Posted by
expatinhk
15 yrs ago
I've got an issue with a car I bought just over 12 months ago.
I purchased it from a dealer at the Hong Kong Trade and Exhibition Centre at Kowloon Bay. The milage was 31,000km and the car was in great condition (and still is). Since then I've only driven about 3000km, but recently I had an engine annunciator light illuminate on the instrument panel and I thought it was time for a service (even though it wasn't due).
After taking it to Zung Fu, they advised me the last recorded milage on their records showed it at 70,500km as at 18/06/09.... Since I purchased it on the 20/07/09, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out that someone has re-wound the odometer.
The quote for repairs at Zung Fu is approximately $50,000, so with this in mind I approached the company who I bought the car from and asked for an explanation. Of course they said that they had no part in rewinding the odometer, but have now offered to pay partially for the repairs provided I pay approximately $17,000 towards the total.
I said that my first option is for them to purchase the car back... I simply want what I paid for (a car with 30,000km on the odometer). What am I going to do if I want to resell the car? Either lie to the potential buyer about the millage, or tell them the truth and take a huge loss.
I did write to the complaints and advice unit at the consumer council and this is their reply:
"It will be better to get some supporting document, such as report concerning the situation you pointed out, from Zung Fu. When you get the report, you may contact ..... Motors Limited for clarification and settlement. If no settlement is reached, then you may report the case to police and submit the case to court for compensation".
I'm quite prepared to take this as far as I have to, and going to court is fine with me, however I would like to get some advice as to what sort of chance I have of winning, the time frame it may take and the cost (assuming I have a good case then all costs would be born by the defendants).
Thanks very much for any help given.
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190k
15 yrs ago
Can you prove the .....Motors Company wound teh meter back or did they buy it in that condition from the previous owner. You will have to get the previous owners to state what the reading was when he sold it. If he did it he won't admit it and so on. Difficult to PROVE who done it without a frank admission.
Importent tip for anyone buying a new car check with the main supplier for milage before purchase
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forgive me if this doesn't help but the regrettable situation you described is unfortunately commonplace in hong kong - especially considering the ease in adjusting odometers (be it mechanical or digital) and the stigma placed on any vehicle in hong kong with 50K mileage or more...
please don't quote me but i have heard from a number of people in the auto-trade that adjusting mileage is not necessarily illegal. moreover, in your case, there are probably two issues - who adjusted the mileage and misrepresentation at time of purchase. i realise both are technically wrong but they have different ramifications - be it legal or not. 190K also has a fair point and it may have been the previous owner that did the deed which will naturally be very difficult to follow up.
sorry this happened to you.
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190k
15 yrs ago
It may be a case of deception if they made a point of the low milage in the sale. Threaten them with going to the Police and newspapers to smear their name and demand they take the car back with a full refund.
A .... Motors in the same building duped a friend a few year ago and he got a full refund when threatened with Police. In that case they had the wrong engine in a Porsche and this was only discovered when parts were ordered and didn't fit. Be really careful with second hand dealers guys there are a lot of lemons out there. It is also common here to get two cars, one rear end damage and the other front end damage to cut them in half and weld them together to make one imaculate looking car. Get in a big accident and you will be a gonner.
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from what I know it is not an offence to rewind the meters in a car in Hk.
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I believe it to be very common in HK for the cars to be clocked. The fact that the government here are pretty useless and have no consumer protection laws does not help. Its all based on free market and buy as seen. In the Uk the logbook shows who owned it before and the mileage at selling time
I have heard stories of people taking cars in to dealers with 70k on the clock and then a friend of theirs goes in a few days later and sees the same car with half the mileage on it.
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its quite simple with a slight change to the software as maintained by the transport department. if the govt had the will to clean up the mess. In Australia the MOT/Roadworthy records the mileage and it goes into a system. If the new roadworthy mileage is less than the previous one a red flag is raised. Simple. Any genuine selelr just needs to show the most recent roadworthy certificate to prove the mileage. Obviously it will only apply to vehicles over 6 yrs old.
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1) Replace the speedo/odo in the dash with a new unit starting at "0"
2) Get the dealer to stamp the maintenance book stating the speedo/odo has been replaced and note a realistic mileage for the car.
3) Get compensation from the dealer for replacement of speedo/odo and dinished value for increased mileage on the vehicle.
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My two cents....don't get it serviced at Zung Fu. Take it to HP Cars in chai wan and your bill will easily be halved at least.
The are a good bunch of people and have taken care of my car.
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I do not know what yr car problem is but, Zung Fu is only for people who have corporate accounts or are forced to go there for warranty reasons . Unfortunately HK car dealers have exclusivity for each brand and can charge whatever they wish under the guise of high rents. A typical scheduled service in HK is 4 to 5 times the price for a similar service in the UK.
If the air con does not work it could be a 2 dollar O ring but they will quote you for a compressor, hoses, and estimate a 20000 bill.
We were quoted 27000 for replacing a windscreen (damaged due to a stone chip) for a Benz SL 320 1994 model from ZF. We got the same from PYRAMID UNIVERSAL who offered us an aftermarket one for 2500 and BRAND NEW ORIGINAL for 5000. Add 1200 for fitting from a shop in Kowloon bay.
I am all for them charging a bit more for compensating rentals in HK but 4-6 times the UK prices is a joke. And then they mostly never have parts on hand and everything is on backorder.
MANY garages have the LAUNCH system for diagnostics on Mercs, Bms and Audi's. These systems are v methodical and spot on for diagnostics.
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i must concur with blueyeboy - zung fu estimates and charges are a joke. i have never owned a mercedes benz but the stories i have heard from numerous friends have put me off buying one cause i'm not too keen on a dealer that grossly over-charges - lots of good garages around but sometimes you can't avoid using a dealer if you have quite a specific problem... i know a great guy in kowloon bay who services our 3 family cars - at less than half the cost i have been quoted by supposed dealers with no corners cut and i know cars very well (i also work on them myself).
moreover, most dealers in hk are only interested in cars under warranty or up to say 5-6 years old (have a look around most dealer garages and you won't find any model beyond the previous release).
if anyone wants the details of the chap i use, please send me a message...
as for expatinhk, i hope your issue can be resolved...
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The cost of service from Zung Fu is not the point (all genuine franchised dealers are expensive and there are always cheaper alternatives).
The name of the previous owner should be on the registration document. Approach them openly and ask them to confirm the milage (Kms) when they sold the car. If they confirm higher than the dealer sold to you than he is implicitly guilty of clocking which is fraud. The value of a vehicle is directly linked to milage. Do not accept compensation take your cash back in full repayment and shop elsewhere. Go to court is necessary to get full refund
N.B. this is a common tripwire for car dealers they cannot so easily re-set the service CPU brain as they can the oddometer.
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on the contrary, the estimate from zung fu is part of the problem as it represents the claim amount for the repair charges - the scale of which can determine whether someone is willing to help and settle or not (zung fu is also beyond expensive - even the likes of DCH and BMW Concessionaires believe so and I know some of their staff). moreover, even if the previous owner can be spoken to, its one persons word against another and on top of that, it is not currently illegal to adjust an odometer. I doubt the previous owner would want to get involved but of course its worth a try...
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Are you serious, how can it not be illegal to alter the odometer and sell the vehicle saying it has half the mileage it actually has? Surely there has to be some criminal aspect in this - selling car with false records, odometer fraud etc?
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am sure there is some legislation against false descriptions but as shared by many on this thread, odometer adjusting itself is sadly not illegal. you may also wish to note that there was approximately one month between zung fu's last service and the date of your purchase and anything could have happened during that time - it could be possible that the previous owner (before the seller) adjusted the mileage in the hopes of obtaining a better price... this would then remove some liability from the seller in kowloon bay...
as mentioned before, most regrettable that this happened to you but if you really wish to pursue the matter, seek legal advice from a professional...
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190k
15 yrs ago
If the car was clocked deliberately to get a better selling price then it is a deception upon sale based on the false representation that the odo shows the ture number of miles the car has done. So yes just by clocking the odo is not an offence but once there is a false representaion made then there is a deception or attempted deception. The problem is proving it. The company could have clocked the car but not told the sales man etc there are a thousand variables.
If ....Motors were willing to help with the ZF costs then they know something was wrong so ask for a full refund and give them the car back. You may take a hit on insurance piad, transfer fee etc but you can tarnsfer the insurance to your next car. I have been driving here for over 30 years and have never bought a car from a used dealer. For the last 15 years I only bought new, just can't trust anyone here for second hand cars.
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Our consumer protection laws for car owners are not as stringent as say in UK, USA or Australia. Its down to the percentage of population (I believe only 4-5% of HK people own cars). 300000 pvt cars I guess. If we had a CARFAX type reporting here things would be more transparent.
Not all used car dealers are crooks. I have bought used cars in the past where dealers I knew have told me they can not verify the authenticity of the mileage but recommend the car as a cheap and cheerfull runaround car. If I am spending 30-40K its not been an issue. For a 1st time buyer it may be a shocker.
In terms of cars with serious accidents the best way to check is not go to AA or an inspection agency as their reports always have some qualifier that they are not liable for unseen defects. best way is to pay the 1000 dollars and apply for a car loan even if you do not intend to take it. If the vehicle was in a v v serious accident the insurance co's will have blacklisted it and its on a centrallised system so no one will finance it.
A fair deal is when a dealer introduces the buyer and seller and makes a fixed commission like a property agent. What dealers do here is try to get the best of both worlds. They do not give you any money till the car is sold. They take blank papers from you with no price on it. They end up making between 25 to 50% in commissions.
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Miles are taken off the odometer for one simple reason and that is to get a higher selling price. By doing so the dealer is acting in a fraudulent manner. Fraud is illegal.
By offering you a discount on repairs, it would seem to me that they are accepting some (if not all) of the blame. If they had no part in it why the discount? I would push the issue!! You have been duped my friend..... Threaten action and see what happens. Don't be the victim.
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Unfortunately, clocking cars is rife in HK. Every car in every showroom in HK is sold with 39,0000km on the clock. Whilst Zung Fu will mention the discrepancy they won't give you the specific data, eg service records, in writing as this breaks the Data Protection law. You can try to track down the owner off the old registration document (garages rarely change the document in their name so you can often see the previous owners details). If it's a company it's very is easy to track the last owner down via a search at Companies House. Alas, most of the garages selling cars are shelf companies with zero assets to go after. Do a search at Company House for the car dealer...but you will find that C...... Motors HK Ltd is a separate company from C.... Motors Ltd who have a large showroom in Gloucester Rd and sell parallel imports. Consequently, threatening to go to the press over the issues won't get you far I'm afraid. In my case I took them to court over a car which was green and resprayed silver - as my wife is a litigation lawyer it cost me nothing. Eventually, after many months the dealer bought the car back from me. I suggest this is your best option. If you can find the previous owner and get them to allow you to access their records in Zung Fu, and you can find out they sold the car directly to C..... Motors and not another dealer then you have enough to prove C.... Motors clocked it which let's face it they obviously did / do. Normally, most dealers in HK have a 3 month warranty deal for repairs. Does yours? Unfortunately, it usually covers cost of parts only. There are some excellent ex Zung Fu independent guys around town eg Eric Hung, Sing Fai Motors in San Ko Pong. I'd get an estimate from him 1st.
If the car looks great and is repairable with or without C... Motors assistance then perhaps drive it for a few years and trade in to the same dealer but this time cheach the mileage with Zung Fu before you place the deposit down. The downside is dealing with the same robbing gist again!
Good luck.
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Hi All. You'll see from my username that I too have been a victim of odometer fraud in HK. All from Vin's Motors (Dragon Road, North Point). The original Toyoto service centre told me that the mileage was not consistent with their previous reports and they told me that it is indeed rife in HK. Real shame when I called Tommy at Vin's to complain - he reacted rather negatively and of course, wouldn't compensate me for his fraud. I'm investigating my options - have a lawyer friend based here who should be able to help. Will keep you posted.
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HI Vin's Motors is a fraud, sorry to hear about your experience and please do keep us posted on how you go. We are currently dealing with the police who seem slack and terribly slow. After months of investigating they told us the old owner claims now the car was in major car accident and that's why the odometer was changed. Of course the owner told us initially there was no odometer change ever and the car was sold as completely accident free. Zung Fu also says they can't see how the car was in a major accident based on their assesment. But police say we need to get in writing that there was no accident (!!). Shouldn't the old owner prove there was an accident? It all seems quite rediculous. Will also keep everyone posted how we progress, I guess next thing will be taking them to court.
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HI Vin's Motors is a fraud, sorry to hear about your experience and please do keep us posted on how you go. We are currently dealing with the police who seem slack and terribly slow. After months of investigating they told us the old owner claims now the car was in major car accident and that's why the odometer was changed. Of course the owner told us initially there was no odometer change ever and the car was sold as completely accident free. Zung Fu also says they can't see how the car was in a major accident based on their assesment. But police say we need to get in writing that there was no accident (!!). Shouldn't the old owner prove there was an accident? It all seems quite rediculous. Will also keep everyone posted how we progress, I guess next thing will be taking them to court.
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[UPDATE] Please note that fee quotes stated in historic postings may be out-of-date.
We suggest
1. you should get the supporting documents from the repair workshop as evidence that the odometer was rewound.
2. make enquiries about common business practice, whether it is of normal standard of care for dealers to ensure the accuracy of the odometer
3. refer back to the buying contract, and see whether there is a clause on the mileage of the car. If so, then it is very possible to rescind the contract based on misrepresentation.
4. refer back to the contract, to see if there is any warranty clauses on refund or maintenance.
5. file the case to police, since this could be an act of commercial fraud.
Weir & Associates
Solicitors & Notaries
16th Floor Tak Shing House
20 Des Voeux Road Central
Central
Hong Kong
Tel : 2526-1767
Fax : 2868-3568
Email : WeirLaw@weirandassociates.com
www.weirandassociates.com/weirlaw
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We are very sorry to hear about your experience. We have encountered a similar experience 2 months ago, and have had very little help from the police and the consumer council.
Any advice would be really appreciated. My email id is fizznjazz@yahoo.com
My number is 9124-3762
Thanks
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