Freelance Visa?

What kind of Visa can I get for being a freelance guitar teacher?


And secondly IF the only way is to found a company to get the investment visa (this is a separate question), can it be a one-man operation?


Thirdly, if I have to employ people, I am not in a position to pay wages. They will have to take the money they get from the fees from whatever lessons they teach, minus the percentage taken by the "company", will this be adequate for applying for an investment visa?


If anyone can answer the three above questions i'd appreciate it. Thanks a lot in advance.

I can't, i've tried this for months, as soon as anyone finds out I need sponsoring for a visa they run a mile. Nobody wants to know then suddenly. Even some stars were interested in me for sessions but they won't touch me until I sort this problem out first. So there is no "work that nobody locally can do" that I can get to sponsor me. This is my last resort. But I cannot afford to setup a business other than this one. Not to mention I wouldn't know how to. And this kind of buiness does not have a pay by the hour fixed wage for staff. It has a roster of musicians and they make money when a sale is made for a music lesson, venue performance or musician hired for session. So how can I do this? Many thanks.

Hi and many thanks for your reponses.


CARA, my standpoint is that I will try to say that I will bring musical services to the scene that are rarely available in Hong Kong. This will not just be with the music lessons but also with the provision of musicians for events/functions and for sessions. And also that through the real-world approach to teaching musicians I will help to cultivate unique artists in a musically starved HK scene. Hopefully something like this will be convincing enough that I am offering to bring something new to society.


There are some genuine great musicians in Hong Kong but they are almost never "local" talent. At least I can offer the proposal that I will help to change this. Although I can't guarantee making a large impact in a short period of time due to the small scale of my proposed business, I think that I can at least show that I am intending to make as much contribution as I reasonably can in my circumstances. Not to mention that the long term potential could possibly be large.


To be honest just by myself as a guitarist and artist I could potentially bring a lot to the HK scene. This was my original intention. But unfortunately due to red tape and my dubious situation it seems that I have to go all the way around the houses like this not to get thrown out in order to pursue my career. And I cannot get a visa on the strength of my potential as a music-artist. All of the types of visa application are based around business, finance, academics, etc. And in terms of a work sponsor, nobody wants the trouble of getting tangle up with visa sponsorship.


I had a studio wanting me to teach for them (amongst other guitar-related duties) and they tried to help sponsor me to get the visa. However, because they could not provide the adequate documentation for the application, since they effectively had never bothered to do any accounts since the birth of the company, it became impossible. This incident surprised me, because the company was actually decent and working well. It would have been a nice place to work too. I didn’t expect that this situation would arise. It's just that in terms of paperwork they had never bothered to get around to doing any accounts, evidence of which are required for visa applications. And they couldn’t mock any up quickly either, because they have no records to go by. Not to mention they actually had no idea how to do accounts anyway and never hired an accountant.


Back to the point regarding my usefulness to the scene. For example, I have had interest shown from a few rather large stars, two of which have said that there are no genuine guitarists playing the same way that I am on the Hong Kong scene at the moment and that I could have some good opportunities, especially since being unique is one of my key factors as a musician. I will not get into the being better than everyone else, or worse than everyone else conversation because that's a bad idea in music and it is very hard to quantify as something more than opinion. So let's just say that I have a unique approach and some unique characteristics that nobody else has on the HK scene.


Regarding these two example "stars", one of these has proposed that it maybe possible for me to gain a monopoly currently as a session guitarist since there is little or no competition at an adequate level of ability and nobody to fill the spot in HK as "the session guitarist" other than pretty generic players. I have pretty much been told that there is no good session guitarist in Hong Kong now and there is an opening in the scene for someone unique.


The other example star has proposed that my career as an artist in my own right is possible and could be successful with some help and could bring a new future to the music scene. There would also be no competition for me whatsoever on the HK music scene regarding the kind of thing I wouldbe offering as an artist / band. Not just in terms of genre but in terms of the whole approach and package.


In both cases however, firstly, none of these points help me to qualify for any kind of visa, since, as I stated earlier, it’s pretty much based around business people and academics. And in both of these cases, to gain any assistance or interention from the mentioned example stars I would need to sort out my own visa situation before I can progress. As I say, nobody is interested in the trouble and hassle of dealing with this hurdle. One of them pretty much told me to sort out my visa situation first and them come back to talk.


So Cara, what course of action would you suggest under these circumstances?


P.MASON, thanks a lot for your response. Actually I was confused regarding premises, because the application seems to assume that you have a location as though it is a requirement. But when I asked in the immigration department they said if it's not neccessary for your business then that's okay. Then again whatever I ask them about anything I get a different answer to the same question each time I ask usually, so it's hard to feel certain.


I also asked them what the minimum requirement regarding how many "local employees" I must take on is and how much a "significant contribution" to the society actually means quantifiably. To both questions the lady remarked with a laugh that she could not answer those queries. I asked her if she couldn't then who could? Since she was on the information desk for business investment visas. Where else would I ask the questions? Not to mention what other reason would her position have for existing other than to answer queries regarding the application of business investment visas? Anyway she maintained that she would not and could not give a straight answer and that I just had to apply and see what happened, as though this is a casual affair rather than a mammoth-event deciding the course of a persons entire life and future. My argument was that if I know now whether or not I am wasting my time I will know whether to pursue this or not. The argument failed. She just again refused. She said, apply and see what happens.


So the truth is, no matter who I ask about what, I can never be truly sure. I will just have to "try it and see" as she said, I think.


The other thing I wonder is, if you are supposed to have premises, yet are supposed to get a visa before commencing business, how can you arrange the premises before applying for the visa? Especially since they say you are not theoretically supposed to be in Hong Kong until AFTER you receive the visa successfully. If I was not in Hong Kong and not to mention if I do not have the go-ahead (obtaining the visa), how and why would I secure and arrange a premises? It's one thing to have to register the business first and pay for that, just to find out that you may not get to do it after all if you don't receive the visa, but to arrange and enter into a property contract is another thing entirely.


Anyway this all leads me to the point that it also seems to state in the literature that the INTENTION needs to be to employ locals and I suspect something similar must apply to premises. So as long as my business plan convincingly seems to be able to become a success and eventually (let's say after 6-12 months) employ local citizens, then this should be meeting the criteria right? Because i’m pretty sure nobody can expect a business, especially a small business, to fulfil all of it’s goals instantly upon start-up right?


To be honest, I am happy to employ people at some stage if I actually need them for the running of the business and the business has become successful enough to be able to fund their wages. So my intention stated in the business plan would be true anyway!


To be really honest I cannot affordto go through an agency either. The only reason I can prove to the immigration department that I can fund the business is because it has virtually no costs and I have SOME income coming in from UK from a property related endeavour I have going. I can just about show and prove that this income can fund the business (based on the fact that it has virtually no costs because it doesn't need a premises or much else) as well as support myself to survive.


The other point is that pretty much any costs that ARE incurred will only be apparent AFTER each job has been paid for by the customer. For example, only after a block of lessons is sold will I then need to pay studio rental for the place to teach the lessons. A similar situation applies to the other services. So the costs are self-covering, so to speak. If that makes sense. Therefore I do not need much capital to be able to fund the business. This is my standpoint in proving to them that I can afford to run the business. Also, the studo that tried to help me before and couldn’t, has agreed to make a percentage based arrangement with them to use their studio for lessons and rehearsals. This should help to clarify the premises situation with the immigration department, right?


The only questionable area is in terms of paying the employees. There is no way in a business like this that you can guarantee a fixed hourly rate at fixed hours like you can in a restaurant business for example. The "employees" will only get work when lessons or musician-services are sold. And they will get paid from each sale, with the company taking a small percentage commission. So this is the grey area. How else can I run wages and payments in a business with this nature? And so are they properly considered employees of the company satisfactorily to fulfil the criteria of obtaining the business investment visa?


To be honest I think this is the only questionable factor. Everything else I can explain in my business plan. I can even explain this, but this is the thing I don't know if they will accept or not. Being able to explain this does not mean that it will be satisfactory.


I am currently writing the business plan. This is not a problem. The only major question I think is regarding the employment status of the roster of personnel that I have signed onto the company. I guess if I state the intention to eventually employ regular personnel in a regular format at a later date aswell then this should satisfy them. Under the circumstances, there's not much more I can offer without saying something that is not true and will probably not come true, which of course I am not going to do, such as inventing the fact that I will employ people and then fail to do so. Which would only help me to lose the visa that I tried so hard to obtain when they check up on why I failed to live up to what I stated in the business plan.

Well thanks for reading and considering. Since you see it that way, can you suggest a course of action for me? Any ideas would be appreciated.


I have a legitimate ability to offer a lot to Hong Kong in the long term if only people can see the future potential.

CARA, thanks again for your response and yes, this is absolutely what I am trying to find a way to do. It is just difficult due to the nature of my "ability" and that it is not academic or business/finance related. But this business/investment route is my way of attempting to quantify what I can do in a way in which they can understand and also broaden the scope of what I explain to them that I am offering. Unfortunately I doubt very much sending them a demo CD will make them "realize" anything if they don't have an understanding of music. They may, but they will more than likely not. So I just feel that I need to go this route in order to present it in a business related perspective.


So regarding what you said, maybe I am wrong but, to me this is the best way that I can think of to try and prove it to them.


This is kind of a ridiculous scenario, but anyway, I just very much doubt that any demonstation of musical ability will do any good since it still doesn't fill any criteria on paper. Firstly, it would then rely on the individual officer having some understanding of music, more than regular HK folks. Or rather any regular folks these days. And having a taste for the particular demo that I chose to use, which again could be one of many, it would simply be a lucky dip trying to send the right one that would happen to fit the taste of the officer that happens to deal with the case.


And even if the officer was moved to envision the musical career potential, he/she still might not be able to DO anything about it because on paper, considering the criteria stated by the government, it doesn't really tick any of the boxes no matter what I can demonstrate musically, right?


I also do intend to hire local staff but just not in the beginning, because it is impossible for me to fund that and it is completely uneccessary since the initial services of the business before expansion will not require it.


When the business expands to require it and to be able to support it, I fully intend to do so.



ANDY. Thanks also. Well I was just concerned about going the hotel route because I would get trapped in that and also the visa length seems to depend on the contract length right? But you say the first visa opens the door, maybe I will be okay to try this route.


Also I don't want to work illegally of course, because I am trying to establish a career and a future and get permanent residency as soon as possible.


For a long-term career, no, being a "gigging musician" is not a viable long-term future, however, in the short-term, of course I am more than open to it and it is a neccessary start. Especially if it can help me get over this hurdle.


I am just not sure how I would fit into the hotel scene, but it's worth a try if it's a genuine way to solve the issue. I don't know if I could get a contract in time before my tourist stay runs out though, which is July.


I do have 2 band projects running in Hong Kong at the moment that I am trying to develop for career potential. One of the would probably be appropriate for hotels. Maybe I could offer this. It would also offer them something unique rather than generic jazz standards or pop-jazz or the usual stuff they have playing in hotels.


It's like a melodic jazz fusion type project with "world elements" so to speak. The other project would probably not be appropriate for hotels since it is more to the rock blues and funk type of side.

I was thinking about that, but it's going to be hard to get clients, especially that many, without creating my promotional / advertising campaign first. Which I can't really do until I know the business is going ahead.


On the other hand, I was thinking to start creating the promotional materials NOW anyway, but I don't know if I can produce everything quick enough to do all of this before I need to submit the application.

Thanks again Andy. Okay I will keep this in mind. And yes I was thinking about that. Is it allowed? Can anyone enlighten?

I forgive you haha.


To pursue a career.


I have connections and I know more people in music here than anywhere. Not to mention my band / musician comrades are here.


I also have potential large opportunities in Hong Kong. For more details I did elaborate to some degree in my above "long" post.


And no there is no opportunity regarding what I do in England. People don't seem to like what I do there or have any interest in it. I have tried to do things there, it's impossible. I wasted a lot of time on it. And since I don't live in London when i'm in England it's just as difficult and costly as trying to do it in Hong Kong with the exception that I don't have a visa issue there. On the other hand I don't have any opportunity there either. I've tried things and it's been completely dead. People don't wanna know and have no interest. At least there are quite a few people that do here, not to mention some do that are actually in the music industry too.


So it's not only that people are interested to hear it, there are some people taking some interest in helping to promote it too, since as of yet the remaining market areas involving every kind of music other than pop idols has not yet been tapped into in Hong Kong, due to companies fear allowing anything else.


This seems to apply everywhere nowadays though. And although it's bad news for musicians, there are some people in Hong Kong interested in making a change and tapping into the markets that have so far been ignored here. There are a lot of people that would buy actual music rather than idol tunes. The market just needs tapping into as I said. And whoever is the first to dare to do so would have a monopoly on the market (or markets because there are many shapes and forms of music out there), at least in the beginning, until others jump on the bandwagon.


Anyway so back to the opportunities. There are some. But they depend on me getting past this hurdle first. They just don't want to be entangled with visa issues. It seems to be treated like having a disease as soon as you mention it people get scared. I wouldn't have thought it would be that big of a hassle with a sponsoring company compared with the ohter routes (ie - starting my own business), so although I understand that people don't want hassle, I only understand so far.


Anyway, as I mentioned above i've been told to sort out my visa situation then go back and talk, so to speak!


I have potential for session work with stars, not to mention potential for being teamed up with production companies. But it all depends on being able to find a way to stay and work legally and freely!! At least until things get going with those!! Because also another factor to consider is that these things take time to develop aswell.


Although people in the industry have interest they are VERY CAREFUL regarding making any commitments especially when somebody's status of stay in HK is dubious.


So back to the potential, not to mention there is not really any competition for what I do. I don't mean simply being a guitarist, but my play has unique elements that nobody else has, especially in HK. As I said before, I won't talk about people being better or worse, because that is not appropriate. But i'll say that I have some unique elements that other's don't have. So there is no "direct" competition.


I've been told by some "stars" (I can't think of a better word to use for the convenience of the conversation) that there are no good / real / exceptional session guitarists in Hong Kong now also and that this should be a big opening for me. Not to mention potential for my own career, since another "star" is interested in promoting my band projects. As I said though, all of these would depend on me sorting out being able to stay of my own accord (not relying on them).


Regarding the last point, yes I am aware of that, but I am talking about a career as an musical artist. Of course I will say that playing in pubs and clubs is not a career. I am not the kind of musician that plays pub rock covers and karaoke songs. I'm trying to establish a real career.

PS - I talked to a lawyer, he was a rather kind fellow and gave me free advice. He suggested that the business investment / opening a company approach was a bad idea. And although immigration are vague regarding requirements, thus indicating that theoretically my application should have a reasonable possibility of acceptance, in reality the situation would be HIGHLY unlikely to result in any success.


He said that honestly, what they really care about is how much money you're bringing in and how you are going to create local jobs.


Although I could prove being able to support my company due to it having virtually no costs, he said that honestly if I cannot show at least having 500k capital that they are more than likely going to reject it. Even though it is completely uneccessary for the business in question.


He also said that because my "educational background" is not in music. Although I have a degree, since it is in computing and business, nothing to do with music, which is the business I would be getting into, this would also be bad news.


Unfortunately I am not a classical pianist for example. There is no qualification or degree relating to the music I play. And especially not at the time when I studied at university, anywhere near where I studied, or anywhere I could have found. Not to mention I had not exactly realized that I could and would pursue a musical career for certain at that point anyway.


Maybe the closest thing could have been the Berklee college of music, but I certainly did not live anywhere near there, not even on the same continent! Nor have the opportunity to go there.


The point is, he said no matter my ability or skill level, immigration won't care, they just care what's down on paper. And they will want my educational background and work experience to reflect what i'm doing in my business.


The other factor is that I will not have or need an office address. He said this will also be unacceptable. And it does seem that it's an expectation on all the application related materials and application form. Although I did ask in the immigration department and they said "ok ok just fill the form and give it in", but to be honest everything I ask them they give me a different answer every time.


I even asked, regarding the company employing local staff, what's the limit? Is one staff enough? If not, how many? The lady laughed (in a sort of "ha you idiot" way) and stated that she could not and would not tell me the answer. I said if not then who can? Since she was at the business investment visa helpdesk. She said nobody, just fill the form and see what happens.


I then asked if she could give me a quantifiable indication regading the meaning of the business making a "substantial" contribution to society. She again laughed in the same way and said that obviously if she couldn't and wouldn't answer the previous question, the same would apply to this query. I asked why have a business investment visa query / helpdesk if they would not answer any queries regarding the business investment visa? Again she said "just fill the form and see what happens"..!


So to be honest, it's all rather confusing when nobody gives a straight answer. But the lawyer was pretty clear. He said it's VERY unlikely to work and that the process for obtaining the business investment visa is one of, if not the most strict and difficult.


He suggested I pursue the "stars" to help me, but of course, even if they did (although they are very very reluctant to deal with this issue), it would take too long. I'd not be able to continue staying by then..! I'd have to start doing some sessions and then I don't even know how they could go about it anyway since they would not be (at least not for awhile) giving me a fixed regular wage which i'm sure is a requirement for an employment visa. I think the requirement is that the employed is providing you with a full time regular job that nobody can do locally and giving a wage of 15k per month or more. This is my understanding.


The other thing he agreed was a good option is going the route of getting a hotel contract. The only downside is that again this is not a career. And often you play all night, 4-5 sets per night, 6 days per week in the contracts. This would make it difficult for me to pursue other things career wise. Especially if I have to maintain this to be able to stay. And imagine maintaining these kind of hotel contracts, without any gaps, constantly for 7 years until being eligible for permanent residency! Seems like a tall order!


Can anyone give insight / advice / opinions / further information further to the extra info I gave in this post and the previous one?


Thanks again everyone.

if you have music TEACHING qualifications (degree/diploma) you could apply for a teaching job at an international school (i haven't read through all of your posts...if you've addressed this, my apologies)

Thanos. Unless you have a firm job offer with salary, then Funbobby offers the easiest route - unless you marry someone with a Permanent ID card. Dump the business plan, you're wasting your time. Immigration needs to see an established business or a large amount of cash in the bank - you have neither. It's not going to work . Also, there are a lot of very good musicians in Hong Kong. Apart from world class jazz guitarists like Eugene Pao, there are loads of local kids who have been taking lessons since they were about three (though mainly piano) and countless talented Filipino players. Another thing you may not have considered is that 'generic' rules here. It doesn't rule here because everyone here wants to play and listen to generic music; it rules because rents are so damn high. The only thing that counts is 'bums on seats'. You may have a lot of people interested in your work but that is irrelevant unless you make enough money to cover both your and your employer's costs. Also, red tape is not unique to HK. Try getting a work visa in the UK without an EU passport. Do you have any musical qualifications?