Hong Kong and Anti-Filipino Sentiment

Posted by Ed 14 yrs ago

http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3357&Itemid=189

housed 14 yrs ago

No denying that there is racism against the Filipino community in Hong Kong but to link up racism with a country's immigration policy is a bit far-fetched. Surely it is the right of a country to put limits on their permanent residency and citizenship policies. As far as I can tell, the same limitation on PR exists for domestic helper visas AS THEY DO for diplomatic visas. (i.e. foreign diplomats who come to HK on postings also do not get permanent residence no matter how many years they live here.) I don't see anyone screaming about diplomats being denied their basic human right so why are ppl up in arms when it comes to Domestic Helper visas??

aliendavid 14 yrs ago

There would be crazy abuse there would be no need or QMAS, or immigrations for ROA anymore.

That could mean the whole entire country of Philipines invade on a domestic helpers status and get PR.

Expats pay taxes on their income to the HK government, but the helpers do not. They should be taxed the 15% on their income for the last 7 years to get the right for permanent residence.

YoyoGuy 14 yrs ago

Just follow the principles of the countries in middle east, even if you live here for 40 to 50 years, still you cant be a permanent resident/citizen, you have to go back to your own country once your residence visa is cancelled. they never allow anyone to migrate to their country but they will go all over the world and migrate and demand their rights to practice their own stuff. So I don't think anything wrong with Hongkong's policy makers. I am an expat living in the middle east for the last 17 years but i know one day i have to go back to my native country once I lose my job or attain my retirement age.

NuinHK 14 yrs ago

The DHs are not admitted into HK for talent or special skills. It has always been meant as a "temporary" measure. It has in part made it possible for HK women to enter the labour market. The mere fact taht someone has been legally in a country for a certain number of years would qualify that person for permanent residency/citizenship does not make much sense. Yes, a record of paying taxes should be part of the requirement. Immigration control can be used for racist purposes but not in this case.

Beermoney 14 yrs ago

I am not sure I am right in my thinking so I would like to hear opinion. To answer the question above - A diplomat is in a foreign country (HK) to serve the needs of both the home country (government) as well as serve the passport carriers of the home country. They are not here to contribute to the country they live (HK) other than the contribution of needing local services ect. If their home country ceased to have diplomatic missions, their job would be unnecessary therefore they would not need to be here. I do not quite know what would happen if a diplomat wanted to become a permanent resident to a foreign country. I think some serious questions would be asked of why.

A domestic helper is contributing to the country they live in by performing a function, which the resident population doesn’t always want to perform or cant perform. This is the same for anyone here on a work visa – the company must demonstrate that the skill can’t be found at the local level and that then allows for the labor or skill to be imported. As the domestic helper is contribution to society in a similar way to the rest of the population why then would they not be allowed to have the same rights as the rest of the population. My opinion would be that if you are to accept foreign workers they should all have similar rights.

An argument can be raised that the country may be over populated but I see this as baseless because immigration still gets to control who comes and who doesn't.

Opinions???

KateB 14 yrs ago

@aliendavid

Domestic Helpers don't get taxed because they are earning below the minimum wage. They get a monthly salary of $3000 (some helpers get a little bit more and some less).

NuinHK 14 yrs ago

KateB: indeed DH's receive low pays but it would be simplistic to say that they make $3000/month. They do receive (however little space) room and board and insurance, etc. And yes they do contribute to local economy. That alone is simply not reason enough to become naturalized.

As for the argument for diplomats, that is simply BS. Beermoney is right that diplomats don't deserve any "benefits" from their host countries except what diplomatic protocol affords them.

Susie1 14 yrs ago

Kate the current minimum wage since 29th June is 3,740 hkd, plus helpers should get either food provided or the food allowance of 700 hkd (although this may have gone up). There are some people who pay less but this is if either they are on an old contract, or paying the helper an illegally low wage.

Helpers also get free accommodation, heating/cooling, lighting, and a lot get many more extras, in fact if you compare them to a low wage earning HK 'local' person they do very well, as they don't get all the housing, lighting, heating/cooling etc the FDH's get, plus they don't get the air fares.

The only reason the FDH is here is because they are relatively cheap labour, if more of them got permanent residency they would definately want to bring their families over,initially for work then to become resident. As they would have more so called freedom and not have to live in, they would want more pay to sustain a place of their own here, and the birth rate would go up if they could have husbands and families here.Hk has a very small land mass, and could not cope with the influx of immigrants, extra housing, hospitals, schools , eventually unemployment benefits.

I would say that most people choosing to employ a non-Fillapina, is not to pay them less, but do so because they have had bad experiences with Fillapina helpers that is why their numbers are going down, and they are trying other nationalities of helpers who are less 'street wise'.

dansande 14 yrs ago

Some helpers are even allowed to drink water and breathe air.

commoncomet 14 yrs ago

The problem starts in the Pines because they just treat their own mothers, the helpers, like a commodity. The gov't charges them with every possible tax and it goes right into the pockets of the politicians.

If the Philippine gov't took care of its own citizens they wouldnt be traded openly on the market and wouldnt want to be here in the first place. They would be in the Pines raising their own families.

shem 14 yrs ago

I don't see any racism in government's decision preventing an influx of people coming to Hong Kong. There are around 400,000 foreign nationals, not just Filipinos, who stayed in HK for more than 7 years. And with the addtion of their families, this will be a big problem for the gov't in terms of budget, peace and order and cultural differences. Chinese from the mainland are also subjected to this kind of restrictions. The government should continue giving the helpers fair treatment and acknowledging their contributions in nation buiding.

missprincepessa 14 yrs ago

I look at my own helper, who has been her for 20 years. Hong Kong is her home and she has served it well. I think she should have the right to stay here.

Beermoney 14 yrs ago

I would like to see the rules the same for all imported workers, irrelevant of the job you have been imported for. The reason is that the government has made the decision that imported workers are required so why discriminate based on job function. If no one got PR after 7 years this would be the end of the discussion.

The argument of over population does not hold water because the immigration department still holds the cards as to who get a dependent visa and who does not. You still must demonstrate that the sponsor can support the dependent. If a FDH became a PR their current wage would not be enough to allow this to happen which then forces them to increase the salary by getting a higher paying job or working longer hours.

If a person is willing to do this to enable them to bring their family together, don't they deserve similar opportunities to people who have come from more developed nations and have already educated themselves and achieved that higher salary enabling them to have their family in one place.

The other thing to keep in mind is the cost of living here in HK compared to Indonesia and the Philippines. HK may be perceived a good city to live but you need a pocket full of cash to live well. One family member working here providing for the family back in the mother country can certainly do better than one person working here and then having the whole family here. My point is, I think the PR would give the domestic helpers equal opportunities and don’t see a population explosion.

Susie1 14 yrs ago

Most of the expats here in Hk are doing a particular job on a temporary residents permit, for as long as they are required here, then they move on, are relocated by the company they work for, or they go back to 'base' in their home countries.

There are not many in proportion who stay long term on renewable visa's or indeed want permanent residency.

HK is like Veronica says too small to absorb more people, it is over crowded all ready. Over time Hk will become more part of China, and less of a Special Admin Region, the only reason China is thriving now is that it has lowered its population, by enforced birth control, I cannot see them being happy with the amount of brought in cheap labour which HK has at the moment, China plenty of their own cheaper labour to import to little HK.

Lots of reasons why FDH's come and work here in the first place is because goverments in their own countries are corrupt, it is not their fault, but until their own countries improve it is not up to a much smaller crowded land mass like HK to take them on, with all the ensuing problems that will happen, it would be a social and economic disaster if there was a small breach in the present rules for the odd few, as the floodgates would really open.

I think any activists who think they have a right to live here should go and challenge governments in their own countries to make conditions better there for the masses of people in a much larger land mass.

lucas.ogara 14 yrs ago

(1.) Donald Tsang not so long ago announced that HK should aim for a population of 10 million people. That's about 3 million more than currently live in HK.

(2.) The overcrowding that we experience is artificially created, intended to enrich the property cartels and the government, which makes money from land lease sales.

(3.) If HKers can cope with domestic helpers living with them in close quarters, day in and day out, acting as surrogate parents in many cases, then why is the idea of the same person living here independently so frightening?

Back to the overcrowding for a moment. Apartment blocks could be fewer, but fatter and taller (with fewer, but larger flats per floor), and more low-rise development in between. We could also be building on the 60% or so of HK that is currently undeveloped. Lots of that land is not flat but there are already some developments perched on stilts on the sides and tops of hills/mountains, so more could be built. Land is being reclaimed for every purpose *but* housing. There are avenues that could be explored to give everyone more breathing room, but that's not being done. Instead, real sizes of apartments are shrinking while property prices based on the fudged square footages are hiked relentlessly higher and higher.

Instead of addressing the real problem (i.e. the collusion between the government and real estate developers that's turning HK into a cramped madhouse), it seems that some people are eager to turn their long-simmering frustration at the crowding against an entire group of people who (A.) are already here, (B.) are unlikely to bring in large numbers of dependants any time soon assuming that HK Immi follows its own guidelines, and (C.) have played no part in the deals and machinations that have caused the overcrowding.

Shoe Girl 14 yrs ago

Wasn't there a similar sentiment expressed a few years ago when the government didn't want to give rights of abode to mainland children born to HK residents and locals were up in arms in fear of what would happen here with the influx of these people and how our infrastructure wouldn't be able to cope with the masses of people coming from over the border?

If you're going to be totally honest, the fact that there's one set of rules for people on one particular visa and another set for a different visa, isn't this discrimination at its core?

Susie1 14 yrs ago

Sorry Lucas, but I have to disagree with you on a couple of points,

2, Hong Kong is very hilly and there are lots of areas where apartment blocks could not be built, most of the building is around the edges of the island. As it is a world business hub a lot of the buildings just have to get taller, to provide more space.

The people who work in these offices have to live somewhere, so any available land is used to house them, and most are HK locals, or expats brought in with specialities.

3, Hong Kongers live with FDHs because that is one person or sometimes two under their roof, and they have to pay wages, medical expenses, food, heat, light etc.

If these same helpers got residency and independence they would want more pay, out of that pay, they would have to provide their own medical care, food, heat light, and pay taxes like everybody else does.

If they brought family members over, say a husband and 2 kids, they would want school places, more jobs for the husband, Oh and maybe fetch the mother over to look after the kids while they work, the population is already exploding.

As well as more housing, Hk would have to provide schools, hospitals,and maternity places, police, even prisons, try to drill mountains for better MTR services to more remote areas. That is providing both the husband and wife immigrants can indeed find work at the higher cost they will have to charge to live here permanently. What is HK going to do when less people want to employ an FDH at a higher charge, are they going to pay them unemployment pay? are they going to provide free school places for their children, are they going to provide more old peoples homes when these people age and can no longer work. I think they would want to bring as many dependents over as possible if they were to be granted residency. Lots of them bring as many family members over to work as they can, as it is, mothers, daughters, cousins aunts, I think they would want the husbands and kids as well from each of the related families, huge families before you know it, with the possibilities of more children because the husband and wife are together.

For many years the Uk has allowed in all kinds of immigrants, and the situation has become so bad, that as a Christian country, it has stopped The Nativity in many schools, so as not to offend the minority, that is just one example. Immigrants have been given council houses, before British born nationals, many are unemployed and receiving benefits, they are breeding and putting a strain on all services, and look at the state the UK and many other European countries are in today, a Mess!! and now they are all thinking of clamping down on immigration, it is too late.

I don't think big brother China will allow HK to go this way.

lucas.ogara 14 yrs ago

Susie1, do you support a throttling of Mainland immigration to HK? The reason that I ask is that every strike against allowing domestic helpers to attain residency here applies just as well to Mainlanders.

Your primary concern seems to be that domestic helpers, once granted residency, would bring over as many dependents as possible. Since HK Immi would not be obliged to allow dependents to settle here unless the resident could show the ability to support them, however, your nightmare scenario should not come to pass -- unless it already is happening w/re to Mainland immigrants, who are streaming in under the current regime.

As things stand now, nearly half of HK's population live in public or subsidized housing and more than half of households subsist on an income of less than $HKD 20k per month [1]. A four-person family w/a stay-at-home parent and two kids earning less than $28k per month doesn't even pay any taxes [2].

References:

[1] http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/factsheets/docs/population.pdf

[2] http://www.ird.gov.hk/eng/pdf/pam61e.pdf

dansande 14 yrs ago

'I don't think big brother China will allow HK to go this way.' Certainly not if old broom head Regina Ip gets her way and the government decides to kick rule of law to the curb once again by seeking an 'interpretation' of the Basic Law.

190k 14 yrs ago

I'm going out on a limb here but look what happened in Europe last week one guy got p1550ffed with to many immirants and shot the town up. Here we have people struggling to make living and are too proud to claim CSSA. FDH's yes they have assisted HK inbecoming what it is but they have been taking our money away and thus not helping the economy in that sense. Besides PR is not permanent. My kids were born here and both left HK for more than 36 months. They now have ROA but not PR and thus are not entitled to the $6000 handout. I have been paying tax here for 30 years average $120K/year that adds up to $3.6m and I was born here but my kids don't get PR??? FDH's signed on the dotted line that they are not entitled when they decided to come here that is it no arguement. What other countries let FDH's get PR or equivelant and be entitled to all the social benefits????????? I believe that tw-way permit holders from China are also barred from claiming PR even though they are married to PR and have kids, they should havepriority over FHD who are here for commercial reasons.

punter 14 yrs ago

Anybody knows where it is said that Domestic Helpers cannot become Permanent Residents?

For those who have become one, you can remember the requirements from the Immigration Department given to you. It was a one page list, I remember.

What stand out in my mind were:

1. Been residing in Hong Kong for 7 years.

2. Except Domestic Helpers.

190k 14 yrs ago

There are thousands of HK men who have mainland wives and children who are not allowed to live here they visit on two-way permits. If their pregnant wife comes here to give birth they again are treated as mainlanders and have to pay the $50+k to give birth in a HK hospital and then go back to China

NuinHK 14 yrs ago

Guys, the writing has been on the wall for a while: HK is integrating with the mainland faster than some would like to see. Too bad. And let's not forget: 1) HK is part of China; so stop kidding yourselves about still living in the old "colonial" HK; 2) half or more of the HKers migrated here from the mainland over the last 50 years; and 3) that move of population is NOT immigration. It has never been.

190k 14 yrs ago

Getting back to the original topic, the immigration policy is not against people from the PI but ALL domestic helpers including Indonesian, Srilankan, Thai etc

To add to that the Govt. does not alow FDH from the Mainland

Josacs 14 yrs ago

@ short time : why all the hate bro? Did any one of these so called " people from ed filthy countries butt- raped you that trigger your racist rant against immigrants? Can you tell me from which "great" country are you from and I am pretty sure that your country is not perfect either. The internet is a wonderful thing. But oftentimes, people hide behind screen names and spout out hateful diatribes and ripped things and people apart with little regard to the consequences of their actions.

spurtio 14 yrs ago

As Beancurd rightly points out, once they have their PR they don't have to work as DHs (so it won't inflate DH costs) but can compete in the open market for jobs. But to my mind that is where the real "racism" will begin as they find that local companies will not employ them in other roles.

Then they don't have income, anywhere to live, and so cannot bring their families over. So they either become a burden on the system or go back to being a live-in DH at the standard rate. And as a live-in DH at a standard rate they won't be allowed to bring in family either.

So what was the point anyway in getting PR in the first place?

dansande 14 yrs ago

Any employers-current or former- of FDHs who are beside themselves with indignation at the remote prospect of helpers gaining recognition as human beings instead of chattel should have a good look in the mirror if they want someone to blame. Remember the reason they were brought here: because some people didn't want to pay the going rate for local help. If you didn't want them here you should have hired local help so stop complaining. You only have yourselves to blame.

190k 14 yrs ago

They will bring their families over and all can claim CSSA and get free housing, schooling, medical etc still much better than what they can get at home. Is that fair to the HK guys whose wife are mainlanders and can't come in with the kids. That ROA case has already been sorted. If they give FDH PR then there will be serious social disorder amongst the locals who can't have thier son stay with them and get a HK education.

ST you are a fool, those who employ FDH are generally middle class who need both parents to work so they can afford to buy a shoebox and get tutorials for their kids. They are not lazy they are very industrious and hard working and that is what makes HK tick. The middle class is HK, but they are slowly being weeded out by poor Govt. policy that supports big business and daily SME's are closing all over the place to be replaced by Starbucks and the like. If it wasn't for the middle class there would be a lot less FDH.

Why can't my son and daughter who were born here get PR, I was born here and lived here all my life. They left through no fault of their own and were away for more than 36 months. Why should a FDH get PR before them when their contract clearly stated that they would not be elegible. FDH are paid very well here. I know a 4 star hotel manager in China who gets less than $5k/month plus food and board, no airfares home, no insurance, no medical etc. The bar manager in the same hotel only gets $2500. Yes there are some bad employers but you get that in any line of work. Most FDH here are very well looked after compared to other places but typically they want more. FDH's come here because failing of their govt, they educate but don't ensure employment. We in HK can take in qualified people to fill vacancies in our employment market but not to the extent that they become competition to local residents. When I was a kid we had a local live in DH but when the govt allowed FDH she got the sack as the FDH were cheaper, loss of a local job.

dansande 14 yrs ago

Firstly, people who gain permanent residence are NOT automatically allowed to bring over family members. You have to be able to show that you are able to support them financially and this generally means being able to demonstrate an income of at least 15 to 20 thousand a month. It's no use 'discussing' this issue if you can't even get a basic fact like this right.

Secondly, bringing up what other governments do, how little some other people earn here or on the Mainland, how badly helpers are treated in some other awful place, or the fact that diplomats don't get PR is like talking about life on Mars; its completely irrelevant.

Thirdly, and for the millionth time, helpers are not responsible for the plight of HK's middle class or working poor. Anyone who tries to insinuate that they are is either a liar or a foolish pawn of politicians like those in the DAB.

housed 14 yrs ago

For those who say DH's might not bring their families to HK if they get PR, that's just naive. Of course they will. Just look at Canada- their live-in care giver program grants PR status to DH after 3 yrs. Everyone I talk to there says they can't keep a PR after 3 years as all are keen to move on, generally to work part-time at higher wages while claiming all the benefits available in Canada. And all bring their families over to moment they qualify.

Not saying this is wrong, as I would do the same if I came from a poor corrupt country. Who wouldn't? But HK is a much smaller and more densely populated place so how can anyone fault the existing citizens for worrying if this comes through? I don't think it's necessarily racism, some opponents to this proposal could simply be motivated by practicality.

Susie1 14 yrs ago

I think The HK law makers who are wasting their time listening to requests for PR from FDH's or anyone else on a low income from outside HK, which is unlikely to be given. Families like 190K should get more consideration as they were born here, and definately have more right of abode providing they work.

It would be better spending useful time starting a proper creche system for children 3 months to school age, with some after school care for older children, that is what HK is lacking. Cost for the use of the facilities could be graded so that even the poorest child with both parents working could afford to send the children there, and the better off ones pay more in proportion to their salary, good integration for the kids, less likely to turn out brats!

They could train locals to become properly qualified nursery nurses, Mums would not have to worry if they had to work, knowing their children would be looked after in a safe environment by people who are monitored by government standards.

Any help in the home, with housework, including washing and ironing could be easily done by the mother themselves, or a part-time person.

The costs of putting up nurseries all over, and training the staff to run them is far less than taking on extra PR's who don't contribute to housing, taxes etc, and may be a drain on the economy when they have out priced themselves in the work market, because they won't get jobs when local HK people can do the job in question.

HK would become more self sufficient and not have to rely on bringing in cheap help from neighbouring countries. Hk is a 1st world country in many ways, but in its reliance on having to have a Maid/helper it is Victorian.

Mums and Dads in many other 1st world, choose to have 1,2,3 or more children and bring them up together, and share the household/gardening tasks as well as work, and if they both have to work then there is always child care facilities from babies -up, and maybe they may have a cleaner in once or twice a week if they are lucky and better off financially. This is the norm, and they wouldn't expect anything else.

The norm here is for more people to have a stranger living in, who is often not even maternally inclined, even if they have had children themselves, because they have somebody else back home bringing their kids up.

nigella 14 yrs ago

First of all, the title of this thread is misleading and unhelpful. From what I gather, this is primarily about the imminent ruling of FDHs seeking PR in HK, nothing to do with the "anti-Filipino sentiment". You know better than that, ED.

Driven mainly by economic reasons (and later demand and supply), certain Asian countries have availed their labour to work as FDHs in Hong Kong (as is Singapore, middle East, etc). In another words, they are here as workers. It just so happens that they are mainly Filipinos, Indonesians, Sri Lankans, etc. This is not racism. Not when the sole purpose of issuing the permit to enter HKSAR is strictly for work.

Where you think there is racism is because having an extra person from a totally different cultural, religious background living with you in your dinky 450 sq ft flat will cause friction whether you like it or not. Since you are not going to vent your frustration on your family, it is seen as something against the FDH. FDHs hang out together on their day off and invariably gossips and complains about their lives. And as time went on this relationship has obviously spiralled out of control (and therefore now it is "HK discriminates").

For those who just like to point their fingers and say precisely that, the demographic and therefore subsequent economic ramifications of this ruling can have far reaching consequences (even for expats). And it is precisely because the government knew they made a mistake the with previous case ie mainlanders born in HK ruling (back then it was less than 800 people in this category at the time of ruling, now we have 40,000 mainlanders seeking to give birth in HK for PR status) that they must be extra careful to ensure this doesn't happen again.

Hong Kong is not a racist city. It simply bows to whoever brings $$$$. The fact is some of the mainlanders who come here have money to spend. It's as simple as that. Don't confuse that with racism against FDHs.

But this unfortunately will backfire on the FDHs. Whether the ruling goes through or not, the government will now change the immigration laws to ensure that it is ironclad against such future problems and it will make the FDHs lives difficult. They should have thought about that before trying get something they were frankly not entitled to in the first place.

Beijing's right to interpret the Basic law was designed to override any protential problems that Beijing doesn't want to see happen in Hong Kong.

spurtio 14 yrs ago

Unfortunately I think that Nigella is correct. In pushing this case, which is being driven I suspect by the lawyers rather than the five FDHs, it will end up making the whole FDH visa process more difficult in the future.

In order to qualify for PR you need seven unbroken years, legal living in HK. So IMD will simply ensure that between each contract (at the end of a visa) an FDH will have to leave the country and will have to reapply from overseas. This way their legal living in HK will be broken each contract. In the cases of contract renewal, I would suspect that they will limit that to, let's say three contracts (that allows long service pay) and then no more renewals without leaving the country and reapplying.

Imagine if every two years your helper HAS to go to their home country for four weeks while the visa is renewed. I suspect this whole issue will just make it more painful in the future.

dansande 14 yrs ago

One poster said it was 'naive' to think that DHs wouldn't petition to bring over their familiies if granted PR and then tried to support this claim by talking about the law in Canada. Obviously, this is HK and not Canada so please stick to the point and stop bringing irrelevant nonsense into this discussion. FDHs may petition all they like but the fact remains that such petitions will NOT be successful if they are not able to support their family member without recourse to the public treasure. This is a very simple fact which anyone who has applied for a dependant visa here would know. If you deny this you are only making a very proud and public display of your own ignorance and utter inability to comment sensibly on this issue.

cowleyp 14 yrs ago

Beancurd, what you are mentioning is common to all races, visit China town anywhere in the world (or Mong Kok) for example, or Bradford in England, or the Italian quarter in Sydney, the British quarter in Cairo..... It's human nature to bring your loved ones with you and to try to improve your own and your families lifestyle. Or why are you in HK? And why not who wouldn't do the same given half a chance? The point is there should be alevel playing field not a discriminatory one.

hottrade74 14 yrs ago

OK here 's a question: Why is it that chinese citizens who live in the UK, US or Oz for a certain amount of time can get passports, however, a non chinese can be born and live in HK/china all their life and never get a chinese passport?

China does not play bythe rules....and the west accepts it....end of story..sadly

Susie1 14 yrs ago

I think you'll find that it is the HK Chinese who had the right of abode in UK from the time Hk was under British rule who may get the passports.The Chinese who are in the UK most of them probably from HK's link with UK before the takeover, or born in HK during British rule. They are the least troublesome group of immigrants there, they don't tend to live in Ghetto's, they don't impose their religious beliefs on the rest of the population. They integrate well because they are clean living, have a yearning to learn at school, run their Chip shops or restaurants, some are top class Doctors and Surgeons. They may have brought their immediate family over originally most of them qualifying in their own right, but not the extended family, the unemployment rate amongst their ethnic minority only is very low, as they are hard working, and don't drain public funds, like other ethnic minorities do.

I don't know if any of you heard of Mohamed Al Fayed the former owner of Harrods? had a son Dodi who died in the same car crash Princess Diana died in. Despite living in the UK for years, paying very high taxes and providing employment for many Brits, he was never allowed to have British Citizenship or a passport.

When he took over Harrods, any job applicants had to send a photo, that way he reduced the number of black applicants for the top jobs, and if he did employ them they got the more menial jobs, this is true-- and coming from a man who was born Egyptian with a darker skin!

dansande 14 yrs ago

Susie, if you tried really hard do you think you could possibly cram any more simplistic, unsubstantiated, rascist generalizations into one post?

Susie1 14 yrs ago

Dansande this is a fact to answer hottrade74's comment about Chinese citizens living in the UK,and their rights being able to get passports.

Comment re Mohamed Al Fayed, just google his wiki, he was a non Uk citizen who made a lot of money and still does out of the Uk, granted he pays his taxes, but all his money could not buy citizenship, plus he was very racist against others for not being the right colour to adorn his shop, Fact!! not me being racist mentioning that he was.

dansande 14 yrs ago

Come on, now. You know there was a lot more in your post than some utterly bizzare comments about Al Fayed. Care to provide any links with evidence supporting the following claims?

1. Ethnic Chinese are the 'least troublesome' immigrants to Britain.

2. They tend not live in ghettoes.

3. They integrate well because they are 'clean living'.

4. They are hard-working.

5. They are the only ethnic minority with a low unemployment rate in Britain.

6. They don't drain public funds like other ethnic minorities do.

7. They don't bring their extended families to live in Britain.

Susie1 14 yrs ago

No I am not flippino carlos93, I'm flippin European, one half British one half European parentage.

Dansande the above comments are from my experience of living in the Uk for nearly 55 years(years before in Europe) and having some contact with different ethnic minorities on the outskirts of every major city , due to working a lot of my working life in the public sectors. I promise you that if I took you to one of these ghettos you would not feel safe being left there, if you parked your car there you would be lucky to find it in on piece when you came to collect it, or you may be stabbed or shot for saying the wrong thing to the wrong gang, try Southwold in north London, Birmingham, Bradford, Moss side Manchester. The ghettos are where certain other nationalities live, mainly in public housing because the UK once allowed them and their extended families to stay, there is a high level of unemployment, drugs, crime, prostitution in those areas, services paid for by working tax payers are stretched to the limits, so are the prisons.There are ethnic gangs, one group hating the other just for the fact they come from different countries, cultures, religions etc.

UK and other European countries are now realising that they have been too soft to allow just anybody to stay, and tightened the rules, the Sanget immigrants camp in France has been closed by the French, with agreement from Uk because there was so many illegal immigrants trying to escape to Uk via the undersea channel tunnel.

Nationals of 'once Uk' Colonial places will always get some preference to claim a right to stay, as long as they work, there is a short supply of public housing even for UK born and bred citizens because other ethnic minorities have it.

So in comparison to the Chinese who have the right to be in Uk, if they were HK born before independence, you can see the difference, they unlike a lot of the other ethnic minorities have not expected UK to give them everything on a plate, like housing, unemployment or supplimentary wage benefits for low earners and free medicines, they have been an asset and not a drain on the economy.

There are many smaller european groups who came to UK just before or after WW2 who have completely integrated,live peacefully and get on with their work, even though their religions are different, because the culture and upbringing is very similar.

Ok,Dansande, so take a trip there to the areas I have mentioned, long enough to experience the differences you will see and tell me then what you think.

Hk is a relatively much safer place to be, but might not stay that way if the law makers ever got as soft as the Uk governments have been in the past, I don't think they will, and I love HK and its people for what it is, not what it could become with too much permanent integration, and I would not want to be a PR either.

dansande 14 yrs ago

So your short answer is: 'No, I can't provide any links with evidence to support my claims but I'm going to go on making them anyway.' You repeat all the predictable racist complaints about immigrants everywhere: crime, prostitution, drugs, gangs, etcetera. So there are no Chinese immigrants involved in these activities? Give me a break!

dansande 14 yrs ago

Wow, Bitchybell. You're really afraid that 'they' are going to 'take over'? Are you aware that HK is more than 90 percent ethnic Chinese? That means that for HK to lose its Chinese majority literally millions of people from other ethnicities would have to move here permanently. This exceeds even the most outlandish nightmare scenario concocted by the DAB.

Josacs 14 yrs ago

BitchyBell, your english is fine.

It's your PARANOIA that you should be worried about.

sagada 14 yrs ago

i am a filipino, but a HK resident. i do not think there is a degree of racism from the HK immigartion standpoint.

I TOTALLY agree with housed comment psoted 2 days ago, as, :Posted by housed (2 days ago)

For those who say DH's might not bring their families to HK if they get PR, that's just naive. Of course they will. Just look at Canada- their live-in care giver program grants PR status to DH after 3 yrs. Everyone I talk to there says they can't keep a PR after 3 years as all are keen to move on, generally to work part-time at higher wages while claiming all the benefits available in Canada. And all bring their families over to moment they qualify."

NO ONE IS INDESPENSABLE EXCEPT THE CHIEF OF HK, whether grant or deny the right of abode in favor of Domestic helpers who been working for more than 7 years. But for Filipinos caliming for RIGHTS of abode, there is always a domino effect. Granting them, must grant all foreigners with same status both expats and other "foreign" domestic helpers.

Normally domestic helpers who stay for more tahn seven years in Hong Kong, are the onesn who stay with their employers or same employers because of good treatment and some consider them as part of their family as they both (helper and employers) treasured the hardwork, honesty, respect and nurtured unconditional love.

Since, i do not think there are thousands or hundreds of hellpers who been here for more than years, aside from their long service from their employment, perhaps the goventment can give a better or higher wages for them not as the usual HKD3740/mo. Moreover, to compensate the highest standard of domestic performance. Make a SCHEME. Give them more privileges and benefits than the new ones. After all, no one will stay longer in one place if they do not treat VERY well by their employers or by the country they worked in. as we may filipino call it, giove some "pa-consuelo"

"the saying this is wrong, as I would do the same if I came from a poor corrupt country. Who wouldn't? But HK is a much smaller and more densely populated place so how can anyone fault the existing citizens for worrying if this comes through? I don't think it's necessarily racism, some opponents to this proposal could simply be motivated by practicality.

hebe01 14 yrs ago

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nigella 14 yrs ago

madtown,

am merely pointing out the obvious: they don't put money into the "pot", Beijing will not let them take money out of the "pot". this "pot" now belongs to Beiing.

as for why mainlanders can stay? obvious! as an aggregate entity they bring money into hong kong. the sad reality is that nobody cares about the poor ones as cheap labour works well here and the wealthy ones just keep spending. it's about $$$ and it's about the fact that 1.3 million tax payers have no interest in shelling out more benefits and not many can afford to pay $28/hour for 24 hours a day, whether you are local or expat.

Beancurd - the thais for one are not interested in PR. they consider hk inferior to Thailand. I must admit, I agree (nice beaches, great food, smiles everwhere). they just want to make enough money and get the hell out. hence the constant demand outstrip supply for thai domestic helpers in HK (not many willing to leave Thailand for work .

Ed 14 yrs ago

Domestic helpers hit `scare tactics'

In a sign of things to come, a coalition of foreign domestic helpers and a pro-Beijing political party voiced opposing views on the right of abode for maids just a few streets from each other.

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=11&art_id=113898&sid=33312976&con_type=1&d_str=20110808&fc=10

Susie1 14 yrs ago

For those of you who wondered what a country HK in this instance, could become like if they allowed indescriminate immigration, like stupid UK, having allowed this in the past, and let their extended families come, and drain UKs resources to live in Ghettos, here it is below Watch the faces(ethinic) of the people who live on benefits, who have caused mass destruction, riots, looted the shops they have burned down.

In the past 2 days only, 3 ghetto areas of London alone, have kicked off with violence, and these areas are on the outskirt of any major UK city, a mass problem and drain on the economy, and they- the immigrants only came in small numbers to start with !!

LINK http://news.sky.com/home/

andyny 14 yrs ago

There's no way they should be allowed..bottom line. HK can't afford it as a society and the DH's knew the rules before coming. No one forced them to come (hopefully) so deal with it or go back.

sampaguita 14 yrs ago

I was talking to my maid of 18 years..she told me HK Govt is already lenient. In Taiwan, you are only allowed 3 years and then go home, you are not allowed to gt another employer.. But what they do is, they go and change their passport and name.. In Japan, you work 6 months and then go home..Now, my helper is blaming the other helpers who is fighting for the PR because in the long run, the Govt would strictly protect its PR policy and would restrict DH to work for only 4 years and then go home, more or less like Taiwan....Her friend even said if they have no money, they can get housing and also CSSA, the more children you have the more money you can get from CSSA.. they know what they can get. What they deserve is a Long Service Pay, a ideal Retirement Fund, a good employer.... O

hottrade74 14 yrs ago

susie1,

u missed the point....completely...

dansande 14 yrs ago

Amazing. The ignorant rubbish being regurgitated on this thread just never ends. Firstly, the rioters in England are not mostly immigrants or the even the children of immigrants. Just watch the news and you will see plenty of white faces and hear native English accents.

Secondly, does the poster behind this howler care to offer a source: 'as an aggregate entity they (Mainlanders) bring money into Hong Kong'?

Thirdly, please look up the relevant immigration regulations for bringing in family members as dependants. Anyone who does so will realize the sheer absurdity in claiming that helpers will bring their families over to live on welfare.

Fourthly, if you cannot afford to pay helpers the minimum wage of $28 an hour or, more appropriately, the going rate for local help which is a good deal higher, then don't hire any. It is absurd to argue that you are entitled to something you clearly cannot afford in the free market while griping about FDHs living off 'HK taxpayers' out the other side of your mouth.

Lastly, take a good honest look at who actually pays the taxes in HK and where the governments revenue actually comes from. It is sheer nonsense to claim that HK people are burdened by personal income taxes. Most of the governments revenue comes from land sales.

dansande 14 yrs ago

A sponsor must be able to support a dependant 'above the subsistence level and provide him/her with suitable accomodation'. Q.E.D. , helpers CANNOT bring their families over to live on public assistance. Source: www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/id998.htm#II . In the tax year 2009-2010 revenue collected by the IRD accounted for a little more than sixty percent of the government's revenue; the majority of this was stamp duty and profits tax. Thus, the '1.3 million taxpayers' in HK are not the ones footing the bill for public housing and CSSA in any event. More detailed statistics are availabe in the IRD's annual report at www.ird.gov.hk .

punter 14 yrs ago

One of the things HK is so different from the Mailand (and being so proudly told by many locals) is that HK has the rule of law.

This is issue falls into this "rule of law" argument. What does HK law say about the matter? It is therefore in the right forum right now (in the courts).

Whatever feelings you have regarding it may be irrelevant to the outcome. After all, nobody can't vote out of office the decision makers for example.

My personal feeling is that the helpers are being discriminated upon as it is their being domestic helpers is the reason for not being granted PR. After having said that, applicants for PR I believe are also asked to prove capability to support themselves financially (bank statements, tax returns, proof of residence, etc.).

Now if the government decides to let DHs apply for permanent residency, how many can actually afford to show financial capability? The answer doesn't matter, it's Hong Kong's application of the law failry does. At least to me.

lucas.ogara 14 yrs ago

Punter, I agree with everything you've written but the problem is that the rule of law seems to be gradually but continually being undermined in favor of expediency and a sort of brainless, head-banging-on-wall refrain of "HK is part of China now!". HK is becoming more like the Mainland with every passing day.

lucas.ogara 14 yrs ago

Also, kudos to dansande for not allowing xenophobic comments to go unchallenged.

dansande 14 yrs ago

Regarding the claim that immigration wrecks any society which allows it, the empirical evidence for this is less than conclusive to put it mildly. The wikipedia article, 'Crime and Immigration' provides a helpful, if inadequate, overview of the relevant statistics. In some European countries immigrants do commit a disproportionate percentage of crime. However, in England and the United States this is not the case at all. In fact, as revealed in a recent Economist article, 'Crime and Immigration, Not Guilty', data compiled by the UK police show that immigrants are no more likely to commit crimes than native Britons. (source: www.economist.com/node/11058645?story-id=11058645) The same article cites statistics showing that immigration has not damaged England's economy either.

Returning to the topic at hand-Hong Kong-it is ludicrous to suggest that allowing permanent residence to a mostly female population will result in a crime wave since women are far less prone to criminality than men. Suggesting that it will lead to rioting and violent crime is actually dangerous; if you say this to a sane person you may actually cause that individual to die laughing.

mruser80 14 yrs ago

Lol... new Helpers r panicking about the HK Gov changing the law.

andyny 14 yrs ago

A small reply to the earlier post about helpers bringing their families over to suck off the system. I can't speak for everyone but I for one have not worried about that happening. The worry is that they get their PR, leave their jobs as helpers and take another job in society that a local could well be doing....say Ting Ting or Coco working as a guard then loses her job to a younger and eager Filipina/o. Sure, it's 12 hours a day and 6 days a week but it pays around 10k per month! After some time, Maria, the former helper can supply that she has the financial means to bring over her......whoever. Should the law go forward, God forbid, this would be a slow but sure process. It would take time to see effects but nevertheless they wouldn't be good.

On a side point I just love how these topics always bring out the 'Better than Thou's out there who are too busy protecting without seeing the bigger, more realistic picture.

You're welcome to take my name to the Causeway Bay shoe lady and have her beat my soul to the lowest level of hell if u like (which u probably have no idea what that means) if that makes you feel higher and mightier. I said it before and I'll say it again: they knew the game rules before coming and stay still chose to come....like I am told as an American 'Gweilo' often....deal with the situation or pack your bags!

andyny 14 yrs ago

Ah: realizing that a place like Sadi Arabia doesn't allow any outsiders to become citizens (perhaps because citizens get paid a hefty 'allowance' each year!!!!!) it would be a cool YouTube video to see how the helpers' 'scare tactics' and protests play out over in there neck of the woods....

FKKC 14 yrs ago

Why? HK SAR is part of China so why not?

dansande 14 yrs ago

The argument that helpers 'agree' that they can never become permanent residents, even if they spend most of their adult lives here, is fatuous. No such undertaking exists in a standard contract of employment either explicitly or implicitly. Such claims are also suspect on moral grounds. The unstated premise behind this argument is that helpers must accept all of the laws in HK as they are for all eternity and never attempt to change them because this is what they impliedly 'agree to' by moving here. If this is the case I hope that anyone who wasn't born in HK will refrain from complaining about anything the HK government does from now on. Remember, if you don't like it hard cheese on you. You 'agreed to it' when you moved here.

If helpers gain PR they may compete with locals in the local employment market. So what? They earn this right by working here for seven years. And its no use saying they don't deserve PR because they don't have to meet the same job requirements as professionals. Professionals already enjoy higher salaries, better working conditions, better career prospects, and higher social status. Now some posters are saying in essence that this is not enough to keep helpers in their place. The government must explicitly discriminate to ensure that helpers are regarded with a suitable degree of contempt.

One poster mentioned Saudia Arabia. For the life of me I can't imagine what bearing this has on the issue at hand but it says a lot about a person if he or she thinks there is anything to admire in the policies or a venal, brutal, repressive, misogynistic, theocracy

punter 14 yrs ago

You're missing the point WKT, you have to go back to what the law says not what you're afraid of if ever DHs get PR.

Do you know what the Basic Law says about this issue? Do you know what the immigration guideline says about the issue? If you know both, the next question is, is the immigration guideline unconstitutional?

That is the issue here. Not what you and many others are afraid of (i conclude that you're afraid DHs get PR because you said "God help us all" when it happens).

dansande 14 yrs ago

If the length of a standard contract were meant to be interpreted to mean that helpers aren't 'here for the long term' then why does the government allow helpers to renew said contracts?

So you think people from some of the poorer areas of Pakistan, India, and Indonesia are undesirables for some reason. You are entitled to your opinion.

andyny 14 yrs ago

Superb intel on the above comment! 'Jobs are taken from locals...so what?' Awesome!

I also enjoyed the bit about them not being aware that their status would not go to permanent one day....as if it were a sudden surprise they had no clue about!

Anywho, instead of getting into some pissing match here, I would like to throw out a few experiences I come (or have come) across while living here.

#1- I'm a permanent resident and I have put in my time...why the hell do I still need to apply for a visa to China and not get one of those nifty little cards the locals get? Why is it impossible for me to do that no matter how long I am here? Maybe if I give some 'scare tactics' to Mr Hu Jintao he will listen up! (it's unfair and discriminatory!)

#2- I had an Aussie friend here who was teaching for some time and decided to start his own business in his preferred field as a handy man. He had jobs and his business was making but immigration declined his application (btw they won't tell u why apparently) he had to go back to Oz and is now doing his business there.

#3- my partner; a local girl and I are expecting a baby boy in October. As a result of this, we have been made aware of an already problematic issue of too many people competing for the same thing(hospital space). As the news may have been reporting, the HK govt decided to limit spaces in public hospitals for mainland mothers because well....there just ain't enuf damn space!!!! So our lovely mothers from above said ok, u do that and we'll simply show up at your emergency rooms with our babies hanging half way out between our legs! So the HK govt.'s reply was....no no don't do that. Instead, we will subsidize you to go to our private hospitals to have your babies. Isn't that just the most sensible thing you have ever heard!! Mainland mummies get to go private now while locals sweat it out at the publics!!

Alright now u may be wondering what this all has to do with the subject at hand:

Points 1&2 - life's unfair and a bitch for all...not just DH's...and there's starving children in Africa too don't forget.

Point 3- HK govt (probably all depts)is absolutely not equipped to deal with an influx of people and it doesn't matter where they are from. xxx

dansande 14 yrs ago

andyny, you can respond to what I actually wrote or put words in my mouth-your choice. I did not say helpers don't know what the current law is on PR when they come here; I said they did not impliedly 'agree' to be bound by it. Also, if you disagree with my 'so what?' you could explain why you disagree with facts and reasons (or maybe you couldn't which is why you just make a sarcastic quip then back away from a debate.) I don't take it as axiomatic that the HK government should 'protect' locals from competition in the labor market. HK prides itself on being one of the world's 'freest economies', not a nativist and protectionist enclave. The rest of the points in your post are completely irrelevant (and anecdotal) as even you admit so there is no need to respond to them.

dansande 14 yrs ago

They only enjoy 'de facto PR status' if conditions of stay are removed.

andyny 14 yrs ago

Good point wkt about the racism card...agreed. Dadande I believe if you look above, quite a few valid points (by a few posters) have already been listed out as to why this shouldn't go forward but it seems you either ignore or avoid them or come up with a lame answer like 'so what' to an issue like a LOT of local jobs potentially being taken up by Filipinos in the future (construction workers, waiters, drivers, cooks, etc etc etc). And regarding the current situation about the mainland mothers, do you always write that off as 'irrelevant'? The fact that HK is having a big problem right now with this very issue is not only extremely relevant but should be taken as a great example of how similar things could have a very negative impact in the future. But it's completely cool if you want to dismiss me as way off topic and avoid the issue again.

dansande 14 yrs ago

The case of mainland mothers coming here to give birth is not 'similar' because they have not been living here for seven years like FDHs have. I feel that anyone who works here for that long ought to be entitled to permanent residence and all the rights that come with it including the right to compete in the employment market and the right to use public hospitals. Evidently you and many others disagree. Why? Do you think no foreign workers should be allowed PR or just helpers? What is the difference between helpers and other foreign workers? This is the form of discrimination that I have a problem with. If you want to say, as a blanket rule, that no outsiders should ever be allowed PR that's perfectly consistent.

dansande 14 yrs ago

Also, I apologize for coming across as confrontational and dismissive of the concerns of local workers and beneficiaries of public assistance. I understand why people are worried about the public hospital system being overburdened. I also sympathize with locals who earn a low wage. I just don't think these problems are a valid excuse for treating FDHs differently from other foreign workers. Naturally, anyone who gains PR here will place some kind of burden on the local employment markets and public hospital system; it is a question of how extensive this burden will be and how justly it will be distributed. Bear in mind, however, that FDHs are already here and already qualify for treatment in public hospitals.

Susie1 14 yrs ago

dansande, it is not just the public hospital issue, a big "IF" here, they would want

1, Better paid jobs, taking jobs away from locals, or so they think!-- to pay for:

2, Housing, that is a big issue, at the moment they live in, get everything under that roof free, they would take low cost housing away from poorer locals, they can't all of a sudden live in tin shacks.

3. They would all of a sudden have to pay for electricity and gas, and pay taxes.

4. There would probably be overcrowding in the little places they would have, with other FDH's who got PR sharing. causing tensions amongst themselves. Many FDH's who do illegally live out now, complain their room mates steal from each other, and argue and fight amongst themselves.

5. Locals who live near them would resent the fact they would take jobs, houses, racial intollerance would develop;

6. HK born, and Chinese from over the border, who are very similar in looks, religion, family traditions, who are not allowed to work here as FDH"s or bring their HK born children in as PR would get very upset and p'd off, so would I in the same situation! result more racial tension.

7. Any racial tension = more policing of certain areas, more cost to the public .

That is taking into account "IF" PR was only given to the FDH, remember there are thousands of them blocking the streets of HK, every Sunday and sometimes Saturday as well, on their days off, They are mainly peaceful at the moment enjoying themselves, the worst they will do is slag off their employers to each other. If the odd few got PR, news would travel quickly"through the jungle drum" type chatter, more would want it, hence the beginnings of more unrest.

Not many people would want to, or could afford to employ a helper who charged more to cover her 'new' cost of living expenses, and if the helper had higher mainitance cost here, they still could not send much more back to their home countries, after they have paid their own bills. It is a no win situation.

andyny 14 yrs ago

I think both sides have been laid out here fairly extensively. So far, all I see on the 'for' side is the fairness issue while the 'against' side has many reasons behind (granted....not all necessarily valid but I think when both sides are added up the against side has more valid points) its reasoning and rationale. Is it fair to the helpers? No. But as I said before things are not fair to all of us throughout our lives. What HK should do is make crystal clear to potential helpers that this is the way it is. That way, fair or not, the helpers can make their decisions knowing this. I do think HK has already done this but I could be wrong and/or maybe they could improve their communication in this area to avoid any possible misunderstandings.

Ed 14 yrs ago

Maids in Hong Kong sue for residency rights

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/8975/maids-in-hong-kong-sue-for-residency-rights

aliendavid 14 yrs ago

"I am amazed that in this whole discussion nobody has mentioned the real issue underlying the PR-for-DH-matter: let's call a spade a spade, shall we: it's all about economic migration. People from a poor, rather hopeless country hoping to get a permanent, fast-track way into a rich country and a better life."

Hmmmm it's easier to call people racist then to actually have an argument

bing2 14 yrs ago

madtown: HK and Chinese gov will NEVER allow FDH to get permanent residency in HK because there are not enough men in Hong Kong to satisfy them all!

Joke aside, I would like to put a bet for $10,000 (which will be donated to CCF) those FDH will not win and make things more complicated for future FDH to work in HK.

Any takers?

Mog77 14 yrs ago

If I was a FDH I would be fighting for the cause for Perm Residency as well. Especially when conditions in their own country are less than the place they work. Hong Kong is a great opportunity for them and their extended families.

Is this however a positive move for HK? If you look at other country immigration policies now residency is achieved overtime BUT more importantly to even set foot in the country to work you need to prove that you are an asset to the economic growth of the country, this is generally assessed by education level, qualifications, experience, profession, criminal records & health. The other important factor or question for a work visa is "Can the current workforce carry out this kind of work"? Unfortunately for FDH their work can easily be carried out by the locals of Hong Kong (However I am not saying they would be willing and it would require them to be paid min. wage). A DH job is not looked upon as a highly skilled job.

So on that assessment no I don't think FDH should be allowed to become perm residents.

However, if they (or people of the same ethnicity) secure a job that is not "low skilled" and they offer something that the local population can not provide, then yes by all means allow them to work and reside in HK and achieve PR.

It should not be about race, rather what can they contribute to the economy of HK.

Maybe this issue highlights HK's strange dependance on FDH? Maybe HK society isn't wired right, or the people of HK are not supported enough by HK govt to deal with childcare?

Just my thoughts.

bing2 14 yrs ago

madtown, i almost laugh my butt off when you say exploitation of DH! hk has been helping generate billion of dollars each year to DH and their extended family.

all those money they sent back home have helped their extended family live day to day. do you know that the money sent home from DH is almost 14% of Philippines' GDP?

exploitation?

before they came to work in hong kong they have been told that they cannot get permanent residency even after 7 years, so why fight it now? this condition has been written and told to all DH before they even come to hong kong so in what ground they deserve a permanent spot in hong kong?

they dont deserve to stay in hong kong permanently just because someone like you think they work so hard taking care of hk people, etc, etc. well, they got paid for doing what they are doing! so just shut up and keep working and no one will have a problem.

mike204 14 yrs ago

racism and the superiority complex displayed by some is just appalling.

bing2 14 yrs ago

mike204: no racism and superiority complex here. everyone is a racist on their own way, including yourself, but what i dont like is those DH wanting more than they agreed to.

Josacs 14 yrs ago

Bing, you said "no racism" yet you contradict yourself that everybody is a racist in his/her own way. Where can you find in the Employment Contract document that says they agreed not to apply pursue PR? All they agreed to were purely work related. If the Basic Law's ruling on the granting of PR to people who has resided in HK for at least seven years seem discrimanatory, then they have all the right in the world to at least challenge it, thats why there is such a thing as a Court of Law. If the world is govern by people like you who just says "you people just shut up and we will have no problem" then I think our world will now be colored RED.

Josacs 14 yrs ago

Wkt, it is not racism. In fact, we filipinos love foreigners so much that our girls marry them no matter how old, ugly and sobs they are :). Kidding aside, in regards to your gripe about foreigners not allowed to own land in the philippines, its because Developing countries often restrict foreign ownership of their assets. This is not limited to land, but also includes ownership of stocks and other assets. Developing countries do no want to be looted or manipulated by foreigners. Developing countries are very vulnerable to financial exploitation, unlike a developed country such as the United States or NZ.

bing2 14 yrs ago

madtown: that's irrelevant when you said DH are being exploited in hong kong? do you know how many filipinos are right now exploiting hong kong?

your logic that DH should be given and treated the same when it comes to permanent residency is an absolute joke. you have no case at all. just because they are here to help hk people does not give them the right to become a permanent resident.

josacs, so you guys can restrict foreigners from owning a land and hk cannot restrict DH from getting a PR? what a hypocrite! in the contract there is no such a claus about PR but anyone who comes to hong kong should abide, follow and RESPECT hong kong immigration law and the law says NO PR to DH! so please respect that law just like we will respect philippines' law.

Josacs 14 yrs ago

Bing, you are really very good at name calling...anyways, there is a very BIG difference between HK not allowing DH to get PR and the Philippine Gov't not allowing foreigners to own lands and do you know what it is? The difference is that we did not single out any specific race. it is very clear that it is for ALL Foreigners. If HK wants to safeguard its own interests against immigrants taking away jobs and services from local HK people, then it should have been better if your government has a policy barring ALL foreigners not to become PR, not just target DHs . May I ask you why you are so against DHs getting PR, is it because you are in the cleaning industry and you fear that they will get your job away from you? Don't worry, just do your job well and i am sure your career is secure.

bing2 14 yrs ago

josacs, you are so naive or should i call you ignorant?

the big difference you mentioned is laughable because there is no difference. bottom line is your country wants to protect its own interest, right?

what is wrong with you? you guys dont single out a single race?? but all foreigners can't buy land in your country. so that's your argument?? LOL..... did we single out DH from the Philippines?? it's for all DH from any country be it your country, indonesia or any other country. OMG...

let me explain this clearly to you: i am not against filipinos or DH, i just think DH do not deserve a permanent residency here in hong kong because they CANNOT survive their first 7 years in hong kong independently, OK? all of them are heavily depended to their employers to survive in hong kong, OK? does this make sense to you?

dont worry, just do your job well here in hong kong and we will not send you back.

peace!

andyny 14 yrs ago

I think WKT above just gave a 'knockout' to this fight people!! And it didn't even occur to me before! Josacs, all due respect, please don't offer this 'some countries' do this crap ! That's exactly what we're talking about here!!! I remember years back going to Boracay to take in some diving and taking in the beauty. The dive place I was with (really good) were some Americans but through drink/solve the world discussions, when we hit on this topic, they said the only way into the Philippines is to marry a Ph girl.

So, HK letting mainlanders in...I don't agree cause they've already screwed things up seriously!!

Why do other foreigners get PR but helpers dont?

Well let's take mr Cathay pilot or I-banker here who makes at least 100k per month doing a job that not everyone can do (I know this is limited but most jobs that foreigners come here specifically for are specialty and quite high paying). After 7 years, what are the chances that she/he will leave that job and become a burden on society? Take a job that a local can do...i.e waiter? Or try to get his/her family here once they've met the qualifications of the IMD?

Is it rasist or discriminatory to say that they wouldn't do this or that a maid would...hell yes! But the immigration dept MUST view things this way when doing their jobs!

BTW- I'm an American who is here only because I married a local girl. From the begining, immigration told me I was not guaranteed a place and they would keep tabs on me. I put in my 7 years and I have always worked in a field that was specialized and my family wouldn't move here from their nice little cocoon in the southeast US if they were dragged by wild horses.

So is immigration on the right track in how they are doing things? Damn right (except with their mistaken regarding the mainlanders)!

Josacs 14 yrs ago

@ Bing, you can not send me back coz i am a permanent resident. You can send Donald Tsang or Jackie Chan to me and they can't do anything about it. So you and your minions can just live with it. As my teacher friend back in the Philippines once said, trying to convince people to be more open minded is one of the most difficult job a man has to do ( he was referring to normal people). It is doubly difficult if you are talking to a person with half a brain ( yes Bing, thats you).

You single out Dhs in particular. Why not not make ALL foreigners not eligible? Why single out a certain group? What part of this argument you don't or wont understand?

"They ( DH) can't survive their first 7 years independently" of course! How can they be independent when in fact they were under an employment contract? Do you think the Immigration Dept will allow them to do it ? wow, what logic you have and you even call me ignorant.

Josacs 14 yrs ago

@ andyny: so basically what you are saying is that DHs don't deserve to become PR because (1) their jobs are not specialized enough, therefore, (2) their earnings are not big enough and surely,(3) they and their dependants will just become a burden for the HK government once they become permanent residents. So using your logic, only pilots and people who are earning 100k plus a month deserved to be given these kind of privileges? Wow. what an elitist piece of crap.

Josacs 14 yrs ago

Bing, I dont gamble, especially if I play with other's people's future or lack thereof. If you like to donate something to CCF, then do so.

bing2 14 yrs ago

josacs, you dont gamble ohhh that's too bad. it's not gambling if you give money for a good cost. why dont you just reveal yourself, chicken?

you dont want to argue anymore?? oh i am so sad!! hahaha, your argument has no ground. just because someone stayed in hk for more than 7 years does not mean they can get a permanent spot, ok? what's your base? nothing....

my brain cells are dead i think maybe a million of them each time after i finished reading your replies.

have a nice wonderful second class citizen life in hong kong for the rest of your life - just the way it is in hong kong.

peace out.

sampaguita 14 yrs ago

Haii.. I blame our Philippine Government... Right in their own country, they have to pay 85K peso to come here to work as DH and that is around HK$16,000...Why cant Philippine Govt stop this outrageous fees.. We have so many beautiful resources in the Philippines, lands, natural resources. We dont really have to work abroad and risk our family to be broken. They need to be educated, they need to do strict birth control, avoid adultery which is a common thing in the Philippines which leads to extended family, plan better medical project.. I also need to remit money to relatives who cannot afford emergency medical fees and I can understand that.. my son broke his arm and I spend 10,000 peso, to me the fees is ok but how about those earning 5000 peso a month only like my poor relatives. WE cannot blame HK for not issueing PR to them, lets look at other country's Immigration Policy....HK is not really that strict or bias at all...

Mog77 14 yrs ago

What Sampaguita states is a sad truth for the Philippines and its people. Josacs comments are very emotive and heart felt, but sadly the reality stands that DH are workers that do not offer that special something that makes HK immigration go yes you are an asset to the growth of our economy. I respect that they work hard and make life for the middle to upper HK residence very comfortable. But the reality is everyone who has immigrated or had family immigrate anywhere in the world knows you have to have something that makes that country interested to give you residency not just I have worked her for x number of years. DH must remember that a country will always do whats best for its citizens and protect them over new immigrants.

mike204 14 yrs ago

"no racism and superiority complex here. everyone is a racist on their own way, including yourself, but what i dont like is those DH wanting more than they agreed to."

Speak for yourself.

gaz_hayes 14 yrs ago

@NuinHK

The reason so many mainland Chinese came to HK over the past 50 years was because they did not want to be killed my Mao. Plain and simple. They were getting AWAY from the chaos in China and coming to HK administered by the oh so evil British who treated them better than their own people did.

The ONLY reason so many mainlanders are coming to HK now is because HK is NOT China and quite a lot of the British system remains intact, they are getting tired of being trodden on by corrupt officials and treated like crap in their own 'country' (not to mention having their kids die of any number of tainted products) so they come here where they can enjoy rule of law and an accountable government. The proof is in the pudding, mainlanders come to HK because HK is better than China, otherwise why would they come? Why would young mainland girls spend their family's life savings on a fake marriage to a HK truck driver just for the right to live in HK if HK was just the same as China?

You will know when HK has really integrated into China because the influx of mainlanders will stop, there's no reason to move from one corrupt cesspool to another.

notaeuropean 14 yrs ago

Right, @madtown, but now the USA hates immigrants and is arguably more racist now than 40 years ago.

I think sampaguita has it right, and she should know.

HK definitley has racism but the opposition to this is more than that. It's too comitted to avoiding taxes and social welfare. the free market ideology is bone deep, as is the anti- social democracy. its a libertarian cess pit in that way, which is also part of its anti-communism as evinced by the Brit post above mine who is hacing his or her fantasy about the Queen and good old days. white man's burden, indeed.

People come to work here, under such difficult conditions, because it is better money and better work than they can get back home. FDHs and working class or poor mainlanders alike. It is HARD life for them here but relatively better. Its that simple. Its about money. Wake up and smell the 3rd World around you-- life is much worse elsewhere.

roger9999 14 yrs ago

It is far too easy to play the "race card" on this issue . Sentiment may be racist in many instances but to label Government Policy on Immigration as "racist" is ludicrous to the point of stupidity . The HK policy on Right of Abode for FDH is purely "eletist" and ABSOLUTELY benefits the economies of all countries involved. The GNP of Philippines owes a hefty percentage of it's income to the industry of remittance of money to the Philippine relatives of FDH's and other contract workers working abroad , not just HK but also many countries in the Middle East , PNG , Australia and more . Introduced by GB in the early years of HK's colonialisation , importing FDH as servants and maids ,nannies , butlers and drivers was a tradition of the Brits practised in all of its colonies including , African countries , India , Ceylon , Palestine and many more . They also made good use of cheap labour in Australia by using convict labour and also by employing convicts who had completed their sentences and were once again "free citizens" . Later , in the last century , Australia also adopted this and employed very cheap domestic help in Papua New Guinea by employing "house boys" who were trained by local Missionaries to fill these positions . FDH contribute enormously to HK's local economy . (I dare say)that many Law Makers and those involved in contributing to decisions made in Government concerning the policy of domestic help themselves have helpers working for them . So too do judges , magistrates , police Chiefs and many of the HK Chinese employers who hold jobs in the upper and middle echelons .The system was designed by them , for them ....so why on earth would they deny themselves this "luxury" and why would they risk detriment to HK's local economy by changing policy allowing FDH to become PR and thus able to demand a higher wage which would then put so many of them out of work unable for many present employers to afford their services .

FIFIB 14 yrs ago

They are great support to families like mine with no relatives in HK and husbands travelling all the time.

But yet I agree DH should not be granted PR, all of a sudden we will have the whole Phillipines in here.

I know some Phillipinas that have married expats and they bring their sisters, cousins etc that's the way they do it.

My husband is American he became PR 10 years ago, it never crossed his mind or was never ask by his relatives to bring them here.

Same in my case, I have been PR for 3 years now and none of my family members have dream about moving to hk.

We would have a huge problem for spaces at schools, medical care, etc

spurtio 14 yrs ago

FIFIB, in fact Wkt's 4/5 figure is a little low in fact. From the last census figures it showed that no more than 13% of HK households had FDHs. This figure was posted in another thread a couple of weeks back.

I assume that everyone you know, and most of the families in your bldg, pays salaries tax too (even single people). You may be surprised therefore to find out that not 100% of people in HK pay salaries tax. The Government states that less than 35% of the employed poplulation pay salaries tax! :-)

Julie44 14 yrs ago

FIFIB, I am sorry but you don't make any sense.

All the people you know in HK are probably earning a good living, so they all have helper. People here are not talking about the top 10% of the HK population...they are talking about everyone.

Also, your in laws don't want to move to HK because the are living in country where they have rights, could have benefits, could go to great school, have a passport allowing them to go everywhere in the world...etc...so of course they do not need to migrate to another country.

However, when you are coming from Philipines, you want to get the residency in one of these rich /developed countries...because that means to have the medicare, free school, possibility of a better life, a passport to go to most places..etc...

Coming from Europe, I agree with many posts when they say that Europe is now struggling with the flux of immigration we had for the past years...Most of the immigrants asked for housing, have free school, free medicare, getting benefits form gov...As the result, the people working have to pay higher taxes (taxes have raised in UK), have not anymorre benefits (school have no space anymore, children are 40 per class, you need to wait 2 months to see a specialist because he is overbooked..etcc...)

So, now, I am really in favor of selective immigration... You need people who contribute to the economy...by contributing, I mean, paying taxes, and spending their money in the country. I don't believe DH should have the right to become permanent resident bceause it will not bring anything to the HK economy (they will probably keep on sending most of their money in phil), and will probably increase the taxes for people working and paying taxes in HK (to pay for housing, school, medicare..)

roger9999 14 yrs ago

White Kiwi Trash ....Local economy is the spending of money , the purchasing of goods and services , the remittaance of monies abroad , the spending of money on air-fares , purchasing of "load" for their phones , purchasing of the many gifts they send or carry back with them , the fees paid to agencies for employment and travel and other local businesses , patronage of local restaurants , so many other ways that they (300,000) contribute to local economy . By not educating yourself on certain topics and terminology before making comment in a public forum , you are doing yourself a dis-service by advertising your limited knowledge .

FKKC 14 yrs ago

roger9999

Guess you are the one that needs some educating!

Good one wkt!

notaeuropean 14 yrs ago

madtown, why in god's name do you think the FDH's come here?

you are not in fact looking at this from the helper's point of view.

there is zero chance of this case working out in their favor, btw. there is no right to enter or emigrate to another country, at least on this planet.

a blanket amnesty/PR status for fdh's would be disastrous for the HK economy, and would in fact put an end to the FDH system except for the very rich and beloved rentiers.

That would be bad for the helpers AND for the third-world countries they hail from. You're also assuming that these particular litigants are speaking for all the fdh's. IN fact one of them in this thread disagrees with you and them.

as for spending in the local economy, it is really foolish to think they would STOP sending those remittances back if they have PR. Again, why do you all think these folks are coming here??

I'd support reform of the current system in a heartbeat, and maybe more money and etc. But it is right and just for the HK government, or any gov. to control and legislate and manage immigration

FKKC 14 yrs ago

"There is a reason the US and Europe don't import cheap labor from central america/eastern europe to be FDHs............can you guess why?

Why? Please enlighten us MADTOWN!

Susie1 14 yrs ago

Because both parents sometimes have to work in HK, to afford schooling, housing, other bills, and of course tax, then a helper is essential to these people.

If a mother doesn't work, there is no need to have a helper unless the mother is ill, if they are expats, they wouldn't have this cheap labour in their own countries, and how are they going to cope if they go back home and do everything for themselves again? If they have children by choice, then children should ideally be brought up with the guidance of the parents, not a helper, from a different culture, with often different values.

Yes, agree with KWT, helpers do spend a lot of time gossiping in the park, or while out shopping with their friends, or on their phones. I have also witnessed some who are useless, left in charge of a child or even a dog. I fact the a couple of months ago, a helper-chatting on her mobile- got on a DB bus, with an empty childs trolley, and forgot the 18 month old stood at the bus stop-too pre occupied on her phone, luckily another passenger pointed this out to her, and the toddler finally got on the bus unharmed.

If creche/nursery facilities were available for 3 months up, many families would not need a helper at all, and the babies and children would be in the safe care of properly trained nursery nurses. If HK introduced this to be like most 1st world countries, cheap labour would not have to be imported. Any home help with cleaning could use local HK people to do this, on a part time basis.

Mothers work at home is very important, and her house work is under rated, and so is bringing up their own children where they can.Being a Mum at home is a full time job, you need many hands, but it can be done, many all over the world do it, without a helper.

sampaguita 14 yrs ago

Me (Resident) and a friend (DH) had discussed this issue. Of course she wants to be a Resident, she is over 35 years old, she was here in hongkong for 10 years... she graduated from 2nd year college mass communication but she hasnt put this into practice.. But she realise her age and her lack of experience could just land her a Waitress Job like SOME other HK Resident children who cannot speak Cantonese or work in a Filipino bank (around HK$5900), how many applicants she has to compete. So if she is lucky, she can earn $8,000... Room is $2800, food etc, sending to Philippines... Housing, she has to queue, CSSA - they have to check her background... I have friends who can only let their children finish Form 3 or 4 because there are no more free education after that in HongKong....After this matter win or lose, the pitiful ones will be the ones when HK will implement a strict law that allows them to work here max 4 years.. Just like in Taiwan, they are only allowed 3 years, then they go home, change into a new passport with a new name and then work again...If they lose in this Court Battle, give them long service pay regardless of how many years they work, give them double pay, invite their children to come here....You will certainly be happy when you see your helper's children come here all excited to their mom, go to disneyland, get to buy stationaries etc.. it really would warm your heart even tho the chidlren are not yours.. you will find them so innocent and their mother happy that their children could at least enjoy a short moment in HongKong... Believe me....

roger9999 14 yrs ago

Kiwi trash ....Forget about the economy on an intelligent level .....it may be above you . Check spelling mistakes and typos ....then re check your own spelling . But to be an easier task for you , travel down to Central and Causeway Bay on a weekend and spot the thriving trade being done by all the local businesses & DHs and observe the 100 yard long lines of DHs with cash in hand waiting to spend it on various products and promotions .....you will find the answer . Maybe . This is "local economy" .

roger9999 14 yrs ago

WKT ....Apologies ...... must have been a typo .

190k 14 yrs ago

Did the FDH's come here to work and set up a home?? No they did not set up a home to adopt HK as thier place of residence. Whether they be from Philipines, Thailand, Srilanka where ever FDH's came here with the understanding that they are not being "ordinarily resident" to work in some one elses home and not set up thier own. Vert different from those who come here set up a home pay rent and pay tax. Maybe the Govt should change all the criteria and just say that those born here, had a parent or grand parent born here are the only ones entitled to PR that would solve the whole problem thus all expats would only be accepted residents if they paid taxes for 7 years or more thus can be seen as contributing to society and deserving of residency. FDH's yes they work hard and help HK people go out and work and that is thier only contribution the money they earn goes away from our shores and they don't pay tax so why should they deserve residency??

Brooklynexpat 14 yrs ago

@bitchybell - I'm sure they wouldn't mind dining at the local restaurants if they would get paid enough money to afford eating there. DH's are earning less than minimum wage and for the most part are hardworking, decent people. I have a domestic helper and treat her very respectfully. The result was her and her friends have been instrumental in helping me through my heart surgery and other things and I consider them family. You try sleeping in a closet sized room, working 12 hour days without OT for minimum wage and being away from home. Walk a mile in their shoes and comeback and talk that same bull****.

lucas.ogara 14 yrs ago

> FDH's yes they work hard and help HK people go out and work and that is thier only

> contribution the money they earn goes away from our shores and they don't pay tax

> so why should they deserve residency??

Their (according to you) "only" contribution is a large one. In households where they are employed, they free up one of the adults for work. The remittances that they send back to their families are dwarfed by the money earned by that second breadwinner even if the household ends up paying no taxes or very little in taxes (recall that only about 35% of HKers pay any salary tax at all). In addition, hiring a full-time local to work in one's home would cost much, much more than a dh's minimum salary.

> queuing up at baleno for tee shirts is not contributing to the economy here but

> the mainland tourists queuing at LV, Gucci stores everyday!!!

Most of the money from those purchases, minus the very low shop assistants' salaries and the rent, which goes to the property hegemons' treasure vaults, flows out of HK. You know that LV, Gucci, Prada, et al. are not HK brands, correct?

> DHs don't even dine at local restaurants which is a business really makes money.

> you will only see them eating/buying food at the stores selling the food from

> motherlands...owners of those stores send money back their same motherlands as

> well.

Neither my wife nor I dine in local restaurants if we can avoid doing so -- execrable food, hopeless service, etc. Hopefully, the hefty amounts that we pay in taxes each year will earn us a reprieve from being tossed out of HK on grounds of not appreciating Canto cuisine in the event that you rise to power.

> so what kind of contribution they are giving here???

See my earlier comment directed at 190k. Imagine that all of the fdh's disappeared. In many households, one parent would have to drop out of the workforce (for at least several years - assuming that they were only using the fdh to provide childcare and not elder care and that the adults could get all of the cleaning/errand-running/etc. done themselves) and/or local p/t helpers would have to be hired at much greater expense.

The dh's also make an intangible, but IMHO very important, psychological contribution to HK society. Fully seventy percent of local television drama programming seems to consist of poorly-written, produced, and directed period costume dramas -- wherein servants figure very prominently and the plot seems to revolve around complex but pointless machinations to amass/save/avoid giving others "face". I don't think it's any accident that those shows are so popular here.

Most locals couldn't hope to afford to employ a fellow HKer to serve them and cater to their every whim, stand quietly and be rebuked for (imagined) misdeeds, etc. but the availability of cheap foreign domestic helpers allows HK's middle class to at least get a taste of the sort of lifestyle that they see portrayed in their favorite TV shows. Their bosses may yell at them, they may have to vacation in SE Asia instead of Europe or N. America like one of their better-off friends, but they are able to go home and be kowtowed to by (and, too often, take out their frustrations on) someone over whom they have almost absolute authority.

Brooklynexpat 14 yrs ago

@190K - There are plenty of locals from Hong Kong who make minimum wage, which is still more then DH's make and many of them do not pay taxes either. Does that mean they don't deserve residence ? ! My issue is DH's get treated like crap by many people they work for, particularly the local Chinese. The locals seem to think DH's are their slaves. One DH shared a story of her friend that worked for a Chinese family and was not allowed to go out in the evening after finishing work. That is slavery. I have heard many of these stories. Just treat people with respect.

sampaguita 14 yrs ago

I also heard stories from my friends that some (minority) goes to bars, wait for a good fish and got pregnant.. Im not saying all are like that.. Its because of these stories that some employers dont allow their helpers to go out in evenings. We cannot just say HongKong.. Taiwan, Singapore and Middle East Countries they dont allow their maids to go out in the evenings. Like I said earlier, Philippines is a big and resourceful country. It takes a good strong uncorrupt President and people who love their country very much to make Philippines a better place to live in...

lucas.ogara 14 yrs ago

> again...I'M LOCAL...know about the situation here much better than YOU!!

Actually, I don't think that you know what's going on in HK better than I do. My being non-Chinese and having been born somewhere else doesn't automatically make me ill-informed. Your having been born in HK, presumably the child or grandchild of someone who moved to HK from the Mainland, likely with no visa at all (this is not an insult but rather a statement of fact given that HK had a population of 600k at the end of WW2, endured mass refugee migrations afterwards, and has a population of 7 million today), doesn't make you better-informed than me or anyone else contributing to this thread.

If the law were changed to permit fdh's to live outside their employers' homes and they paid for their housing and most of their meals out of their wages, as low-income HKers do, would you support permanent residency for those who had been living continuously in HK for seven years?

lucas.ogara 14 yrs ago

HK's problem is not lack of space.

The problem is that the government has been partially captured by the large real estate tycoons, who exert every ounce of their strength to ensure that additional housing comes onto the market as slowly as possible in order to ensure the maximum profit. Since residential development tends to be more and more integrated with retail and transport as time goes on (ex. MTR builds a station, erects a shopping mall on top of it, and then puts apartment blocks on top of that and around it), it is to their benefit to crowd people together as tightly as possible.

Then there are the small potato real estate speculators, holding onto empty flats, waiting to sell or trying to find tenants to gouge, and never lowering rents, playing the odds and hoping that someone will pay their ludicrous rent instead of the just-as-insane rents being demanded by the owners of the other dozen or so empty flats in the same building. Then there are all of the people who bought into the market at inflated prices who will jump out windows and in front of trains if the paper value of their apartments drop.

sampaguita 14 yrs ago

Bitchybell, I know your concern, I was referring to a post Brooklynexpat posted that DH not allowed to go out in the evenings after work, I was telling why some of my friends dont allow their maids to go out in the evenings. Night-time is full of temptation Im sorry to say, Even f I am a Local Filipina born here, I mingle with some FDH and a minority I mean minority really goes off having a good time to a extent that they get themselves into trouble. so that is why my Chinese friends and even expat family hesitant to allow them to go out in the evenings...My son just got married and with above average income of HK10,000.. $4500 has gone to the rent, the size of the flat 180 sq ft.. they called it Suite..My FDH friends were shocked and ask if it will go down so that in case they are grant PR, they a place to stay........... with their families..... I guess they still dont know how hard life can be.. Im a Sandwich class.. I cant get anything from the GOVT aside from the Medical treatment excluding medicines.... I guess majority of them that I mingle with thought everything is free in HongKong if you dont have money, free housing, free CSSA, free school books, free subsidized transporation, free medical...

Brooklynexpat 14 yrs ago

@Sampaguita - What FDH's do in their spare time should not be of concern to their employers if they are having a little fun. People have to live their lives.

@BitchyBell - I'm American and your people have flooded my country with Chinatown's and many of our jobs have been shipped overseas but you don't see me bitching about it. Back home many people complain about the financially poor Chinese immigrants and how they have the nasty habit of spitting on the floor. Every country has their own perception of different immigrant groups and I suppose they are no different then people in HK who constantly complain about the mainland Chinese and FDH's.

roger9999 14 yrs ago

Benefit to local economy and to the home country is enormously beneficial to both countries despite the sending of most of their savings back home . I would say that most expatriate workers here in HK who are on a fixed term contract for 6 months , 6 years or 26 years send most of their savings back home to their country to pay off mortgages or invest in property or for many other reasons ....just as FDHs do . But also like expatriates (who do pay taxes in HK) FDHs spend a percentage here in HK's economy .....MacDonalds is packed with foreign women , Clothes and gift shops are crowded with them .....most spend upwards of $300 a month on recharging phone credit alone . ALL this spending in HK is beneficial especially multiplied by the number of any single minority group . Money spent by employers on their helpers is still money circulating and helping the economy .Exactly the same as expatriates who spend locally . It matters not where it is spent or who spends it .....it is the circulation in local businesses and services where it is beneficial .....it ALL supports the economy .Any money sent out of the country cannot possibly be a "drain" on HK's economy .....it is an immense boost to the home country's economy . This is why I stated in tmy original thread that it benefits BOTH economies . This is why the HK governing body has its top economists maintaining this very effective and valuable scheme which has been benefitting HK for very many years . I would say that if the remittance of $1 billion dollars a month by Philippinas and Indonesians is a "drain" on HK's economy , then they would have put a stop to it so many years ago along with the $20billion a month that expatriates send home (That figure I pulled out of the air !....but it must be sizeable , surely ?)

notaeuropean 14 yrs ago

remarkable to see some American/gweilo expats, with no Chinese language skills and no DHs in their household, and most likely no kids and no plans on actually residing here, lecture the "locals" and the DHs in this thread.

FKKC 14 yrs ago

So right! Guess the Americans like to poke their noses into everything and leave the messes for others to clean up.

roger9999 14 yrs ago

WKT .....don't leave us .....we enjoy your contribution . If I said you were a wit , I would be half right .

punter 14 yrs ago

The issue is in the courts. What people "feel" or "think" about the issue is meaningless at the moment.

What does the law say about the issue?

Brooklynexpat 14 yrs ago

@FKKC - American companies employ about 10% of Hong Kong's population so why shouldn't they have a say in what goes on in countries where they have made sizable investments. Perhaps we should stay out of others' business and leave those third World ratholes to deal with their own problems, that way our government can spend the money at home and actually employ Americans.

@NotaEuropean - What the hell do you know about gweilo expats, do you know all of us personally ? I am married and living in Hong Kong. I work here and pay taxes here. I have a domestic helper and plan on having children so that puts a hole in your theory about gweilo expats.

notaeuropean 14 yrs ago

Hey brooklyn, been here much longer than you and yes I know you already. You are a common type. You also seem a bit dumb frankly. So, yes, you should stop trying to save "third world rat holes" (as you put it) and go back home. Great idea. Nobody is looking for you to be a savior. Your arrogance and chauvinism is bad enough without the missionary position piled on top of it. Your type only does more harm, as does your homeland.

ON the way back (in first class I am sure), suggest you read the novel, The Quiet American.

No companies have a right to have a say in governance, most esp foreign ones. Corporations aren't people, though that is a hard thing for an AMerican (Republican most likely) to understand I realize.

notaeuropean 14 yrs ago

And wait a second. Brooklyn you are married, dont have kids, AND employ a FDH? From what you say, I am sure you have doubled her wages up from the cruel HK rate too. Something is a bit fishy here and it aint the harbor. And regardless this lifestyle- position is very much removed from 99.99 percent of HK people. Even if you could speak their language, or Tagalog for that matter, they'd tell you to STFU.

lucas.ogara 14 yrs ago

> No companies have a right to have a say in governance, most esp foreign ones.

> Corporations aren't people, though that is a hard thing for an AMerican (Republican

> most likely) to understand I realize.

Thankfully, here in HK, large corporations exercise absolutely no influence over our sham-elected/Mainland-selected CE, his cabinet, and the functional-constituency-afflicted Legislative Council.

What's that? Tycoons? Real estate development cartels?

Many of the functional constituency seats are de facto controlled by a handful of corporations, puppeted in turn by the aforementioned tycoons?

Unpossible!

roger9999 14 yrs ago

I do believe that ALL people have the right to work at a career of their choice in a city and country of their choice . It is also their right to employ (or not) a domestic helper whether it is for house cleaning and cooking or primarily for child care or elderly care , allowing parents to pursue their careers and their dreams . No different to placing children in "child-care" centres (in Australia , and I guess NZ , USA , and Canada ) so that parents can work . Afterall.... FDHs all choose to come to HK (or a host country) from their homes . Some have children they leave behind and some do not . NOBODY, I believe , has the right to judge or speak negatively about anyone who does choose to live and work in a particular country , to employ or not to employ domestic help , or to fly first class or economy when travelling . It is very difficult for a "have-not" to understand why expatriates make use of and indulge in simple luxuries just as it is for the "haves" to understand why a nation of "less-priveledged" citizens collectively make little effort to escape their stations in life , prepared to remain that way and repeatedly elect a government that exploits its own citizens to a degree of criminality far worse than any expat or Chinese could treat them personally .

Philly Cheese 14 yrs ago

Good points all Roger. If HK had the kind of affordable childcare that is available in other western countries and HK working hours were more considerate of work-life balance, then I think many HK families would utilise these services rather than have to squeeze a stranger into their small flats. Unfortunately that is the situation that HKers face and given the relatively large pool of cheap labour, hiring from this pool became the best option. No one forced the helpers to come here so all the references to slave labour is way off base. However, they did come knowing the situation - ie they do not qualify for PR because according to their contracts they must return every two years so the 7 years continuous stay requirement cannot be met.

Is it fair? - well I would argue the govt has to be fair to its own citizens before it can worry about others. Furthermore, since the helpers are more or less granted access for work rather than having to justify that a local cannot perform their duties, then I think the existing arrangement is fair and that it is transparent.

Bringing in race is also not relevant as there are many Pilipino archetects, musicians (I know several personally), nurses, etc and Indonesian bankers (a few of my friends) that work in HK and qualified as PR as they have gone through the normal channels. Suggesting that the only Pilipinos here are DHs is unfair to the many others that contribute in different ways to HK society.

sampaguita 14 yrs ago

Brooklyn Expat, Yes, they just want to have some fun.. But the problem is they are open to temptation..Believe me, sometimes I do involve myself in helping them. One mother abandon her 6 year old daughter and family because she got herself pregnant.. One driver had affairs.. Im not saying Chinese or other foreign wouldnt, we need to take care of them..Rem, we cannot fire a pregnant helper, than they have this family issues, they cannot concentrate at work..Oh sorry, the issue is about the PR Residency.. All countries have their own Immigration Rules so we just have to respect that.. If other countries are willing to lax in their law then HK should follow.... Immigration Rules in Philippines that a Foreign Spouse of a Filipina cannot own a land, it has to given to the children they bourne, can other nationals complain about this?... My helper work for me for 18 years, its up to her to decide whether she wil apply or not in case they win the law, I will be more willing to support her application but I could never support her due to the Min Wage Law...

jaysonmcjayson 14 yrs ago

My whole view about this topic and reading all the comments .EDUCATED PEOPLE/PERSON doesn't talk S**T about peoples/person culture or nationality. It’s a sign of IGNORANCE and DISRESPECT to humanity. Domestic Helpers, doesn't matter if they are Filipinos, Indonesians, Thais ET. Al they deserved to become a permanent resident if they are been living here for more than 7 years. They didn’t draft the Constitution Law or the Immigration Law. The mistakes are made by the law makers and it’s not the domestic helpers fault full stop. The law should be clear enough to ALL the immigrants not just to the domestic helpers. By the way, in so many ways Hong Kong had made a lot of considerations to the Domestic Helpers. They have made a law protecting their employment rights, insurance and many more. Police are also fair and just towards them.

Brooklynexpat 14 yrs ago

@notaeuropean - You really like to assume alot don't you lol. Perhaps I am dumb but definitely not common. Let me make the assumptions in this post. You appear to be one of those people that grew up in an upper middle class or rich family and are ashamed of your welath and high priced education. For the record I am not trying to be a savior to anyone. A guy like you with your fancy education and writing skills could never understand a guy in my position.

I am from a poor family, grew up in the Ghetto's of Brooklyn and survived situations in my life I doubt you ever could. I'm in Hong Kong because I worked hard for over twenty years and busted my ass. I am living proof that you do not have to have a high priced education to have some success in life. I have worked all over the United States, London, Paris, Hong Kong and Japan. despite the fact that you feel I'm dumb someone actually thought highly enough of my skills to bring me to Hong Kong.

Fly first class ? I think not. That would be more up your alley. I said some success but not on that level, yet ! Corporations may not be people but Government is here to represent the poor, middle class, rich, small businesses and large corporations. Unfortunately Government generally chooses to represent big business. I would love American companies to shutdown and go back home. They would take their 700,000 jobs from Hong Kong back to America and then the Americans, which you feel are such a burden can go home and work in their own homeland. By the way, where are you from ? I'm just curious and would love to hear about your priviledged upbringing. I always enjoy hearing stories about how the other half lives !

You mention chauvinism ?? I never made any chauvinistic comments or implied anything of that nature. The reasons why I have a FDH could never be comprehended by a pompous person such as yourself. I have seen some of your previous posts and you assume to know alot about America. Are you an American that is ashamed of where you come from ? I don't know but I am curious. Where do you get these ideas that Americans hate immigrants ? Our country is made up of immigrants and descendants of immigrants. Don't lump all Americans together. Perhaps you should stfu.

Brooklynexpat 14 yrs ago

There are two more things I would like to assume, since you make so many assumptions about other people:

1) You most likely make more money then I make.

2) I work alot harder than you do.

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