Belcher's vs Bel-air: what you like/ dislike about staying there?

We have just moved to Hong Kong with our 2 boys and 1 more to come in November. We've narrowed down to 2 places we liked: Belcher's and Bel-Air.


We generally like both to similar extent but have a few reservations about each of them and would like to hear about your comments:


Belcher's: we really like the convenience of the location with lots of eateries, supermarket, Victoria Belchers etc around, however,

1. There seems to be no/very limited utilities area for drying clothes? How do residents there cope with this - dryer?

2.The apartments seemed to have leakages after the typhoon on Fri - has it been a problem?


Bel-air:

1. With only Wise Kids and ParknShop within the vicinity, has it caused any major inconvenience?


General Question:

Carpark space: will it be difficult to live with 3 kids without a car for the weekends in HK?


Thanks in advance for your inputs!

We've recently moved out of the Belchers after living there for nearly a year and a half. We didn't have a car whilst there but there is parking under the building at what seems to be a very high price - circa $4,000/month, I recall. The mall underneath Belchers has a decent sized Welcome a small flower shop, laundrettes and clothing shops for small people. A nice bakers on the ground floor, McDs, a couple of Chinese restaurants and an OK Chinese variant Thai restaurant. HSBC as well. Kennedy Town below the Belchers is very Chinese but if you wander further West, you find a few expat bars/bistros.


The comute into Central was pretty straightforward - there's a big bus and minibus stop on the main road and we generally reckoned on 30/40 mins from our flat to a Central coffee shop. Less at weekends. When it's raining and the buses full, it's not a nice wait. Cabs are easy to get at weekends but not during the week in rush hour - though you could always book them. A cab from LKF to the Belchers was around $40.


We found our flat very hot in the summer and very cold in the winter. We were on the top floor which may have exacerbated matters. Clothes got dried on a clothes horse inside the flat. We never had any leaks. Being on the top floor was also a drag when waiting for lifts - a minor niggle in the beginning but it grows....


The flat itself was nice enough but the kitchen tiny and poorly laid out - this may be a flat specific thing.


The Belchers also has excellent swimming/sporting facilities that got used a bit in the beginning but not in the last 12 months! But that's us being lazy.


Overall, we're delighted to have moved out to the countryside (Sai Kung area) for a bigger place, a much more pleasant comute, 'fresh' air, outdoors space etc.

Thanks Dive bum for the very useful info. We took a walk around Belcher's and it's exactly what you described. it's interesting about the commuting as you'll never know till you'v stayed in there.


Interestingly, can I ask if you were staying at 63H - cos' that is the unit that is being offered to us!

I've sent you a PM.

I pass the Belchers each day on my way to Central.


On an express bus it is no more than a 10-15 min. bus ride to Central. On a non-express bus it takes a bit more like 15-20 minutes. There are bad days of course when everything goes wrong (road construction, unusually heavy traffic, rain, etc.) and only then does it take possibly 25-30 minutes. You could probably walk to Central in 40-45 minutes.


BTW, there is an express bus that passes Belchers (30X) which takes exactly 20 minutes from Bel Air to Central. This is a very regular bus, leaving Cyberport every 20 minutes.

Hi, I have lived in Bel-Air Ph 3 for more than 2 years and am now living in Belcher's (just moved in 2 weeks ago).

Bel-Air Pros

1. Quiet

2. Better layout (all rooms are squares)

3. Better facilites, swimming pool and gym are free for use.

4. Since there are only 2 or 3 units per floor, better air ciculation.

5. Utility room can be used as a store room

6. love the pool with the slide in ph. 1.

Cons:

1. Extremely few restaurants nearby.

2. You can sometimes smell the gasoline from the fishing boats (i lived in 20th fl)

3. High transportation expense. cab to central approximately 70-80 one way

cab to causeway bay 70 also, to the peak it's about 100.

4. the traffic in aberdeen tunnel is very bad at times. which you would need to take to go to causeway bay

5. shuttle bus to shun tak doesnt run whole day anymore. plus it is to shun tak not to central.


Belcher's Pros

1. Surprisingly quiet (maybe coz I'm not facing pokfulam rd)

2. Very convenient (to central or to buy food or to the wet market)

3. Really easy to get a cab.


Cons

1. Living room is not square (my husband got this place when I was out of town for the summer, therefore had no say). Therefore, watching TV becomes weird although I think lots of HKG apartments are like this.

2. You have to pay for everything like swimming, gym and they dont provide you a towel. If you need your helper to watch over the kids/take care of them while swimming, you have to pay for that too even if they dont swim. If you want them to get into the pool with your kids, you have to pay a guest fee (not a resident fee).


If you were to ask me if I would like to live in Bel-Air again, I'd say no just because of the transportation problem but then if you dont really go to central often and your kids study in the southside (repulse bay, etc...) then maybe it's fine. BTW, if you were to choose which phase in Bel-Air, go for ph 2 or 1. Views, and facilities are just much better). When choosing a place, dont forget to check out your neighbors (especially at night) if they smoke or not. Coz we had 2 neighbors that smoked in bel-air. One is the one below us and we can really smell it because of the open balcony and the other one is the next door neighbor. Of course this can happen wherever you live.


Hope this helps.

alpha235


Can't believe Bel Air management would make you pay for your helper watching over your kids, that is disgraceful and I would have never paid. As for charging her guest rates for using the pool, that is another thing I would have refused to pay. If the helper is living in your home, they should be entitled to use the facilities if the employer permits her, it is not down to the management to dictate what privileges your maid gets. I know this is common in HK but just wait and see what would happen to them if they did that to any maid I employed.


The management companies need to be put in their place, they are working for us not us for them.

christian_moore


It's not Bel-Air who is making us pay. It's Belcher's. it's for free in Bel-Air. I agree with you about the sillyness of the arrangement. If I knew of these rules before we leased here (Belcher's), I would have thought twice about this place.

Re my post earlier today about life in the Belcher's, the Asiaexpat staff have already kindly taken it upon themselves to delete it once; I hope they won't do it again! I am sending the same information to the Shun Tak main office. For the asiaexpat forum moderators' information, whoever they are, I have owned a flat in the Belcher's since 2005 and what I write about is a mere FRACTION of the troublesome things that go on there. COntact me confidentially and I shall be happy to verify my ownership details and show you the pile of correspondence occasioned by the problems I describe below. Your forum members deserve the unvarnished truth, not whitewash!


My original post:

To anyone looking to live at the Belcher's, I suggest you think twice.


While it looks good at first sight, the Club facilities and quality of management are definitely below par. Just a couple of examples, which I could extend to several pages:


Pool Hygiene:

Swimmers routinely spit in pool drain and no employee of the Belcher's will do anything about it; I complained once to the govt dept that grants their pool license, but all the ‘Club’ got was a lecture on why spitting is bad. Bilingual no spitting signs that were there in the past have vanished. Running and diving, also strictly prohibited, occur all the time;

Pool Costs:

A swim during the school holidays costs HKD 30 per person! in the summer I'm swimming at a HKU pool instead--a bit less convenient, but cleaner and more orderly. Accompanying persons have to pay—everybody has to pay for facilities that are run down, moldy and utterly inadequate to the needs of the swimming population, which includes large numbers of children with maids in tow. The overcrowding and chaos in both the pools and the changing room are sometimes intolerable.

Pool Access:

The ‘Club’ now rents out lanes with no notice to people desiring ‘coaching’. They claim they cannot produce a lane schedule, cannot give notice that lanes will be in use and cannot post any of the above on their totally useless website. This has effectively made it impossible for me to use the pool since I refuse to swim in the chaotic play area. And I own a flat here!


I'm really sad to learn that the moderator(s) of this forum believe an honest appraisal of a management co. has to be deleted. We don't need another business front operation--we have enough of them. This should be a real forum, not a fake one.

The user pays arrangement for the swimming pool and the gym is a good thing - it keeps the management fees lower for those who don't use the facilities. People are being asked to pay for what they use rather than paying for what they don't use (or paying for other people to use the facilities). This is one reason why the management fees at Belcher's are significantly lower psf than at Bel Air. As an owner this is a very very good arrangement.


On the swimming pools, in general they gets very crowded on weekends (not surprisingly). The lane arrangements are put in place by the owners' committee not the management company and a lot of people hate them but they only apply to the indoor pool (not the outdoor one). I have never had an issue with cleanliness at the facilities.


I have always found the staff of the management company to be efficient and helpful.


Agree that the website is useless.


On the whole, Bel Air is a newer and larger estate set on a larger block of land which sells and rents at much higher prices so it should be "better" overall - in fact it would be shocking if it were otherwise.

Good point - the management fees.


How much are they (per SF) btw?


The latest launch : Mayfair by Sino, will have : $4.50 psf, Net.


It amazes me how this has escalated in HK.

An only property near where I live (without a clubhouse, but near the Muncipal Bldg), charges less than $1.50 psf, Net.


Do you really get what you pay for?

Re Belcher's issues.


It's interesting to see the replies.


The Belcher's Owner's committee's details are a deep dark secret and their regulations are bizarre, contrary in fact to the actual interests of owners. I can state that in NINE years I have owned my flat, this so-called committee has not once consulted me so I consider them totally illegitimate.


The AGM I attended a few years ago comprised a shocking display of anti-gweilo racism. I really have better things to do than sit through a racist harangue about 'foreigners' allegedly doing all sorts of terrible things. One allegation was that we want to swim in the pool!!!


As I stated above, I've decided to do my summer swimming elsewhere. I don't think the lousy pool management and the failure to deal with the spitting problem should be rewarded with my cash. As a woman, I also have to put up with the screaming children and overcrowding of the women's changing room--after a swim class there are queues for the showers. So if traineeinvestor were to turn out to be a man, I would not be surprised by his (?) relatively more favourable assessment of the facilities. You should try the girls' side some time!

One further pt re Belcher's mgmt fees:


Contrary to traineeinvestor's impression, it is NOT true that the Club user fees even begin cover its costs. The general mgmt fees ARE subsidising the Club so people who may not use the facilities are nonetheless paying for them, as they should, because the facilities add to the value of the propoerty. As an Owner for the past 9 yrs, I am well acquainted with this situation. So one should wonder why a swim costs $30--that's $120 for a family of four. Personally, I think that's pretty pricey. At some point, the public pool in Kennedy Town may start to look appealing.


Issues like water wastage, frequent replacement of the sauna(s) (I can only speak for the women's side) need to be examined, but again, our hyper-secretive Owners' Cmte is not likely to shed any light on any of these issues any time soon!


Complaining about any of this is futile.

Join the Owners committee, and you may be able to make changes


Once upon a time, where I used to live, I was the chairman, and WAS able to make some changes; though less than I had hoped

I've been staying at the Belcher's for a month now and can comment on some of its pros and cons.


Pros:

1. Apartment quality is generally good. The buildings are approximately 13 years old.

2. It is a good mix of peace and quiet yet not too hard to get to.


Cons:

1. The humidity here seems to be higher which can lead to mold problems.

2. As mentioned by quarterback, they charge for people accompanying you to the swimming pool even though they are not going to be swimming. I think an exception should have been made for kids and their accompanying supervisors. This can't be an oversight since they specifically mention that kids below 12 need to be accompanied by a supervisor. So somebody deliberately wants a kid's visit to cost more. Hmm.

3. You can't check out the equipment available in the gym without paying to use the gym first. This is just bizarre. They won't allow me to take a look. I was asked to peek in from the outside or pay for the visit.

4. The gym seems to be geared towards cardio users and is not a fully functional gym. I have seen better gyms in smaller estates. For example, there are no barbells. If you're seriously following a strength training program lack of barbells is a huge inconvenience. And of course, the personnel posted in the gym don't care very much - incredibly, I was told housewives tend to hurt themselves with barbells hence their exclusion.

5. You can't drive up to your tower, not even to drop off luggage. So you have to park your car in the parking or outside the estate and then haul your stuff on foot to your tower or take a taxi from there to your tower. I am sure the management can give some reason just like for the point above. However, my previous estate had similar capacity as Belcher's, a single vehicle entrance to the estate, allowed people to drive to their towers and yet never suffered from choked driveways or accidents. I don't even keep a car. But the fact that, on a rare day when needed, my friends cannot drive up to the tower to pick up/drop off stuff or when somebody's leg is injured - that is irritating.


It's really these small inconveniences and rules that are indicative of an uncaring management and tend to leave a bad taste in the mouth upon encounter. It is a nicely constructed estate which could be managed so much better. If you're not going to use the clubhouse, I believe you will be overpaying for for the place. If you want to use the clubhouse, the management rules will frustrate you.

As a fellow resident:


1. humidity is not good but is no worse than some other places I have lived. Also, it was a non-issue when we lived in a flat facing east

2. children have to be accompanied by an adult as a safety measure. The measure was introduced to stop non-swimming adult supervisors monopolising the lounge chairs by the pool. Given that it lowers the cost, I am in favour of this

3. sounds silly - I know several people who have checked out the gym without paying. I did myself but that was several years ago

4. agree that the gym could be better - more treadmills and a couple of extra benches for weights

5. this is a huge positive - the impracticality of allowing private cars on the main entrance would be a disaster and render the estate much less desirable as a place to live in. In any case, the issue has been raised a few times before and it has nothing whatsoever to do with management - it is the police which refused to grant a permit allowing private cars to use that entrance because of traffic control issues on Pok Fu Lam Road (permits can be obtained for weddings etc)


FWIW, we enjoy the gym, the pools and other facilities.

Cheers

There are obviously differences of opinion on how these matters should work.


I can only suggest that you JOIN the Owners committee, or at least contact someone on the owners committee, to pass on your comments