School Yard Mishap

Last November my son was involved in a playground accident which resulted in his classmate being injured. Today the parents called us up and said pay us some ridiculous amount or they will go to the police. They said they have already consulted with police and the boy is facing charges as a juvenile.


The story is, while playing on the play ground the kids were throwing balls around and my son got hit in the head with a ball he is 10 years old (P5). The ball was thrown by a classmate a girl same age. My son was angered (quick to anger) and ran over and pushed her. She fell down and landed awkwardly on her wrist and cracked a bone in her wrist which required a soft cast for a week or so. This is the first incident in 3 years of attending this school where our son has acted out like this. He is not perfect not many kids his age are but he is a good kid for the most part.


Has a parent we were shocked, concerned and quite upset with our boy and disciplined him for this schoolyard mishap. The school also suspended him.



The next day we were asked to come to school to meet the parents of the young girl. In the meeting the parents of the young girl were quite angry, and were convinced that they should call the police and have our son arrested and jailed (if possible). We asked that they not involve the police and that we handle this amongst ourselves. After a long bit of a bilingual translated exchange we struck common ground. We offered to help with any additional medical costs which are a result of this accident. As they had said not only is this a hardship for their daughter but it was going to cost them money too. So we felt it was the right thing to do to offer to cover the costs above and beyond the insurance charges as they related to this accident.



The school has always wanted to stay out if this and definitely did not want to have police involvement.



So they said if we put our offer in writing and signed the document that would be fine for them. We did just that.


We provided them a document in English that stated that for the accident which occurred in the school playground we has the parents agreed to provide financial assistance to the family for any medical costs as a result of this accident that were not covered by their insurance carrier. We agreed to cover only medical costs not covered by insurance where they provided us verifiable receipts from reputable sources. That is what we wrote.


2 weeks after the incident we met again with the mother and daughter they had said they had the receipts for us.


In this meeting they presented us with one receipt for the hospital bill which most was covered by insurance. And then on a separate sheet of paper they had prepared a spread sheet of other related costs (of which no receipts were provided). In this summary they were now claiming for lost salary (8 days total) due to doctors visits for both parents and taxi fares to and from the hospital and to and from the outpatient clinic. The receipts for the outpatient clinic were only credit card receipts nothing we could actually check. And in the end they wanted us to pay them close to 30 K for their trouble. They even suggested that because it was our fault we should use our insurance and they should not use there’s as their premiums will increases and that is our responsibility.


Well we have been going back and forth over the last few weeks today they called us and said pay up now or else they will have our son arrested. We said lets go the police station and settle this if you like they cussed us and hung up.


We wanted to do the right thing and be responsible parent’s but it appears that is not possible, I don’t want to have to hire an attorney for this as it will only make a fairly small cost much larger.


Here are some questions I have that maybe more experienced or knowledgeable reader can offer me there thoughts or opinions.


1 Should I be concerned here?


2 Does their case have merit and should I prepare for further legal challenges?


3 The school, is the school in any way liable? It was on school property, during school hours, under school supervision? I have no intention to involve the school but I am curious if the other parents don’t get here pound of flesh from us is there a chance they may go after the school?


4 Will the police even entertain this complaint from a school playground? Seems like this is not that an unsual event and I would believe that it occurs every day in the school year somewhere in HK.


5 What is the age statue in HK for my son he is currently only 10 years old? This is just strange I don’t know what possible benefit there could be from classifying him has older and I don’t think the other parents would be the ones to make that call.


6 We have been advised to file a complaint against the parents of the girl for extortion is that proper?


Concerned Parent…

LC

1 yes

2 yes

3 not sure

4 yes, civil case

5 forget your son and forget jail or anything like this. it's a minor civil case. when they go to the police, they will sue you for some money and then it's a question of what is reasonable and what not

6 i would be careful with this and only do so if the police or a lawyer advises this action


fundamentally your son is liable for his actions in all the consequences. not just medical bills. taxi trips could certainly be included. if the parents both work and really did not get paid during that time, it could be borderline included as well. but only a lawyer can tell.


the girls parents could also sue the school for negligence, but that is between them and the school. stay out of it


my advice, negotiate further and if you eventually settle on something, put it in writing and mention that this exchange of costs represents a full and final settlement


edit: cases like this is the reason why people take out third party liability insurance...costs you a few hundreds a year, but saves you a lot of hassle

They are clearly trying to take advatage of you and the situation.


I would ignore their requests. There is no way the HK police will ever put a 10 year old in jail! Their suggestions that this can happen is absurd.


If they do end up going to the police, the worst that will happen is that the police will ask you to sort it out amongst yourselves. I doubt they will pay the money for a lawyer.


If it was me, I'd call their bluff but be prepared just in case. The only thing that may happen is you may be required to pay reasonable compensation (not taxi fares and loss of salary) if taken to court.

I work for a school and this is what I've observed as we do get such accidents. If it happened within school time, it's a matter for the school. You're not liable for the costs. There will be no police case. If anything, the school is in trouble for failure to provide proper supervision.


Prepare for the worst. But I don't think there is a need to even pay the parents. It's never happened where I've worked. Your son can't go to jail or even get a blimp on his juvenile record. The only thing he'll get is a bad school report (as long as it happened in school - within school hours).


Parents are obviously scaremongers.

Appreciate all your insights we will wait the weekend and see were it goes.

hey dont worry-- they are trying to cheat you despite your offer of being fair and reasonable

they cant do a thing to your kid -- sit back and relax --you already called their bluff and they hung up on you. on the other hand teach/explain to your kid to learn from the experience that it is not good to anger quickly remind him anger is just 1 letter short of danger

Moving On,


Before I will give you my story which is the same story I have had with my son when he was 9 years old. I would like to know your nationality.


Are you Westerns? Filipino? Or other nationals aside from what I have mentioned?


In my case, am a Filipino, single mom. My son did the same thing like your boy when he was 9 years old. He pushed his classmate who allegedly stolen his belonging during recess time. The boy got hurt stayed in the hospital for a week. I was called by the School Principal to meet the parents of the boy. The Principal suggested that I have to write a note saying, I am sorry for what my boy did and agreed to pay all medical bills, daily salary of the parents and a specialist for the rehablilitation of their son. I did not agree. I told the Principal to call the police, she said my son would be in trouble if we invovle the police I said me and my son would be in trouble if I agree. I said I know the law and will involve the Education Department if you insist. They asked me to leave and they talk privately as they know I can understand their language. Then they called me back and asked me to go to the hospital and see the damage done by my son. Again, I answered with the Police I will go. It's on and off that day that the school and parents talked privately in other room. I got annoyed and I said if this thing will not finish in 15 minutes I will call the Police. Principal asked me to leave and said we will just send you a letter to come again later within the week to settle and your son will be suspended in school. I said Thank you and thank you for his supension but my son will not come here after the suspension date. But I see you all guys in court for negligence.


I reported the case to the police after without telling them. A week later I received a letter from the school to meet the parents. I came and I was given receipts. I said give me all copy of the receipts chop as copy signed by parents and teachers. Amount is more than $12K. they handed me the receipts with chop and son's parents signature, then they asked me to sign another paper saying date of payment ( promisory note sorth of) I did not sign and the boys Mommy got histerical. Principal told me my son will go to jail if I insist going to court which I did not insist anyway just don't like to sign anything. I said so be it so he will have a lesson. I called the Police when I excused my self going to toilet.


I did not pay anything, reported the case to the Education Department, filed a case of negligence to the school and helping parents for extortion and extortion from the parents. Filed a civil case lost of income. The principal was fired and removed my son in that school.


Do not be afraid, get all your evidences ( I mean receipts of all medical bills) In my case I also requested the payroll in the boy's parent's company done ofcourse with due process of law.


Go to the Police.

Hun196988,


Thanks sounds like you have a very similar experience, I was certain that I was not the first.


I am American married to a Filipina. I have been in HK on and off since 1994.


Tell me this when you called the police did they do anything? Did they even come to the school?


On what basis did you bring the police in to your problem?




ALL,


Thanks for the response, I have recently been informed that already this year at this school 2 kids have been hurt similarly on playground similar in respect to injury. I do not know the details of how the injury happened they won’t share that.


I just returned from the school, the school administrator called us just before lunch asking what is our decision will we pay their demand as the girl’s mother was calling the school. We told her we stand by our original offer and asked to have them call us directly and leave the school out of this. After that my son’s school teacher called us using the same approach and we informed him the same as we did the administrator. Eventually the mom did call us she said we must pay her the amount demanded or else. We refused and repeated the offer from our agreement medical expenses not covered by insurance with proper receipts only. She then said she was going to send the police to school now so I went over to be there in case they showed up (while I was there they did not).


This seems like a real mess, and what an example for the kids. Both my kids ask me why I am at their school and why I am taking them home early. I just told them Moms not feeling well.


Anyway lots of interesting comments above. I feel a bit less anxious after reading all the responses. I now feel this will end up being a civil matter and not a criminal matter. Which I believe will focus more on the amount of restitution verses the actual deed in the playground. That will for the most part remove the police as they are keen to arrest criminals that actually break the laws and are not so interested in school playground mishaps.


I will not respond to her demands any more I am preparing a quit claim of sorts which I will present to her if she ever agrees to our offer as I now feel she may take the money and still sue us. But I told my wife no more jumping through hoops for this let the chips fall where they may and we respond in kind to whatever they actually end up doing.


So far all they are doing is aggravating us and who knows maybe that s the plan, wear us out wear us down.

I actually don't understand why you'd want to pay for the child's injury unless it's sheer goodwill on your part and fear of getting a blimp on your child's school record (which I understand). Be wary though as if word gets around that you are willing to pay off this incident (when you clearly don't have to) especially if this is a local school (elite or otherwise), other opportunistic parents might jump in next time a child gets hurt (by accident) by your child.


This is clearly a school matter. There is nothing the parents can do about it. If the school makes it difficult for you, file a complaint with EDB and question why there was insufficient playground supervision.


Nothing to fear at all. Relax. Stand your ground. Make sure you let the school and the parents know that you believe that the school is liable for what happens in the school and you are simply compensating out of sheer good will (and not admitting fault). Someone should have been on duty and watching! And this someone failed to watch over the kids!

Moving on,


Now I understand, you are westerner married to filipina. As family of three said go to the education department. let them involve file, file negligence case against the school. report to the police against the parents of extortion and the school administrator of helping them. As I have said in my previous reply that I called the police while i was in school having an on and off arguement with them and threatening me that they will let the police arrest my kid. I excused myself to the toilet when i came back to the principals office police are here.I also get paid while i was out of work during those days attending to this matter. they even named me as kunyang which means am only a filipina doing house work. they got surprised when i went to court dress up with sophistication and more surprised when my boss came with me testifying with she had those letters of mine and my time card asking permission of no pay leave cause am going to my sons school. and knows also that the boy's mom who claims lost of wages is a full time mother (job less). No income proof when the judge asked her to provide. ha ha ha. Be tough man show them you know the law. the next time they will call you ask them they will call the police or else you will call but first have those receipts and their request a copy for you as your evidence and also if you can record conversations for your protection.


Again, involve the Department of Education... don't let the school know about this untill they will find out by themselves.



Good speed.

perhaps you could tape record the school/parents of other child threatening to have police throw your little child in jail......just so you could let them know that you have evidence of them being threatening and deceitful as there is no way they would jail a young child for something like this.....many people in this town think they can threaten people verbally and make all sorts of outlandish claims just so long as it's not on paper! Infuriating!

You need to see a criminal lawyer. The age of criminal responsibility in Hong Kong is 10. You or the other parent are unlikely to be successful in a negligence suit against the school. There has been other cases like this against schools that have been tried in court, and children are a special case. You may find this link useful on the duty of care of a school to its students.

http://www.mayerbrown.com/publications/article.asp?id=4629&nid=10353


I feel that you should have called the police in the first instance. I feel the matter would have been dealt with better if official channels had been gone through. It is unlikely that your child would have been imprisoned.


At the moment, it seems there is a chance the other parents are engaging in fraud. Get some assistance.

good post flashback. i always thought it was interesting to see all the above posters who claim that the school could be sued for negligence for an incident as described which was a direct, non-controllable act by the OP's kid.

Dear Moving On,


Save your money, you don't need to contact a criminal lawyer as this is not a criminal case. You have nothing to worry about. The police are not going to entertain a school yard accident by two children. Your son will not be charged with a criminal offence. He is not going to jail. If anybody could be accused of negligence and sued, it's the school, and that's only in civil proceedings, not criminal. If that were the case, the school's insurance company would be a party, not your son. My advice is to completely ignore the other parents who it would seem are more interested in getting some extra cash than being concerned about their own daughter's welfare.

It seems to me that the issue shouldn't be the money, it should be about how your son acted. At his age he should be able to exercise more control over his emotions. I thought boys were taught not to hit or push girls. Perhaps i am old fashioned. I believe that you should be held fully accountable for your son's actions. Stop trying to point fingers, saying it is the school's fault. Perhaps your son needs some lessons proper behavior and manners. Teach your child!!! Own up to your responsibilities, he is YOUR child.

Backsoorman, we are talking about 10 year old children here, not adults. What is your point?

@bdm


I dont think the issue is money at all. The parents of the boy has taken responsibility, but its seems the parents of the girl are trying to take avantage of the situation. We've somehow managed to combine the two. They are separate points.


Furthermore, the OP hasnt pointed any fingers anywhere but is enquiring how to protect themselves from any potential 'misunderstandings' about money.


Also in jest, tongue in cheek, to make a funny, or in just plain whimsical fun.

I can almost see you standing there pointing and waving your finger while writing your post. Perhaps it is you that should learn some reading comprehension skills. how are you to teach your own son this important lesson? Own up to your responsibilities and teach yourself the important lessons of reading comprehension. And in the words of one our famous politicians "Do da wight fing an chai your brest"


All in good fun and dont take the last paragraph seriously. except the quote. its funny....


:)

Backdoorman,


The isssue here is not parenting or educating Moving On's son. This is an accident happened in school which resulted in injury. The school is held responsible. They did made their part to let both kid's parents meet. An agreement was made of Moving On helping the girls' parent apying medical bills not covered by their insurance, I believed in good will which he shld have not. But after that according to Moving On's narration, it seems resulted in extortion, threat and the school seems not doing their part. So to resolve this? Involve the Education Department that's it.


Again, be tough Moving On do what is right!

First of all thank you to all of you, you are providing me interesting and diverse insights. In addition to the traditional recourse that I knew was available to me (police, attorneys, courts) and consistent with what I believed was the probable due course I have also been enlightened to other potential options that are available here in Hong Kong.



Trying to settle this amicably between adult parties is not possible and perhaps I was being naive to think that was possible.


We are at this time remaining quite. I received no calls yesterday the police did not show up at the school. I now expect that I will receive a call this week from the police department requesting I answer a complaint filed against my son. I will answer that complaint and see where that takes us. I envision this will be the precursor to the civil suit which will follow assuming we cannot settle this with or before the police.


Much to my relief I do not believe there is actually a criminal case here so it should follow a civil course of action.


I will be seeing an attorney this week just seek proper legal advice in light of the direction this appears to heading.


Thanks Again - Kung Hei Fat Choy

Well a week has passed since the threats and all is quite, no more calls and no comments from the school. Thanks again for all the insights. Will check back in a week and let every one know what comes of this.

Moving On,


From what little I recall about criminal and civil law in the UK/HK (which are indeed similar) I would be extremely surprised if your son could be criminally prosecuted for such a playground incident at such an age and in terms of civil claims, I would suggest that your own morals (and good ethics and kind nature) have been terribly abused here - in addition to fear for your son's future. If anything this sounds like an awful case of extortion and horrible threats and just have to believe that, eventually, karma will get the better of these other "concerned" parents...


I hope that you can educate your son as to the dangers of rather inappropriate behaviour/playground fighting but indeed this is part of growing up. At 10, though, I hope he understands how much strength he has (compared to say 6 year olds) and better learns to control his anger, in any situation, including playground situations, in future. Of course, reprimands of your little one aside, common sense says that the "victims" parents have taken this WAY too far and clearly have other motives (i.e. they're not concerned about their daughter's role in the sequence of events and or her continued safety at the school) - they want hard cash!!!


I'd advise "sitting tight" whilst maybe getting the advice of legal counsel in the meantime to reassure you/put your mind at rest.


I've read this with great concern and interest. Please let us know how you get on and good luck!

Wow, what a world we live in. Don't worry. Ignore them. This is a minor matter that is between the school and the injured child's parents. The matter seems very big to the parents, but it's trivial in judicial terms!


The incident happened at school. therefore the school would be liable - criminal or civil.


Let's not even bother with the criminal suit. No presecutor is going to waste time trying to prove criminal negligence for a broken arm. No-one's going to prison! So let's put that to bed right now.


In the case of a civil suit, your responsibility is transferred to the school as well - the school has a duty of care to the students under their charge as they are acting 'in loco parentis' (in the place of a parent); as the children pass the gates, the school adopts certain legal and moral responsibilities. Actually, it's the teacher who would be in the crosshairs on this one - unless the school failed to provide adult supervision or faulty equipment etc caused the injury. The school may choose to support the teacher, or not.


If a teacher was on duty at the playground, the parents would need to prove that the teacher was negligent in that duty. They'd need to prove that the teacher failed to act as a reasonable parent, failed to abide by education guidelines, school rules or the terms and conditions with their employer. Basically that the teacher was negligent in their duty of care over the children. If the teacher is a member of a union, or other professional body, they'd have a mighty warchest to fight this. Courts are reluctant to award against teachers on such grounds, especially for trivial injuries, as they know just how dynamic the school environment is.


I wouldn't be too worried about anything you've said thus far. You're statement to pay costs does not absolve the school of its responsibilities.


If you really want peace of mind, engage a law firm, or book to see a free duty lawyer:


http://www.dutylawyer.org.hk/en/free/free.asp


Let us all know how you go!

As a policeman in Hk for thirty years, I read this thread with amazement. There is no way we would charge a 10 year old with anything in relation to these matters. The very worst would be a 'Superintendent Discretion' in which the kid would be given a warning and told their conduct was wrong, etc. May involve a referral to an NGO or Social Welfare Dep't.


In this process there would be some consideration of the injuries/compensation to the victim. Medical treatment in HK is essentially free. If the victim chooses to use private doctors, then that is their own business.


My own view is that the first advice that the parents were trying some form of extortion is valid.

See this thread:


http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/legal-advice/threads/139049/dog-bite-incident/


Sounds like the parents are of the exact same ilk as the woman trying to extort cash from this poor dog owner. Maybe they are of the same self indulgent, sense of entitlement family/relatives.


This is so obviously a typical HK try-on:


"Well we have been going back and forth over the last few weeks today they called us and said pay up now or else they will have our son arrested. We said lets go the police station and settle this if you like they cussed us and hung up."


They are playing on your concern and love for your son, that you will cough up anything to protect him from (a) humiliation (b) fear (c) police record.


They are filth! They are very low, and they are spinless. How cowardly threatening a parent that they will have their 10 yr old arrested unless the parent submit to their demands. It is extortion.


These sort of people have no dignity, and are quite happy to cause problems and suffering for others just to try and squeeze some money out of them.


They have no guilt about the impact this would have upon your son or your family. They do not respect you. They just see you as a cash machine. This is a materialistic society and you, especially as an expat, are viewed as low hanging fruit, ripe for the squeezing.


They probably don't see it is extortion, just a business opportunity. They sound like a pair of filthy parasites, for which decent society would be best if rid of.


Presumably if you are American and your wife is from Philipines then your son is 1/2 Filipino? Without overly generalising, HK is a racist place against people with SE Asian ethnicity, and there is a reasonable likelihood that these people's prejudices are contributing to their nastiness and disrspect for you, yout wife and your children.


Sounds like the school needs their legal position explained to them in respectg of responsibility. Ask them about their insurance policy for personal injury? I'd be very suprised if the school is uninsured.


You'd best get your own legal advice. It won't cost anything like 30k.

This is not the US. You have to be incredibly wealthy to sue in Hong Kong and even if they do, you are on very strong legal ground by the sounds of things. HK Police will do absolutely nothing. Obviously causing you stress but we're talking about children here.

Thank you to all who provided us constructive points of view.


It would appear at this point that the parents have exhausted all of the potential legal means to extract retribution and perhaps have been advised as the readers above have indicated. We have not heard a word from them since the last attempt to get us to pay their unreasonable demand 2 weeks before CNY. We offered at that time our original offer but they insisted we pay the full amount and said they were going to the police if we did not. Our agreement was predicated on leaving the police out so we told them if they chose to do so we would expect that the matter will then only be resolved via full legal recourse and we would no longer honor our original offer.


There is of course ample time for them to file a civil complaint but as I read from several of the responses above even this is fraught with danger and is not a sure fire road to victory for them. Hopefully they have spoken to a level headed solicitor who gave them sound advice and they have chosen to abandon this as well.


As it stands today all is quite on the front, I hope it remains as such. If there are any developments worthy of sharing I will post it again on this thread. Again thank you to all who took the time to read my post and respond with constructive feedback most of which was truly useful and provided my family with comfort when we were thinking the worst is yet to come.


Thanks to Asia Xpat for providing this forum.

Lesson learned, aside from the potential legal action, it's all probably an overreaction at this point. If you were in their shoes you may react the same way, as it is their child. Who wants to see their child hurt.


Anyways, you should also ensure to teach your son about controlling his anger. If unchecked, it can be problematic as he gets older.


Just my two cents.

I think people see an expat is involved and think 'payday'.

Often non-nationals can be bullied because they feel vulnerable in a foreign country. There is no need.


Luckily in Mainland China there is no litigation culture. I have a feeling that lawyers have been called in to the courts and a word as firmly been put in their ears.

UP DATE - Well two months have passed the parents have not contacted us in over a a month, we see them at school functions and they just give us a scornful look. We let it be and did nothing besides this thread. We were prepared to and had selected a attorney if it was required but in the end it was not.


As I see it today it appears to be history.


Thanks again to all

A few deletions this morning...


I feel the need for ... a musical interlude!!! Yes! Yes! A musical interlude is definitely required on this fine morning...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTBPdVpdMc

I have learned the parents called the police and the police called the school and told the school they wanted to interview my son. The school told the police they should speak to my wife or me directly first. The school than informed us that the police wanted to interview our son. I told the school under no circumstances would we permit for our son to be interviewed by a police office at school or at the police station. If they had a legal matter that warranted investigation they should proceed as mandated by local law. But, I declined to allow him to be subjected to a police questioning at his age and suggested if they wanted to speak to us (his parents) we would be glad to accommodate there request.


That interview never materialized and since then the parents have told the school they are suing us small claims court, so we wait for the notice to appear.

I have learned the parents called the police and the police called the school and told the school they wanted to interview my son. The school told the police they should speak to my wife or me directly first. The school than informed us that the police wanted to interview our son. I told the school under no circumstances would we permit for our son to be interviewed by a police office at school or at the police station. If they had a legal matter that warranted investigation they should proceed as mandated by local law. But, I declined to allow him to be subjected to a police questioning at his age and suggested if they wanted to speak to us (his parents) we would be glad to accommodate there request.


That interview never materialized and since then the parents have told the school they are suing us small claims court, so we wait for the notice to appear.

Can I ask, what school is this? They appear to be handling the situation very poorly.