Posted by
axptguy38
16 yrs ago
You could write a book on the subject. First of all, where in the US? The country is anything but homogeneous. Places like New York, Cleveland, Atlanta, LA, Miami, Kansas City and so forth are rather different culturally, although there is much commonality.
I would say that good and bad depends on what you like. I loved LA but I wasn't a huge fan of southwestern Connecticut. I really like HK.
Stress is very variable. A city like NY can serve up a lot of stress. A place like Pittsburgh, not as much. A small town in South Dakota, even less.
So first of all, where are you going in the US? ;)
Having said all that, I have found Americans to be generally very nice people. The whole "Americans are uneducated" stereotype is a bit overblown. Sure, there are such people, but you'll also find the very smart and cultured and everything in between.
Stereotyping a bit:
- Americans like to do a lot of activities during their time off. They're always off doing something.
- The corporate culture is more based on individual achievement than HK.
- Communications are more based on what is said while in HK there tends to be more subtext ("what is not being said").
- The US obviously offers more variety than HK when it comes to lifestyle choice.
- The US is convenient. You can find stuff easily at the local megastore or online.
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Americans are far far friendlier than people in Hong Kong, as a general observation. Americans care about culture and strive to live a life. Americans care about the world and want to help people from other countries. There are very very smart and eloquent Americans and there are very rustic folks too. It's a country of variety and yet a country with passion for life. Hong Kong is for people who just want to make money, talk about money and go shopping and eating. I don't know what people here do all day other than rushing from one place to the other. It's just unreal. What about personalities? What about relaxation? What do people do in this seemingly beautiful but most of the time very empty city?
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"I am just looking for a place where there is value for your private/family life. Unlike HK where people have no consideration of your own time.
I prefer to work in more friendly, casual and social environment where its all opposite."
Go to Europe, mate...Scandinavia sounds like what you need
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"Actually I am going to stay in California."
Southern or northern? California be very social, friendly and casual. A lot depends on you of course, but the quality of life can be very high.
As for Scandinavia, certainly "quality of life" is highly prized, but in my opinion the tax regime means giving up a lot of personal choice when it comes to spending, saving and retirement.
"Hong Kong is for people who just want to make money, talk about money and go shopping and eating. "
Come on now. We're not ALL like that. There is variety in HK as well. Not that I dislike shopping and eating but you make it sound like HKers are all just shallow and materialistic.
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Wow ArtinHk, that's really quite the generalization....there are many many HKers who are incredibly friendly and outgoing (once you get to know them)...certainly most people here are more reserved in public, but they are hardly all rushing from one place to another....maybe it's my circle of friends, but we (I'm not local) spend as much time as possible enjoying life with our kids, hiking, going to the beach (they aren't packed with expats btw..those are mostly locals, Ocean Park, etc and yea, eating socially (a person's gotta eata right lol!)
like axpt says, it's not ALL shallowness and money...
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"we (I'm not local) spend as much time as possible enjoying life with our kids, hiking, going to the beach (they aren't packed with expats btw..those are mostly locals, Ocean Park, etc and yea, eating socially (a person's gotta eata right lol!)"
Hey, sounds like my life lol.
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I am not just talking about local HKers. I am talking about westerners here as well. For example, my neighbors are a British couple (or wherever they are coming from since it was impossible to have a conversation with them). The wife couldn't look at me in the eye and say hello. Now I am not a heinous looking monster, or at least I hope I don't look like one. The husband was barely able to say hi to me when he saw me, which I suspect was due to the fact that he had problem speaking like a real man. It felt as though it took a lot of effort for these two people to acknowledge that they had another neighbor right next door. If I were in the US, I would have been friends with my neighbors after three days.
Another example, I am never really greeted in the morning when I see other people in the hallway or down the street. No one here knows how to say "Good Morning." Will it kill someone to say "Good Morning"? Maybe, since no one does it here.
When I hang out with locals, they like to talk about money, how to make more money, how to invest, how to make even more money so that they can buy yet another house and rent it out. Guys, this life is insane. I would like to enjoy life as I always did in the US, but I find it hard to meet people here who are not focused on MONEY. Man, sometimes it feels as though everyone here is yelling silently, "Show Me the Money!!!" The waiters in restaurants can't wait to get rid of me once I finish eating. I am a piece of garbage waiting to be thrown out of the door once they collect their money.
In America where I used to live, people like to enjoy life. We gather together and drink beer/wine/anything alcoholic and talk about junk. We go to bars/places and explore life in the big city. Here? I don't know what people do. Everyone keeps it to him/herself. I wasn't expecting to replicate life in America here. However, I wasn't expecting to experience this kind of morose emptiness.
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"Another example, I am never really greeted in the morning when I see other people in the hallway or down the street. No one here knows how to say "Good Morning." Will it kill someone to say "Good Morning"? Maybe, since no one does it here."
Around where I live most people says good morning, in the building, on the street, on the hiking trail. I live in Repulse Bay. Where do you live?
Certainly there are a few sourpusses around, even in the building. They are like you describe. They won't look in the eye and go whine to management about their neighbors, other people's helpers and whatnot. At least they give the rest of us something to gossip about. But most aren't like that, at least in my experience.
"The waiters in restaurants can't wait to get rid of me once I finish eating. I am a piece of garbage waiting to be thrown out of the door once they collect their money."
And in the US one is immediately sized up based on the probable tip. Is this better? ;) I have found service in HK to be a bit haphazard but mostly well meaning. In the US it can be quite mercenary.
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Unfortunately I live in the Midlevels, not the south side. I know that I am generalizing a bit in my post, but I honestly think that Americans are much more open and friendly than people in Hong Kong. It's a feeling of being free to do whatever you want without someone really watching over you.
In my daily interactions, I either get the docile shy smile from the locals or I get the cold stares and insolent, bland facial expressions from the westerners. I am not 25 years old so I can't really hang with the young crowds in a bar and claim that I have true friends. (I like to be Homer Simpson).
Hong Kong restaurants don't have tips except for some mandatory service charges, which in a way is great because I get to save a buck or two. But I absolutely detest the efficiency in Hong Kong restaurants. A vast majority of waiters are not friendly in Hong Kong, period. They serve you and want you to leave. What I do notice is that there is such a dire space shortage in this island that it is difficult to find public seating. Wherever I go I need to pay to sit down somewhere, be it in a coffee shop or a restaurant. There you go again with my proclaimed "show me the money!" Maybe it's because I live in the Midlevels...
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"So what advantage does USA really have over HK?"
Lifestyle, assuming you want the US lifestyle (and I use the term loosely) instead of the HK lifestyle. There's also the whole "land of the free" bit, which is perhaps looking a bit frayed at the edges nowadays.
"If I work normal 9-5 and earn a monthly income, what kind of tax planning can i have since i am not doing business where money can be hidden in offshore jurisdictions."
Don't worry. You will be able to put away money in the US. If nothing else the cost of rent, which tends to be a high part of expense, is much lower almost everywhere in the US compared to HK. But get a good tax consultant to prepare your taxes. It's very complex and time consuming. However getting it done for you is not so costly. Often the extra deductions the consultant will figure out pay for the cost. He/she will be able to tell you how to manage things.
"Whats the % of tax in USA?"
It very much depends on where you live. You will pay Federal tax (an income tax), State tax (state dependent) and local tax (city/county dependent).
For example Nevada has no taxes except on gambling and prostitution, but you'll still be paying Federal tax and maybe local tax (city taxes pay for city services like police, garbage management etc). On the other hand CT has income tax AND sales tax. Some states have only property tax instead of income tax.
You mentioned California. That state has one of the higher total tax pressures.
For the record, tax rates in the US, even in places like New York, are laughably low compared to my native Sweden, where the total tax rate between sales tax, employer contributions, income tax and the rest is around 70%.
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I'm a Norcal transplant and have never paid anywhere near 50% in taxes. A great benefit is that you can deduct property taxes and the mortgage interest on your home from your taxable income.
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iwilltry, seriously why are you taking on the US citizenship??? you will immediately have to pay US taxes on your income even you live and work in HK. i would defer taking on that citizenship as long as possible...
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Same if you have a Green Card. Global taxation is an ugly principle...
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"Americans are uneducated"
I think the stereotype has a lot of truth, in the sense that they are largely clueless about global attitudes and life. But I think what people seem to forget when they make the stereotype, is you could say the same for almost any other country, and more importantly, it has a population of 300 million plus people and only a small fraction of that which do not fall into the stereotype is big enough to make it the largest and most powerful economy and country in the world.
Immigration has changed the average person in America, it is no longer so straight forward or fair to tar everyone with the same brush. But there are large swathes of the population that have no clue that things are different and people see things differently, as is demonstrated consistently on every reality show Americas produces.
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I find the quality of life in Hong Kong is higher than in the US, and it's much safer too.
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MJ1
16 yrs ago
No one is right or wrong, it's just a matter of personal preference.
iwilltry - You can give it a try, but just be mindful, that even when you come back to HK, you still may have an ongoing US tax exposure / reporting obligation.
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beerboy...any new data since 2005 (when the Index was compiled)? i can't find any, and would doubt the relevance of the QLI post economic meltdown...
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gill2008 - I have just spent a couple of months in California (mostly San Francisco, but a little time in LA). I am not from the US or HK, so I can offer a different perspective from my observations:
Weather in SF is not what you'd expect - unusual weather patterns because of the bay mean cold summers! Otherwise quite warm to hot elsewhere in the state (at least during summer!).
Homelessness is a big problem for California. I also noticed that there are a lot of mental health problems, esp. amongst the homeless. Be prepared that you will get hounded for money everywhere you go.
Public transport is a mess when compared to HK - and is unreliable and overburdened. I felt quite unsafe using public transport in the US. Public transport (particularly buses) were dirty, graffitied and often foul-smelling.
Littering is rife - the streets (even in some of the nicer suburbs I wandered through) were strewn with rubbish. HK by comparison is very clean.
The food there, at supermarkets, was fresh and quite cheap. The meat quality was very good, fresh and also reasonably priced. A huge variety of food, but there is a heap of junk food too... watch out, or you'll quickly begin to lead a very unhealthy lifestyle.
Rent is expensive in SF (and I imagine LA), but other areas I am not familiar with. I paid US$1500/month for a 1 bedroom place.
The Craigslist website is a gem for finding things out - check it out. It is used very extensively in the US, but is rarely used in HK.
Taxes - yeah - are a pain. Aside you income tax, you must add sales tax on top of your bill (be that for food when eating out or retail purchases) so you actually pay more than an advertised price. Seems prices are all advertised without the tax included.
Tipping - also adds to your bill when eating/drinking out. Not really common in HK.
Unemployment rate is massive... I presume you have a job to go to or something worked out? At least something to consider if you have not already.
The American people - I found they were like people from any other place - some were friendly, some were rude, a whole spectrum of characters and personalities.
Quality of service at restaurants was in proportion to the expense of your meal...
The outdoors in California is just gorgeous - Yosemite National Park and the Humbolt State Park were 2 places out of SF that I got to visit - heaps of hiking and wonderful trees...
Overall - I did enjoy my time there - I definitely liked the fresh, cheap food available, the clean air, the cooler temps and lower humidity. I did not like the transport, and not having the feeling of being safe in the streets (or in the home) like I do here in HK.
Hope that helps!
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i guess that kind of shows the value of these surveys, when in one (albeit outdated) Hong Kong 'ranks' 18th in the world and 4 years later, in another one, is off the grid...take them with a grain of salt...
certainly the Mercer one looks pretty comprehensive, and likely HK's pollution, lack of cultural interest for expats (this is a survey for expats relocating after all) and high cost of living have dragged it down...
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D_Laoshi,
People don't necessarily like a place, but it doesn't mean that they can't stay here either. When I was in high school, I hated it because of the tough curriculum, but I stayed on because I had no other choice. So it is pointless to ask such a question.
You need to allow people to express their own opinions on things, including places to live and restaurants to eat. Don't tell me that you never complain about your boss or your friends. That's part of the life.
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joga
16 yrs ago
I lived it LA's south bay area as an expat and loved it. Call me fickle but I loved Hk as well. If you have children I found most people in the LA tend to choose the area they live by the catchment areas for best possible school scores (which can differ greatly) within their budget. Unlike my home Sydney where you choose area first and school second. People were very friendly and our cali experience was extremely family friendly. We were worried about crime at first but it really wasn't a problem where we lived. Air quality wasn't great but shopping was. We did lots of road trips which were great fun. I'm no tax or salary expert but I didn't notice any difference in useable income between HK and LA but I must add we were on an internal company transfer and I alway assume, maybe somewhat naively, that our company is taking cost of living into account and doing the right thing by us.
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Kea_
16 yrs ago
Be aware of the cost of health insurance in the US. If you're unlucky enough to get a job that doesn't provide you with insurance, you will have to buy it on your own and it could cost hundreds of US dollars per month. If you have any health problems to begin with, insurers might not be willing to cover you at all. There's no cheap public hospitals in the US so if you do get seriously ill and you don't have any insurance, you're screwed.
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I grew up in Asia and recently moved back, after spending 12 years in the US and am now a naturalized citizen. In the 12 years I was there, I traveled across all 50 states in the US, and spent a good chunk of time in major cities on both coasts. Driven more than 100,000 miles across the great land, and enjoyed the greatest hospitality of people, black, white, brown and yellow in the US. So unless any of you guys have had such experiences in Asia and the US before, please don't even judge the United States, cos you are so noooooooot qualified. Capiche?
You guys can love HK for all you want, but please don't trash the US. Just because you have had a bowl of wanton noodle in Chinatown don't give you any rights at all to criticize the country. And stop quoting propaganda films to trash the US, cos you know what, at least we allow them to be made. N'nuff said about the fake democracies around Asia (except India, Japan, Taiwan and Korea).
USA FOREVER!
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wow flash, you certainly read alot into gill2008s 4 opening sentences...lol...maybe he simply wants the experience of living in a different country (as I did coming here from Canada) and chose the US...personally I wish him all the best as he can have a great life there as well as here...
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"I think unless you were to live in NYC, and be paid enough to be able to really enjoy all nyc has to offer, you'd be crazy to leave HK."
Before I comment on this, let me comment on the cats who make note of California(L.A.) pollution problem..
As recorded, HK's air pollution as of 2006 is 3 times WORSE than LA, NEW YORK, PARIS, and LONDON. HK's pollution is downright terrible. What really kills me is how people smoke in these bars, then go out taking in all that terrible pollution right after..the laws here are laughable as nobody follows them..
I hope you aren't comparing NY to HK. HK isnt even close with the type of history that the city of NY carries.. Theres so much diversity and culture..here in HK, its just stuck up Europeans..
YEAH I SAID IT!! You people think you are walking on air because the locals here bow down to you!!
huff huff huff..ok..im done with my rant..
Why don't you move to the south? Atlanta is a BEAUTIFUL city..It has everything a city needs..
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"I grew up in Asia and recently moved back, after spending 12 years in the US and am now a naturalized citizen. In the 12 years I was there, I traveled across all 50 states in the US, and spent a good chunk of time in major cities on both coasts. Driven more than 100,000 miles across the great land, and enjoyed the greatest hospitality of people, black, white, brown and yellow in the US. So unless any of you guys have had such experiences in Asia and the US before, please don't even judge the United States, cos you are so noooooooot qualified. Capiche?
You guys can love HK for all you want, but please don't trash the US. Just because you have had a bowl of wanton noodle in Chinatown don't give you any rights at all to criticize the country. And stop quoting propaganda films to trash the US, cos you know what, at least we allow them to be made. N'nuff said about the fake democracies around Asia (except India, Japan, Taiwan and Korea).
USA FOREVER!"
Nobamcares just roced my life a little.
I'm glad to be here but I'll never take for granted the kind of experiences I've had with other cultures and people. Its funny at first the way people here look at others who are different to themselves and what their used to(white), but after awhile, it becomes a little sad..Lives are a bit closed in here..
Like I said, I am def glad to be here though..
LOL did someone just reference Gran Torino in their argument against the States??!? REALLY?!?!
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"You people think you are walking on air because the locals here bow down to you!!"
The locals bow down to me? Honestly, I have never noticed this. Sure, those working at my building and in other similar functions are deferential, but as I see it that is partly out of politeness, partly because their job puts them in a "service" position towards me. If I had their job I would be the one being deferential. Certainly that it what happens in the US.
"I hope you aren't comparing NY to HK. HK isnt even close with the type of history that the city of NY carries.. Theres so much diversity and culture..here in HK, its just stuck up Europeans.."
That is highly debatable. Also it only matters if you care about the history, diversity and culture.
"Atlanta is a BEAUTIFUL city..It has everything a city needs."
In your opinion. Personally I wouldn't want to live there. Everyone is different.
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"I hope you aren't comparing NY to HK. HK isnt even close with the type of history that the city of NY carries."
Perhaps it is not the gateway for 50 million or so European and other immigrants to the new world. But Hong Kong was a fishing village ceded to the British as a result of the opium wars, and annexed by the Japanese during the second world war, and ultimately transforming itself into a global financial centre.
If we used the definition of age to rate historical richness, then really New York would have a pithy history compared to London, Paris or indeed Beijing for that matter.
Hong Kong does indeed have a rich and colourful history. Its just been buried in the name of development. And the notion that it is not culturally diverse, well as far as South East Asian cities go, nearly everyone is here that I can think of.
What we don't have are what used to be immigrant ghettos from a variety of countries which later became gentrified tourist attractions.
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Although we're European, we have lived in the States for 4 years and our children are US citizens (based on their birth). We now live in Hong Kong and even though I love it dearly, I miss the States deeply. As a family with 3 young children I think HK is a great place for the short term, but in the long run we'd love to go back to the States. At this point we have no desire to return our home country. Having said all this, it's mainly personal. No country is perfect, nor the US, nor Hong Kong, nor the Netherlands, however, the US is were we felt most comfortable and most of home, the country that suited our life style best. That doesn't mean other countries suck or are better / worse, it may not be for us. We'll see what the long run will bring, so far we're enjoying Hong Kong and all is has to offer, but I do miss the States!
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I agree with aexptguy38, the States has many places of different character and lifestyles. California, due its size is similar. South of Los Angeles is very nice, but my favorite place in Cali is San Diego. It is smaller, slower pace of life.
As for a HK comparison, the urban landscape makes it entirely different. In the states, people are typically much more friendly than HK/UK (actually all of Europe) typically in public. People say good morning, etc. One thing that I really like about HK is the public transportation. One of the best ion the world. In the States, you will drive everywhere, so please disregard ALL HK driving habits, lol.
The experience is what you make of it. With regard to work, the US is still the most productive country in the world. You will need to learn their business habits, work ethic, etc. Find a mentor in your new environment and follow their lead when applicable and do not be afraid of making mistakes like the locals here are.
Hope this helps a little and enjoy the experience.
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"If we used the definition of age to rate historical richness, then really New York would have a pithy history compared to London, Paris or indeed Beijing for that matter."
I'm not comparing it to London or Paris. This IS a Hong Kong Expat website, right Digital Blonde?
..and even then, NY and its lifestyle can definitely be compared to those places. I'm not sure about Beijing, but they obviously don't have the diversity and the pros of that..
with that being said..
"Hong Kong does indeed have a rich and colourful history. Its just been buried in the name of development. And the notion that it is not culturally diverse, well as far as South East Asian cities go, nearly everyone is here that I can think of."
HK does have a strong history...and if I had worded what I said to sound as if I am denying that, then i'm wrong for that. Now here is where you've stepped back on my toes..
"What we don't have are what used to be immigrant ghettos from a variety of countries which later became gentrified tourist attractions."
I can see you've never been to NY. If you have, it was probably to hang around Manhattan right? Time Square? The Village? You probably thought you were something when you went through Chinatown and Little Italy or when you bought something hip in Williamsburg..Please don't talk about a place you've never lived. I am comparing two cities. HK and NY.
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As dcnoble says, it varies. The US is a big country with lots of people. I love America. I also hate America. It's that kind of place. It provokes strong emotions in most. It has almost "everything". The corollary is that you can FIND almost anything you would want in terms of lifestyle, from hippie communes in the New Mexico desert to deeply religious little hamlets in the South to border towns in Idaho where the main street is also the runway (true!) to world cities like New York to enclaves of the rich like New Canaan, CT. That is America's greatness. The sheer diversity. If you don't like one place, move to another that suits you better.
Incidentally, a "let me do what I want in my town" attitude is something that most Americans prize, which is why there has been all this hubbub about big government in the past decade.
"(you'll be amazed at how fast a grocery store check-out can be if you normally shop at Park n Shop!) "
Your results may vary. ;) I find the local Wellcome ladies lightning fast and so nice compared to the surly robots in the grocery stores in Southwestern CT. Then again in Orange County, California, all the cashiers were really nice and also quite fast. But this just goes to illustrate my point about the US being diverse.
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I am from California and very well traveled - lived in HK for the last 5 years. I have to say many places in California could be considered the best places to live in this world.
Enjoy. IT is always a great experience to live somewhere new.
That said, I am thinking it is almost time to pack up and move back to my beach life in the OC.
Out.
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Will you judge a person without knowing them? Will you judge a place without experiencing it? Choose carefully how you judge and know well its subject. Study more and judge less. It will serve you well.
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petej
16 yrs ago
I have lived in HK for over 15 years, moved to Pasadena 2 years ago and have just moved back to Hong Kong.
1. The Chinese food and grocers in Arcadia (LA suburb) are better than in Hong Kong, even the weekday Dim Sum is cheaper and just as good.
2. Almost all US cities are huge, live close to work or pay the price in lifestyle. LA commutes can be upwards of 2 hours one way on a Friday.
3. Total tax burden in California is onerous and rents can be nearly as high as HK. Ran a "take home pay" model and HK is far more profitable, easier to save money.
4. Living in the US is boring, nobody goes out ex. Manhattan, Las Vegas strip, and Hollywood areas. Everyone stays home and watches hours of innocuous TV.
5. The grass however IS greener and the air cleaner over there.
So, depends on what you like but I'd always recommend giving it a try.
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pete...good thing you don't believe in generalizations either...
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