Posted by
Welshy
15 yrs ago
Hi everyone!
We are a married couple living in Wales (UK) and would really appreciate it if those of you who have moved from a Western Country to HK would give us your pros and cons of living in HK.
I work in civil engineering and would love to work in HK for the experience, work experience and career progression. My wife works in banking and at the moment can't see the positives of living in HK, everything that she mentions is negative. I have been to HK 3 times but she hasn't been yet. I definately think we would have to visit HK so she can experience it before we could think of moving there.
All comments would be greatly appreciated! Many thanks
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Thank you for your post madtown and your honesty.
"If you are talented and ambitious, the sky is the limit over here. Even if you are semi-talented and semi-ambitious you can do well."
This is the main reason that I would like to work there and the money is a big bonus to that. I am trying to keep my eyes open about this potential move and dont want to go into something with rose-tinted glasses. I know its not a utopia.
But i think that if we went there and after say 2 years we'd decided we'd had enough and it wasn't for us, the curiosity will have been satisfied and in 20 years I wouldn't be sitting there thinking, "What if..?"
You're still there, are you an expat? Whats keeping you there?
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It doesn't have to be bad for marriage. I know plenty of people with no issues. I haven't really observed that it is any better or worse for marriage than any other place, but that's only my observation.
The air is dirty, yes. But if you ask different people you'll find it affects them in different ways. Some find it horrid and some hardly notice. Objectively though, the air quality is not great.
It is a lovely place in many ways. But you have to accept crowding. Personally I never liked living in a house in the outskirts of town anyway. I'd much rather have neighbors close by and I like living in a busy place.
Move here. If you like it, you can stay. If not, you can always move back and you'll be richer for the experience.
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I must respond if for no other reason than to give you another more positive perspective on Hong Kong, which by the way is also how everyone I know feels about living and working here.
My husband and I arrived in Hong Kong 16 years ago expecting to stay about 4 years. Sixteen years later, we are permanent residents, own a home, and feel incredibly grateful to not only be in Hong Kong, but to be a part of this economically and culturally vibrant corner of the world. There is nothing about Hong Kong we don't absolutely love.
As much as Madtown feels living in Hong Kong is tough on marriage, I feel completely the opposite. If we had stayed in our home countries, life would have been far less interesting, and as a result would have possibly added stress to our marriage. As it is, our life here is greatly enriched, giving us a more positive attitude towards life and towards each other.
And yes, there is air pollution. But is it so bad that it will make us leave? No. There's not much to say about it other than that no one is happy about it. Today however was a beautiful day -- clean air, nice breeze, not too hot, not too humid. A perfect day.
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Absolutely agree with Cucaracha - all good! BUT and it is a very big BUT the air - it is filthy!! It's bad bad bad and anyone who tells you otherwise is in denial. Think very hard about comming here if you have children as goodness knows what the health effects especially long term will be on them.
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Pro's
Money ( as others say you can really ramp up your nest egg here)
Low tax
Ability to zip off and explore Asia every weekend
Global food culture
No Chavs, crime or violence
Great nightlife
Great lifestyle, boating, hiking etc
Beaches
Weather is hot most of the year
Melting pot of cultures and people
Great shopping
Con's
Far away from family, we don't have such a close family feeling here with friends as you would with your actual family
Pollution and allergies are bad
Very crowded and in your face everyday
High density living which can be stressful at times
Food and everyday items are more expensive (Western things anyway)
Expected to work longer hours here, work life balance can sometimes get skewed
Some things to think about
If you do decide to come over you should try and get a role that pays your housing as accomdation of a standard you would want to live in and would be comparable to what you have in the UK can be very very expensive.... sky's the limit really up in the thousands of pounds a month region
Do a stint here first, spend some time experiencing HK before you make the move
Your wife probably needs to visit before she can pass judgement... there is a lot more to HK that the skylinbe that you see on travel programs
Hope that helps
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Good summary Jupiter105.
I would add the thing that has most affected our lifestyle in a positive way:
- Ability to hire domestic help for a relatively low cost. A real game changer. Gourmet meals every day. Fantastic child care when we can't be there. Apartment is spotless.
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People, you have all been awesome with your posts. This post has definately been my most successful and useful to date.
My wife and I have read through all your comments and we have decided to visit Hong Kong within the next couple of months so that she can see it for herself.
In the mean time I am attempting to make contact with as many companies as possible, when we are there I would like to visit companies when we're there.
I don't know if we have exhausted this topic or not! We would welcome any comments anyone would have to add.
Would anybody be able to give any advice for networking to improve chances of meeting people?
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"If you drive, these guys are nutters, expect to get undertaken/cut up by trucks, buses, motorbikes."
In my opinion, HK traffic is pretty chilled out, especially compared to Rome or Athens. Speeds are pretty low and drivers are, on average, rather defensive, meaning they're happy to stay in their lane. Taxis are the exception, but at least they're predictably "rude". Situational awareness is unfortunately low. I have driven in much more intense environments.
"Locals pushing in front of you, a lot of that is a personal space thing but I can assure you that some of these guys are just damn rude! Just tell them to get back behind you and they'll comply!"
True. Also lots of people meander slowly along sidewalks. A quick glare or short exclamation works wonders.
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KoMo
15 yrs ago
Just to add another perspective on things - my husband and I moved here 2 years ago from Australia and we both love it. We had never lived overseas before, let alone been to HK, but thought we would do it as a bit of an adventure, and whilst our daughter was still young. You didn't mention if you have children? We came here with our then 7 month old and also had a second child here. From a family perspecitive, our only main negative is the pollution. It has concerned me greatly, especially in recent times, especially as my kids seem sick ALL the time. I have spoken to the doctor in great detail though with has soothed the nerves slightly (ie, that pollution can't really be blamed). On the upside though, we do love many of the pros that have been listed above, for example, having domestic help. My husband and I have a social life and can go out when ever we like. Our apartment is permanently clean and we don't have to do dishes or ironing (BONUS!). I also have become accustomed to apartment living. We live in a large complex so we have met so many friends and kids here which we love too. My children love it here, and so do we, but we do feel it is likely to not be a long term move.
For someone who asked about whether we would have moved if we were being paid the same as Australia. The answer would be no. Mainly, due to the high rental we pay. We love being conveniently close to Central, and don't want to sacrifice that. But with that comes large rental. If this wasn't subsidised by my husbands employer, I don't think we would enjoy it to the same degree, as we wouldn't be able to live where we do.
Good luck, I think it is definitely worth a visit and serious consideration.
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"The hiking, the beaches, the nightlife?? Come on. What nightlife? Spend a weekend in NY or London and tell me Hong Kong has nightlife. Little in the way of live music or stage production (opera's, musicals) etc. Unless you consider Wan Chai or LKF nightlife? Beaches? sure there are beaches, but if you like beaches they are not great. Just about everywhere in the world has better beaches than here. Hiking? Again, there are some nice hikes, but almost anywhere else is better. You are breathing filth."
I'll be the contrarian here. What if you don't go to the theater or opera or musicals? I'm not much interested in that stuff, so it makes no diff to me. Obviously people like different things. Beaches are hardly tropical paradise class, but they're certainly better than anything in London (heh), and just outside downtown. Hiking: I can't understand how you can say "almost anywhere else is better". Name one major city in the world that has as scenic and well maintained trails practically within the city limits. The trails here are amazing and you don't have to drive an hour or three to get to them.
Re: pollution. Yes it is bad, but plenty of kids cough and have asthma elsewhere. It's not ALL pollution. In the case of our daughter's chronic cough it was something else and easily remedied. I'm not saying the air is healthy, just that it's not to be blamed for everything.
If we were paid the same somewhere else (factoring in rent), we might well still live here. The lifestyle suits us very well. The kids have friends very close at hand. The schools are great (and not as costly as private schools in the UK and US). Our helper is wonderful and has changed our lives for the better in many ways big and small.
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Welshy -
"My wife and I have read through all your comments and we have decided to visit Hong Kong within the next couple of months so that she can see it for herself."
Just wanted to add, my husband and I visited HK for a holiday when we were living/working elsewhere in Asia, and although we had a wonderful time, I did make that comment that I would never, ever, want to live here. A couple of years later my husband was offered and job here, and we've now been here for 10 years with no intentions to go back to the UK. It took time for me to settle, probably a good 6-12 months, but I wouldn't want to leave now, and both of our kids who have grown up here (now at university in UK) refer to HK as 'home' and neither of them want to stay in the UK long-term.
What I'm trying to say is keep an open mind. Give it a go ... if you don't settle, or you don't like it, you can always go back to the UK. As you said yourself, if you don't try it out you'll always wonder 'what if ......'
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Contrary to madtown's 'litter everywhere' remark, whenever we have visitors from the UK, which is quite often, everyone always remarks how clean and 'litter free' HK is in comparison the UK.
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ceeh
15 yrs ago
Hi Welshy.
You mentioned you work in Civil Engineering. Do a bit of homework before you come over into what salaries are being paid in Engineering here now.
Big contracts are being won here by Foreign companies but the workforce employed will more and more be local hire. Companies are steering away from Expat packages as the margins now are getting tighter and tighter leaving no room for the packages as in the past. You will still see Expats in the top positions but top positions only.
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Agreed with cara. Culture is not just comedy clubs, opera, jazz clubs musicals... Just because a city has "culture" as defined by you doesn't make it better for any random individual. Personally I couldn't care a hoot about many of those things. In other words, their absence doesn't affect MY quality of life. I like to have a drink or dinner with a view. HK couldn't be better from that respect. So maybe I'm boring. ;)
"(the one thing all those restos have in common: overpriced food of hum-hum quality)"
I will agree that many restaurants are a bit cookie cutter, but there are quite a few stars out there. Also there are many very interesting local restaurants.
"Just wanted to add, my husband and I visited HK for a holiday when we were living/working elsewhere in Asia, and although we had a wonderful time, I did make that comment that I would never, ever, want to live here. A couple of years later my husband was offered and job here, and we've now been here for 10 years with no intentions to go back to the UK. It took time for me to settle, probably a good 6-12 months,"
We had the exact same experience. After two weeks, my wife was horrified at what she "had done" to the family by moving. After 4-6 months, she didn't want to leave.
"And as for litter (saphire), it is everywhere, except for the areas that have cleaning ladies. Any area in Hong Kong that is not routinely cleaned, will become a trash site in a matter of days. I'm guessing that your guests remarked about how clean the trains and malls are? "
Quite true. Hopefully in the long run the "clean HK" campaigns will have some effect.
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ry167
15 yrs ago
Madman, for your information, both Green Day and Bocelli performed right here in Hong Kong. I would say that Hong Kong gets it's fair share of big time artists and performers. Just the other day I went to see the Broadway hit "Chicago". This just goes to show, Hong Kong has a good mix of everything. It may not always be available but let's face it this is not New York, this is HONG KONG.
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hey madtown try googling the following phrases:
underground hong kong
jazz in hong kong
hong kong philharmonic
punchline comedy hong kong
make an effort to explore the local culture (btw..the 'filipino cover bands' remark shows the depth (or lack thereof) of your exploration into the music scene here...)
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HK nightlife may be dull for you. I'm fine with it. Different strokes.
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Madtown -- I wish you a lot of luck in reaching your financial goal so you can move on. You have repeatedly (8 comments) made it very clear how you feel about living in Hong Kong. It must be terrible to be stuck in a place you don't like just so you can make enough money to leave. I say forget the money. Find a place you actually like. Hong Kong is clearly not for you.
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I think there is enough going on in HK to please most people - just take a look at the listings in HK Magazine. However, I agree with Madtown to the extent that something appears to be missing. You can't compare with London, Tokyo, Seoul, NY and Paris because this is Hong Kong and to be frank, why does it need to imitate? The problem lies with the high rents and the concentrated city and entertainment centres. Yes, you could set up a theatre in Kwai Chung but who is going to turn up? People are only willing to travel for really big names and many of the venues are sterile and uninspiring such as the HK Exhibition Centre and Asia Expo. The HK Performing Arts Centre in Wan Chai is a pain to get to - definitely pedestrian unfriendly.
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Well, at the end of the day, the original poster is not thinking of moving from the likes of London, Tokyo, Seoul, NY, or Paris ... He's thinking of moving from Wales. No disrespect, I love Wales. I'm just trying to say that in comparrison, the original poster may find the culture, the locals, entertainment, and the general lifestyle here in Hong Kong to be interesting, exciting, challenging, and above all, worth the move, whether it be for a couple of years or longer ... it's all about experiences, and if you can earn a decent wage at the same, then why not give it a go ........
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When I posted this topic I had no idea it would have the response it's had. It has unintentially caused a little conflict too. Every contribution though has been very interesting and a useful insight.
I have been to HK three times and think that it is awesome. My opinion is that is has a nice balance of western and oriental culture that makes it a pretty unique place to live, the only place that i have been to which as a heavy western influence is Singapore. For me, HK would be an awesome experience for my wife and I.
We do want to give it a go, we may well find its not for us but we wont know til we try it. Its no doubt quite different to live and work there than it is to holiday there.
I'm getting the impression from my the lack of response to my job applications that its not going to be easy getting a job! Not deterred though.
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KoMo
15 yrs ago
Welshy, my husband is the director of a large recruitment agency here and he has been speaking to my brother a lot recently who wants to transfer here as well (my brother is in architecture/interior design). I have heard them talking and at the moment, many companies are unlikely to consider many people whilst they are overseas. So maybe you will get some better luck when you come for your holiday by actually being here.
Good luck! As mentioned earlier, we love HK and as a 33 y.o. I also love the culture, night life and convenient lifestyle that HK provides.
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Welshy worth trying some of the larger construction companies such as Draguage (french one, hope I spelt it correct)
They have recently won some major contracts in the city with the new MTR projects and a new spangly cruise ship port at the old airport
I say go for it.. I love HK have been here 8 years and would stay here for another 8 given the chance
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cd
15 yrs ago
Hi Welshy.
I am a Brit and have been living in HK for 13 years. Arrived with 3 kids, have since had 2 more here. As a family we love HK and consider it home, do not want to go back to the UK.
For the most part I disagree with Madtown, we are not here for the money, we do not manage to save on our income, and are not much better off than we would be in the UK, but our quality of life is so much better here than it would be in the UK. Life is different, spare time is spent mainly watching the kids sporting events, at the pool, or sometimes the beach. HK has beautiful beaches, the nicest only accessible by boat or a long hike, but worth the effort.
I don't agree that HK is bad for marriages, most people I know are still with their spouses, most have been in HK at least 10 years. As to the social scene, I think HK has a great nightlife, and because we have a helper, which means a babysitter on hand, then my husband and I actually get to enjoy the nightlife, something that would rarely happen in the UK due to the high cost of babysitters.
The pollution is bad, but as a family we don't find it affects us, and we still spend a lot of time outdoors. I have a high risk child who has suffered lots of ill health, asthma, allergies etc in the past, his health is 100 % better in HK.
Cost of food is comparable to the UK, apart from dairy products. If you buy locally its much cheaper, many things are cheaper here than the UK.
Driving is easy, as long as you know where you're going, road signs not always great. don't give you much notice.
Schools are good but expensive if you go to ESF or International.
HK is a safe city for bringing up kids, its great for teenagers, they get far more freedom than they would in the UK, there are less drug, alcohol issues here with teens. (talking western/international kids here as they're the ones I know most)Most are heavily involved in sports/drama/music. Note I'm not saying that drugs and alcohol problems don't happen, they do, but a lot less than the UK.
Definitely come and give it a go, but would suggest that try and only take a job with a housing allowance, and schooling. There the 2 biggest outgoings.
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cd, you summed up my feelings exactly. Quality of life in HK is way better than we had in Europe or the US as long as you can afford the housing and schools. We spend much more of our free time doing "free time stuff" as opposed to maintaining our house and garden, cleaning and other chores. We feel that our kids are in a safe environment. We do go out. We have time for hobbies.
It's funny how there seems to be a somewhat schizophrenic view of HK among expats. I very often hear the "bad for marriage, only for money, crap culture" argument but our experience and that of our friends is completely different. It's like we live in two different cities.
I think it boils down to the fact that what you get out of HK is somewhat dependent on your expectations, lifestyle and, though I hate the expression, "lifestyle stage".
BTW the pollen in the last 10 days or so has affected me WAY more than any pollution in my 3 years here.
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merm
15 yrs ago
Nightlife: generally boring with too many people trying to look hot. Most people look like they're enjoying more being seen than with friends. The 'nicer' clubs all have passable music and Southeast Asian bouncers who seem to detest expat bankers and the locals. Results: Dragon i looks like New Delhi and Prive looks like Guangzhou. Something i and some of my friends find hard to comprehend is that these bouncers are not security people, decide personally whether they'll let you in or not and often they turn you away with a triad like attitude (especially Prive) and when it's 4 they go home to sleep in a bunk bed in a tiny room in Wanchai.
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Yes I agree.
On the marriage thing, it really depends on how the family deals with it. For example, the common expat practice of the wife taking the kids back "home" for 2-3 months over summer while the husband stays and works (and maybe plays). If that's not hard on marriage, I don't know what is. But it's not really HK's "fault". In our case, we stay together as a family. Otherwise, what's the point of being a family?
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I'm with cara on that one.
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Only for the non-whiners out there, here’s a taste of what’s on this month (in no particular order):
• Chicago , Vagina Monologues, Tuesdays with Morrie etc
• Mika, Usher (admittedly Macau, closer than the Asia expo place)
• Trafik, Merriweather Deer, Cats on Fire (and others) etc
• Natalie Cole, Simply Red, Slash, M blah bah (not the band etc)
• Comedy shows: Bernadette Pauley and Dan Rookwood
• World Cup events
• Dragon Boat races next Wed
• Do your own art walk sober
• Eat local (that is what HK is really know for, its food)
I think no one invites the whiners so that means they think nothing is on or nothing is good enough. We ain’t NYC, London or Beijing, but for a non-capital city we seem to be doing just fine.
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vak
15 yrs ago
Mad town, I am not sure how you made such an assesment .
If we were to count 100 of our friends (95% expats) from the past 28 yrs in HK, I could safely say that about 5% in that group are divorced or remarried. That could have been the case anywhere in the world. The rest of the 95% are just hardworking expats raising families like they would anywhere else. As an EXPAT you need to work a lot harder and put in longer hours now than say 15 years ago . The gravy train days by default are well and truly over. And that is also true (working long hours) for EXPATs working in the govt.
The scene was very different in the 80's. Most (British Expats) were Civil servants. Majority in the HK Police, ICAC, ASD etc. Life was easy and people had plenty of time on their hands. You would finish work at 5.30 and be anywhere in 10 minutes.
I would say the no of expats on their second innings would have been close to 30-40% then and HK was indeed a graveyard for EXPAT relationships. Things changed drastically in the mid 90's when aggressive localisation began.
As a statistic, (at least the people we see around us as a family) I would say 80% are in the age group of 40 to 55 and mostly been married for 5 to 20 yrs. Friends and families who used to meet twice a week now meet 3-4 times a year. Everyone is busy with raising their own families. Weekdays just vanish and weekends become all the more precious.
Not sure if any other long term residents feel the same about the change in lifestyle over the years.
In terms of this original string, We would still not be ANYWHERE else than here.
NO political boundaries/disputes to be worried about , kids roaming about freely on beaches/shopping malls without you having to look over their every move, cosmopolitan upbringing for the kids etc etc.
At the end of the day you make your own list of boxes and tick what is on offer from which city/country you wish to make home. In our case HK offers 8 out of 10 from our list of boxes so its certainly home. We have no plan B.
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vak
15 yrs ago
madtown, you may hv some valid points in terms of a family support structure being more readily available in case of problems in your home base but we found in our case the friends filled that gap.
Contrary to what people's perception of locals here being selfish/rude etc etc , our experiences have been mostly good. Maybe we were just plain lucky.
Every year a 70 yr old local villager in our village ( riddled with arthritis) climbs a hill to visit us and give our 6 yr old a lai see packet for Chinese N year . That is the sort of human nature we find is missing in most places now. He has nothing to do with us or gain from us. He is just a village elder who we wish good morning whenever we see him on the road. He speaks no English. We speak no Cantonese.
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Do bear in mind HK work ethics mean long working hours = less family time especially in the Engineering field.
If your wife is working then she will most probably be working long hours too.
The culture shock is great and hits you straight away is the hardest part of living in HK
do you have any kids?
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