Posted by
yeunggggg
17 yrs ago
Most expats have jobs in front-line Banking that came from Business degrees etc and get paid 40-100K or above. How did you apply to get into this industry or position. Did you use headhunters or use personal connections?
Any advices are very appreciated.
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And I'm interested in winning the Mark Six. I would also appreciate any advice.
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Don't use headhunters when you start. They ll only be interested in you if you have experience, as they ll only want to work for someone who has a good chance of getting them their commission.
Personal connections is probably the easiest way, but depending on your age, it can also be interesting to look at the graduate programs that most Investments Banks have on their websites, and work your way up from there.
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Unfortunately, I wasn't able to join any graduate programs and now I have worked for a couple of years at non banking related fields. Right now, I am in a local retail bank where I have been working for a year just to increase my chances for I-banks. I have been declined for graduate programs in HK from some of major I-banks in the past and now feel that it's hard to change fields.
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The move from retail banking to IB is not always easy but yout best chance is probably to stay where you are (assuming your bank has a IB arm)
If you re over 26 I guess the move will be difficult as you d be competing against fresh graduates alot younger.
Keep your hopes up though if that s what you want to do.. Maybe someone in your bank has contacts.. Please also note that you won't be getting 100k+ when you start off as a junior.
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Sadly the bank that I'm in does not have the necessary IB arm, therefore it's quite hard to make the jump since it involves changing field & industry.
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Look at any IB website. Under Careers almost all will have graduate programs.. As I said before, it can be hard getting in as you ll have fresh graduates on there.. But if you ve got outstanding qualities on your resume you might get lucky. (some will aslo ask you to draft a few lines about yourself.. this is another area where you might get a chance to stand out..)
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working in the industry i am always amazed how people say 'i want to work in a ib' but probably only see the $$. most have no clue what ib is, what different areas there are, what counts and what doesnt, and so on. most would probably prefer to be the tea lady in an ib than a manager at a local bank :)
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As I'm very eager to move to IB, I would be more than eager to start from the beginning with an entry level such as an Analyst position assisting more experienced bankers with their line of duties while learning from them (yes, even if it involves being the tea lady from time to time).
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YOu first need to know exactly what you want to do.. There is probaly over 100 different jobs in an IB..
The most difficult part is being up against much younger candidates who ll have focused all their studies and internships on a specific IB role.
Having not started in the field, you ll easily look like someone who s just in for the money and doesn t have the 100% dedication needed. Hours in IBs are longer than retail banking and the atmosphere is probably very different. As Cookie said, more and more people are just looking to get into an IB, without knowing anything about the different activities they offer, jsut from reading recent (overly exagerated) articles on multi million (USD) dollar bonuses.
This is why you need to know exactly what you re interested in and what you want to do, and not only go for the cash.
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I'm not going to say that my move from local retail bank to IB is not about the money at all. Yes, multi million bonuses sound very exciting, but not essential in my view. The move is partly because of the money, but it is more due to the fact that I feel that I perform better in an international environment. I have learned a great lot in the retail bank in HK but feel that there's less room to progress. All they want are that you sell the mortgages and loans and fixed deposits really. Hope this shows that it's not a move to IB just because it's an IB.
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Yeungggg, what type of activity do you want to work in?
Iwilltry, maybe start by having a look at the SFC exams (Paper 1, etc...) .They re not very difficult and will look alot better if they re on your resume when you apply.
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After trying to break into for quite a few years, I must admit that I'll be totally satisfied with any entry analyst level position just to put my foot into the playfield. Once given the chance and there, I would focus in the front office mainly in Sales and trading.
It's just very hard to break in.
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I feel that if there's a will there's a way
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Yeungggg, Sales and Trading are 2 very different positions requiring very different skills.
YOu should really start by looking at the different positions and activities to narrow the search..
If you manage to get an interview and don't know what the positions require and even what the job is, you ll have very little chance of getting to the next stage. You ll be asked to demonstrate what skills you may have that can differenciate you from another... this is a difficult question to answer if you don't know what the position requres.. Do a bit of research on internet. YOu should find all the answers.
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Thanks MarathonHK... I will definitely lookup more on trading.
Are there any routes or even headhunters that you would suggest that I should turn consider, assuming that graduate programs is not an option. I've looking into jobsdb, monster etc. they don't get back to me. Robert half, Page, etc have positions too high up.. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong sources
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yeunggg it depends how old you are. if you are young, i suggest you look for a middle office role (trade support?) and try to bond with the traders or sales to make a move there in say 2 years.
if you try to go for a junior role on a desk directly, i do not think you have a chance as you compete against the latest wharton grad that just completed his studies in advanced economics and speaks cantonese, english and mandarin perfectly.
if you are a bit older (25-30), i would suggest you consider a fulltime mba and then try to enter as an associate directly.
however coming from retail banking, i think you should rather look at commercial banking or wealth management than IB directly. from there you can then move on either up to corporate banking (from commercial banking) or to private banking (from wealth management). in either place you can easily make the 100k/month.
most important however, you really need to understand what is out there in terms of functions, departments, products. then chose your targets and plot a path to there.
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As I said previously, headhunters are only interested in you if there s a good chance you ll bring them their commission. This means that unless you are experienced in the job you are applying for, there s little chance they ll put in any effort to help you.
Efinancialcareers sometimes has job offers from banks directly. It s good website with a lot of offers, advice, articles.. Good place to start your research on what you want to do.
Also beware that now is probably not the best time to opt for a different financial career in which you don't have any experience.. The market is still flooded with experienced bankers, and in the next few weeks, fresh graduates are going to come in as well.. My guess is to wait another 6 months for the job market to hopefully recover a bit.
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I would definitely start searching in efinancialcareers when I get back. Thanks for useful info! Very appreciated.
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I know how you feel yick yeung...
...hang in there...
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Yes they should know how lucky they are actually.
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I don t agree.. you do the right studies and you ll be in there easily for internships.. Then it s up to you to show you have the skills to be recruited.
What is sure is that you can't decide later on.. one day out of the blue that you want to make more money and so want to try to get into an IB. You get in young or it s too late.
My question to all of you who are only trying now to get in. Why didn't you start your career in an investment bank if that s what you wanted to do? Why decide now?
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Yes, I believe that it's a whole lot easier to get in when you are young and you knew back then you want to get into IBanks. But for lots of other people, they didn't know they want to work for IBanks when they were young and thus took up other jobs.
Question is: Is it really too late to get into even though they are determined to work in there?
I think there must be another way
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Iwilltry / Yeunggg
Internships are common in HK IBs. It's simply a question of odds. I used to be an assessor once at the graduate internship program of the bank where i work.
In that year there were a bit over 3000 applications for 12 slots (4 sales & trading, 8 M&A and ECM). You see, odds are very small.
Out of the 12 that came through, 1 was not a graduate but a bit older and she had an outstanding track record in M&A at a local bank from an Asian country, i.e. she knew the business already and wanted to upgrade the bank that she works for.
All other 11 were graduates from Wharton, CBS, Stanford, etc. One was a graduate from a local university (yes it's possible!) but he already had a scholarship to continue studies at not only Wharton but also Oxford because he A'ced every single class during his undergrads.
Conclusion:
- Don't complain if you dont get a response coz that would be asking too much from the bank.
- If you don't have the above background, you odds are even smaller (except you're the son of Li Ka Shing)
If you try to get internships at a later stage, it's usually for associate levels when graduating from a fulltime MBA (again the big names). One of my friends was one such lucky person at Morgan Stanley. They hired 8 interns globally and she was the only one in Asia. Her background: Top undergrad university in China, fluent in Cantonese, Mandarin and English, 7 years working experience in M&A at one of the top 3 local Chinese M&A house, prestigious MBA, super aggressive and confident personality. You got it, you get it.
Conclusion:
- If you are older, don't try the internship route if you don't graduate off a prestigious fulltime MBA.
- Rather make a career path to your dream and work your way up (as I described above)
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get a MBA from a top 10 school.
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tpol
17 yrs ago
switch to another retail bank which has a IB division.
Then try and see if there are openings there. Some will consider internal moves.
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Again there alot of different jobs in investment banking, and a lot of them don't require any interaction with anyone.. How does a trader interact with other people?
Dickhunter, skills required for some positions in Investment Banks are very different from skills required to be a good entrepreneur.
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Why would anyone want to be a junior investment banker, meaning an analyst or associate? Other than a way to get somewhere it sucks, talk honestly to any junior IBanker and they will say pretty much the same thing. Or if you don't know any read Monkey Business, assuming it is still in print, it was a big book in my day about a couple associates' lives at DLJ (now CSFB).
Prior to my MBA I worked in private equity and we always made fun of the scum sucking Ibankers and how crappy their lives were. I came out of my MBA in an economic downturn and the only job I could land, as there was nothing in PE, was doing M&A in New York. I would not wish that sort of job on my worst enemy. All you do in elementary stuff any grade 8 could do, endless pitches, mind numbing transactions, 100 hour work weeks where you don't get to see your friends. I remember all my interviews with all the Wall St banks and it generally went one of two ways - if it was an older person they'd ask why I'd want to be in IB after working in PE and how did they know I would not just run off as soon as the economy turned better (which in truth was exactly my plan and what I did) or if a more junior banker could I introduce them to anyone I knew in PE as they'd love to switch out.
Like many I am one who is far happier outside of IB, I may not make as much as I did before, but still make a healthy package, and can actually live and enjoy my life.
For people asking about what schools to go to I quick google search would yield a list of all the regular suspects - Harvard, UPenn (Wharton), Northwestern (Kellogg), Chicago (Booth), Columbia, Michigan (Ross), Dartmouth (Tuck), MIT (Sloan), Standord, London Business School, Insead, etc, etc, etc.
Oh and if you want to be an IBanker know the difference between pure IBanking (advisory work) and Sales and Trading, Asset Management, Private Equity, Private Wealth Management. It amazes me the amount of people I have met that say they want to be an IBanker and have truly no idea what function or role an IBanker plays other than they make a lot of money (as do people in the other areas I have listed).
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tpol
17 yrs ago
MarathonHK,
Traders interact with other traders, sales people, sometimes clients of the bank if they are involved in certain structured deals, and basically anyone.
Rumours, intentions of investment direction of the big boys, information, etc are key to a trader's profit making ability.
I knew many traders who got, well, some inside information or rumour that helped them profit.
When you have no information from reliable sources, you are basically on your own and it is not easy to make big money.
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Fair question. I recently returned to HK from the US. First, you need to understand ex-pat banking jobs are typically short term (2-3 years) assignments. The primary reason for most ex-pat assignments are firms feels it cannot filled the position locally and need to relocate a candidate (at a significant cost) from head office to fill the opening on a temporary basis. Since this is the case, you will need to have special skills (technical, management, product knowledge, etc) that cannot be obtained locally to be considered for an ex-pat assignment. Good luck.
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Disagree with the short term nature of expat banking jobs - Many, many expats stay in HK for over a decade, at least that is the case in my firm.
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Agree with Philly Cheese.. It has nothing to do with temporary positions..
On the other hand, I don't think Yeungggg was looking to be an expat. I think he just meant he want an Investment Banking Job that earns 100k+.. A lot of people think only xpats get these salaries..
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I guess in average expats earn more than chinese, but there are some Chinese that earn a lot too (needless to say). I was talking about salaries in the range of 40K to 100K+, because this would be an average Ibank starting salary.
However, previous replies have mentioned couple of interesting ways to break in and I appreciate it.
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As an intern at a large bank, you'll probably start below $40k/mth. Some of the American banks may pay more, but not sure that they are able to any more. Coming in as an associate will earn you more. Discretionary bonus will make up more than 50% of total renumeration. So, if you prove yourself, you'll get paid. If you can last a few years, you'll get paid. Chinese and expat in the same position will get packages in the same region. Chinese will get more salary, expat get more housing. The only issue is that at the senior positions, it is more likely expat than Chinese. Once an expat has been here a few years, the org may localise them. Many expats accept a local package or they transfer to another office of the same Bank on expat terms and then they are filled by another expat (the circle continues). Very few expats actually leave and go back to home countries.
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^^ huh?
Interns make the same as 1st year analysts ... they're just prorated. Interns will make approx 35-40k / month + free housing ...
If you're a local hire its a different story.
I work in an IB so if you got questions feel free
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btw i'm Chinese ... and an expat - so dun say chinese vs expat lol
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ejc i think it really depends on the intern, department, etc.
i have seen interns getting paid anything between 8k - 50k/month+
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Ed
17 yrs ago
Indeed, the term expat needs to be redefined - our members are a mixture of all nationalities and races... 40% hold HK passports and I suspect many of those were educated overseas or in top universities in Hong Kong http://www.asiaxpat.com/promos/survey-results/
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You're right - I should have said local vs expat. I was refering to the post before mine, and inadvertently used that poster's term "Chinese".
Our interns are more accurately classified as management trainees. They can either be still in school and work for us during their summer break (really for free) or as part of the management trainee program. They rotate from division to division and not in a real position. Once graduated from the MT program, can then get hired into a business on permanent basis. Or some can get hired into a business directly either straight out of school or after a few years working.
EJC - If your first year staff get $35-40 + housing then you probably work in front office (either sales & trading, primary issuance, M&A or RM). Back office interns would make much less.
Front office interns are most likely to be expat (including many PRC students). China is where the growth is and a non-Mandarin speaking intern is in much less demand these days. Back office interns are most likely (dare I say, all) locals.
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