TiVo or DVR in Hong Kong?

Hello,


I'm a student at UC Berkeley in California, USA working on a class project exploring whether or not a company like TiVo should expand into other markets. I'm looking at Hong Kong.


In case you're not familiar, TiVo is an American company that makes a DVR - basically, it allows you to record/pause TV onto a hard drive. The "secret ingredient" is that you can say "please record all new showings of MyFavoriteShow" and it'll automatically work like magic.


TiVo is available in Taiwan, and people there love it.


I don't think it is available in Hong Kong, but I haven't been there in a few years (and I can't read Chinese). I figured you shoppers would know.


Some questions:

1. Well... is TiVo available there? It shouldn't be! Maybe via grey market?


2. How do most people watch TV in Hong Kong? Antenna? Cable? Satellite? FIOS/IPTV?


3. If it is cable or satellite, do you know how much people pay per month?


4. Do people own DVRs in Hong Kong? If so, are they hard drive based or DVD based? Any brands that you think are popular?


Thanks!

1. Well... is TiVo available there? It shouldn't be! Maybe via grey market?


No.


2. How do most people watch TV in Hong Kong? Antenna? Cable? Satellite? FIOS/IPTV?


I'd say Antenna and Cable are the prevalent distribution methods.


3. If it is cable or satellite, do you know how much people pay per month?


A few hundred Honkies will get you a wide range of cable channels.


4. Do people own DVRs in Hong Kong? If so, are they hard drive based or DVD based? Any brands that you think are popular?


No idea.





The issue with the HK market is that few providers control all the media and distribution. For example PCCW has phone, cell phone, Internet and TV in a large share of the market. A provider like that will typically discourage things like TiVo and DVRs since it runs contrary to the business model.

I Cable and NOW are two very different systems...one is traditional cable TV, (hence the name), the other is IPTV


I would suggest that most people here access their TV through IPTV, mostly NOW Broadband. Here's a little fact sheet put out by OFTA that spells out the world-leading penetration of IP based media distribution here...


http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/factsheets/docs/telecommunications.pdf


Also, most DVR's sold here are probably hard drive based.

Thanks. Do you know what the most popular DVRs are?

"2. How do most people watch TV in Hong Kong? Antenna? Cable? Satellite? FIOS/IPTV?


I'd say Antenna and Cable are the prevalent distribution methods."


I thought Hong Kong's equivalent of FIOS, NOW was the dominant distribution method, but then I would have a very skewed outlook. It is highly possible that the majority rely on cable, antenna was ubiquitous prior to the introduction of cable and IPTV, so that is par for the course.


Basically my answer to the OP's question in my opinion would be that hard drive based DVR's would be a game changer in Hong Kong as it has been in every other developed market.


There is obviously a major reason why NOW and Cable have resisted the idea of offering compatibility with the product, which I believe is a requirement if the company wants a fully functional product (it could probably be hooked up, but I am guessing it would be fraught with issues) and why TiVo does not have an offering in Hong Kong.


I couldn't tell you what the reason is, but I can tell you that Hong Kong company's tend to embrace innovation, and if they have been ambivalent towards either making or adopting the necessary changes to their technology to ensure full compatibility with a DVR product, then there is probably a good reason, which only they can tell you. It won't be in my view because of cost, and the ability to support a DVR is an obvious sales and marketing tool to first mover.


My opinion differs from funbobby, I personally think most DVR's in Hong Kong sold would be DVD based, primarily because I think that kind are the most interoperable in the absence of service provider approval.


You can actually set up DVR using a computer with large enough storage space, which is the equivalent of a hard drive based DVR, and that capability has never required service provider approval, but I looked at it about a year ago, and granted a lot may have changed since, but from what I read, it was quite hit and miss, and the recommended version was DVD based.


I am no technology expert, and I have never done it either, so I am happy to be told differently, just relaying the message I got when I looked at it.

"I thought Hong Kong's equivalent of FIOS, NOW was the dominant distribution method, but then I would have a very skewed outlook"


You are correct. Brainfart on my part. NOW TV is of course FIOS. ;)

Actually, NOW's IPTV and I-Cable are virtually dead even in subscribers, with NOW rising rapidly compared to I-Cables slower growth...by year end it likely won't even be close...

http://www.dailyiptv.com/news/iptv-hongkong-pccw-041906/

Funbobby,


The answer why there isn't a DVR for NOW to me, seems to lie in that piece. NOW developed its own set top box, so I expect compatibility is a key issue, equally important. you cannot switch channels on your set top box, it gets done at the exchange, and cannot carry more than one channel.


Most DVR's allow you to record at least two channels simultaneously, and even watch a recorded program whilst you are doing that. NOW have a set up where that is not possible, and only one channel at a time can be viewed, to protect against piracy.


surely though, every other service provider who does offer it would suffer the same issue.

i wasn't offering an answer to the DVR question at all, simply the question of how do most people receive thier TV...


i suspect as compression rates increase, a way will be found to stream multiple channels to ones home simultaneously...let's wait and see...

I know you weren't man, I was simply pointing out that an answer to the question I myself have wondered about, lay in that article.


I have no idea how IPTV actually streams or broadcasts, seems a little odd it wouldn't be in MPEG 2 or MPEG 4, given how people receive their television.


I know satellite set top boxes with DVR capability convert their signal into either of those formats, making it possible to record, seems odd that NOW would have spent all the money setting up IPTV and then use a different standard.


Probably some technology thing beyond my understanding going on there.

I have no doubt that NOW could offer a box that records. However advertisers tend to put up roadblocks, since as soon as you have such a box, it takes about 2 minutes until it is hacked so you can skip the commercials.


Typically the limitations are economic, not technical.

I don't think advertisers globally have been to keen on TiVo, because in America anyway, where there has been significant penetration, users have been forwarding through the ads, so a thrity second commercial turns into a 3 second one, and they aren't very happy about that.


I think eventually someone will do it in Hong Kong and gain first mover advantage, because it really does change one's viewing habits. I had it for about a year when I lived outside of Hong Kong, and unless it was a sporting event, I rarely ever watched "live" television.

OFTA's mind set here currently will not allow something like TIVO, but it would be very nice to see that change. There is better TV in third world countries than what HK has to offer at a fraction of the price.

is it really because of the regulator? I had no idea that was the case, seems really silly on their part, bit hard to regulate when anyone with a computer can set a DVR up if they try hard enough, all be it with mixed results.


Still when has it ever been the rule for regulators to behave sensibly.

While anyone can set up such a system, very few do unless it is pre-packaged.

the bottom line is that right now it's not technically possible to stream two channels through the line into your flat at the current compression with the current bandwidth...of course you can set up a DVR to timeshift one channel at a time if you want, but to truly make use of a TIVO-like experience, the limitations on transmitting the stream will have to be eliminated first

I don't think it is possible to simultaneously watch or record two channels unless there is service provider approval.


Certainly IPTV has the capability, because FIOS have DVR's. Though they are much maligned.


When I say anyone can hook their computer up, I mean it is simply possible to hook up your television connection to a TV through a computer rather than a monitor, and record what you are watching, and even then it is not fully reliable, and is a serious pain in the behind.


Theoretically anyone with a computer could do it, but in practice as said by axpt, few would, because doing so requires a level of competence, which quite frankly I am not prepared to learn.


To be able to TiVo, or simultaneous record two programs actually requires two connections hooked up to the DVR's set top box, at least that is the way my Sat TV used to do it, I had one dish, and two connections from the dish hooked up to the set top box. Whether that is the case with cable or IPTV I don't know.


Basically the way DVR's are set up is they need the ability to record one show whilst the user can either watch another show whilst recording another channel or do both and watch a recorded program on the hard drive whilst doing so.


Otherwise the user is seriously constrained if he or she starts channel flicking and they would not be really much better than a VCR, which requires the channel to be set first on the AV channel before recording can take place.


Actually if you think about it, if they could not simultaneously record, then they are worse than VCR's, because you can set a VCR to your AV channel, and then flick.


I'd have to agree with axptguy38, in the sense I doubt it is technical, and probably more economic as to why they are not available in Hong Kong for NOW, either that or as kneworld said, the regulator has laid down the law.


Whatever, it is a bummer, I had one for a year, and the way one consumes television, or at least I did anyway completely changed.


Going forward televisions are having processors built in with internet connectivity, and DVR's are really hard drives, so there is no reason for them not to exist on the cloud, rather than on top of, or underneath your television, and I expect people to consume television as video on demand. Netflix has already started this kind of service and is now offering movies on demand, either through play station or through a device.


Other than serious protest from US network television, who produce most shows currently and are a very serious lobby, I see no reason. Though even that is changing and there has been a shift to cable channels producing shows.


But beyond institutional rigidity, there is no reason for that shift not to occur.


I expect the internet to change to a bouquet of paid for content from the ISP, like subscription cable or even IPTV, but where print and television bundles are bundled or subscribed too, with some part of the fee being paid as royalties going to content owners.


People will be able to watch or consume whatever programs when they want to, rather than when they are broadcast, and have access to a number of print publications.


Some may deride that as being fanciful, but I had a DVR, and I started downloading torrents, and ten years ago, if you told me my television viewing would shift to the way it has, from cable and antenna, I would have thought you were joking.


Obviously there are piracy issues, but people didn't pirate music because they weren't prepared to pay for it, it was due to a lack of available legal options to buy music, again due to institutional rigidity and lack of foresight.


Personally my opinion is that in the developed world, people are prepared to buy content, so long as it is affordable or reasonably priced. Though obviously that means different things to different people.


In the end, in say ten years, I doubt there will even be any need for TiVo or DVR's. It will all be on the cloud, subscription based and on demand.


Which is probably the reason behind Comcast wanting to buy NBC from GE. Going forward there will need to be vertical integration or content owners and distribution platforms on their own, will face an existential threat.

Wow, lots of great discussion here. Thanks!


>>OFTA's mind set here currently will not allow something like TIVO


That's an interesting comment. Can someone help me understand what this means? What is the OFTA's philosophy?

my point is, if you rely SOLELY on IPTV (NOW) for your input, at the moment you won't be able to 'TIVO' in the widest sense...of course if you have both cable and IPTV, you could record one while watching the other, or "TIVO" as usual with only the cable (as cable/SAT operates in a completely different manner in terms of distribution than IPTV in that all channels are sent to your home simultaneously, and your STB sorts out what you are watching,while yout IPTV box REQUESTS the content from the service provider and this SINGLE channel is sent thru the pipe to your home...) BUT when it becomes possible to compress and send multiple IPTV channels to your STB a la cable, then the whole game changes...


although as DB says, cloud based distribution will likely happen in the not to distant future, rendering this whole discussion moot.

In answer to OP's question 1, in fact, there is a home-grown TIVO-like system sold here:

http://www.magictv.com.hk/hk/

As an ex-TiVo user all I can say is - BRING TIVO TO HK!!!