Posted by
gognomen
19 yrs ago
I've been offered a teaching job in a secondary school which offers up to $HK 47000 per month with a further $HK10000 per month living expenses. Removal expenses are also covered.
Is this OK? Could I live on this?
All help appreciated. Thanks.
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Saint
19 yrs ago
You certainly could. Some mainscale international teachers average between 40-50k with little inclusion of living expenses (depending on how many years you've been teaching). whether it is enough for you depends on your life style and if you want to live with anyone.
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HKD57k is around what you would expect for a middle manager in a multi-national company. At around GBP4,000 per month with a low tax rate, it is very liveable.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
Komat, you are just being nasty. What other reason can you have to write? You should know that there are no suc things as stupid questions, only stupid answers - your above posts prove that. Your comments add nothing to this question and just show ignorance and jealousy. This person is clearly not living in HK, and has no idea of the costs here (HK has a reputation of being very expensive). Oh, and English teachers here in HK do get paid that amount and more, depending on experience. They'd teach you about prepositions and that you agree 'with' someone but agree 'to' a proposal.
It always amazes me how people constantly think teachers are overpaid. Yes I will grant you that the pay for teachers in international schools in HK is very good, but I think it's a cheap shot to roll out the old 'teachers get paid toom much' argument. The point is they are not local teachers - if the international schools thought the local teachers were suitable they'd hire them. But they are not and the expat teachers bring skills, knowledge and experience that the local teachers don't have.
Hell in my line of work, a person responsible for managing, training and assessing the number of employees that say, an average size class has - lets call it 25 people, is on a lot more than what the person who posted this thread is saying they will be paid. Add to that the societal, moral and parental leadership roles most teachers all take on with children and I sure as hell would not accept the package!
And if you want to look at a results based situation, well most of the international schools here in HK compete very well with their UK or US counterparts.
Gog: Ignore Kom. That package should allow you to live comfortably in HK. Obviously the type of lifestyle you want will impact that comfort level but basically you'll be able to stay in a decent flat eat well and travel most holidays - but it depends on what other costs you generally incur. If you are married and have kids, want a huge flat in the best part of town, want to drive a car etc. But on the face of it the package seems decent. What about gratuity?
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Todge
19 yrs ago
Andrea I agree - people leave their children with you - expect you to teach then nurture them and help turn them into good, decent citizens, then expect to pay a pittance for it. Amazing - you get what you pay for and teaching is no different. HK is one of the highest paying teaching posts in the world - the competition for jobs is tough and as a result the teaching standard is usually very high. Good people go to where the money is.
Even the HK government agrees which is why they pay their NET teachers so well. And these are teachers sometimes working alongside local teachers on half the pay. Why? Because of the skills and experience they bring. It's the same in any industry.
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ness
19 yrs ago
In support of our wonderful teachers can I just say that I think that they are worth every penny. They work long hours in a demanding mostly inflexible work environment (no long lunches or quickly nipping out to the shops to pay a bill). They have not only 30 little clients but the 60 parents as well to keep happy. I just saw our kndergarten teacher handing out money to all the children in her class that had forgotten to bring money for a cookie sale today - she will not mention that to parents who forgot but does it to keep the children happy. They are very dedicated and the teaching standard is high. Perhaps not that much higher than in a high socioeconomic area in Australia or England but high. If the schools do not offer good salaries then how on earth will they attract the high calibre, experienced teachers willing to relocate with families etc. With rents and school fees the level that they are here in HK by the time you have found a flat for a family of five and paid 15K a month for school fees plus extra for bus transport plus healthcare for a family and flights back to home country then 50K a month is not looking all that excessive to me. Most experienced teachers do have children and spouses (who now can't work unless they are also sponsored).
If you only want to attract young single inexperienced teachers who are not as stable then I guess you don't need to offer quite so much.
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I earn less than half that as a teacher here, and survive OK.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
Gaffer:
Teachers aren't solely responsible for a child's mind, get real - you can just as easily blame a whole raft of other things 'when things go wrong'. But teachers are an important part of a child's development - they are role models and instructors. There is an oldsaying "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you" and that applies to the teacher-student relationship. How many do they get 'right', a lot more than the 'mistakes' you are harping on about. Mistakes that are not solely their fault. You tell me - how many students from international schools have gone on to be hookers, drug addicts? How many from locals schools? How many from any school? Anywhere? What point are you trying to make. How many go on to be doctors, research scientists, bankers? Give me some hard facts and I'll accept your statement.
As for the suicides, well tragic as I'm sure they are, are you really blaming the teachers? My god! Sure they had a hand in the child's development, but are you telling me you are so completely clueless about psychology that you actually believe the teachers are solely to blame?
As for the bad apples statement, well of course there are going to be teachers that aren't as good as others - do you work? Look around you, that's the nature of the world - everyone is different, some people are better than others, this is not something that education has a monopoly on. I've worked with people better than me on less money and the other way around - unless you think all jobs should be commission based?
Why do we work? Money usually, when you get right down to it - I'm here for it. So are you probably. So are many teachers I'm sure. So what's your point Gaffer? The fact that I'm here for the money doesn't mean I do a job any less professionally than if I wasn't. I still like my job, but the money sure makes me like it just that little bit more. I'm guessing teachers are the same, nothing wrong with that.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
Kom:
So you're saying that you can't determine the general meaning the statement "Could I live on this?". When some says that they generally don't literally mean will this be enough for me to buy 14 bowls of rice a week. I think you're clutching at straws a bit here. Like I said: no silly questions only silly answers.
NET scheme = Native English Teachers - how many local teachers fit that bill. The NET teachers have skills the government considers important to the future of HK. It's simple economics, in order to attract NET teachers they must pay them - pay them to teach, pay them to leave their country and live in HK, pay them to work in a school where they are most likely the only native English speaker. I would say that NET teaching is a 'hardship posting', if the HK Govt wants the skills they must attract them - money is the main way to do that.
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cd
19 yrs ago
47K is a good salary if you're single, or even if you're a couple, and you could get a decent place for 10k, but add children into the equation and it doesn't go far. Average of 7K a month to send a child to school here, more if its international school, plus after school activities of at least 2k a term per child, often more, even with only 2 kids that will really eat into your salary. If its just you, you will be able to live very well, and see a lot of Asia on that.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
Gaffer:
What should we do then? Public floggings for teachers if one of their students does drugs - I'm sure that teachers are pained when they hear that a student has died, failed at life etc. It's a bit simplistic to say they aren't, and that society should somehow punish them - are the parents punished? TV stations? Their friends?. C'mon now.
Also, what about other professions where the expat community gets paid more than the local workforce. No, what gives me the *&^% is the ease at which so many people think it's acceptable to take a cheap jab at teachers. You don't hear people complaining about how much bankers get on these forums do you?
I never said local teachers were worse teachers, per se, just that they are generally less suitable for international school positions - or for that matter English language teacher positions - than a native English speaking teacher of English. The key here is English proficiency - I have no doubt some international schools hire locals as teachers whose English is good enough. Mandarin teachers for example are proabaly not from the UK - but they would still need a high standard of English - given the meduim of instruction.
You are saying that I'm high and mighty for local teachers who can't speak English fluently can't work in a school where the meduim of instrucion is English? Have I got that right?
How many times on this site have people lamented not being able to a job because they don't speak Cantonese/Mandarin? And what's the general smart a** response? Go and learn the language. Same applies to this situation.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
The original poster is going to have puppies when they check back in, lol
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Todge
19 yrs ago
It was the inability of the local English teachers to maintain standards of English that led to the NET program.
I'm sure local teachers are all fine and dandy in their respective areas, but they can't compare to a native English speaking English teacher. Just as an Australian Mandarin language teacher would not compare to a native Mandarin speaking Mandarin teacher. (say that fast 5 times :)
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GB is right. The poster hasn't actually said anything since posting the original message. She has problem seen people's views and made up his/her own mind about how other expats will look at her.
There are many teachers on your salary and you will not be looked upon grudgingly by any expats you come accross, because most of them you do, including the one's whinging here, are all probably making at least double that.
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CA - never knew you're a teacher on the NET scheme.
Out of interest, what makes you think you're a much better teacher? Are you really good or are the teachers here crap?
How do you think the NET scheme can be improved, or is it all right and just gets bad press?
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Local teachers are paid very well!!! In my wifes pay slip one day was a spreadsheet of everybodies salary in her school. And as she was a net teacher with the maximium years of experience for her pay scale was not even in the top 75%.
I hope gognoman it is not the NET scheme as the crap dumped on you is still not worth $57000.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
Well, Andrea let's look at it this way; at least we are here defending the high wages you and your fellow expat teachers get in HK, not lamenting low ones. Ignore Komat, it was her ignorant post that started this whole side debate in the first place.
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Andrea's views on neural circuits is way off!!
I'm a native English speaker and can speak Mandarina and Cantonese fluently. I can use Chinese at a business level.
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Good salary for single person or couple. Kids would add a huge expense. Hong Kong is fun, teaching in ESF or International school would be great. Teaching in the NET or PNET scheme requires a lot of adjustments. You will need enormous amounts of determination, a very thick skin and a healthy sense of humour. It's all madness but things are moving forward slowly. As is said so many times it is a lottery. You might get a school with a far sighted principal who is happy to promote English, co teaching, co planing, teacher and curriculum development or you might get some post colonial maniac who will take sadistic pleasure in trying to ruin your life just as he/she has ruined the lives of all the poor unfortunate locals who also work in that environment. If you want more information just let me know.
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One point, The PNET scheme is not an easier job than a local teacher unless the local school refuses to implement part of the program. Teaching is only one third of the PNET's work load. They are also expected to spend one third of their time on professional development of the local teachers and one third of their time on curriculum development. Comparing local teachers jobs with the PNET scheme is irrelevant. Some local teachers believe that hours of mindless marking, long hours siting at your desk, endless pointless meetings, pointless exams, and slavishly following the text book equates to good teaching. Ex pats tend to be more focussed on results and questioning the systems in place. Personally I believe that the expats are helping the locals to question the systems and methodologies and will help the local teachers develop the voice and confidence to bring the madness to an end. I hope so for the sake of the kids.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
Gaffer> Andrea probably finds it amazing that you are unable to see what every international school inHK and the HK Gov itself has acknowledged - local teachers are worse at teaching English than Expat teachers.
Lets argue that you are right, how do you then explain the high salary and existence of expat teachers here? How do you explain the NET scheme. Back up your comments as Andrea does. Give evidence of local teachers excelling where expats don't. Because the evidence for Andrea's side is in her wage and her job here.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
btw, maybe this should move to speaker's corner, its hardly practical anymore.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
OK, let's talk about teaching in general.
That retraining you mention, I think is Andrea's main argument why local teachers are lacking compared to expat teachers. She'd not saying it's their fault, just a fact. The training for teachers here is of a lower standard than elsewhere in the world, I'm sure, otherwise teachers would come from around the globe to study here, not be asked by international schools and the HK govt to come and work here.
And while I agree that the system is mainly to blame, that does not mean the teachers are any better. They are a product of the system.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
I don't think acknowledging a generally known fact is disrespectful. In my field there are people who have gone through local university, and others who went through MIT - saying the training at one is better than the other is not disrespectful. It's factual.
As for everything else, well the goverment disagrees with you on salary - for they know that in order to make people want to come to HK, work in the conditions local schools have - and that's not just clean floors, that's social, and professional as well - costs money. The HK gov't is not generous, if they could pay less they would, but that's the price for having expat teachers - you don't like it. So? Don't blame the teachers, blame the government.
As for the money needed to survive, my lifestyle here is no better - actually in many ways it's worse - than I had back in Oz. I had a huge house, 2mins form the beach, fresh fruit and veges I didn't have to wash for 30 mins before eating, and convenience in getting things done. But I chose to lose some of those home comforts for the money here. It takes a higher wage for me to meet some of the standards I had back home. I don't want to live in the fashion that many locals live - nor does the original poster I'm sure. I don't think he meant, will $57000 buy me a tin roof and 14 bowls of rice a week, he wants to know if that wage will allow him to live a similar lifestyle to the one he already has at home. $57000 a month will probably come close.
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Totally agree with Rope Guy.
Pls stop this never ending story and stick to the point of what poster want to know.
gognomen,
$57,000 is good enough for you to live on.
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gognomen This thread speaks for itself Hong kong people have many issues with the expats. Expats have many issues with the locals. Petty people have issues with everybody. Come here for the experience it is well worth it. If you are lucky you will be given a position in a school that is not to rough. If not you will at least have many stories to tell when you return home. Good Luck
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Wow! I have just checked in since making the original posting and had to print the whole thing 22 pages!
Well I'm glad that the package seems worth while. The only issue that may stand in my way now is age - I'm 50+ years!
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The latest from the EMB is that teachers on the PNET scheme can continue beyond 60. Due to the shortage. Don't worry about the age issue. A lot of the PNETs here are older. We have Ozzy headmasters, many with 20 plus years experience. HK is so lucky to have these talented and dedicated people trying to help the kids and the local teachers.
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Woops, a lot of the senior teachers are female of course.
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C
19 yrs ago
Another load of rubbish has to do with those "neural circuits" that can't be programmed. Sorry dear, unless I'm surrounded by exceptions to the rule, there are a hell of a lot of ppl who are fluent in more than one language, the second one being learned way, way after the 6 month mark.
Andrea, from where does this "fact" come from - enlighten us please.
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tia
19 yrs ago
Yes, with the salary you can live off it. If it is with the NET programme, it is the high end and you better be prepared to jump through hoop after hoop to prove your qualifications.
This has been an interesting read. Funny, even in Canada, teachers got the "You have too many holidays and make to much money" argument. We do not get over time but many of us are working long into the night and on weekends. Yes, we get summers off, but again, much of that time is often spent in school getting ready.
As for the argument about 'coasting' after the 1st 2 years once the lesson plans are done. I admit to trying that in Canada but, as all teachers will sadly discover, no class is the same. What worked with Group A last year will fail miserbaly with Group B this year. Curriculums change. Books change. Technology happens. We have to be ready to go with the flow.
I have watched some of my LET's teach and it is good and bad. GOod in the sense that they can bail a kid out in Cantonese if need be (which is something i wish I could do at times). Bad because they tend to rely on the text WAY too much and never vary from the scheme of work. True, time constraints are all around us and we must get everything done on time to make it for the next standardized test. HOwever, there are ways to infuse a little life into the programme, which I would like to think I bring. (This makes me think of the Simpsons episode where they stole the teacher's editions...hee hee).
Teachers are expected to be more than just teachers. We are social workers, mum, dad, doctors, dictionaries, and social workers. Kids are getting worse - be it from society or many other sources. I do have to agree that my kids in my school are good for the most part. I have been with my school 1.5 years and I love it. Some days, I would gladly trade one of my classes for a knock-off rolex and a cheap flight home. However, I feel that I am just getting started here in HK with my career and I will not give up so easily. It takes a year, or 2, maybe even 3 to get to know the system here, as well as the studens and staff. This, in someways, has been the easiest teaching job of my career and in other ways, the most challenging.
Perhaps, before other people start NET-bashing, they should switch jobs with us for a week. I bet some people would not be able to survive a day!
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Andrea can you name some good writers in Neuro linguistics. I am only familiar with Chomksy and a few Neo Chomskians.
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Hana
19 yrs ago
Gotta say that after reading the above posts, there are things that I would disagree with from both parties.
Gaffer: I think that if teachers get paid the amount they do then it is because of market conditions. Whether or not it is deserved can be debated for any individual in any field.
Andrea and to the person who posted with the reply to the issue of respect: Andrea, if you are really the quality of the teacher that you say you are, and even if you have observed the things that you say you have, you are the best example of the fact that knowledge doesn't necessarily equate with wisdom. Slagging off local teachers does not benefit you one iota or show you in your best light. And you only have to be human to know that everyone has something to offer and that any judgement is subjective, whether or not it is in accord with the token view of the time. Respect given to anybody is never wasted.
Teachers spend all this time in the classroom making sure that everyone's voice is heard, that criticism is always constructive, always talking and teaching the values of being 'kind', of 'being' fair and then throw it all out the window as soon as they themselves leave the classroom or just assume that other adults don't deserve similar treatment.
As for being annoyed about other people insulting this field, shrug it off. You'd never have made it as a lawyer.
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I never claimed that Chomsky was anything but a linguist! Did I claim he was a Neurolinguist - whatever that is? I am just interested in the cut off dates for language acquisition that Andrea talks about. My interest in Chomsky et al is the idea of the LAD (Language Acquistion Device) and inate language skills / native accents.
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C
19 yrs ago
A number of us have raised the question to present the facts backing up the so-called "cut-off" date, whether its 6 months or 9 months or 69 months. I'd be interested to learn what (pseudo?) science this is based upon and make up my own mind, rather than have a teacher or anyone else present this to me as "facts".
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C
19 yrs ago
'Andrea' If you would just chill for a moment and back up your statements with facts the 1st time around, without presenting such a defensive tone yourself, mind you, we all might learn something here. Your continued refusal to do speaks volumes. Kind of ironic, isn't it, you being a teacher and all?
You are right, what I believe is of little consequence to you or many others. I'm purely interested in the type of people who I may be paying to teach my children and what they consider to be right or not.
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Andrea, I see by the sheer number of postings written by you that you are not one of the 'over worked, too busy, no time' type of teachers. It seems that you finish teaching early and race home just to read what someone has written about you.
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C
19 yrs ago
Let me spell it out so it's clear: where is the reference that states that one's linguistic neural circuits cease after a set point in time?
Googling "neurolinguistics" turns up some pretty dry stuff, but I couldn't find anything that supports your particular view.
The point I'm getting at is what kind if teacher I would like to have teaching my children. Among the many qualities I would like them to have, an open-mind would be among them.
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C
19 yrs ago
Lola,
What other qualities? You've covered 2 good ones, yourself. I like to think yes, I do have an open mind, and that it's not unreasonable to ask this from a teacher.
Barbie,
Does that sound like Mary Poppins? I think you're reading too much into what I wrote, dear.
For the record I don't have any kids. That doesn't disqualify me from entertaining the question, now does it?
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Hana
19 yrs ago
Gaffer,
I'm not a lawyer btw and I don't earn obscene amounts of money (at least according to your standards)... in fact in HK circles I would probably be considered in the borderline poverty zone...
Would I like to earn 57G?
Why not?
Wish everyone could earn 57G!
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Irish Lout
Are you really Irish? I love to see you here because Irish are really good fighters (^-^).
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C
19 yrs ago
As a layman and not a teacher, it seems to me it is difficult for someone to "teach well" if they don't feel inclined to entertain alternative views. You may consider this an open mind or not, and you can substitute "manage well" in place of "teach well". I recognize there are a number of facets describing the ideal qualities for any particular job, and in each unique case there may also be qualities that supercede this one aspect no doubt.
However in this particular forum, so far one person has presented herself as an authority on the subject and is unable to present any references to back up the one single statement regarding the area she professes to be expert in. She may be an excellent teacher/administrator/linguist in all other respects, but it doesn't show through here.
After a certain level, the "take my word for it because I'm a teacher and you're not" approach won't work, and it's reasonable then to expect a teacher to have relevant facts available to backup the material presented.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
C> I'm not at all interested in the month a baby has to hear different languages before it has an accent but 30 seconds on the net gave me this reference which seems to back up Andrea's assertion.
http://www.unicog.org/publications/PallierVentureyra_adoptees_phonetics_2003.pdf
I'm quite sure Andrea is a fine teacher and treats her students well. I very much doubt you would want me to sum you up by your posts alone.
C> this may come as a surprise, but not everyone is answerable to you! Ever heard of a library? This is a message board, not a senate hearing. In under 30 seconds I found this document - you could not have looked very effectively or hard in your previous search.
But just in case you're too lazy to actually open the above doc and bother yourself to read it, here's the relevant part:
"Language acquisition research has demonstrated that the attunement to the phonemes of the native language takes place during the first
year of life: by age 10 to 12 months, infants are already less sensitive to non-native phonetic contrasts than to native contrasts"
They don't put an actual date down, but this seems to back up Andrea's posts. I haven't read the entire doc - don't intend to, but the wording suggests the quote contains generally accepted facts, not some hypothesis they are out to disprove.
May be time for an apology to Andrea.
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C
19 yrs ago
Todge, Unlike yourself I am interested in this aspect of learning/teaching/speaking, and previously googled neurolinguistics to see what would turn up. I will bow to your superior searching skills but that's about it.
The original statement made was "(after 6 months) neural circuits are laid down and 'stop'....(I don't have) the neural circuits to hear the differences between the sounds uttered in Cantonese or Putonghua (and neither...do you)"
Unfortunately, your document doesn't support that. A few lines under yours, there is an explicit caveat that "not very much is known about the sensitivity to phonemes heard only in infancy or early childhood". Further, the conclusions are rather the opposite to what you percieve from (your own lazy...?) interpretation of the same document: "This suggests that extensive reexposure may be an essential factor in the recovery of phonetic knowledge, which may be present but difficult to retrieve."
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C
19 yrs ago
Bearing in mind that I haven't suggested any person or profession on this board is under/overpaid, all I have pointed out is that 1 person who has presented herself as an authority on the subject has failed to take the opportunity to support her argument, where is this defensiveness coming from?
Certainly I don't expect anyone to be answerable to me, nor do I suspect any of you expect the same in return. If Todge is sure that Andrea is a fine teacher, I'm so very happy that is.
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Todge
19 yrs ago
C> I think Andrea supported her argument as well as anyone else on this forum - how many people actually provide references to their comments - maybe we should all start!
As I stated, I don't care about this subject, and wouldn't waste my time reading the doc. My post was simply to illustrate that the info is out there to prove of disprove Andrea's comments and for you to get off your butt and look for yourself rather than continue the childish slanging match with Andrea that has gone on for what? 4 days?
And from what you say of the doc, although it certainly may not support the theory, if "not very much is known", then it certinaly does not disprove it.
Tell you what: Why don't you approach HKU and do a PhD on it, then you can post back here and we can all sleep better knowing if 6mths or 7mths or whatever is the date. Geez, get over it.
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C
19 yrs ago
Truly those are the words of a deep thinker indeed.
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tia
19 yrs ago
Quite true CA. We are held to a higher standard in some areas than other professionals. We do not have many of the freedoms afforded to other professionals either, such as more flexible working hours if needed and the opportunity for 'private practice' - unless one wants to be a tutor, which may not be worth it.
We do the same things as every other person on this planet. Just because we are in the education field does not mean we can not hope for better pay and working conditions and be able to have a life outside of the classroom. Teaching in small towns taught me that you are a teacher 24/7.
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MaryO
13 yrs ago
I'm surprised that (trained) teachers feel it necessary to defend, or even expose, their earnings to ubiquitous people like ‘Gaffer’. ‘Gaffer’ clearly is, or was, merely an apologist for the local teachers- it's probably a relationship thing and the need to speak out for the good of his newly adopted homeland- be the hero of the locals and so on.
Surely it's all about balance and roles. As a business person, I realise the need for certain skills from various people which includes the crucial roles of the local personnel. Such a mosaic of skills is crucial to Hong Kong's future as a global society- it has nothing to do with colonialism.
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