Need property advice - Old flat Renovation = Win?

In this interesting real estate climate in Hong Kong.. I've decided that instead of buying a 'new' flat that is like 500-600sqft for 3.whatever million in Kowloon.. I am sort of leaning towards buying an older flat for less and dumping money into renovations. Places I am looking at must be near MTR stations.. etc.


Most recently I looked at Waterloo 8 over near Yau Ma Tei(YMT) MTR. It is 'new'. It has a clubhouse. It's really close to the MTR. I also think it's a bit expensive at close to $6k/sqft. It has old like 'tong lau'(old flats?) directly beside it.


Since I want and expect real numbers in this thread, I'm not going to be shy, so let me break the ice. My budget is around 3-4M. The place in YMT I saw was a unit that was 616sqft but PROBABLY I'd say only about high 70's usable so down to the low 500's in terms of usage. The old 25-30+ year old flats near the area are in the $2-3k/sqft range. I'm looking at 800-1000sqft, which would land me in the high $1.x-2.5M range.


I plan to live in it. Investment or whatever isn't a major issue/priority. I'm not flipping (chow) the place for a quick profit. I just want to get the most of out of money.


I plan to redo the entire flat, from top to bottom, bathrooms, kitchens, flooring, etc. My intent is to rip out every dilapidated thing inside the flat, start from a concrete box and build up. Flat design (like drawings?) I don't feel confident that I can do entirely myself, but I know what I want from the space, I just cannot manifest it on paper. I am budgeting between $500K-750K HKD on this.


Now. Finally. Some questions. Is this a good idea? I've read a pile of horror stories in here already about contractors just doing terrible jobs, lying, cheating, whatever else you can imagine.


Is it worth it? What does $500-750k HKD even buy you in Hong Kong? Will it just look like another regular apartment? I don't need anything lavish, but I'd prefer it to look unique (dup beet). I had some quotes semi ready but I need some solid numbers so I can continue planning.


How much would a bathroom cost me? Toilet/sink/shower? How much would it cost for a toilet/sink/bathtub? Apparently roughly $20-30K for a basic IKEA bathroom? The kitchen alone I had roughly quoted from Hacker (in Happy Valley) ranging between $20K-300K but I imagine they should be more on the expensive end.


Flooring.. Tiles? Wood? I am going for a nice, clean modern look. Minimalistic almost. White tiles anyone? Roughly $20-30/sqft? More? Dark wood flooring, more expensive? Worth it? Does it rot/mold?


Destruction of walls, demolition in general, and garbage clean up fees. Reasonably priced? Let's say a wall, 10ft tall, and 5ft in length? 50sqft destroyed = ?


How long roughly would it take? Weeks? Months? Are there any laws/rules/general etiquette that one should adhere to in Hong Kong concerning your future neighbours? Can I hire somebody to stand on site and yell at lazy workers? How much would that person cost? :D


I know. I ask a lot of silly/dumb questions perhaps. I guess I'm just getting desperate and reaching out. If you do happen to take the time to read through this, and DO find it in the goodness of your heart (or boredom gets the best of you), please give me some real, solid numbers. I would prefer them from personal experience and not like your friend who's friend who's friend blah blah because you know Hong Kong, people love to exaggerate.


Thanks everyone. I look forward to anyone's help or advice.


Elsdon

You need to do some research. A lot of your questions would be answered by an afternoons walk down Lockhart Rd in Wanchai.


For sanitary fixtures, it's about $500-2500 for a toilet, $2000 for a bath, $500-1500 for a sink, $2-5000 for a vanity. Taps etc all vary, but budget say $1000 each tap set. These are low to mid range prices. It all depends on what brand you buy.


For tiles, mid range is $30-60/sqft.


Kitchen cabinets alone without the contractor masonry/plumbing/electrical work from a standard kitchen place would be between $15k-40k depending on size and finishes of course.


Appliance cost you can check at www.ecox.com.hk


The big variable though is the contractor cost. Some will quote you a big lump sum, some will itemise everything.

Ah that's good info. Lockhart Rd. in Wanchai has a lot of these like.. 'interior design' or residential construction companies? Great starting point, thanks.

Oh really? If a developer buys up the area they probably won't compensate me for my renos? Hrm.. That's an interesting case. Don't I have the trump card though? I can just refuse to move if they don't want to re-imburse me for my renos.


Yeah there's a few units I've seen in the 800-1000 mark, ranging between $2k-3k/sqft.. There's about 10 I saw alone over at gohome dot hk that housing website. Just enter a search for YMT. Most of them are right beside the MTR station pretty much, and named like blah blah Mansion.

Ah.. So that kind of sucks for me then doesn't it? They can just force me out and demolish my money I put into renos? Interesting. This isn't that government body in Hong Kong, I can't remember the name now.. like Hong Kong Renewal Council or something right? This is private developers?


That's a huge danger then because I imagine this area in Yau Ma Tei will be ripped up and redone at some point soon.. Will they at least give you a premium price to move out, or are they inhuman about it? ie. Their profit > you.

Hi elsdon,


I've sent you a pm


WKB

Thanks for your responses. I do appreciate any information I can get.


Last bump to see if I've missed any stragglers. I'd love to hear your stories, the good, the bad, the ugly? As well as pricing and your expectations if you feel comfortable with giving me that. Timeframes? etc.

Hi Elsdon,


Sent you a PM


Cheers

Hrm.. I was sort of hoping to design and doodle up the place myself, haha. I really don't know what kind of spec drawings the contractors need to do their work though. Do the designers also come in and 'manage' the workers or they just kind of come in, look at the place, give you some concept drawings and then get paid?


Yeah, I hear you.. Lighting quite important to me, so windows and views are of course important. I was planning to make use of as much natural light as I could.


I was actually looking at slate floors instead of wooden! The bathtub/shower thing is fairly inexpensive anyway compared to everything else but I was thinking of changing that for the sake of space saving.


Thanks.

Hi Elsdon,


Sent you PM

Ah nice Geraldo! More great stuff I wanted to hear. Do you by chance have any pictures or anything you could send me via pm of the place? I'm just curious what kind of stuff you guys had done..

Sounds great, I say go for it. We gutted out and renovated our flat last year.

I would add some points to those raised already:

- I would caution against making it *too* special ; you do want to have some resale value down the road, I assume.

- We got our kitchen at Hacker, price was fair based on what we shopped around for. There's German, Japanese, High-end, Mid-range, etc. I actually wanted an IKEA kitchen, and put the $ into appliances (if you google, you can see lots of +'ve IKEA kitchen cabinet reviews, mostly from US), however we could not go this route coz of the physical limitations/dimensions in our kitchen area. If Hacker quoted you $20-$300k, that is just ridiculous however! At the least, know what you don't want: we did not want the kitchen cabs to be made-in-China type, i.e constructed by our renovator, basically fabricating the same drawers that would be used in a wardrobe, for instance. Also the folks we worked with actually stated flat out that it would be better to go with a specialized kitchen cabinet supplier once we showed them pictures of what we wnated.

- We went with designers. It was worth it in the end, and you can shop around to get an estimate of the fair price. I recall about $500/sq ft is about avg. The +'ve side is, if you have a rapport with your designer, he can take your ideas and expand upon them, and vice versa (if you're so inclined). They can point out problem areas (awkward corner, not enough power points, etc) that the layman wouldn't be aware of. Also, they should project manage the contractors (including coordinating with the 3rd party kitchen team + any others) so you don't have to have the headache.

- In this environment, make sure you work out a structured payment plan, whichever route you choose! During SARS, there were lots of dodgy companies working in renovations, and you are basically left holding the bag if they disappear with your deposit! Ask for references, pictures, past jobs, etc. If they can do it for too too cheap, I would stay away.

- I had different experience with Geraldo "all the builders we have employed are happy to work to basic plans which just about anyone can draw up on squared paper": The designer produced several drawings, elevations for each room, each wall, etc. for the renovators to work against. In prior exp, we had less detailed drawings (different company of course), but even when they were seemingly detailed to you and I, never underestimate the ability of some contractor to muck it up and show you the same drawing upside down!


Good luck, and have fun!