How does Hong Kong expat life compare to Tokyo?

We may have the opportunity to move to Tokyo at some point...does anyone have any comments/opinions about how life there compares to Hong Kong? We are currently back in the US, but are anxious to get back to Asia...I realize that Tokyo is different from HK in many ways.

Thanks in advance for any help/advice...

Babette

Never lived in HK but I did live in Japan for 8+ years (up to Christmas 2005) so can offer some one sided advice based on what I know of HK.


• No maids in Japan – at all. You’re on your own in this department.

• Tokyo is MUUUUCH cleaner – both pollution wise and general cleanliness.

• The Japanese are polite to a fault and extremely courteous.

• You can survive, with difficulty, without Japanese language. English helps more than any other language (except Japanese).

• It’s very isolating – not only do you have the language barrier the Japanese are an insular society. If you have a “stay home” spouse she (or he) will take the brunt of this. The number 1 reason expats leave Japan after 12 months is due to their spouse being totally isolated. The entire reason the Tokyo-American club exists is due to this issue.

• No idea what the HK medicine system is like but Japan is 1950s level medicine – lots of western medicines are not available to hard to get. Or you can risk the copy-cat Japanese ones. There doctors are mostly OK since they are mostly trained in the USA but the medical facilities are archaic.

• If you have children schooling is very expensive running to bout 2 million yen a year/child just for tuition.


Bearing these things in mind Tokyo is otherwise a great place to live. Not a good place for children however. Its well worth going IMO and the pay to expense ration is very good. Sydney is a lot more expensive than Tokyo for a comparison. I recommend you read “Dogs and Demons”. Its goes into detail about the “underside” of Japan. Many of the things listed in this book wont be relevant to you for the first few years there but they all contributed to us leaving – but it took 8 years before it got to the point we couldn’t take it anymore.

Actually I disagree with some of the above, in Tokyo's favour. Almost everyone I know who has lived in Tokyo has loved it, and appreciated the chance to live in this amazing place.

1. There are maids in Japan - generally from the Philippines. More expensive than HK but (hopefully) so should be your COLA. Part time is allowable and very common in Japan so it is very easy to have someone a couple of hours / days a week. Live in is not so common as the houses are not generally set up for it as here, although some are. Some apartment blocks have maids quarters. Most maids seem to rent places in groups.

2. I didn't find it difficult to survive without Japanese, although I lived in an expat area where the supermarket and shops were pretty much set up to deal with English speakers. I drove without a problem (and without GPS which is very common in Japan so makes it even easier). Sure I probably missed out on appreciating a lot of what was going on because I didn't have the language but I would call it an adventure, sometimes a challenge rather than "difficult".

3. We were members of the Tokyo American Club and met many friends through this. But also through having children - school and a new mothers group and ANZA has a playgroup. There are lots of Americans here so I am sure they have similar groups. I found that people are more apt to strike up conversations with other expats (we stand out more, generally) they meet in the park etc than here. Many things & friends were within walking distance. Beyond the first 6 months settling in I never felt isolated. Long term expats aren't so common (after 5 years they are taxed at a higher rate for one reason) so you don't get so much of the long termers who can't be bothered meeting new people (and that is not meant to be offensive...constantly going through the getting to know you stage can be very draining)

4. Absolutely agree with the cost of school fees - you really have no choice but an international school. Note that preschools are also very expensive so if relevant, if you can get the company to pay for that as well rather than just school age, all the better.

I have to second sandpiper's opinion and I disagree with solomani about medical system. Although it's not Hong Kong in another language I think your previous expat experience will better equip you to handle any challenges. Hong Kong definitely has a better asiaxpat site than Tokyo. Good Luck.

For the people who are disagreeing with me. Can I ask how long you lived in Japan for? As I said many of the issues I've raised rear their ugly head later. If your there for only 1 to 2 years you never notice them.


You can get a cleaner which is different to a maid. No live ins in Japan. Its in fact illegal to have anything like what you have in HK. They don't want forgeners taking jobs from Japanese.


There medical system is sub-par compared to my only country of reference which is Australia. The author of Dogs and Demons, whose lived in Japan since he was 11, agrees.


As I said your not going to notice a lot of issues if you stay a short time. Long term its going to wear you out.

I should add - your mileage may vary :)

solomani, we were there for three years to 2004 so i agree did not notice the "underbelly" you mention (thankfully) but re the maid thing - they were everywhere. all my friends had at least part time, many full time, a couple had live ins - all from the philippines. if i was alone in the park with my kids at least one would sidle up to me offering her services. my understanding was that they were only available to expats on the basis we could not use local japanese due to the language barrier.

Sandpiper,

That’s interesting information. We checked with multiple lawyers in Japan – both Japanese and English – and there was no legal way to have a maid who wasn’t already sponsored. For example we couldn’t sponsor someone from the Philippines or even from Australia (my mother-in-law). The only legal loophole is if you are number 1 or number 2 in Japan for a company then there is a particular visa you can get to sponsor someone. That’s what we did in the end as my wife was number 2 in her company and we were able to sponsor her mother as a “babysitter”.


I know when we put a call out on Tokyo with Kids we got multiple applications and all of them were from the Philippines embassy. Basically wives/daughters of diplomats who had legitimate visas to work for 3 years in Japan. I had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the only other way to get a maid would be to use an illegal immigrant.


I do know you could hire someone to clean your place and these people were invariably Philippino. But the only person we knew who had a maid for cleaning visited 3 times a week to do the work and she was sponsored on the same visa as we did my mother-in-law by someone else. She was just working on the side. It wasn’t from an agency of any kind, just word of mouth.


Anyway something to keep in mind if we ever go back. Which is always on the cards! Japan is certainly well worth visiting and working at and is probably one of the better places to work in Asia for English speakers. Something I forgot to mention as a plus is safety. Tokyo is the safest country in the world from experience and statistically. That peace of mind is also worth a lot when you have a family.

Actually Solomani you are right - I think you did need to make sure you had a "management" visa to sponsor. But my understanding was that this was a matter of your company presenting your application in the correct way. Apparently there are about 250,000 Philippina maids in Japan. Part time could very well have been illegal - to be honest I never thought about it, it was all very open and I never heard anything to the contrary (could have been the language thing!)Many people sponsored and had the maid work for about 4 days (which I think was break even point for a part timer) rather than full time given the extra cost in Japan (I think about US2,000/month fulltime). The maids pay all their own living expenses, rent etc. The advantage of sponsorship was it gave you rights to "pull rank" if something suddenly came up even if your helper had arranged to work for some one else at that time. Part time when I was there was around 1500Yen/hour + taxi if late night babysitting.


I must say there seemed to be a very different attitude to here - we didn't talk about it much, or complain and they seemed to have freedom about who they worked for once they were here.


I guess the bottom line for anyone going to Japan is if possible work with your HR department to get the right kind of visa to allow you to sponsor a maid, just in case.


Japan is well worth the experience with or without help.

My husband and I stayed for 7 years in Japan. Two years in the country side and five in down town Tokyo. We moved to Hong Kong a year ago and I should say that we MISS Japan so much! Low HK tax is the only thing that stop us from jumping back to Tokyo.

I did not feel the isolation because I started my Japanese courses right away. I met many friends from these classes and after one year I already felt comfortable living there even with my limited Japanese (mastering katakana is important). After 5 years, I can communicate well with the locals.

Shopping could be confusing in the beginning, but you will get used to it. The key is to bring your electronic dictionary to the supermarket and show the Japanese translation of things you need to the store attendants.

Japanese level of service is way above Hong Kong. I complain much more in HK than I did in Japan. The prices there are cheaper too (I paid lower rent and utilities). We had no maid there and did not feel that we need one as well.

One thing for sure: to be able to enjoy Japan as much as I did, you should learn their langguage and culture.

Mita5chome (did you live there by any chance?)

You are 100% right. You need to learn Japanese. Especially if you are the spouse that doesn't work. Apart from expensive TAC fees learning the language is the only way to stop the isolation.


The dictionary thing is a good idea. If we really got stuck we would just say the English name of an item with a Japanese inflection and that worked for us as well. Since Japanese don't tend to rename things in to Japanese like the Chinese do to Mandarin.


The other thing that weighed upon me in Japan was the earthquakes. They didn't bother me while I was single but as soon as I had kids they were a constant stress. Expect 1 shaker a fortnight while there.


Though I must say being in on the 21 st floor of a tall building during an earthquake/shaker. Its quite an experience seeing all the buildings (including yours) sway like trees in the wind.

There are lots of books and dictionary about "easy living/coping" in Japan.

People are much nicer, they will go out of their way to help.

A lot of expats I knew had live-in DH from the Philippines.

Most live in Homat Homes.



However there are also embassy staff who hire DH at a fraction of the "real" hiring fee and allow them to work part-time to compensate.

It is not difficult to hire a DH, you only fill the requirements both by the Japanese and Philippine govt. and it'll be smooth sailing.

Far too easy I think.


In any country leaning the culture and if possible the language will certainly open the door.

There are organizations for everyone including stay-at-home-mom, a number are members of Tokyo International Players and Tokyo Theatre for Children.

CWAJ(College Women's Association of Japan) are membership for those who are college/university graduate that does a lot of thing for charity.


Food is much nicer anywhere you go and many will agree, but in some big cities are more expensive.

And maybe safer as long as you do not loiter in Kabukicho, Shinjuku.

A lot of free magazines for expat, mostly in English.

There are available free or reasonable fee for Japanese learner, you need to ask and read.


Japanese like American and European better in my observation.

More so if they are fair.

Thank you profoundly to all who have replied and offered insight and advice! We now have a little more of an idea of what our life could be life there, though I realize that experiencing it for yourself is completely different! Now we face the decision on whether to try to make that move or stay in the US. We are US citizens but currently living in a city that is also new to us. Our children are very happy here, but my husband and I loved being in Hong Kong-for the most part! (Of course the pollution and some health concerns such as Bird Flu, were always worries, but the low crime rate in HK compared to the US was a big plus and we loved the International school.)