Posted by
arrigoa
16 yrs ago
Why is it that despite the new laws some people show not only disregard for the law but complete disrespect for others. I have been out a few times in the last week alone and been into more than one place (in major areas ie. Wanchai / LKF) where people continue to puff away and the management turn a blind eye! Not very encouraging of what is supposed to be Asia's world city, with the locals seemingly the worst offenders! Seems like this law will take some getting use too!
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Ed
16 yrs ago
I believe the police cannot prosecute the establishments for allowing this to happen rather they would target the offenders.
Perhaps the solution is to inform the restaurant/bar that they should ask the offenders to stop otherwise you will call the police...
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Ed is right. The way the legislation has been passed, it's the smokers, not the establishment, which can be prosecuted. Quite ridiculous actually.
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Both ridiculous and ineffective. Sadly, I am not surprised...
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Well, it's just bl**dy typical of many smokers. The laws were passed because the majority of smokers just don't care about the effect their pathetic, disgusting and health-damaging habit has on others. Absolving bar owners of the responsibility to keep their establishments smoke-free serves to illustrate the legislature's mealy-mouthed approach to this issue. I was at a bar in LKF yesterday when some idiot started smoking, but he stopped when I berated him and threatened to call the police. Next time, however, it might just result in my receiving a fist in the face. That said, next time I will just go and find a police officer. Message to smokers: you can smoke yourselves to death for all I care - don't involve others.
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I applaud people berating smokers who arrogantly disregard the ban and wish them well in their endeavor to enjoy smoke-free bars, but I also wish that there were a few hermetically-sealed (!) hostelries, staffed by smokers, that permitted punters to smoke to their hearts' content and, of course, at their peril. Smokers could congregate at these establishments and still enjoy themselves without affecting or p*ssing off anyone else.
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I did hear something though that establishments may loose there License if they fail to curtail patrons from abiding by the Law. Not sure how that is supposed to work!
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Could someone please tell me what is and is not allowed under this new law? Are smokers allowed to smoke in outside seating areas of bars and restaurants for example? Does it only cover enclosed airconditioned areas?
I am non smoker and like many others I am sick and tired of being choked by smoke in bars and restaurants.
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From my understanding it applies to all: Restaurants, bars, KTV all enclosed space. So sadly with the loophole that a outside area /patio / rear canopy is NOT included in the ban so we are not free yet from that smoke. Its crazy as some "patios" are right next to the inside anyway!
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Diego
16 yrs ago
I am not that concerned with the bars & restaurants as apart from LKF & Wanchai, it does not happen anymore.
What I hate is people smoking in the toilet (offices or shopping malls). This is disgusting.
Even the toilet cleaners let it happen.
By the time we call a company, the guy(s) would have finished their cigarettes & be long gone.
HOW can we have these stopped?
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A salutary tale. See my post above when I predicted that the next time I berated anyone for smoking, I might receive a fist in the face. Well, tonight, I did. I was in an "upscale" club in Hollywood Rd when a guy was smoking in front of me. I should have called the police but, stupidly, told him it was illegal and he knocked me to the ground with five or six punches to the face. There was a whole group of people at his table who were smoking. It must have been obvious to the staff, but it seems that no-one asked them to stop. I was told by the manager that I should have notified the staff first. After a cut nose and severe bruising to the face, I am inclined to agree. So soon after the ban was introduced, it seems that, without any responsibility on the bar/club owners, it will be honoured in the breach and not in the observance. Nothing will change unless bar owners take steps to prevent smoking. This is a major failing in the legislation. I won't berate anyone again, that's for sure - I will just call the police but, unless people do this or complain to management, nothing will change. As Arrigo hints above, bar owners risk losing their licenses if there is criminal activity on their premises so, if you object to smoking, the moral is pretty clear: DO NOT approach the perpetrator directly; complain to management or call the police, and make a note of the times you encounter smoking. Then turn up at the renewal sessions and argue against the renewal of the licence. And Dipper, it is not a questiom of hysteria, non-smokers have had to put up with second-hand smoke for too long. The new law is there for a purpose. On your reasoning, we should just revert to the pre-law situation and allow smokers to dictate where we can go for a smoke-free drink. Which basically means hardly anywhere. The law doesn't outlaw smoking per se - just in public places. Addicts can smoke to their hearts' content outside, just not inside. Is that so unreasonable?
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"I miss the old days when we used to be grown-ups and sort things out amongst ourselves rather than running to the authorities all the time."
That's not my experience. Mine is more is like foxmulder's (apart from the fist in the face). Many smokers, if asked to stop, will become rather hostile. Especially in a bar after a few drinks. No grown up behavior in sight.
Then again foxmulder, it probably would have been better to politely ask them to stop without invoking the illegal part first. Appeal to them as civilized beings. If they don't stop, they are obviously uncouth and you should talk to the management.
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well, just take a walk outside if it gets to smokey, take a nice deep breath of the fresh Hong Kong air and relax a little...maybe on the corner of Queens Rd in Central would be nice or maybe even Lockhardt Rd in Wanchai...Oh and by the way, what sort of car is it you drive?
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I think I need to change the title to "Law and Disorder" in HK it's all just smoke and mirrors!
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Ed
16 yrs ago
FM > did the management/you call the police and report this assault?
This is completely unacceptable.
A heads up to the others who have suggested physically confronting people who are smoking... remember, there is always someone tougher, and if they are not tougher they will find friends who as a collective will be far tougher. Anyone remember the report in the news some years ago about the expat male who confronted some youngsters on a ferry and insisted they stop smoking - the group jumped him and put him in the hospital...
Best to have the management break the news to smokers - if they refuse tell them you will take your business elsewhere say nothing more then call the police when you are away from the scene and inform them that there are law breakers smoking in an off limits location.
I think what HK needs here is for one person to made an example and given a substantial fine - that needs to be publicized so as to deter others.
Remember when the 1500 dollar fine was finally enforced for throwing rubbish? Prosecutions were made and the offenders got front page coverage - that let people know the authorities were serious.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
This is a serious discussion and that is not acceptable advice. Comments that encourage violence and breaking of the law will be removed.
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in the first few days a lot of bar/restaurants told papers they wouldn t ask the smoking customers to leave.. that it wasn t for them to confront them and would even give them a glass of tee (as an ashtray...). It was for the police to enforce the law..
Is it the same if you run off with the tab?
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Ed
16 yrs ago
Actually I was asking that the nonsense about second hand smoke not being harmful be posted on Think - along with the discussions about the new law.
This thread is a HK relevant topic and I'll leave it on this forum.
Anyone wanting to go off topic and debate should drop into this forum http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/
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Can I please clarify. Is it now all bars and restaurants which must be smokefree? I recall that originally there was some exemptions for so called "private" bars which appeared no different to normal bars. I was in a bar in LKF last week and there were 2 people smoking at the bar (one looked like a staff member). I just fumed quietly waving my hands around and coughing but didn't know whether I could go further if it was a "private" bar.
Thanks
SB2
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Since July1st there is no longer any exemption.
In LKF though, you ll find a few have installed tables outside right on the edge of the bar.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
The comments were not removed because they dont fit my view of the world - they were removed because they are not relevant to the discussion.
As indicated they should be submitted on THINK
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There is a Tobacco Control Office hotline, people please use it. It's not been set up to use up excess PCCW phone numbers. If there are people smoking in a bar that you are in then call them and even if they catch one person then it's better than sitting there doing nothing or getting a fist in the face. Waiting for other people to call is not going to solve anything.
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lace
16 yrs ago
evildeeds - you should have posted thenumber as well ;)
Tobacco Control Hotline: 29618823
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Hello my name is "Ausman" and I am a smoker, albeit one with some morals, I do take non-smokers into consideration before I smoke however, I think you a "breathing" a lot of hot smoke over nothing. BTW, I have also worked in hospitality for the past 22 years.
The answer is quite simple, as mentioned earlier in this thread, if you do not like/respect venue managements principles, go elsewhere, you have a choice. Unfortunately in the current economic climate business is doing it tough. Further to that, you are complaining about smoke in bars, the most lethal, dangerous, harmful and legal "drug", I think of all time, is alcohol, the very thing you are drinking in the bar. When was the last time you read " Smoker smokes full pack of cigarettes and then goes home and bashes his wife"?, Smoker has smoked 3 times over the legal limit and drives car into innocent pedestrians? you don't read this.
As I said, you have a choice, take a look at the link to the "doco" called "Flow" that was posted on this site recently, this is a topic that deserves serious thought and action in regards to the world water supply on a global scale, most of these people do not have a choice, we/you do, as mentioned , take your business elsewhere.
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The difference being that there is no "second hand drinking". If I have a cocktail the person next to me is not affected.
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<< in the first few days a lot of bar/restaurants told papers they wouldn t ask the smoking customers to leave.. that it wasn t for them to confront them and would even give them a glass of tee (as an ashtray...). It was for the police to enforce the law.. >>
Surely there is something in the law that says the management of licensed establishments should not knowingly allow illegal activities to take place on their premises? If a customer complains to the management that someone is smoking (now illegal in public bars/clubs), and they refuse to do anything about it, then they should have their license taken away.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
FLOW is indeed a brilliant documentary.
However Ausman, staying on topic, the law is the law, smoking is not allowed in bars/restaurants in Hong Kong for a reason - because cigarette smoke is a poison and it is harmful to anyone who inhales it.
If you wish to harm your body by smoking that is your choice, and there is no law preventing you from doing so - but there are now laws that protect others from your smoke.
You may certainly rant about it just as someone might rant about having to wear a seat belt but it is a pointless debate - the law is the law and it will not be changed regardless of how many smokers rail against it.
Again, I think its quite a simple matter of informing the management if someone is breaking the law by smoking. If they refuse to act step outside and make a quick call to the police and that the problem will be solved.
Does anyone know if there is a hotline to call to report law breakers or would one call 999?
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lace
16 yrs ago
Ed I posted the hotline number yesterday...
Posted by lace (1 day ago)
[ Edit ]
evildeeds - you should have posted the number as well ;)
Tobacco Control Hotline: 29618823
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Sapphire - managers who think that they need do nothing to prevent smoking since there is no criminal liabilty on them might be in for a rude awakening when licence renewal time comes up. Turning a blind eye to illegal smoking is likely to be seen as tacit encouragement. At worst, things like providing cups of "tea" as ashtrays could be seen as aiding and abetting. The law is there to protect the public from the dangers of smoking. Even if they, themselves, cannot be prosecuted for allowing smoking, at least managers can be expected to ask smokers to leave. If the police/tobacco control office receive anough complaints, they might well object to the renewal of a licence. which,of course could be an absolute disaster for the clubs/bars. Now THAT should make them sit up and take notice
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Ed
16 yrs ago
Thanks for that
Suggestion - save this to your mobile phone so that if you have a problem you can do something about it 29618823
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Been out for dinner this evening and had a lovely smoke free environment. It was good to see that establishments that normaly allow smoking had got rid of the ashtrays from their tables. Thankfully, I didn't feel the need to complain to the management about someone smoking, but if I had, I wouldn't have given it a second thought to call the number above - 29618823
If anyone has any complaints, please don't just sit back hoping someone else will sort it out .... do something about it!!
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Ed, I am not disputing the fact second hand smoke is harmful, I am saying, irrespective of any law, we have choice, if you don't like the management principles, go elswhere. I actually appreciate the law, it has been introduced in numerous countries for a long time now, I seem to spend more time in these than HK, such as UK, Aus anyway, I appreciate it, I smoke less.......
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Yes they should, go outside and smoke, I do. I am not ranting about the law, I could not give a toss either way, but why sit and moan about it.
Do you stop every car on the highway that speeds or ring the police and report their license plate, no. So, I say it again, you have choice! USE IT!. I smoke yes, do I smoke in my own house, no,I have not for 20 years, do I partake in illegal substances at parties, no I don't, do I speed (in my car),I admit, yes I do, I have choices!, I use them.
Example: I do not desire to take part in the goings on of the bars in Wanchai, simple, I do not go there.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
Sorry I cannot agree with that.
People should not have to go elsewhere just because the management does not inform people that they cannot smoke. The smokers are the ones who should be forced to stop or leave because they are the ones breaking the law.
This is no different than if someone walked into a restaurant with their kids and someone was snorting lines of coke or shooting heroin at a table (at least if someone is doing this I dont have the breath their exhaust....)
Should the family have to leave because the management doesn't report deal with the law breakers? Certainly the law breakers should be the ones to leave, or if they refuse and continue to break the law they should be arrested.
Smoking in a public place is now against the law simple as that. And the law needs to be enforced.
I would definitely not leave and I would report this to the police if the management refused to deal with it.
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What all this boils down to is this: the law is without teeth so long as bar/club owners have no legal responsibilty. They can just observe law-breakers, shrug their shoulders and say: "nothing to do with me, I'm just running a bar". Smokers will see that others are flouting the law with impunity and will follow suit. So we will be back to square one, with smokers inflicting their filthy habit on others. It is important for non-smokers to use the tobacco control hotline and, if necessary, turn up at the licence renewal sessions to object to the renewal. And all this because the pathetic legislature bottled out of doing a proper job. It didn't happen like this in the UK and smokers have just had to live with it. There are no reported cases of mass suicide of desperate smokers. In fact, many welcomed it and are pleased to find themselves smoking less.
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Oh for goodness sake! I am so tired of non smokers complaining about smokers! Yes the law was passed- Yes smokers should abide by it- Then will you quit complaining about your rights? I doubt it because non smokers are complaining about smokers who are smoking outside and they can smell the smoke in the open air. I smoke but I do try to consider other peoples feelings all the time.
Just get over it and let the proper authorities handle it. Hey and in your spare time can you berate the women who throw on tons of perfume and leave a sickening cloud wherever they go? Alot of people with allergies would thank you
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I sympathise with bar/cafe owners but they should at least ask their difficult clients to cease, after that the responsibility falls on the TCO, if the establishment asks for their help they will not be penalised. Repeated complaints against an establishment will be considered at license renewal hearings.
The Tobacco Control Inspectors of the Tobacco Control Office of the Department of Health have been conferred with powers to enforce the Smoking (Public Health) Ordinance (Cap. 371), to initiate prosecution against offences like smoking, displaying or publishing of tobacco advertisements. The general powers and duties of the Tobacco Control Inspectors under Section 15G include to:
• Enter any place in which a relevant offence has been or is being committed;
• Enter and inspect a no smoking area of a public place;
• Seize anything that appears to be evidence of any relevant offence;
• Require any person to give his name and address and to produce proof of identity if the person has committed a relevant offence;
• Take photographs, make sound and video recording for the purpose of obtaining evidence;
• Require any person to produce documents or records and make copies of such documents or records for the purpose of enforcing relevant provisions;
• Require any person to provide assistance or information as is reasonably necessary to enforce the relevant provisions.
The Ordinance also stipulates that any person, who wilfully obstructs a Tobacco Control Inspector in the performance of his duty, or who fails to give his name and address or to produce proof of identity, or who gives a false or misleading name or address, commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a maximum fine of $10,000.
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Encourage people to smoke outside in small streets, but not enough ashtrays. Our Government should follow Japan to build designated outside area for smokers that at least make the clean air for somebody.
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