Posted by
j-insha
17 yrs ago
By this, i meant independent girls who are careers driven and are also finanically independent...? I feel that most guys are intimidated by me the minute i present my biz card. I am career driven and am finanically indepdendent but that doesnt mean i am a loner or tough. Its hard to find a guy who accepts me and at the same time know that when i am outside the office, i am just a normal girl looking to have someone to hold and connect with. Is that so difficult to achieve?
Girls and Guys, what do you think? I welcome all insights especially from guys.
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It's quite interessant ... often some women friends argues the same around me in Paris.
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I don't think men like women who are the opposite of what you mentioned, J-insha. I am financially independent and smart woman but I find that some men take advantage of my "niceness." I kick a** in the board room but when I am out with friends or dates, I am just myself - being nice - because I don't see the need of kicking the asses of people I like. But apparently, men are bored by nice women. They see no challenge there.
Maybe men don't like 1. financially independent and strong women and 2. nice women?
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j-insha - with that post you sound desperate and the opposite of independent
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hi there, apologies for the lack of response on my part.
Thanks Justin Credible for your lengthy response - appreciate it! i am with you on the presenting of my biz card, interesting to note different perspective - and yes i will take note and refrain from doing that... :p After reading your response, i am able to see where u were coming from, and dreadfully, i go agree with some points you have mentioned abt me 'shrugging' my shoulders thinking 'so what if i have a good job'... heehee... pretty right on target there... I supposed the thing is that i am proud with the achievements i have with my job/career. And unconsciously it may have come across as those things u have mentioned. Overall, i can be 'submissive' as and when needed in a r/s, and i can alslo voice out my thoughts and opinions abt things even though it may differ from the general public views. Trust me, i have done those things u have suggested, like buying little gifts etc.
I have dated guys who if i may be blunt, does not meet my 'level' in terms of career and financial status, BUT I DONT CARE. As what i am looking for is the person himself, someone to match with on emotional level. Probably you're right, i am meeting the wrong bunch of guys - guys who are insecure. So, will try and tone down on that attitude of mine.
And to GRAEMECARTER, i am not desperate. I just have all these 'questions' in my mind cos i have been told by my good guy friends that men are generally intimidated by girls like us. As such, i want to know what everyone elses thinks.
At the end of the day, i am just like girls out there even though i may have a fantastic job etc.
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j-insha, are u shanghaiese??? just curisous!
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j-insha
I have met several women who think they intimidate men. Yet when you see them it is not the case. They are the ones who look intimidated.
I also know wome women who are over assertive. This is not attractive in either men or women.
As M Larsen said above, it is about how you carry yourself. As another man I share his view on this.
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maxis
17 yrs ago
We can find these women very boring as they often have like a dual ego/chip-on-the-shoulder sort of personality.
And that is dead boring and annoying, and really just someone you rather move away from.
I don't know whether you are local Shanghai or Xpat, but for many of us westerners, it isn't a novelty for women to be independent or have a career, it is more the norm. Yet for some people, they feel like they have elevated themselves above the rest, and that self satisfaction of "Oh, I am so good", although disguished, still drips through.
But who gives their business card to strangers?
The only people I give it to are clients and they know what I do before I hand it to them - it is for convenient passing of contact details, not as a marketing device. Besides, who wants to be called or conacted at work? Just write down your mobile number or get theirs if you want to continue contaxt.
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My opinion on "independent" women is again, pain in the ass. Honestly, Im not the least bit intimidated but in fact quite turned on by an intelligent, worldly woman who can carry a great conversation. You make more than me? Bonus, you wont cost me as much to go out with.
On the other hand if you are too independent minded, sometimes you probably come across as not really wanting to be with me. ie, you don't need me and guys don't want to feel that. We want to feel like you really want to be with us and if it starts to feel like "whatever, we can come and go and you're just fine, then we will find someone who makes us feel like we ARE important.
Talking about yr job? Im cool w that too if you inform me or have an amusing story about it but don't ramble on or try to impress me by your position or my eyes will glaze over until I catch sight of a cute beer girl headed my way or find some other escape. I mean my job usually comes up rather quickly, Im a shoe designer and I let that one right out. Usual response is in line with " Wow, that cool, I LOOOOVE shoes!" And I know they do, they're women, LOL. But then I self deprecate with something like "It beats having a real job" and move on because as mentioned above, nobody really cares what yr job is unless they want to gold dig and judge you based upon it.
And business cards are formal for business meetings etc. Everyone does pass them out in China though. I have mine on me at all times but don't give them out except if I'm offered one or need a scrap to jot something down, like my personal email etc. I quite like it when a women takes my cellphone and punches her number into it, calls herself, so we have each others no. If I am not willing for her to have my no. then my phone wont be in a location where she can easily do this. If I want to get HER digits I just ask and then hand her my phone so she can do it.
I think its important that Independent is not a euphemism for bitchy and aggressive, if its not then we usually don't mind. If it is then no wonder you're turning us off.
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I am very interested in this thread as i have had the same problems. Some independent & fabulous women seem to be successful in relationships. Can you think of people you DO get on with and study these successful assossiations ? Can you break it right down to the core to see what the base metal is ? e.g. i seem to get on well with my cousins and also younger non-related women i have known since they were teenagers.
Are we supposed to treat everyone differently ? Is it not so much about OUR OWN character , but about THEIRS . Have you tried compartmentalising your colleagues/family/friends/dates/etc ; so that you don't have to cross-reference them all the time? E.g. You wouldn't invite them all to the same dinner party ? Have you ever tried to have a date which is ALL ABOUT THE DATE and nothing else ? (Ooo ! you've got me going now ! I've just thought of someone...!)
Believe me we all have EXACTLY the same problems in London and Belfast so keep at it !
I have found that if someone upsets me ; just walk on.
hoyo : Perhaps i leave it too late to assert myself which can upset men because they get a surprise , then !
What more can i say than damn the torpeodoes , full steam ahead.
p.s. Well done everyone ! This is the most honest and interesting thead i have ever come across.
(i have been based in London )
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dressedup :
being 'nice' is probably a worse problem. How often have you thought
"Blimey! I didn't see THAT coming ! "
Then you have to assert yourself but find it may be al ittle late and someone gets a surprise they hadn't bargained for !
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"Here's the thing, successful guys aren't looking for successful females to date. No, successful guys are looking for young, attractive stunners with a knockout body and who take care of themselves."
My goodness IbuBapek, talk about generalizations! I think while trends can possibly be observed, it's not possible to make such general statements. Depends on the woman and the man involved.
I know several couples where both are successful. These people have just learned to stop competing when they are at home.
"Really the ideal mate for a successful female is probably someone that is not so professionally minded, maybe blue-collar, non-university grad, but who keeps himself in shape."
I am married to a successful woman and strangely (in your world) I have a business school degree and had a nice career. I am not "as successful" as my wife, though. That's just the way things turned out. She's more driven. ;)
No worries though, I don't feel that I need to compete with my wife. We're not in this to compete with each other.
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"Here's the thing, successful guys aren't looking for successful females to date. No, successful guys are looking for young, attractive stunners with a knockout body and who take care of themselves." - IbuBapek
So let me get this straight, if you are female and successful, then you must be plain and ugly?!?!!!. Come on dude, such sweeping statements are totally not helpful! Here's a dollar --- go buy a world view.
I am in the circle of successful females who look great. We date successful men with no chip on their shoulder and not compelled to compete with us. Besides, as many have pointed out here, surely, you have a myriad of things to do and talk about apart from your work or which car you drive or how fat was your last bonus?!?!! Why? Because "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"!... I want someone who can stimulate me physically and mentally. And the hot, good looking, intelligent, successful men that I go out with asserted that they want more of the same. I compete in the boardroom but outside that I let my hair down (and my claws hidden unless absolutely required to come out! ;) ).
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hey all, sorry for my lack of response - been travelling, and somehow i was not able to receive mail alerts informing me that theres reply to this thread..
anyways, i am exactly what Sade111 said in her post. As mentioned, i am just a girl when i am out of the office, a normal girl with her ditzy along with girly days... Sometimes, i get guys giving me their biz card, and its only 'fair and normal' that i do the same in exchange. And i realised thats when the convo starts to take a turn. and more often than not, i refused to talk abt my work with people i have just met. I rather be drinking and talking abt some other sh*te etc than work.
The thing is that given our experience, not sure abt you girls, but i tend to speak my mind on opinions and thoughts even if it means it doesnt go along with the general public (for whatever reasons, i dont know)... I do not mean speaking my mind as in being sacarstic etc, but just sharing my view on things etc. Unlike submissive girls, they tend to just go with the flow and agree with whatever was said etc... I enjoy stimulating conversations abt anything and everything under the sun, but that doesnt mean i will keep my mouth on comments or my thoughts. I can be submissive but only when the situation calls for it... :))
After a long day at work, the last thing i want do is to make any decisions or be a tough cookie etc. I am just a girl (taken from the movie 'nottingham hill') hoping to find a guy whom i will be able to connect with without him being 'intimidated or challenged'...
But when push comes to shove, you tend to just shrug your shoulders and think whatever... somehow, i do agree that hard headed macho biz man wld rather be dating a submissive girl than someone who speaks her mind.
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maxis
17 yrs ago
It seems that women who consider themselves sucessful are those who like a fight/challenge in boardroom, socialise in scenes wherein business cards are dispensed socially, feel a sort smug sense of satisfaction in considering themselves 'hard-players" in the workplace, "yet I can be feminine too, I promise!"
But really, those sort of scenesters are NOT sucessful, but are in fact losers who have bought into what they saw in US style TV programmes in their teens. "I can be it all! I am smart, sexy, feminine, caring, sassy when I want to be yet the girl next door" - what a load of absolute rot! Fantasy/fiction/insecurity.
Who at even at 1/2 prominent stage of their career really even carries business cards socially, or dispenses them socially? Tacky, tacky, tacky. Who even has space or organises the proper ones?
I know plenty of women who I consider way way way more sucessful, and don't live their life emulating tv characters, and would consider themselves a "sucessful person", without imagining that men are intimidated.
Let me tell you, when a woman boldly walks up to you and you don't show interest, it isn't because you are intimidated, or think she earns more money or whatever, you politely turn away because:
(i) you don't like her
(ii) her attitude stinks
(iii) her likes have passedin and out of those doors more times than you'd like to even imagine.
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Maxis, that's a great post. And it's so true. The women who try to act all tough are typically not the real movers and shakers.
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maxis
17 yrs ago
thanks axptguy38 for the summary - yeah that was exactly what I was trying to say!
A certain type of woman thuinks she is really such a mover and shaker, she is usually:
1. between 27 and 32 years old
2. overly fashion/accessory/celebrity aware
3. superficial
4. always and industry/social events and 1/2 cut on champagne (with elegant hot-house strawberry, of course!)
5. criticise women who are not quite as "sucessful" for having a family and "allowing men to dominate and supress" (i.e. the chicks normal guys dig!)
6. often moan about a glass ceiling
7. really either destined for middle managment in a mature and established industry, or a big fall in a more modern/contemporary (transient?) industry.
Seen them all many time before, and no doubt will again.
Have had several female freinds who have for some reason gone that way (for a period of time).They either
(i) grew out of it (with some dignity remaining),
(ii) had a 33 yr old "mid-life" and a wheel alignment,
(iii) started that "there are no decent men left" attitude (refusing to acknowledge that the guys they passed over earlier for being "too boring" or not cool enough are the ones they complain are no longer in abundence).
(iv) carried on as is in gte fantasy word, caught up in essentially a soul-less existence, and will be mutton dressed as lamb in middle management.
Trust me, in well established and mature professions (i.e. ones you can't possibly be the King Pin or even have a large reputation in before you are mid thirties - we all know what we are talking about here), these sort of women are not seen so often. The women there are RESPECTED for their abilities and talent - period.
So,
know we are no intimidated, we DON'T WANT WOMEN WHO MARKET THEMSEVES AS BEING INDEPENDENT/SUCESSFUL. They are BORING AND GENERIC, and prevalent in Hong Kong (and other International-type cities).
We know the are as SHALLOW and FICKLE as each other, are a pain to date and even worse to be in a relationship with.
Drop this "look at me, I am oh so independent attitude" ladies if you have it - the soone rthe better unless you want to ultimately be just some guys mistress, because that is the most time some guy would eventually want to spend with such a woman.
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Very insightful maxis.
There is also a corollary. Truly successful women are not intimidating to the most men. I think part of being successful is the ability to be humble and not too aloof.
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maxis
17 yrs ago
perhaps hoyo, but they are gong nowhere susbstantial fast.
Actually, they can be very easy to play and use in the workplace(if you are so inclined) and you can make them work hard to do the grunt work.
But I won't back or promote someone without true talent or at least the ability to us their brain and come up with original/unique ideas or work.
Hard workers are generic, Smart, effective and efficient workers are much more rare - and threating to boss :)
You need lots of the former and just a few of the latter
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"Hence the common denominator - it's not about whether you are "successful" or not, but really, how good you look as a woman."
"At the same time, these same men would run away from the majority of the women working at Goldman, not because they are smart, driven or successful, but purely because they lacked the "hotness" factor.
Call it shallow, immature, whatever negative superlatives you want to throw at it. You are probably right, but that's not going to change the reality and inherent truth in what I'm saying."
I don't know where to begin on this one. Are you seriously saying that most men think like this?
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788
17 yrs ago
j-insha, run away from men who say they find independent women boring, you don't want 'em. Don't be arrogant (humility in anyone successful is always appreciated) or give out cards- which by now you don't already. Keep your faculties functioning well for weeding out sticky, insecure and superficial men. Believe you me, there are enough men who are turned on by independent, strong, passionate women. Have patience, you will find them/ they will find you! Goodluck!
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788 -
the best advice yet ,( for twas getting a little worried as to where this diatribe as going .... ) .
If it works , break it down to the core and develop that ;
if it 's not working ; try it , experiment with it , but in the end, reject it.
If you are true to yourself , surely what you will be left with is your truth. If it is what you want ..you will be happy ; or
sometimes we tend to only pay attention to those who abuse us , waste time trying to please ; for example always trying to please your bad press .. a waste of time when we should be pleasing our good press, our good friends.) What kind of relationship did you have with your parents ..were they supportive ? doesn't sound like it .
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maxis
17 yrs ago
CALRIFYING POINT
Independent women are NOT boring
Women who bang on about being "Independent" are BORING.
The ones who bang on about being independent are trying to say "look at me! I am different to all those other girl! I am so unique!", and are actually implying that wowen not like them are leaches.
In many countries, being independent is more the norm for women, and in thise places by saying you are independent or holding out as being so, makes you look like a complete pretender indeed.
Unless you grow up in an area when woman are leaches or the men a complete dominators, then you won't even consider yourself differnet. In some places, you'd be considered unique, intriguing, fascinating if you WERENT independent!
Its like this:
"Hi, it's your pleasure to meet me, my name is Suzie, and I am independent"
"er, hello, my name is Bob, what do you mean? Is that like how you vote? Or you work in a non-franchise real estate agency? Or you breath unassisted without any respirator/filtration device? Sorry, or you have not as yet married? Not following you Suzie"
'No! you chauvanistic ignorant fool! I am a modern woman who doesn't need a man to finance me, because unlike those other loser chicks you have ever dated Bobby-boy, I can afford to pay for myself! And men are intimidated by me, so don't feel too bad, because so many guys like you have failed before you, and not even noticed how distuinguished I am from the others, and many will ail in the future,as I intimidat them so much!"
"Ok Suzie, you are so independent, buy me another one of these, fetch yourself a cab and go home independently of me - I'd hate to shatter you illusion otherwise!."
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juji
17 yrs ago
I have to say, as a woman (independant one) I cringe sometimes when I see the way some career woman interact with men in a social situation. Its almost like they are trying to seal a deal at work or like they are when they are going into a business meeting. I know that sometimes its a little difficult to switch off after a stressful day at work, I know some issues play on your mind. But when I see women talk about intimate details of their work (trying to tell everyone how important they are in their work constructed heirachy) I see how they are just plain boring. The sad fact is, some career woman have forgotten how to flirt, laugh, let go and just have fun when socialising with men.
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Swoop
16 yrs ago
I am in a relationship right now where the woman is "independent" and I love her for that. She is capable both financially and in decision making. She's emotionally strong and very good at doing everything in life.
However, there is one aspect of this "independence" that bothers me. Whenever I do a task, she will find fault or corrective measures for it regardless of how well it is done or not. Even before a task is done, she will correct me or others because she knows others will not do it as well as her. [Even if her method is inefficient or bad]. She does this to show leadership and initiative at all times. She is always in full control; never allowing other's mistakes to ruin her happiness or life. When someone else does something of their own initiative or leadership, she searches for fault and how it fails to meet her high standards. Her values and standards, ways of doing things are yours as well, otherwise you are wrong (and obviously, she is right).
But her reaction when told by others, including myself, that her manner is very offending at times, she brings up the issue that it's not her, but "you" or "you all" that are the problem-- you can't do things well, so you fear the independent woman, a woman like herself.
This competitiveness is almost like an automatic action learned from years of work, parents and schooling that makes her compete to be "right" at all times, even when there is nothing to be gained by it. But when given the opportunity to improve herself, she will never review her own actions, intentions or ability. She will be absolutely right and the best in her eyes, even if she makes a mistake. She excuses her own mistakes very easily, but harps on other's mistakes constantly, however mundane.
She structures life so that she will almost always be right, shunning things that could provide risk to her pride of being "independent" and "perfect."
It is this aspect that I feel most Mainland Chinese men find it difficult to marry or date the "independent" woman because there can't be two fragile male egos in one family or relationship. Often, these independent women, must find a foreigner who is much more liberal to the woman being the "male" ego in the relationship.
I once asked a very important question of my "independent" woman... "tell me a time when you were wrong, or did something wrong in life that you regret and wish you could change or have done better."
Her answer, "I have never done anything wrong." Of course, her family, sibling, or others have made mistakes, but never her. Then the big stab through the heart comment she made next was: "If I make a mistake, then it will be because of our relationship if you fail to fulfill your duty to me."
Now, you may laugh or cringe, but I am not making any of these words up. But you can tell, she's absolutely strong, and will not show weakness or need... no vulnerability. It's amazing and inspiring, but also a bit tiresome.
Anyone else ever experience this with an "independent" Chinese new age woman?
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Swoop
16 yrs ago
I am in a relationship right now where the woman is "independent" and I love her for that. She is capable both financially and in decision making. She's emotionally strong and very good at doing everything in life.
However, there is one aspect of this "independence" that bothers me. Whenever I do a task, she will find fault or corrective measures for it regardless of how well it is done or not. Even before a task is done, she will correct me or others because she knows others will not do it as well as her. [Even if her method is inefficient or bad]. She does this to show leadership and initiative at all times. She is always in full control; never allowing other's mistakes to ruin her happiness or life. When someone else does something of their own initiative or leadership, she searches for fault and how it fails to meet her high standards. Her values and standards, ways of doing things are yours as well, otherwise you are wrong (and obviously, she is right).
But her reaction when told by others, including myself, that her manner is very offending at times, she brings up the issue that it's not her, but "you" or "you all" that are the problem-- you can't do things well, so you fear the independent woman, a woman like herself.
This competitiveness is almost like an automatic action learned from years of work, parents and schooling that makes her compete to be "right" at all times, even when there is nothing to be gained by it. But when given the opportunity to improve herself, she will never review her own actions, intentions or ability. She will be absolutely right and the best in her eyes, even if she makes a mistake. She excuses her own mistakes very easily, but harps on other's mistakes constantly, however mundane.
She structures life so that she will almost always be right, shunning things that could provide risk to her pride of being "independent" and "perfect."
It is this aspect that I feel most Mainland Chinese men find it difficult to marry or date the "independent" woman because there can't be two fragile male egos in one family or relationship. Often, these independent women, must find a foreigner who is much more liberal to the woman being the "male" ego in the relationship.
I once asked a very important question of my "independent" woman... "tell me a time when you were wrong, or did something wrong in life that you regret and wish you could change or have done better."
Her answer, "I have never done anything wrong." Of course, her family, sibling, or others have made mistakes, but never her. Then the big stab through the heart comment she made next was: "If I make a mistake, then it will be because of our relationship if you fail to fulfill your duty to me."
Now, you may laugh or cringe, but I am not making any of these words up. But you can tell, she's absolutely strong, and will not show weakness or need... no vulnerability. It's amazing and inspiring, but also a bit tiresome.
Anyone else ever experience this with an "independent" Chinese new age woman?
--
btw-- it has nothing to do with money or status in the world. I have and still make 10 times more than she does, but I never mention that to her.
But she will bring up that her CEO makes 10 times more than I do, and that he's 2 years younger than I am and that's embarrassing. When asking her, "how much do you make in relation to the CEO?" Her answer, "you are the man, you are required to be better, and you are not. I am a woman with disadvantages in our society."
I paid for a large home for us, pay all the bills and expenses for anything, travel, entertainment, family, etc. And yet, it is a competition, with her "winning" because of relative measures. But I have seen this in other relationships as well with "independent" women of friends. Not to this degree, but in subtle ways.
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Sorry, Swoop are you married to this woman? How does the comparison discussion come up and how regularly? It sounds almost emasculating.
I don't understand why someone who supposedly loves you would place such pressure on you, particularly when you sound fairly successful as it is. It's probably my lack of cultural understanding but shouldn't the relationship be more of a team -supportive, loving.
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maxis
16 yrs ago
Sorry Swoop, but that girl as typical and sounds like a materialistic self-centred loser.
- comparing your salary and trying to make you feel lousy - who needs enemies.
1. Dump her
2. Forget her
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I am an expat married to a succesful woman who is a perfectionist. I have learned to fight back.
I tell her that I am not a member of staff, so stop treating me like one.
If she criticises too much I tell to 'get used to everthing being wrong, I have'. This injects some humour, and she backs off.
We argue, but if she is wrong she appologises. She is a natural born leader, this is tempered by kindness, and concern for others. Maybe that is why she is such a good leader.
---------
Swoop,
your situation sounds different. My wife never competes with me or expects me to compete with others.
It might be that your woman is running away from something. Poverty, critical parents, or someting else. Unless you can effect change, you must ask yourself if you can live like this.
If you are not yet married, I would not advise you go there. It sounds like your feelings are not reciprocated.
You say she is strong. From what you have said she sounds ruthless. Amitious people are never content. And some will use others, including spouses, as stepping stones. These are the people who will 'trade up' (dump you and get someone more 'succesful') if it suits them.
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I am speaking from experience with my current GF in Hong Kong. She is very independent as is happy being single or in a relationship. My only issue with this is feeling needed. The reason I say this is in past generations a girl would stay with her man as he could support her and look after her and in turn this made the man feel wanted and needed. In turn this creates a feeling of commitment as the girl has no choice as she could not afford to move out.
I am not saying that feeling is right just that is what I see from the past. However now as a girl with have her own group of friends and gets support from them, they have there own money and apartment it is hard for a man to feel needed and wanted. With independent girls they can and do survive even without a man in there life.
I am having issues with this at the moment and trying to change the way I think to deal with it. I know my GF loves me but there is no need for me in her life and it is hard to see that she wants me in it. So I don't feel safe and secure.
Any advice is welcome.
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In HK, a lot of the white collar workers of HK descent are women. They are making more than their blue collar brothers in many respects. In the West that's not the case presently. If it changes.. you'll get more ballsy women and when, if that becomes the norm, boys will adapt to that. I don't think girls can go any other way than being self supportive from here on in. You could choose to..but your chances of ending up in status obscurity are getting higher and higher. On the otherside, the competition will be tougher on the boys' side and I think it will come down to talents and not gender.
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Hi ian,
you said.
"I know my GF loves me but there is no need for me in her life and it is hard to see that she wants me in it."
If it is true that she doesn't need you, then you are there for only one reason. SHE WANTS YOU.
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Ha Ha! MAXIS you are hysterical!!! You have just described so so so many girls I know... and you have also described myself (to a certain point).
That said...I agree with what everyone is saying about the girls who spend so much of their time in the boardroom they have forgotten how to flirt, how to be feminine and they don't realise that they are not so subtly competing with men in everything that they do. They have competitive natures which drives them at work, but also they compete with other girls - hence the 'I must dress and accessorise and stay on top of fashion' more than the next girl. Then, they turn their competitive nature towards men... seen it hundreds of times!!
I even have a girlfriend that recites her work emails to me (read: bores me to tears while I sit politely smiling) so she can illuminate the fact that she has a job that uses lots of jargon.. must be high powered!
It all stems from some deep insecurity and hence the girl goes home alone after buying maxis a drink and then decides to get up the next morning and do it all again.
It is a bizarre thing that happens - I think particularly in HK.. These girls need to realise they don't have to be the best or be perfect to have a guy love them and perhaps one will.
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