Posted by
quovadis
17 yrs ago
We all know in order for anyone to be a permanent resident, he/she should have stayed in Hong Kong for a minimum of 7 years.
But why seven? What's the rationale behind it? Don't you think it's quite long? I don't really want to compare, but in Singapore you can be a permanent resident after six months!
So why the fixation with seven years? Any luck soon that this can be shortened?
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I'm sure there's a rationale.
You can compare to SG and say HK is longer, but that's pretty much it. Both places both probably have (what seem to them) good reasons.
For comparison, in the US you need at least 5 years before you can apply for citizenship.
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The rationale behind it, as with most places where there is a significant period of time before you achieve permanent residency is you need to establish commitment to a place before they give it to you. (notwithstanding at least having paid some amount to the government in tax first for the rights they give you in return)
Having permanent residency enshrines you with certain rights, most notably the right of abode, which means that you have the right to vote in Hong Kong and the Hong Kong Government cannot deport you, even if you have committed a crime (Amongst other rights, like the right to work without a visa etc). Now why would they give either of those rights to people if they have only lived in Hong Kong for six months. It's not silly, the number of years may be arbitrary, but that is the governments prerogative, and as a permanent resident who has lived in Hong Kong all his life, personally I am glad it takes seven years, that gives it some meaning, rather than giving it out to any tom dick or harry who has come to Hong Kong and been here for just six months . Perhaps you should check what the status in Singapore means to the holder who has been there for just six months and what rights the status offers. I doubt very much Singapore would hesitate deporting someone who committed a crime after having been there just six months and achieved permanent residency as a result. If they do, then they are fools.
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OK if PR means so little to you, then renounce your permanent residency status, and hustle for a new work visa's every time your current one expires, somehow I think you would prefer not too. Being able to vote might be meaningless to you, it is meaningless for me. Nevertheless it is a right we are both entitled to (assuming you are a PR), the fact that we choose not to exercise it and are apathetic are our own issues. There will be millions of people who will not vote in the US presidential elections, and that is for the position of the most powerful person on the planet. Just because you feel your vote has no meaning has no bearing on your current situation or will not affect any outcome, does not mean it is not a valid right that you are entitled to.
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gum
17 yrs ago
I believe in Singapore you need to renew/reapply your PR status every 5 years.
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Ed
17 yrs ago
HK PR is gold... if AsiaXPAT were to fail I could in theory be able to stay in Hong Kong driving a minibus because I dont require a work visa...
More importantly though you cannot get APEC status without HK PR status, and that card is the most valuable thing I own...
And btw I am on my way to Shanghai in a couple of hours and I dont need a visa because of my PR/APEC so CM might want to reconsider the value of HK PR...
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To ED is gold, but to Chrisitan_Moore is rubbish..... May be it is the difference between someone who really works and lives here with someone who only 'stays' here for the convenience of going to China.
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Having HK PR is a very good thing. Not having to front up to immigration every 2 years is just a small benifit.
Being able to vote in local elections is something I am proud of. There are people in neighbouring countries dying to be able to have that right to vote. Sure, I can't vote for Donald, but in my small way I do make a difference in my local area.
Isn't it ironic a country that expels their views about democracy to so many other countries, through invasions, puppet governments etc, yet when it is time to vote, millions do not. It seems that these type of people would rather complain about other countries than vote themselves.
Maybe one or two of the posters here share this view about complaining rather than exercising their given rights. Even people native to their own country get treated differently either because of religion, skin colour or other beliefs. Do not think it is just in Hong Kong, look in your own backyard first. If you let it bother you, then they win. Just go with it!
Digital Blonde has made a very good point. Nobody is forcing you to have HK PR, if you don't like it, then give it up.
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Actually what i find interesting is after 7 years you can simply obtain the PR almost as your 'right' Even if you live in the US for five years or so or Canada or whatever...you still have to apply for citizenship and you may not even get it. It seems you can live here for seven years and become PR...that's not so bad.
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Ed
17 yrs ago
APEC business travel card info is here http://www.apec.org/apec/business_resources/apec_business_travel0.html
If you are a permanent resident or citizen of a member country and you are doing enough business travel in the region you can get visa free access to other member countries.... and you fast track through the diplomatic channel.
I of course qualify because I have to travel around taking photos for Eds Adventures...
Actually, there are some fairly strict criteria that should be on that site (I doubt taking photos for a web site would get you over...)
Its a nice feeling to arrive at an airport and see that massive q of people at immigration .... and bypass it to the diplomatic/APEC line which is always empty - I wonder though, if I were to fill a 'diplomatic pouch' full of Molson if they would allow that through without applying duty....
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Christian
""After 7 years we can vote !!, but for who exactly and for what, and you mention certain rights ? like being treated differently to people of another race. Until I can travel to China without a visa, it is all rubbish."
Either I misinterpreted your meaning or your wording was a bit... misleading.
"If you are born here to non chinese parents you still need to mess around getting a visa to China..." Hmmm, we are talking about PR in Hong Kong. The visa to China is 'still' decided by Chinese Govt so I dont think we can do much about it...
In fact, it is China who has different rules to different nationalities.... harsh on the brits but lenient toward the Japs.
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"if you live more than 6 months ie 180days outside any time before the 7 years are completed then they(immigration dept) will ask you for a reason if they feel your reason for absence of stay is valid they will process your PR if not they will count 7 years from after your absence."
Very similar to US Permanent Resident Status (AKA "Green Card").
BTW is this 180 consecutive days or total within a year or...?
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7 Years is nothing for a PR. In Canada, the standard time for procesing your PR visa application is 5 - 6 years. The you only have a pr visa, not citizenship.
Australia and New Zealand also take about 2 - 3 years to process your pr application.
Different countries have different situations regarding immigration and therefore different immigration laws. The engineers and scientists that went to the USA before and after WW2 have contributed hugely to American technologist knowhow. From Einstein to Louis Sullivan. Their construction industry, medical science and NASA itself would not be where it is today had they not received these immigrants.
In South Africa, our government allows anyone from Africa without any paper work to stay here. Currently about 10% of our population consists of immigrants with no documentation, neither any skills. Most of them come from extremely violent societies. We also have the world's highest violent crime rate. Our murder rate is higher than anywhere in the world, including countries at war! Now, everyone with any sort of qualification (like myself) is leaving. Can you imagine what that does for the future of a once prosperous country like South Africa?
I can expand on this a lot, but the point is that immigration can have a very serious effect on any society. If a prosperous region, like Hong Kong had to allow people full citizen rights after only six months' stay, can you imagine the consequences?
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Slashing down the seven years to six months would obviously be a big leap, and is thus too impossible to even dream of. But how about reducing it to just five years? I'm pretty sure anyone who has lived in Hong Kong for five years (or four, or three, or two years) would've already established enough commitment to earn the same rights...
Actually I've only been here for three years and I feel that I've already spent a considerable part of my life working here. I've met new friends here, shared my talents, paid my taxes and even memorized some of the lesser known places in the New Territories. That's how I love Hong Kong!
I find this city really fascinating that I even consider getting a Hong Kong passport. But then I don't have Chinese blood and according to the immigration website, only Chinese citizens can apply for a Hong Kong passport....but that's a different story...
I still think seven years is way too long!
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"I'm pretty sure anyone who has lived in Hong Kong for five years (or four, or three, or two years) would've already established enough commitment to earn the same rights..."
That's subjective. I have lived in the United States for a total of almost 6 years. Yet I felt no compunction about leaving for HK.
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cd
17 yrs ago
To Ebow3d, after 7 years here you can only get PR not citizenship. They are different things.
We got our PR after 8 years, the biggest thing for us apart from not having to renew visas every 2 years was that we could finally claim the tax allowance for having a disabled dependant.
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"BTW is this 180 consecutive days or total within a year or...?"
A cumulative total within a year.
"As for as HK im pretty happy with current regulation but onething does cause is even after you get your PR if you stay away from HK for over 3years you loose your PR Status."
No. You lose your Right of Abode, not your Right to Land.
"I find this city really fascinating that I even consider getting a Hong Kong passport. But then I don't have Chinese blood and according to the immigration website, only Chinese citizens can apply for a Hong Kong passport....but that's a different story..."
Agreed, this is the part that is very different to the other places that have been mentioned. Unless you renounce your own citizenship you are unable to apply for passport and Chinese citizenship........funny how a Chinese person is a Chinese, is a Chinese. People deemed as Chinese by the authorities can carry several foreign passports and still get a HK one!
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Ed, please delete. Problem with your server
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Why is China visa such an issue? HK Permanent residents can get upto 3 year multiple entry visas (except maybe the Brits), also you could get an APEC card as Ed mentioned. You can travel to China more easily than a HK Chinese.
As for 7 years, I really dont think why the government would even think about debating the shorter time frame. If it were 5 years, it would save a resident 1 hour to get that one more 2 year visa renewal, and that inconvenience is hardly compelling for the govt to ponder on.
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Why is China visa such an issue? HK Permanent residents can get upto 3 year multiple entry visas (except maybe the Brits), also you could get an APEC card as Ed mentioned. You can travel to China more easily than a HK Chinese.
As for 7 years, I really dont think why the government would even think about debating the shorter time frame. If it were 5 years, it would save a resident 1 hour to get that one more 2 year visa renewal, and that inconvenience is hardly compelling for the govt to ponder on.
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"I still think seven years is way too long!"
Why should the government of Hong Kong change the length of time it takes to achieve PR, for someone who thinks in their opinion it should be shorter, especially for someone who has only been in Hong Kong for 3 years. For a start that is not fair to those people who paid six years worth of taxes and then left not achieving PR, or those people who have paid the full seven years worth of taxes and made the grade.
The fact that you think it should be shorter is completely meaningless has no bearing on anything and counts for nothing, irrespective of whether you love the city. I love New York, I think it is a great city and a wonderful place to live. I don't expect the US government to grant me citizenship any time soon, and certainly do not expect them to change their regulations based on what I think and my opinion.
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"People deemed as Chinese by the authorities can carry several foreign passports and still get a HK one!"
Well the ability to carry multiple passports is hardly unique to China/HK. My daughters have dual citizenship for example.
BTW just a nitpick. Being a citizen does not require a passport.
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"Well the ability to carry multiple passports is hardly unique to China/HK. My daughters have dual citizenship for example."
I think you missed the point slightly! My daughter for example holds HK passport and UK. What I am saying is HK Chinese can hold foreign passports and still get HK one. If for example you wanted to get an HK passport you would have to renounce citizenship first and then become naturalised Chinese. This is in fact different to many other places.
"Why is China visa such an issue? HK Permanent residents can get upto 3 year multiple entry visas (except maybe the Brits), also you could get an APEC card as Ed mentioned. You can travel to China more easily than a HK Chinese."
HK permanent residents could get 3 years, some Brits have 5 and 10 year visas... But try to get one now, regardless of whether you are a PR or not you will simply not get one. And APEC card, well yes in theory it does work, BUT and it is a big BUT try adding China. It will get added, but after a year or 2........ And travelling more easily to China than an HK Chinese, how do you work that out? With a return home permit locals are able to reside and work in China and have no passports to cross the border...it's much easier for my wife and daughter than for me.
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"axptguy38 said ""Unless the computer is quite old this should not be a problem.""
Well, there's still a lot of "nearing obsolescence" Laptops (which can not handle WPA) out there - so I cater for the "least busty" [less well endowed] Laptops instead of "Cutting them dead"."
Oh I see. But how exactly to they define "Chinese"? Such things are hardly clear cut.
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In the end, its a simple matter: Hong Kong is a prosperous city, thus it will attract many migrants, both skilled and unskilled. However, it is also a particularly densely populated city, and thus cannot afford to have an uncontrolled number of migrants in.
In my personal experience, however, it is fairly easy to get to live in Hong Kong. Getting a working visa takes only 4 weeks! I do realise that is a long way from a pr visa, and even further away from citizenship. However, one has to know that you are living in somebody else's 'house' so-to-speak - you have to respect that.
Many years ago I used to work with an immigrant from Belgium. Everyday he used to complain bitterly about conditions here in South Africa. The first question in everyone's mind was: "Wtf is he doing here, if this is such a terrible place?" freaking loser...
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Quo Vadis. I think Sing PR and HK PR are very different. I think the Singapore version is semi-permanent unless you decide to take up citizenship - it lapses very quickly if you leave. In HK, it lapses after 3 years but you are still entitled to live and work in HK so long as you have done your seven years and have not commited a crime resulting in a prison sentence over 5 years. FYI, you don't need to have Chinese blood to get Chinese citizenship. You just need a link with China (family and in some case birth) and not have/have renounced foreign citizenship. My wife is HK Chinese so I would qualify but I don't want to give up my UK passport. My kids, though, hold both UK and HK Chinese passports (and return homeland passes).
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hi robkemp, I can check with British Consulate but may be quicker to ask you. My daughter has got the British citizenship but I havent applied a UK passport for her, thinking that the HKSAR passport is useful enough anyway. Well, at least visa-free for most of the countries that we need to go. Just out of interest, how much did it cost you to get the UK passports for your kids?
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Mighty, takes less than 60 secs to find on Brit Consulate website http://ukinhongkong.fco.gov.uk/en/passports/passport-fees
Got one for my daughter in May for HK$1220. Bit steep compared to HK$180 for her HK one!
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Tks evildeeds... very pricey indeed. Guess HKSAR is good enough for her for now.
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HK PR is permanent - the only proviso is that the holder is present in HK once every three years, only then does it lapse, basically.
The Sing PR has to be renewed, I think every 3 or 5 years, so is really little more than long term visa. Also, I think you will find the take up of Sing PR is very low as it comes with the burden of paying 30/40% of salary into the infamous Provident Fund.
As to the original question, why 7 years? I don't know. I would prefer the Government to make it longer rather than shorter.
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When I look at the ROA rules it says " lived in HK " and mentions such things as demonstrating HK is your place of residence..
So question.. Do I have to work in HK for the seven years or if I leave my job before the seven years but remain in HK.. Is that still valid?
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abl
13 yrs ago
Paul 72 - so what are the rules in your home country regarding foreign immigrants? Would they have granted permanent residency or citizenship to these domestic helpers? All expats who do not have a PR here need to have their visa renewed periodically for a reason - the HK government wants to ensure that expats are here to contribute and not to compete with locals for jobs that locals can fill easily. I believe that any government anywhere worth their salt should be doing the same for their citizens. Criteria for the entry of domestic helpers are very different from the average expat and the concern among local citizens that they will compete for lower-end jobs is very real. There are many professional Philipinos and Indonesians here as expats so it is not a racial issue either. So take your rant somewhere else when this place has been so accomodative to expats in general. Not to mention that the whole legal tussle concerning PR for DHs is being funded by very generous, mainly Hong Kong taxpayers and the case is being given a very fair hearing.
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Singapore permanent residency isn't permanent unless you are a Singapore citizen. HK permanent residency for non-Chinese remains permanent as long as you touch base (I think it is every 3 years but not sure). Also, in HK, a former HK permanent resident (non-Chinese citizen) still has the right to live and work in HK - as long as he/she has not been sentenced to more than 5 years in jail. I think you are confusing 'permanent residency' with 'residency'. What qualifies for permanent residency in Singapore is actually residency anywhere else.
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It was seven years before the handover and it is seven years now in the Basic Law. not as long as the UK which I think is ten.
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abl
13 yrs ago
Madtown, the locals are also up in arms against mainland chinese mothers who come here to give birth in order to give their children residency, in case you haven't heard?! And they are also against DHs getting PR, so the HK government is aligned with its citizens' opinions on this issue. So Paul 72 - the court hearing is to determine exactly what the legal rights of the DHs are, isn't it? Unless you think it's fair only when the verdict is to your liking.. And you haven't exactly answered whether your home country would give PR or something similar to DHs. It's so easy to resort to breast-beating when the benefits are funded by someone else and not exactly yours to give away, that is my point, and I don't see why the Hong Kong people and their government cannot determine who and how much they give these benefits to?! And bringing in DH's pay and working conditions, no matter how valid, to bear in this case is rather lame because it's a totally different issue?
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Madtown,
If the HK Government eliminated the scheme, it would be a blow for those unfortunate people for whom being a domestic helper in Hong Kong is actually a big financial help for themselves and their families.
There is no way that the path to residency for DHs will be changed, and it is also unlikely that the rule of 7 years would be changed.
So I guess that things will stay as they are, for the forseeable future. I would imagine that most DHs would rather have the employment opportunity, than not.
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vak
13 yrs ago
you seem to have missed some critical points here. The visa segregation and right to PR is not based on nationality but the class of visa under which you first came here.
Living here for 7 years does NOT AUTOMATICALLY grant you PR based on attendance. I have been here 25 yrs and have been on an HKSAR passport for 6 yrs with many expat friends doing the same now. Sponsored family, business staff and DH visas so been through the hoops. The legal interpretation of the ordinance is one thing and its implementation is another. As an example to get an HKSAR passport you need to have fluency in Cantonese but that rule is seldom implemented and officers usually do not enforce it. However their right to do so has always been there. Maybe they enforce it when they see a surge in applications. What used to take 2 months now takes 14 months to process.
There are many conditions that come along with the PR. One of them is to have sufficient means to justify your existence in HK. In theory Drivers, Cooks and DH come in a separate classification and usually in an income bracket below 6000/month way below the radar screen of the IRD. This is where many low income HKSAR residents get sensitive. Many would not like to do these jobs in the 1st place but also like to hold the reins for their employees in this category as they feel the PR thing will lead to a rise in these salaries eventually. Its almost like holiding the helpers to ransom.
I know a few Fillipino residents in HK who came on NON DH visas and have the same rights as anyone else past the 7 yrs.
On the other side of the coin its about statistics. Most foriegn passport holders number less than 35000 to 40000 per passport in HK and the major groups like Aussie, British, USA, Indian, German, French would collectively not be more than 350000. They usually come from countries with a reasonable good standard of living but most come for better economic returns here and while doing so are paying between 10 to 16% taxes.
The DH numbers however come to nearly 400000 most on the min wage of less than 4k/month.
Most people who come on a work visa usually earn a min of 15 to 25k/month to even qualify for an employment visa. Once they have been here for 7 yrs and prove they have the financial means to not be a burden on the HK tax payer , they can get the PR. This is where it gets tricky. Its upto Immigration to determine who they think can survive on their own and who will be a burden.
Rather than segregate the PR status based on Visa category it will be fair to segregrate it based on economic status as that is really what the govt intends to do in the 1st place.
Nothing to be ashamed of as most countries like Canada, Australia have a point based system anyway for prequalifying future immigrants.
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I inherited a full-time DH when I started work with one of the big banks in the eighties, she had been working for the previous bank exec whose flat I chose, otherwise I doubt that I would have thought about having one (as a single man at the time).
She ended up working for me for the best part of ten years, and told me a lot about her experiences as a DH (for expats only) and those of her friends. Their lives were usually pretty bad in Hong Kong, treated as inferiors by everybody. She also told me that the law in the Philippines discriminated against women when it came to marital property, and that is one of the reasons that women are often forced into working overseas, as a DH (if they are lucky).
Perhaps it would be better to put some of our moral outrage to work in the countries where these women's homes are - most of them do want to return there, they usually have children, aging parents, and even husbands for whom they are providing.
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vak
13 yrs ago
Won Ton, for academic purposes I had pulled out some stats on the HK population for an unrelated project for the yr closing 2011 from census and stats. When I mentioned 400000 I was using a generic number for people from all nationalities working in the categories of DH/Driver/Cook. basically anyone who has limited immigration rights. In terms of break down here it is. It was not related to PH domestics ONLY so maybe the actual no is say 320000 or 350000. Have a look at these numbers and you will see where immigration is coming from in terms of setting a precedent. As an expat population the DH/Cook/Driver visa category makes up over 65% of total expats in HK, while not contributing in a proportional way towards taxes. From the remaining 35% expats I would say the percentage of people with PR paying a full whack 16% tax may be quite high.
here is a break down for those with a keen interest.
Chinese Domiciled in HK 6.5 million/ domiciled elsewhere 100000.
Indonesian 140000, FP 135000,Thai 14000.
british 33000/Indian 26000/Pakistani 17000/USA 17000/Aussie 18000/Nepali 16000/Japanese 13000 and Others 58000. This is population stats based on nationality.
There is another stat based on ETHNICITY. Many Chinese for instance have Aussie/Canadian passports. etc. However it does not change much for EXPATS in terms of numbers.
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I dont quite agree that DH's are being pulled away from their families. They are coming to HK by their own will.
BTW it is quite amazing that there are some who manage to turn the focus in every post to the plight of the poor domestic helpers ...
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It's called compassion, Rob, and it is not actually all that amazing.
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abl
13 yrs ago
Well madtown, most expats from the rich western countries do not appear to have any qualms about hiring a DH once they arrive in Asia. There is nothing to prevent you from paying a DH $30,000 a month and giving her an 8-hour workday and a five-day work week if you think that is what the job is worth and should be all about. And woods99, you obviously did not fire your "inherited" helper because you realised she needed a job. By the same extension I don't see western consumers, including yourselves I'm sure, boycotting products made in third world countries where it can be guaranteed that labour conditions are worse than western countries. The reality is as long as some countries are much poorer than the rest some form of arbitrage will go on. It is up to the individual employer to do what is right by their DH.
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I sent in my permanent residency paperwork over 2 months ago. I've heard no word back on my case or even confirmation from the immigration dept. receiving my docs. Has anyone else had this problem? It's a little of a hassle as rounding those documents together isn't easy.
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abl,
I am not sure what point you are making to me about what I said about retaining the DH who was in situ in the bank apartment I moved into. Can you elaborate, please.
The best possible thing we can do as consumers is to buy the best quality products we can find at the lowest prices, if they happen to be made in third world countries, what of it? On balance, I am quite certain that creating employment in poor countries, especially when the outputs are of good quality in western terms, is almost always a good thing to do. The workers are learning skills, they are earning a higher income than they otherwise could (otherwise they would not be doing the work) and the standard of living of the whole country is increasing as a result.
If Africa could increase the value of its trade exports by just a few percentage points, poverty would be largely eradicated.
As a generalisation, respect for human rights (and the natural environment) tend to be greater in more prosperous countries. We should be encouraging prosperity, not thinking and acting like policemen.
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abl
13 yrs ago
Woods99,
Madtown just said the whole DH scheme is immoral, so my point is why do expats then find it ok to hire DHs once they come to Asia? And if anyone finds their employment terms so objectionable then similarly he or she could avoid all products and services made in third world countries as a matter of principle. Until they do so, I just find it rich that some people should assume that others who hire DHs must be setting out to exploit them.
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Madtown,
The only people i hear crying about the conditions DH's face in HK are not the DH's themsleves, but a few expats, probably in their 60's, who happened to form relationships with their domestic helper.
Wood99, if you are so compasionate, perhaps you could show some compassion for some of the locals in HK who are earning less than the DH's, working and living in worse conditions... and have no other choices.
Ed, perhaps its time a separate section in the forum was created where all who want to shed a tear for the poor DH's can do so, and spare the rest of us!
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Rob,
Thank you for your advice as to how I should exercise compassion. You make your choices, I will make mine, thank you all the same. As it happens, the locals that I have worked with over the years have all done very well out of life, perhaps because they have had the advantage of living in a place where the rule of law is still working pretty well for them.
Most DHs come from countries where that is not the case, and that is why they are reduced to working as domestic drudges.
You seem to have a bee in your bonnet for some reason. Care to share the reasons with us?
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vak
13 yrs ago
abl, woods99, rob. valid arguments. Guess the discussion was about HK as a host to immigrants rather than moral policing.
As I mentioned before its about economics and not racism from a govt point of view. I know quite a few Fillipinos in the shipping industry who are treated like any other expat in terms of rights / PR.
lets not forget the history of HK in the past 25 yrs. Its still 93% Chinese. HK was seen as too soft on immigrants both legal and illegal so the Whitehead detention centre was at one stage home to nearly 22000 Vietnamese boat people. Who paid for them? Well the locals here from their tax dollar. UNHCR never repaid those debts.
Now we have another 6500 so claimed UN refugees who have been living of the HK govt , some for over 8 yrs with 1100/month in a rental allowance and food every 10 days. Pretty good deal considering a DH makes 3800 after working 16 hrs a day. I have never seen locals protesting on streets to throw refugees out. So lets not discuss locals not being compassionate.
Madtown. from your analysis on Moral grounds, we should only buy branded products made in Paris (they hopefully pay their labourers min wage by EU rates) as everything else is Made in sweatshops in China/Bangladesh.
If a student slogs to study hard and become a doctor / banker , he has every right to be rich having worked for it. The one who dropped out of school can not cry foul in later years that he has no job prospects or similar oppurtunities just because he goofed around in school.
re your question as to why places like US/UK have no DH visas etc. Well you can hire a DH so long as you can pay a lot more and call her a NANNY. when you pay a lot more they have the same rights as everyone else on the immigration. And yes the US also does have a segregration policy. the H1 visa was implemented to avoid a sudden influx of immigrants while using their skills. they have a quota system each year based on your country of origin. Most H1 visa holders know they are living in USA on borrowed time but still que to go there. And they come from educated backgrounds while earning over 5 to 8k usd a month. the UK is now introducing tougher laws as well.
Historically MOST GOVTs will do everything possible to protect their own nationals economically specially when its the people in the lower salary segment. many have points schemes and others have min salary requirements.
The fact that the locals and mainlanders are already having a face off on the issue of mainland mums coming here to deliver kids, sponge on the health care and schooling here proves what I am trying to say.
It may be morally incorrect but the govt here and people are just not ready (financially and mentally) to accept maybe 150000 new PRs with a monthly income below 5k along with an option to bring another maybe 300000 people as spouses/kids on dependents visas.
The reality is that immigration DOES NOT grant even NON DH visas that easily now. You really have to prove the skills that you have benefit HK/ you have what they consider a base salary to have a decent life.
PS we do not employ a DH but know many families where 3 yr olds are unable to fetch a glass of water.
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vak
13 yrs ago
escapeartist, it usually takes 4-5 weeks. they count the 7 yrs from date of issue of 1st hkid card. there was a spike in applications last year to claim the 6000HKD.
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Woods,
To answer your question briefly, i find it somewhat annoying that there are some who continuously and single-mindedly do nothing other than talk about the poor conditions DH's face in HK, and somehow manage to turn every thread into verbal ping-pong with anyone who objects. Just read the OP's question, and Kayakking's 5 days ago, and you will see it has absolutely nothing to do with DH's.
Some people are unfit to own pets or father children, and they are equally unfit to employ maids, and I am not denying that some DH's are enduring less than desirable conditions, but to say that all DH's fit this category is bollocks. THe DH's i come across through some of my clients are more than happy, grateful for the opportunities this countrty has given them (as opposed to where they came from)and have good relationships with their employers. Whether their salary is insuffient compared to our own is irrelevant, the reality is that market value dictates their salary and if it wasnt more than they were earning back home then they wouldnt be flocking here by the thousands.
And Woods, if you think the definition of compassion is to believe this nonsense that all DH's are being brought here with arms and legs tied, and having to endure horrendous conditions then i need say no more to you.
THere are people much less fortunate in the world than DH's, coming from broken families, living in poverty or below, and having no hope for a future... and some of these happen to be HK locals.
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Back in the good old, bad old, days many expat families had a Chinese amah - DHs from other countries are a relatively recent phenomenon. When I first arrived, and moved into my flat at Red Hill (the old apartments, that's how long ago it was) I had a part-timer. My boss had a venerable full-time amah. She had eight children, each one of whom was either at university overseas or was working in a profession, again all overseas.
It was rumoured to be not at all unusual for expatriates to be living in a flat owned by their amah. When the old amahs retired, some of them moved to a village in Southern China, and formed a kind of retirement community among themselves.
Some Old China Hands married their amahs when they retired, they travelled back to the UK and lived happily ever after, with the amah of course inheriting the estate.
I wonder whether any of the old families still have a local amah? I would guess there would probably be a few around.
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abl
13 yrs ago
Madtown, just get over it. The Hong Kong government and its people do not owe citizens of other countries anything, other than on humanitarian grounds, and if you have reason to believe any DH here is abused, please help her file a case. Otherwise quit implying that the locals are racist and ill-treat DHs just because of the color of their skin. And if your home country wouldn't hire them as DHs because it's so immoral to exploit them this way, how about taking in and offering a few hundred thousand of these low-skilled ladies more dignified and better-paying jobs on par with locals, with benefits to boot such as welfare, PR/citizenship? The truth is - your country probably wouldn't even offer them ANY job, so quit dissing Hong Kong until you can do better. As they say, talk is cheap!
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One reason that DHs from places like the Phillippines are preferred is because they speak English fairly well, local families expect that some of this English aptitude rubs off on their kids.
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vak
13 yrs ago
madtown I feel there may be 2 explanations. Most mainlanders doing such jobs would not be English speakers while most Expats here would hire English speakers as DH. That restricts the target group to English speaking helpers coming here for better economic prospects. For local families the case may be diff and I agree their Putonghua skills could be useful. In addition there is a quota system in place form mainlanders trying to get here in the 1st place. Many spouses of HK residents need to wait years to get a dependent visa due to the quotas compared to other passport holders where a dependent visa is granted within 8-10 weeks. I disagree that people tend to tret their own better. On the contrary the worst helper abuse stories I have heard are from employers who are from their own community as there is a sense of guilt to complain about the employer who brought you here due to some recommendation.
Many asian families in HK hire DH from their home countries be it Malaysian/Thai/Indian/PH/Indonesian. So your theory of the POOR COUNTRY being SPONGED on for low end labour does not hold true. One of the largest exports of countries like Ph/India is MANPOWER. The shipping industry is full of professionals from the PH at all levels on a global basis. At the same time places like DUBAI rely on the 95% expats to run the place of which 90% are of INDIAN/BANGLADESHI origin. Does not mean that they are importing labour from a POOR country as a 100mill USD Indian family is quite common in Dubai. As a percentage they may be a lot less than those on the min wage but it counters the argument of a country being sidelined. Come to think of it 40% of the world population today is from Russia/China/India. With an ageing population worldwide, it will be hard to avoid one of these 3 countries as a source of labour/manpower in the years to come.
I do not feel HK Govt has a restriction on any country for a DH visa. If you can find a US citizen to work as a DH for USD 400/month, by all means go ahead and sponsor them.
Before the EU came into being even countries like the UK imported cheap labour from places like POLAND for agricultural work. They never had the same rights as say an immigrant coming to work as a Doctor or a stockbroker from another NAtion.
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vak
13 yrs ago
Incidentally we have family friends in the UK who had a mainland DH for 35 years. She brought up their 4 kids who are parents themsleves now. It was nice to see the family personally come to HK and then go to China to resettle her (bought her a house) a few years ago as a Thank you as she was ready to retire. However she found the life in CHina very unsettling and returned back to stay with the family as a retired / extended family member in the UK. So some stories do have HAPPY ENDINGS.
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