies would most likely come from the structured products areas, wealth management. These are usually manned by expats because of expertise built in NY and Ldn and trf to HK. There are many more locals in traditional banking who are less affected.
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"In Today's SCMP it mentioned that Credit Suisse and Fortis have fired some people this week, in addition, headhunters tell of thousands of resumes but finding only 2 jobs ..."
Pretty anecdotal. One thing to keep in mind is that many investment banks fire 10% of the workforce every year (the worst performers) and hire the same number of (hopefully) better performers. This year they haven't been doing step 2...
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This is an absolute best time to get rid of your bottom 10% performers even if your company is doing well as it's acceptable. Ibankers rode the wave and are now a dying breed left over from a false economy.
Huuum, engineering student becomes financial adviser. BA grad same and list goes on. They went where the money was and if smart socked it away but me thinks NOT!
My wife just left the banking sector as it was full of nitwits, scored the same package with a global company (non banking) same pay as she was able to SHOW HER TRANSFERABLE SKILLS CLEARLY and to be honest was chased for years anyhow as a top performer. The exception!
This is a great time for other companies who could not acquire top talent as the banking sector owned them, to slice 15% of their bottom line as well to get them.
May the best man or woman win!
On living in HK, you have to have a job right now or going to one shortly or you might as well pack it up. It's going to an absolute brutal road. I would however look into SE Asia alternatives where the cost of living is half that of HK who will look at hiring expats (I use that term very loosely as this is again changing for good to local packages in HK) to grow their businesses still dependent on squeezing as much out of their export driven or domestic driven business models.
Example, $80K HKD per month in HK would be okay, but say $60K/m HKD equivalent to say KL is magic as the cost of living is 60% less.
Good Luck!
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It is easy to see that many expats are leaving HK by the number and age of the posts on this website. About 3 years ago, if in the morning you posted a question, by the afternoon it was on the second page. Now, on the first page you can see that the reply posts are 2 days old. Never used to be like this.
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"Ibankers rode the wave and are now a dying breed left over from a false economy."
There's no way that investment bankers are a dying breed. The demand for their "tradtional" services, like raising capital and market marking, will always be there. Certainly the industry has shrunk and will shrink more, but it will stay around.
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Yes, axptguy38, maybe not dead but like in 2001 all the VC's hid under rocks and it was a tough road to place money. One of my fav's GE Capital back in the day who financed many a high tech startup somehow survived and jumped on the alternative loan wagon. Likely one of the best Ninga loan providers out there, now they are finally toast.
When this all plays out, the IB will be the bad guy, not to be trusted, especially with calculating market cap for traded companies. The wall street 1/4ly forecaster will also feel like an outsider.
It's not a question in my mind whether IB has value in the GREAT GLOBAL RESET, it is more the perception Main Street will have when this all shakes out starting now and for years to come.
Just make sure you start looking in alternative career streams as I went through it in High Tech and it cured me. Came to Asia to run a company and never looked back.
To the poster, again look at alternatives in Asia as depending how you play it, you will be pleasantly surprised with your options.
Good Luck Again!
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It's a good idea to pay financial regulators high salaries. A contributory reason to the crisis was that regulators didn't have the resources or knowledge to figure out what was going on with credit instruments.
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Mr Yam's absurdly high package did not prevent the lehman misselling debacle in HK
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That's just one person. If he had a high salary and the rest of the staff is underpaid and overworked, no wonder they failed in their mandate.
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All the high paid at the SEC didnt make a bit of difference for the banks or Madoff!
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"It's a good idea to pay financial regulators high salaries. A contributory reason to the crisis was that regulators didn't have the resources or knowledge to figure out what was going on with credit instruments."
So how does throwing ridiculous amounts of money at someone in terms of personal remuneration increase their knowledge or resources??...better to use 10mil/year of Yams salary to get him the resources he needs, and hire more knowledgeable people around him, instead of him buying a nicer investment property/yacht/supercar/insert frivolous expense here...
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To be efficient as a regulator you need to understand the markets and products, therefore you need to have a similar knowledge and competence to the investment bankers..
How can you attract regulators with small remuneration? If the gap between IBs and regulators is too big, regulators will either go to IBs or just not bother doing their work efficiently.
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i find it hard to believe that 1M/year each for 10 underlings (for arguements sake...maybe he only needs 5 at 2M each...) for Joseph Yam wouldn't attract a horde of well qualified, knowledgeable and competent people, especially in the current climate...
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Joseph Yam is the highest paid central banker in the world. He earns 7 times as much as his counterpart in the US.
Where is the logic in that?
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You're confusing the issue. You can't pay one person a lot of money and expect his/her subordinates to perform exceptional jobs if they have normal or sub-par salaries. If you want regulators to approach the knowledge and skills exhibited by investment banks (and they are not insignificant) you must pay rank-and-file regulators better than most are paid today.
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We locals have been complaining for years about Joseph Yam's pay. There's no logic!!!
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'You're confusing the issue. You can't pay one person a lot of money and expect his/her subordinates to perform exceptional jobs if they have normal or sub-par salaries. If you want regulators to approach the knowledge and skills exhibited by investment banks (and they are not insignificant) you must pay rank-and-file regulators better than most are paid today.'
Not sure who 'You're' is but what I'm saying is, take say 8M of Yam's 10+M salary, and hire 5 guys that can convince us they know what they're doing (after all, thats all the high-payed IBers do anyway) at 1.6M each...surely somebody can be lured from one of the (now failing) IBs to work for a paltry 1.6M (sarcasm)...
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I love it when teachers make claims like they work as hard and have as stressful jobs as people like Investment Bankers... I mean seriously!
Many teachers don't live in reality, most of you went from school to uni then back to school and often marry a teacher. And for those of you who work all hours... possibly you aren't very efficient...
I think teaching is a great profession, and a good teacher is really something special. But the reality is most are there because they couldn't work out what else to do, and it's secure, and if you're lazy can just follow the cirriculum without any imagination. I just wish teachers would stop trying to make us feel sorry for their low wages (ahem low??) and that they can only take all of their 12 weeks holiday at peak season dates... yeah really tough.
Back to the topic at hand: most of the people I know have not lost their jobs to date, but if I personally lost my job I would apply for jobs anywhere in the world... really where is a god job market right now? There are jobs going, but the number and quality of applicants is increasing for positions. Why restrict yourself to a localised market which might not have any suitable positions going?
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Agreed with funbobby. That's what I meant. And I said "you're" because I felt the issue was confused by some but didn't want to point fingers more than in a vague direction. Lazy me. ;)
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Hey everyone, I see the original poster Mr.Goodheart hasn't even weighed in on his own post. With what I have read above, I wouldn't blame him.
When times are tough, the tough get going and sometimes that mean mobile! My advice is if you are even in a potentially redundant position, you better start looking at your options now.
You better start by adjusting your lifestyle and if it means taking a major salary hit in HK, you might want to start by looking for other regions where the cost of living is quite a bit less.
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