Hi, I am a father of 3 young children all under the age of 5. I am being posted to a job in Hong Kong and the office location is near Quarry Bay. My work place are offering a salary of $1.2mio HKD and a housing allowance of $30,000HKD per month. As a total package is this competitive at a VP level for an opreations role? Schooling is not included, but they will pay for my shipping and flights out. Is the housing budget suitable enough to find a decenet 2-3 bedroom place near Quarry Bay where also the kids will be happy? Comments/feedback very much appreciated.
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I'm guessing VP is in the middle of the ranks at your firm? Your package is fine. Does the salary include bonus? The housing allowance is decent but not stellar. I would think 40k would be more reasonable if you work in finance at the VP level and have three kids. But you can certainly find a nice place on the eastern side of the Island for that.
Remember to apply for schools immediately for all the kids. Try to get your firm to spring for debentures as school spots are very tight.
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I would say that is a very good package. VP level at US Bank making $1.56mm for a backoffice role is higher than what a local in the same job would get. I would pobably take some of income and pay a little bit more for housing. I assume discretionary bonus is extra.
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just make sure you understand and appreciate the cost of education in HK inc. any initial debentures you will need to pay for (assuming that your co. will not help here). It can be a big number. For example a debenture at the principal English primary school in HK is 80,000 HK$ (assuming you get offered a place in the 1st place...which is unlikely).
Just check out the school options before you sign anything.
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CF
14 yrs ago
You really need to consider the cost of school for your 3 children. They are all under 5 now, but time flies when you are having fun and they will all be in school before you know it! If you plan for them to go to international Schools, you are looking at around 100K (give or take up to 30K) per year for each child. Of course local school will cost you virtually nothing but may not be suitable for your children/their needs. The rest of your package is good/fine (although you will get plenty of people who tell you it is not enough) but it is relative to the way you live I guess.
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very good package , the best international school fees are hk$10,000/- per month , my son goes to Canadian school inclusive of everything , ur house rent is also good in HK$30K u can get a appartment in a good area and good size , welcome to hkg...as for debentures it's a shamp if any school ask u to buy this tell them goodbye...u can easily get ur children in the best of schools , like american/ESF run schools/australian...with ur package u can live very well...
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'u can easily get ur children in the best of schools , like american/ESF run schools/australian'
i'm sorry but that is an extremely misleading statement.
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I'll chime in with boddingtons and say that harrypatcher is way off the mark. It is very very hard to find a place at an international school, especially on the Island, at the moment. School search should absolutely be your priority when. Apply for several schools and be flexible.
Debentures do give priority but they are limited in number and it is not a given at all that your company can secure one.
For the next school year, ESF is turning kids away. Many kids don't even get an interview. This is very different from even last year, when kids who didn't pass interviews got a second chance, and pretty much everyone got in.
HKIS has an intake of about 110-120 a year. For next school year, they have 80 siblings (= priority), another 15 or so American citizens (= priority). And let's not forget the corporate debentures. Not a lot left for the "normal" applicants.
Kellett has a limited number of "golden debentures" that give max priority. Even an ordinary corporate debenture is not a guarantee anymore. Chances for individual applicants are slim to none as they are crowded out by sibling priority.
You should look at schools like ISF, IMS, HK Academy as alternatives but they are also crowded.
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Hi Toby,
Is the 1.2mio the gross or nett salary? And how are you being taxed - according to local tax scheme or does your company apply the "hypothetical home country tax" construction (as mine does)?
This will obviously affect your nett position, but either way the salary package sounds very decent.
However, the housing allowance of 30K is quite low if you have 3 kids, it will be very hard to find something nice for that money on HK island. 50K would be more realistic in my opinion. Even in a bit more remote areas like Sai Kung rent goes easily up to 40K for 3 bedroom places...
I only have a 2 yr old which we will be sending to an international nursery after this summer for around 5K per month, so I cannot comment on other school fees at this stage.
Good luck!
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The dreaded "hypothetical home country tax". I hate that stuff and am glad to soon be rid of it.
If you are a US citizen or Permanent Resident you must pay US tax regardless of location, minus HK tax. A huge difference typically.
International Schools range from about 63k/year for ESF Primary to over 150k
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F100
14 yrs ago
hi toby,
$30,000 per month SOUNDS like a LOT of money but doesn't actually buy you much in terms of square footage in HK. keep in mind that with the newer buildings in HK you have about 75% efficiency ratio. that basically means that a 1000 sq foot apartment is actually ONLY 750 sq feet.
check out housing websites such as:
landscope.com, hongkonghomes.com or squarefootage.com to get an idea.
for schooling, it is difficult you get in and there are LONG waiting lists.
someone earlier mentioned LOCAL schools.
if you go that route, it will be difficult unless you also hire a cantonese speaking tutor.
that will run you at least $100 per hour.
schooling and activities for kids are expensive.
try to get your company to throw in something for education for your kids.
when you rent a place, also take into account your monthly airconditioning/electricity cost.
that can easily cost $1500 per month.
food is also very expensive compared the US or Canada.
there are no big discount places such as COSTCO where you can save by buying by Bulk.
Milk, strawberries, beef, chicken is at LEAST double what is costs in North America.
As for food, check out the websites:
Wellcome and Park n Shop to get an idea of how much your monthly food bill will be.
good luck.
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really appreciate the comments guys, I guess my boss over here thinks that the base salary of 1.2mio HKD annualised is decent for a VP doing a sales function selling back and middle office solutions. I am a little disappointed that they are not assisting with the school fees given the high cost associated, plus I do agree that the housing allowance is meagre. Its a shame that HR in HK are providing the financial figures to London, when in fact they should know how expensive it can be...how do you suggest I have the follow up conversation with the boss to get him to up the figures...???
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what levels do you suggest I should be pitching for then, trouble is because this is not a front office sales role I do not have much to benchmark it against, the role I will be doing is more of a product sales role for the operating businesses of the firm, I have about 10 years banking experience but not much of an idea as to what the competitive salary would be for my equivalent out in Asia..any pointers will really be appreciated.
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I think you need to explain clearly that you are a family of 5 rather than a single guy and as a result there are additional costs involved. I think it would help to get someone involved (out here) that has a similar profile i.e. expat with kids
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"when you rent a place, also take into account your monthly airconditioning/electricity cost.
that can easily cost $1500 per month."
Depends on size. We pay over 3k for three beds in summer and we're on the very low end among the people we know in our building. Many are over 6k. I guess we're stingy with the coolness. ;)
"food is also very expensive compared the US or Canada.
there are no big discount places such as COSTCO where you can save by buying by Bulk.
Milk, strawberries, beef, chicken is at LEAST double what is costs in North America."
This needs to be qualified. Western food is very expensive. "Local" food is not. Also if you avoid buying meat and fish in the supermarket and go for wholesalers like Leo's or Woo Hong Hing you'll save thousands per month. It is very much worth shopping around for imported food.
"1.2 mil HKD is a good package for VP ? I do not think so."
VP means different things in different companies. In finance it is typically a low to middle management title. In manufacturing, it is typically an upper management title.
"I think you need to explain clearly that you are a family of 5 rather than a single guy and as a result there are additional costs involved. I think it would help to get someone involved (out here) that has a similar profile i.e. expat with kids"
Agreed. Most companies who have not previously sent people to Asia have no comprehension of the cost of schooling, housing and western food here. I recommend you point them at a good relocation agency like Santa Fe, Cartus or Sterling so they can get some real info.
I also highly recommend you ask for an orientation/cross-cultural training package from one of said companies. This is invaluable for new arrivals.
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I could live very well on that package! $30K will get you a place in Quarry Bay, Tai Koo, Sai Wan Ho easily.
Your main problem school wise is if you have a child who's in the 4-5 age range as you'd need to be applying nowish depending which school. Kids born in 2007 will start the ESF, for example, in 2012, so need to apply this September. There is no space in the ESF for the coming September & I would think other schools are full too.
I don't know where these people who think food is expensive in HK get their groceries, maybe CitySuper etc. axptguy is right. As for a/c etc, we pay about $2K/month in summer, but we had neighbours who faced the opposite way got a great breeze and rarely ran the a/c! I wouldn't worry about it on your package though.
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"I don't know where these people who think food is expensive in HK get their groceries, maybe CitySuper etc."
CitiSuper is indeed one of the culprits, as are Great, Three-Sixty, Marketplace by Jason's and International. I can't believe my friends who pay 350-400/kg for salmon at a grocery store when we pay 90/kg at Leo's, especially as it is the same salmon since Leo's delivers to that grocery store!
For A/C I recommend ceiling fans in every room. The initial investment is paid off in about a year in lowered electricity bills.
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HI axptguy, could you advise where Leo's is?? Any web link? many thanks!
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We use a place in Sai Kung which is even cheaper than Leos. But you need to know where it is. Link below is the best I can do. It's essentiall behind the new(ish) bar on Yi Chun street. And they deliver to the island.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=sai+kung+hong+kong&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.77044,78.837891&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Sai+Kung,+Hong+Kong&ll=22.380345,114.271304&spn=0.0019,0.002406&t=h&z=19
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F100
14 yrs ago
Most of my friends buy their meats from either Wellcome, Park n Shop,Olivers, Great, or City Super.
It is definitely more expensive than in North America.
It definitely is cheaper if you go to the wet market and buy your meats, however, most expats don't do this. I think if you ask most expats, the places above is where they do most of their shopping.
Fruits and vegetables are much cheaper and usually of a better quality at the local market.
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F100
14 yrs ago
Thanks Axptguy for the LEO tip.
I will try them out.
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Thanks Boddington, do you have a name for that particular shop??
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I think the wife does. Will check later. It's very local but they have a product list in English which you can point to. It's essentially 2 units full of freezers. It's all imported from Aus/NZ mostly. As an example a whole tenderloin will knock you back around 250-300 dollars.
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Sorry to hijack thread, BUT i just checked LEo's website and T-BOne steak on special is still over $100 per kilo more expensive than AUstralia. Any other suggestions for well priced, quality meat?
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rwbhk
14 yrs ago
From the ESF Website - the trend of shortages continues
"This year, 2,893 children are competing for 1,278 Year 1 places, an application number which is 38% higher than in 2008. For Year 7 admission, applications have gone up by 55% to 445 competing for 130 places."
Be careful...
If you cannot get your kids into school in HK, and have your employer's support to do this, then it will be a difficult transition.
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"HI axptguy, could you advise where Leo's is?? Any web link? many thanks!"
http://www.leosfinefood.com.hk/ - Note that they are wholesale so you need to buy the whole piece. You can't just get, say, two slices of tenderloin. Certainly not as cheap as Australia or the US but in HK terms very good value.
Another favorite for meat and (some) fish is - Woo Hing Hong Frozen Meats on the corner of Leighton Road and Matheson Street in CWB (close to Times Square). I call it the morgue because the walls are all freezer hatches. ;)
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The quality of the meat at Woo Hing Hong is no-where as good as that at the other places. You really need to use a place that supplies the western restuarants rather then the passing local trade.
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"Regarding ESF schools does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumopur that if you went to an ESF school yourself your kids skip the waiting list?"
There is some truth to that. Children of alumni get priority. However siblings have even higher priority.
I am reasonably sure the priority ranking is as follows:
- Corporate surety programme.
- Siblings of current students.
- Children of faculty and staff.
- Children of alumni.
- Applicants from ESF Kindergarten (for Primary) or ESF Primary (for Secondary).
- Applicants with English but no Cantonese.
- Cantonese speakers.
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rwbhk
14 yrs ago
ESF Priority is as follows - Cat 1 get preference
Category One
Children who speak English as a first or alternative language but do not speak Cantonese and/or read and write Chinese characters.
Category Two
Children who can access the local system but who also meet ESF's entrance requirements.
Within each category priority for interview will be given to students who:
1.are siblings of children already attending an ESF school;
2.are attending an ESF Educational Services Ltd Kindergarten (for Year One only);
3.are former students returning from a period overseas;
4.have a parent who is a full-time employee of ESF;
5.are the children of former ESF students.
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Thanks rwbhk for clarifying! But what about corporate surety programme? Where does that slot in?
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Whether you earn enough in HK depends completely on the lifestyle you want to have, and in particular, whether you are the type of person who is influenced by other people's spending patterns. I earn a school teacher's salary and have a very comfortable lifestyle. My two children go to local schools and we eat out at local-type places. We have a couple of overseas trips a year. We have a seaview apartment. We save. I have friends earning perhaps 10 times what I do, and they still moan about the cost of living. Be careful where you settle and who you choose to spend your time with. The package they are offering you puts you in the top 5% (probably even less) of HKers. You'll survive. Well.
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So what happens if you can't get your English speaking expat kid into a P1 and are commited to HK long-term?! I have often been wondering this. I have about 1.5 years before it really becomes an issue in my family but seriously, the poor little kiddo won't get his/her basic education? REALLY? This is INSANE.
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I find all this whining from expats so extraordinary re schooling. There are many schools in Kowloon and New Territories that are suitable. Perhaps if more expats moved out of the ghetto that is the mid-levels they will see this.
The local school system is always available and your little one can pick up a second language. Chinese will be arguably more important when junior graduates so might as well get them started early. In P1, expat kids are not that far behind local kids in Chinese. There are also Chinese tudors available for extra work.
You cannot expect a Chinese city to guarantee an English education. Many immigrants to the US/canada did not lament the lack of schooling in their native language. You can keep the kids in home country and you stay to work in HK, or give up the job and move home or any of the other options mentioned.
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HK is a bit of a special case given the still quite recent colonial heritage. So "requesting" an English language education is perhaps not that "out there".
However I do agree that there are international schools with available spots off Island.
expatinhk, you have applied for schools right? And not just one. 4-5 at least.
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We have been here for 12 years and will be here for at least another 12 more. The job my husband has makes him bound to HK. As our first bub gets closer to starting school I am struggling with lots of concepts. I don't really want to push my girl to know several foreign languages by the age of 5, she can pick it up if she likes languages at her own will. As long as she knows English superbly and has exposure to another foreign language (which she does as we are a bi-lingual family), I am happy. Also I read in the last weeks SCMP about the pressure the local schools put on the kids. in P1 someone was doing homework till 2am or something like that every day... so I want a school that doesn't require a huge commute, and that will allow her to be a kid. Is this possible?
Axptguy we put an application into 2 schools Are we screwed then?
What to do? :-))
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Move house closer to school. Then the kid's commute is not that long.
I know HK is a special case, and that is why the ESF is there for. There are also local schools that use the English medium. There are also the main international schools on HK Island and also many international schools in the NT and Kowloon side. To the poster that has been here 12 years, none of this should be news to you. You have such a long leadway to get your kid into the right school. BTW AIS is in the middle of Kowloon Tong correct? That's the centre of Kowloon.
To the ones that come over in June and expect their kids in school by Aug - good luck, but I think the blame is in the bad planning on your part. But even still, you can put your kid in a local stream for the first year and start looking for other spots in the meantime.
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Local school as a short term solution only (ie first year). Then try to get kid into a school more to your liking.
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Well put madtown. Homework is an overrated thing and I don't really think a lot of homework makes for a better education.
"Axptguy we put an application into 2 schools (GSIS and Kellet), both said thank you you are the last priority. No sibblings, no corporate or any other debentures, no German or English nationality. Are we screwed then?"
Sorry to say "pretty much". You need to apply for 5 schools nowadays and preferably at birth if the school allows it.
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I am really confused about all this.
1. Philly Cheese - so are you saying it's easier to get into a school further down but harder with P1? Why is that? From the very little I know about kids psychology changing schools, teachers, friends etc too often when they are so little is not particularly good.
2. Axptguy - we placed her name at about 4 months but the schools say the date of application is the last decision making criteria. I know there will be so many other families in front of us because of a sibblings priority, corporate debentures, nationalities and whatever else these schools come up with.
ESF I only hear terrible things about, teachers staying for a few months then moving on, not much consistency in what is taught etc. IS this true.
And ror those parents that support the balance-minded education, which schools are good? HK Isl please as I honestly refuse to move the whole family because a 5 year old needs to start school!
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Unfortunately nowadays there are so many siblings and debentures "normal" applicants have a hard time. You did the right thing applying early but the situation is of course unfortunate.
I think PhillyCheese means that you can stay on waiting lists and simply "wait it out". You may well get in eventually.
"ESF I only hear terrible things about, teachers staying for a few months then moving on, not much consistency in what is taught etc."
Which school do those kids go to? Granted we only have experience with Bradbury but this is very very far from our impression. Teachers have been the same all year except for one who moved to a vice-principal position in another ESF school mid-year. He was replaced by a teacher who was already a substitute so not really a new face. Teaching is according to IB Primary Years and seems "consistent" and well planned. The teachers work very hard and have a great attitude. Principal and vice principal are available for queries and respond to emails promptly. Information sessions before school started were great. Our daughter has learned so much this year and she likes to go to school. A very positive environment overall. We have been extremely impressed.
Other parents I have spoken to are also happy. For that matter, I have not really heard negative comments from parents who have kids at some other ESF schools (Kennedy, SIS).
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expatinhk, what I am saying is you have been here 12 years. Getting your kid into a good school should not be as big an issue for you as for someone who just got here. It is a question of relativeness. Those that just arrive have much fewer choices and all I am saying is that the local school system, although not everyone 1st choice is always a fallback option. It is proably better than keeping them out of school altogether. That plus some flexibility on the parents' side (ie I think the expectations of some are misplaced) will help too.
I am not saying it is easier to get into P2 as it is to get into P1. But when you have no choice it is better to get them into a school than to keep them out. Kids are resilient, and moving schools will not traumatise them. Obviously, if you move them multiple times then it could become an issue. Plus HK is transient place and people leave. If you keep in contact with schools it is not unheard of to accept kid part way through the year due to departures.
That is how my eldest got into his school. He started there in P1 and not reception like the other kids in his class. He got a call back interview when all the interviews were done and got in. He did not get an initial interview because we had no debenture, no siblings, no alumni. He got the call back because a kid left, I was able to obtain a corp debenture in the meantime and continued to keep in touch with the school administrators. He stared at that school 1 week after school started. This is only one example so I know its possible (give hope to others). We put him in a Eng/Mando nursery school and an Eng/Mando kindy, so at the interview he was able to perform in both Eng and Mando. So the planning beforehand did work for us.
ESF - cannot generalise. There are some that are really good, and there are some that have horror stories. Some of it the school's fault, some just not the right fit for the student. Same can be said for local schools. DBS, DGS, St Paul's, Queens College, LaSalle, Mary Knoll are some of best schools out there, and they are public schools. Same can be said about internationl schools. CIS, SIS, French, GSIS and CDNIS have many fantastic facilities and teachers, whereas one of the, if not the most expensive in HK (won't name) have had some horror stories with kids and drugs, computer theft, etc. I've also heard many good things about Kellett, Bradbury, Kennedy, ISF. There are many other good schools that I have left off, and if you want to do something different the International Montessori School is fantastic - not only is it full Eng/Mando but the classes are small, not a lot of homework, co-operation encouraged, active participation from the administrators and located on Southside of island. Apply to many schools (only cost a grand or so in most cases) to keep options open.
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IMS is a great school but it is only on the South Side for the first couple of years. After that you are in the new campus Tin Hau. Still a great school.
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back to the homework issue for a bit...certainly homework just for the sake of 'getting in all of the material for that unit' is pointless. However, there are valuable lessons about independent learning and personal responsibility that should be part of every child's education, not only at school but at home as well. Granted homework amounts should be age appropriate, but a P1 student should be exposed to SOME independent work so they begin to make an effort to 'find the answers' themselves...
Another point that is often lost on expat parents is the fact that Chinese language (esp. reading and writing) required ALOT of dedication and rote learning...you MUST memorize a basic set of characters to be able to combine them later into other meaningful characters...and Chinese teachers can't spend (in many cases) precious little class time on memorization exercises and dictation...if you go into a full immersion Chinese school, you will have alot more time and exposure, but for parents who prefer a bilingual school and a reasonably bilingual child, home practice in reading, writing and speaking is a given...
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